On May 21 2014 03:50 purakushi wrote: Sure, it may work, but it's a silly solution to a problem stemmed from a terrible unit. Blizzard and their bandaid "fixes"...
As I said before, unit being "terrible" is just an opinion and nothing else, there are many that like Swarm Hosts or at least aggressive Swarm Host play.
I'm fine with swarm hosts being used aggressively, but Blizzard needs to change the unit itself to promote aggressiveness. Also, it should be strategic and at least somewhat mechanical, aggressive play and not just leaving the units there to endlessly attack with free units with spores/queens/vipers around them.
Doing that from 1-2 bases in first 10 minutes?
Wanna agressive play? Here it is - infestors and swarm hosts with hydra at drop defence
On May 21 2014 03:59 Existor wrote: Just nerf SH and buff Nydus, make it so SH can become a "jumping" siege unit. Add something new -_-
+1 on buffing nydus. I've always wanted nyduses to cost less when built on creep. It works well with overlord creep spew. Also, whenever nyduses are built on creep, they do not globally announce their presence.
On May 21 2014 03:59 Existor wrote: Just nerf SH and buff Nydus, make it so SH can become a "jumping" siege unit. Add something new -_-
Yeah because this would not at all get shut down in 5 seconds flat at the pro level. If I wanted to rely on gimmicks, I'd play protoss.
+1 on buffing nydus. I've always wanted nyduses to cost less when built on creep. It works well with overlord creep spew. Also, whenever nyduses are built on creep, they do not globally announce their presence.
Nah, just make it so rumbling Nydus Worm will not be visible on the minimap and/or make Nydus Worm be affected by ground armory upgrades
On May 21 2014 03:59 Existor wrote: Just nerf SH and buff Nydus, make it so SH can become a "jumping" siege unit. Add something new -_-
Yeah because this would not at all get shut down in 5 seconds flat at the pro level. If I wanted to rely on gimmicks, I'd play protoss.
+1 on buffing nydus. I've always wanted nyduses to cost less when built on creep. It works well with overlord creep spew. Also, whenever nyduses are built on creep, they do not globally announce their presence.
Nah, just make it so rumbling Nydus Worm will not be visible on the minimap and/or make Nydus Worm be affected by ground armory upgrades
For start, give Nydus more HP, it is utterly stupid and pathetic that Nydus is countered by pulling 10 workers.
After having tweaked values in the editor, I discovered that you can actually recreate the Lurker effect by keeping the Swarm Host with tehse changes:
- Locust duration reduced to roughly 3-4 seconds - Cooldown reduced to around 4-5 seconds - Swarm host mobility increased - Locust DPS increased by around 150% (2.5 times) - The spawn time of Locust eggs set to 0. - Burrow/unburrow duration reduced
This reduces the effective range of the Locust to around 10 which means Siege tanks can outrange them. On the other hand, they are are really good at holding postions. I would almost argue that they feel better than Lurkers, because they are even more microintensive since you can constnatly unburrow --> reposition --> move them --> reburrow.
That sounds like a really cool idea, would you mind recording a short video and show us all what that might look like?
Hmm, I don't actually know how to record videos (?)
But I made a mod that rechanges a lot of the more flawed units of SC2, and overall tries to add in more micro and multitasking to the game. That Swarm Host change is included there. You can try the mod by searching "Sc2re" on the arcade. Unit Tester is only up on EU under "Resc2".
It is worth noting that on this mod, Collosus, Tempest, Sentry and Immortals are different and I spent a lot of time creating the right interaction feeling for the Swarm Host given how those units function (Marine and Maurauder are unchanged on my mod though). Something I forgot to mention: The Locusts on my mod aren't "supposed" to be killed as I gave them lower prioritizing + more HP. This way Locusts works more like a slow projectile-based attack that you can micro (than a free-unit).
Colosus in Sc2 are kinda decent vs Swarm Hosts due to it its splash vs Locusts. But that's not really so useful here. Instead on my mod, it's the Immortal that you need vs Swarm Hosts (similar to how you need Dragoons vs Lurkers in BW). But the Immortal I have in this mod actually has 8 range, more responsive and faster (lower DPS, and no hardened shield to compensate). Colossus is quite different as well.
This basically results in the Immortal "only" having a 1-2 range disadvantage against the Swarm Host. If my idea was applied to normal Sc2, the effective range of Swarm Hosts would need to be tweaked somewhat.
