After testing in the current balance test map, watching current pro level matches, gathering your feedback, and hearing from pro players, we’ve decided that another balance update is needed soon.
Currently, we’re thinking of waiting on the increase to Tempest damage vs. structures. While we believe the issue of long, drawn out Swarm Host plays in late game PvZ is still something we’d like to solve, we’re just not 100% sure if the Tempest +structure damage is the right change, and we’re discussing what might be the best change to help solve this.
We’re also going to hold off on the increase to Blink’s cooldown duration. After testing this change, we felt it might be too large a nerf to move forward with right now. We’ve also made several Protoss-related changes recently, and want to take some time to see how they’ll play out after we release this balance update.
Here are the changes that we are ready to make right now:
Widow Mine splash damage increased from 40 to 40 +40 shields We’ve seen a little confusion surrounding this change and we’d like to clarify that it does not change the Widow Mine’s single target damage. As for the splash damage, this is how it’ll work:
• Up to 1.25 radius, splash damage will increase from 40 to 40 +40 vs. shields. • From 1.25 to 1.5 radius, splash damage will increase from 20 to 20 +20 vs. shields. • From 1.5 to 1.75 radius, splash damage will increase from 10 to 10 +10 vs. shields.
Hydralisk attack delay decreased from .83 to .75 We believe this change is good for all three match ups after testing. In ZvP, it seems to make a significant difference even though it’s turning out to be not as big as we initially thought before we started testing.
Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9 After testing, this change is turning out to be quite a bit of a nerf for Protoss in terms of early scouting. It also makes the army vs. army case a bit weaker for Protoss in terms of the vision the Mothership Core provides, especially when vision is critically needed, such as during Feedback vs. EMP battles.
We feel confident about these changes, but if you have any last minute feedback otherwise, please let us know as soon as possible. Just to reiterate, we’re still looking into late game Swarm Host usage, even if there’s no change for it with this upcoming balance update.
We are targeting Friday, February 28 for this balance update, but if the date changes, we’ll make sure to let you know. We know there are several ongoing tournaments right now, but we wanted to move forward with this update as soon as possible. While there’s never a perfect time to release a new balance update, we wanted to let you know what’s changing as early as we could, and did our best to find a date that wouldn’t impact any major events on patch day. Thank you for your participation during balance testing, and we will be looking forward to hearing from everyone.
Interesting that they wont be waiting for the WCS seasons to finish, but this is very needed changes overall so not too much to be said about it.
Finally time to hit the ladder again and see if theres any fun to be had
After testing, this change is turning out to be quite a bit of a nerf for Protoss in terms of early scouting. It also makes the army vs. army case a bit weaker for Protoss in terms of the vision the Mothership Core provides, especially when vision is critically needed, such as during Feedback vs. EMP battles.
Like the MSC have ever been used with the main army in mid game battles Ghost vs HT's.
It's good that they are pushing the changes, Maru approves! It's also good that they don't do the blink nerf, that would have been too much. Overall I'm very happy with the changes!
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Really glad they ditched the tempest and blink changes for now. The other changes seems great, maybe I should start trying hydras in ZvT, I mean it shouldn't be possible to get any worse than 37% win rate anyway ;D
Bio vs Templar play is going to be so entertaining to watch, but it seems that as protosses now we need to adapt and start spreading chargelots instead of just a moving them. hydralisk buff seems ok but some strategies like heavy voidray production into late storm or blink stalker/sentry into anything would become much weaker, as well as most of the 2 base allins. MSC vision nerf was needed, the unit has way too much utility and it allows for really powerful aggro plays and defensive plays too.
On February 26 2014 04:36 EpicDemente wrote: Bio vs Templar play is going to be so entertaining to watch, but it seems that as protosses now we need to adapt and start spreading chargelots instead of just a moving them. hydralisk buff seems ok but some strategies like heavy voidray production into late storm or blink stalker/sentry into anything would become much weaker, as well as most of the 2 base allins. MSC vision nerf was needed, the unit has way too much utility and it allows for really powerful aggro plays and defensive plays too.
