Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf.
Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade?
Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X
ROFL. I go robo for all my macro games. Every SG build I have is a 2 base allin. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
Ur so weird...Phoenix is just too good of a scout/harass unit early game plus discourages Muta shennanigans.
I open with Zealot harass / Warp Prism Harass to force lots of roaches. Then I make Immortal/Sentry to take my 3rd and discourage counter-attack while continuing to WP harass. He keeps cranking out units because he thinks at any time I could attack, so he never really gets the econ that he wants going. Then I add Templar Archives and add Chargelot Archon and attack off 3 bases. If he goes Muta he only has about 6-7 before my push hits. Only thing that really stops this attack dead in its tracks is SH. But if he's doing that I usually get Blink ASAP and start pronging while getting the Colossus I need. Yeah it's not standard but it works really well for me.
With this style I'm attacking all over the place and I'm always out on the map with my stuff. MsC nerf will hurt :/
On February 26 2014 06:25 Pontius Pirate wrote: Why is "approve" and "disapprove" spelled incorrectly in each instance of those words in the OP? Am I missing a TL inside joke of some sort?
On February 26 2014 06:03 playa wrote: In BW, observers had a vision range upgrade. It shouldn't have been removed. It's more needed than ever. Whether it's an upgrade or/and the observer starts with more vision, that's all I want. Nerf everything. Just let me be able to see my impending death coming. Is that too much to ask for? I think the tempest buff was a joke. If a zerg is turtling at all, you know what would really help tempests? Actually being able to see the swarm hosts.
In BW, observers started with 9 vision and were upgraded to 11. In SC2, they start with 11 vision. Same thing with overlords, which is why each of those units had their vision upgrade removed.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
You don't know any of that. Let's see how the actual game pans out in the next 2 - 3 months.
Anything else is supposition.
And, if you are a Protoss, don't get mad. Get better.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
Widow mine already 1 shot an oracle.
The entire point of this is to add instability to twilight openers so as to reduce the upside of blink all-ins, thereby increasing the upsides of robo/stargate play.
You don't need to put a blind cannon up, as it's not exactly hard to spot a factory opening.
Don't want to lose your probes? Protoss players can utilize mechanics to move probes and lose only 1, and terrans can utilize mechanics to make sure they don't lose the drop to stalkers or lose the mines before they burrow.
I think, that MSC sight range could be reduced just to 11, just like Medivac and Ovies have. Other changes seem good. We will definitally see rise of WM drop play in PvT, but since its really easy for me to defend against WM drops, without getting any damage (besides one probe kill), i dont mind that.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
You don't know any of that. Let's see how the actual game pans out in the next 2 - 3 months.
Anything else is supposition.
And, if you are a Protoss, don't get mad. Get better.
But...getting better means I have to like, do stuff. And stuff is hard =/
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
I got bad news for you, a reasonable number of players on TL are masters and GM. I am not one of them, but there are quite a few on the site.
And no one cares about a year ago, Protoss are kinda slapping terrans around now. The patch will hopefully give ther terrans the tools to get the match up back to feeling a bit more even.
I'm okay with the changes, though. MSC nerf seems needed, though I don't really care much for the widow mine one. I guess it's nice early-game, still should have very little viability in the mid to late game. Hydralisks should just get more HP, but I guess more damage is another way of doing things....
First time I'm happy with a HotS balance patch. Overall the game will be more balanced, but I think Protoss will continue to dominate overall (just slightly less than they do now).
EPT