I love how you came up on the spot with a better idea than years of developpement of Blizzard. ^^
Oh this definitely wasn't on the spot. I spent basically days just tweaking values of the Swarm host --> Testing --> Reevalute untill I got the outcome that I believed could be fun and made it feel similar to a Lurker.
Over time, I had different types of versions of the Swarm Host that, while they solved the stalemale/turtly issues with the unit, never really felt fun. So I began thinking about what made the Lurker fun, and tried to adapt those concepts into the Swarm Host.
I don't understand why you even post this with the intention of "the lurker effect" If blizzard would like to have this "lurker effect", they would just add the lurker.
Well people love the Lurker but dislikes the Swarm Host, so I believe it is a good idea to be inspired by succesful BW units that people like. That ofc doesn't imply making the Swarm Host 100% like the Lurker, but rather making zerg able to hold positions cost-effectively without inducing extremely turtly games.
In order to do that, the areas of which Locusts can cover must be significantly reduced (and then Locusts them selves can become stronger). I think it's quite clear that Blizard thought that the extended duration of Locusts would be able to make them better at harassing, however I believe that you can incentivize harass usage by a combo of lower burrow/unburrow time and faster movement speed (off creep).
I think this is too much. Imo Frenzy should only be active on mondays, wednesdays and fridays. Perhaps even sundays, but in order to decide that, we need more balance testing.
On May 21 2014 05:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Perfect for combating the SH problem.
Still..I had hoped there'd be changes for ZvZ overall. Roaches are still pretty good..
Alot of stuff is just wrong with ZvZ in HotS. There is a complete lack of tech play and power units, devolving everything into a numbers game of mirroring economy and compositions. It's just unpleasant to play against Zerg without walls in any matchup and then add to that that you have to expand at the speed of a zerg against a zerg that could pump out 50zerglings any moment.
Cloud Kingdom ZvZ in WoL was the best. All the roach/infestor posturing up and down the chokes with all the runbies and 2base infestor expands against 2base muta into infestor. God damn it, WoL ZvZ + Vipers + buffed tunneling claws could have been so amazing...
Can you change so your Swarm Hosts will spawn 3 locusts instead of two? Of course nerf them to compensate
What would that accomplish?
Swarmy effect and in some manner the idea about less damage against heavily armored units.
2x15 = 30 minus 6x2 armor (2 shots from 2 locusts to ultralisk) = average 18 damage 3x11 = 33 minus 6x3 armor (3 shots from 3 locusts to ultralisk) = average 15 damage
The idea to give more swarmy effect for swarm hosts
Can you change so your Swarm Hosts will spawn 3 locusts instead of two? Of course nerf them to compensate
What would that accomplish?
Swarmy effect and in some manner the idea about less damage against heavily armored units.
2x15 = 30 minus 6x2 armor (2 shots from 2 locusts to ultralisk) = average 18 damage 3x11 = 33 minus 6x3 armor (3 shots from 3 locusts to ultralisk) = average 15 damage
The idea to give more swarmy effect for swarm hosts
That would also contribute to locust lasting longer vs aoe damage, right? because there are more, there's a bigger area to cover, it would be cool to see and it would be more swarmy while nerfing them a little vs ultras and other melee massive units (so yeah, just ultras).
I like the idea of making broodlords immune to abduct, but does that mean that I can't abduct my own ultras into the opponent's base? I mean, I don't have the APM to do it, but seeing Catz looked fun. Anyway, it's cool to see that Blizzard is actually listening to feedback instead of just beating around the bush.
Wtf ppl want more of a swarmy effect? the entire crap is that it takes forever to kill them. Units that overkill like stalkers would just take that much longer to kill them. Unless you want to heavily nerf their HP so that now you're ever more reliant on AOE against them than already.
On May 21 2014 15:14 FabledIntegral wrote: Wtf ppl want more of a swarmy effect? the entire crap is that it takes forever to kill them. Units that overkill like stalkers would just take that much longer to kill them. Unless you want to heavily nerf their HP so that now you're ever more reliant on AOE against them than already.
Because there are already strong unlimited weapons such like seeker missiles, widow mines, thor splash anti-air, hellbats, siege tanks, ghost emps (aoe anti-energy, but sieges already can snipe festors), and protoss already have strong aerial units so nothing is wrong here.
On May 21 2014 04:59 VArsovskiSC wrote: Alright - next change = make Mothership gain Frenzy (though that name Frenzy should get changed to smoething less "zergy" I guess)
@Ramiz = actually instead of more HP - Nydus could just get +1 armor actually
Or give zergs a building armor upgrade researched at the hive.
EPT