Well, the fact that mass void ray even works vs mass hydra kind of shows that hydras are a little too bad / void rays a little too good.
Currently, we’re thinking of waiting on the increase to Tempest damage vs. structures. While we believe the issue of long, drawn out Swarm Host plays in late game PvZ is still something we’d like to solve, we’re just not 100% sure if the Tempest +structure damage is the right change, and we’re discussing what might be the best change to help solve this.
I'm pretty sure that MSC nerf will be by far enough to let the PvT and PvZ winrates decrease sensibly. Next Weeks will show, Protoss will have to change their Earlygame Approch in terms of scouting, defending and harass.
On February 26 2014 04:36 EpicDemente wrote: Bio vs Templar play is going to be so entertaining to watch, but it seems that as protosses now we need to adapt and start spreading chargelots instead of just a moving them. hydralisk buff seems ok but some strategies like heavy voidray production into late storm or blink stalker/sentry into anything would become much weaker, as well as most of the 2 base allins. MSC vision nerf was needed, the unit has way too much utility and it allows for really powerful aggro plays and defensive plays too.
Well, the fact that mass void ray even works vs mass hydra kind of shows that hydras are a little too bad / void rays a little too good.
that's only if Zerg allows Protoss to sit back and make the critical amount of void rays, which only happens in the very late game in Korean pro matches. Hydras still destroy void rays in the early and mid game to keep the numbers low.
msc vision nerf is a no-brainer, hydraliskbuff doesn't make too much sense imo and emplike widowmine sounds funny but not too drastic of a change probably. something concerning sh is missing.
Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9 After testing, this change is turning out to be quite a bit of a nerf for Protoss in terms of early scouting. It also makes the army vs. army case a bit weaker for Protoss in terms of the vision the Mothership Core provides, especially when vision is critically needed, such as during Feedback vs. EMP battles.
In all fairness, isn't that what observers are for? Will be interesting to see how the Widow Mine change works, on paper is sounds like they're attempting to find a way to facilitate mech vs P without the need to build ghosts, will have to see how it plays out.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
Mothership Core vision decreased from 14 to 9 After testing, this change is turning out to be quite a bit of a nerf for Protoss in terms of early scouting. It also makes the army vs. army case a bit weaker for Protoss in terms of the vision the Mothership Core provides, especially when vision is critically needed, such as during Feedback vs. EMP battles.
In all fairness, isn't that what observers are for? Will be interesting to see how the Widow Mine change works, on paper is sounds like they're attempting to find a way to facilitate mech vs P without the need to build ghosts, will have to see how it plays out.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
On February 26 2014 04:36 ggofthejungle wrote: Terrans in proleague will finally rise(other than Maru TY Flash), then widow mine drops... widow mine drops... everywhere!
People bullshitting about widow mine drops...
The drops will still be worse than before the mine radius change; which happened at a time mine drops were perfectly fine. So stop bringing them up as they are still less strong than they were.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
I hope I didnt come off as against it, but yes that is the point of the nerf. Now Shutting down the all-in via sniping the MSC is a realistic possibility and not a pipe dream bnet protoss players keep telling you to smoke. As a macro toss I'm cool with that,
Nice changes. Though I do feel it should wait for the RO32 to finish. Especially as the last GSL group on Friday will likely be played with the new patch. So the players will have next to no practice.
The attack speed change is odd, because the current purpose of the hydralisk is (and has been since WOL) unclear. Users have defined it as a 'glass cannon' of sorts but the reality is that the range severely reduces the effectiveness of this attribute. With HOTS, vipers were introduced for (what I believe) was the solution to the problem through the combination of the abduct/blinding cloud abilities. Unfortunately the range and extremely low health of the viper has caused the roach/hydra/viper unit composition to become rare. Through increasing the attack speed of the hydralisk, there is no real contribution to making this unit comp more practical, other than killing those abducted units quicker than before perhaps, which was obviously not a problem. I am not sure what David Kim is intending with this...sure, you can attempt to make the hydra a better unit, but unless it fits in a composition, it is never effectively used due to its 'glass cannon' nature.
