EPTNext Balance Patch the 28th February. - Page 8
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Lain1911
United States17 Posts
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:39 sandman1678 wrote: Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere. However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve. I don't think Protoss has been struggling since the MSC got "figured out." If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge. A couple of the absolute best Terran players can capitalize on engagements against Protoss pros sometimes, but most of the time though, and ladder data actually does back this up, Protoss is destroying Terran at every level of the game except for Bronze Also...you're kinda cheeky for a new guy. | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
Much appreciated. EMP + Mines can be viable now. | ||
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:52 Lunareste wrote: If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge. So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm? Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP? | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:56 Pontius Pirate wrote: So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm? Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP? Templar shut down ravens to such an enormous degree that they're a complete waste of time to bother making. | ||
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saintforsale
18 Posts
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed. Colossus every game just like wings? What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now. No whine just honestly courious. | ||
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jakethesnake
Canada4948 Posts
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:56 Pontius Pirate wrote: So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm? Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP? I think the answer is more subtle than that: if Terran can pressure Protoss more in the early and mid game to force less greed (which is why Photon Overcharge is overpowered, Protoss doesn't need more than a couple of units while they gaining huge advantages in tech, and then gateway explosion to meatshield their tech units) the Protoss cannot go into the midgame with 2-3 tech paths completed coupled with huge upgrades. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:52 Lunareste wrote: It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses I don't think you know what a fact is. That's not a fact. That's like, your opinion, man. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2888 Posts
On February 26 2014 04:57 tili wrote: Weeee, I am loving the hydra buff - they're damage wasn't quite enough to justify how insanely squishy/slow they can be compared to roaches  .Also - I think Zergs now have tools to legitimately avoid mass SH, or try to. a 10% attack speed increase in hydras is a tool to legitimately avoid using sh? Whaaaat? Still can't engage protoss deathball man... | ||
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sandman1678
10 Posts
[QUOTE]On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: Widow mine already 1 shot an oracle. The entire point of this is to add instability to twilight openers so as to reduce the upside of blink all-ins, thereby increasing the upsides of robo/stargate play. You don't need to put a blind cannon up, as it's not exactly hard to spot a factory opening. Don't want to lose your probes? Protoss players can utilize mechanics to move probes and lose only 1, and terrans can utilize mechanics to make sure they don't lose the drop to stalkers or lose the mines before they burrow. Lol at it stopping warp prisms. [/QUOTE] 1. warp prism is 100/100 a widow mine right now does 125 +35 to shields, - zealot when drops or warped in clump making it a juicy target for a widow mine and gives time to reposition WM - Zealots are easily kited....right into a WM - HTs are 40-40 that mean the spash damage will exactly kill them no 2. Supposed to add instability to Twilight openings and increase the effectiveness of robo/stargate.....LOl - WM DECREASE the effectiveness of stargate openings since phoenixes clump and oracles get 1 shotted by WMs and and since they will be used more now makes oracles EVEN less effective. and no one spend money on an oracle just for an early game detector. - Robo openings will be effective just as much as twilight openings since your first obs won't be out in time for the earliest mine drops and even after you get an obs it won't be in your probe line it will be on the map. Furthermore, Robo openings are light on gateway units because all your money is going towards getting colossi out fast making it even harder to shut down an early drop. Lastly we got back to the way things were at the begging of Hots and last part of WOL with Robo openings turtling at the begging trying desperately to hold of mid game pushes and drop play until we can get a 3rd up 3. Mine drops are not easy to scout if executed by a Terran with half a brain, only the lowest IQ of terran players will leave their factory near their ramp or not wall off the top of their ramp and allow a probe scout in. Most terrans will have a reaper or marine out to clear a 9 probe scout and will be off preventing a 13 probe scout from seeing anything that isn't close to the ramp. This means you have to wait for a obs scout which will arrive to late and even if it does arrive before the mine drop it will still be out of position. 4. I never said you HAD to put cannons in Fact I said only the WORST toss player would do something that stupid by putting cannons down that early. 5. Lastly this does nothing to effect a twilight opening since early WM drops will leave you light on units to defend this and WMs can be detonated with good blink micro without taking damage. So what I meant by instability is the risk it adds to Terran players that try to use this against a Twilight opening. They will either have to do large amounts of damage or straight up die since they will be low on rax's and units between the 7-9min window when blink all-ins hit. | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:56 Pontius Pirate wrote: If they are going this way, they might as well give thors, BCs, tanks and seeker missiles + shield damage. This +shields damage is little strange, but it was in BW too. Shields took full damage regardless of unit type.So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm? Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP? | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:00 forsooth wrote: Templar shut down ravens to such an enormous degree that they're a complete waste of time to bother making. That's like saying that Ghosts counter Templar so they're not worth making. Everything counters something. It comes down to your skill at using it, your positioning, and your ability to read what your opponent is building and react in a measured way. Blanket statements like yours are not useful. | ||
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote: All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now? Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed. Colossus every game just like wings? What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now. No whine just honestly courious. I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC. You can still scout and poke, you jsut cannot see the entire enemy army from a silly range. I doubt much will change in PvT aside blink all ins being slightly weaker and battles being a little more challanging due to less vision. But then you still have Observers.. i dont think Hydras are the end to everything in PvZ aswell, though i dont know much about it. Attack rate increased by about 10% is quite nice but most of the timings hit before Hydras or before a lot of Hydras are out dont they? Its not an insane DPS increase. Might be wrong on this one though.. Edit: How the WidowMine change will work out will be interesting to see. | ||
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Lunareste
United States3596 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:06 DinoMight wrote: That's like saying that Ghosts counter Templar so they're not worth making. Everything counters something. It comes down to your skill at using it, your positioning, and your ability to read what your opponent is building and react in a measured way. Blanket statements like yours are not useful. Blanket statements aren't useful, but he's correct. Ravens are decidedly less powerful than Ghosts in PVT, due to their immobility and abilities. | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:06 DinoMight wrote: That's like saying that Ghosts counter Templar so they're not worth making. Everything counters something. It comes down to your skill at using it, your positioning, and your ability to read what your opponent is building and react in a measured way. Blanket statements like yours are not useful. Don't be absurd, ghosts, have the ability to counteract templar directly and quickly with snipe and EMP. They're not remotely analogous to ravens. | ||
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:09 BlackCompany wrote: I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC. You can still scout and poke, you jsut cannot see the entire enemy army from a silly range. I doubt much will change in PvT aside blink all ins being slightly weaker and battles being a little more challanging due to less vision. But then you still have Observers.. i dont think Hydras are the end to everything in PvZ aswell, though i dont know much about it. Attack rate increased by about 10% is quite nice but most of the timings hit before Hydras or before a lot of Hydras are out dont they? Its not an insane DPS increase. Might be wrong on this one though.. Edit: How the WidowMine change will work out will be interesting to see. I think he had the wm in thought when he talked about pvt. Templar openings= Heavy zealot play, no? You have to look at nerfs for a race and buffs for others man | ||
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