On February 26 2014 04:36 ggofthejungle wrote: Terrans in proleague will finally rise(other than Maru TY Flash), then widow mine drops... widow mine drops... everywhere!
People bullshitting about widow mine drops...
The drops will still be worse than before the mine radius change; which happened at a time mine drops were perfectly fine. So stop bringing them up as they are still less strong than they were.
drops vs toss mineral lines are actually super strong with the patch. it's an issue one can rightfully bring up. Mine drops were a great pain back when they were "perfectly fine" as you say. We will have to see how things work out eventually but you should not condescendingly dismiss it like you did.
edit: oh yes, the patch: seems reasonable. especially glad that they did not go through with the blink CB and the tempest change. just make them not abductable!
On February 26 2014 04:36 ggofthejungle wrote: Terrans in proleague will finally rise(other than Maru TY Flash), then widow mine drops... widow mine drops... everywhere!
People bullshitting about widow mine drops...
The drops will still be worse than before the mine radius change; which happened at a time mine drops were perfectly fine. So stop bringing them up as they are still less strong than they were.
They are going to be a lot more effective vs Protoss than they currently are, so I'm not sure why it matters that they are still not as good as before.
Personally with the vision range to 9 is good. When blizzard gives numbers like that they don't throw up a Dart board and where the dart lands is where they put the # to.... 9 Vision range is for a reason and personally with that vision range being nerfed PvP is going to experience PvT to a lesser degree obviously not having a PO in the bank makes things harder but this will do a lot for the match up
P.S. I DON"T WANT TO SEE 1 PROTOSS COMPLAINING HOW THIS NOW RUINS A MIRROR MATCH UP !! GOT IT ???
Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
14 - 9 seems a bit much. I was anticipating 14 - 11 consistent with air units. But, I think, this really is to finally put a strong nerf on Blink all-ins. I find this regrettable - at least because I dislike that kind of inconsistency in the game.
But, meh. Protoss will have to live with. I do hope, however, that Mothership vision is at least 11, preferably 14. Otherwise, there is even less reason to make the unit in the late game (even if Blizzard don't give the old Recall back T.T). Does anyone know if the status of the MS vision has been clarified with this patch?
Good thing they scrapped the Blink nerf and are holding off on the Tempest. Too many stones thrown into the metagame at the same time is not good for SC2 (and Blink is cool!). I am afraid of the Hydra buff, but that is my racial bias talking. A stronger Hydra is good for Z and good for SC2. P will just have to get used to it and adjust accordingly.
I am afraid of the WM change though. As a P (PvT is my worst MU), and because I dislike that kind of inconsistency with damage. But, the change is not as extensive as I feared, and may lead to a cooler PvT and better SC2. So, if it works...
Edit/ I dislike the timing on the patch though. They should at least wait until the current Code S RO32 is over.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
I really like how Dayshi used Mines in the balance test showmatch against Minigun. I can't wait to play like that on the ladder and I hope it changes the metagame in a significant way. This could really help make TvP a way better matchup
Okey when we see how the game balances itself (IEM, Proleague, WCS EU terrans win a lot of TvP) we get the patch that will lead to terran winning most of TvP then people will complain that mines allow to hold everything or about something else then we will see how players start adapting and winning PvT and then we get another patch which will start the cycle again and again. I am pretty sure that we will see terrans win WCS EU and AM and Maru making it to Ro4 or even Finals. Blizz must have waited until WCS Season 1 ends to make changes.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
Um...ok. Everyone is entitled to their really really wrong opinions, I guess.
On February 26 2014 05:08 aZealot wrote: 14 - 9 seems a bit much. I was anticipating 14 - 11 consistent with air units. But, I think, this really is to finally put a strong nerf on Blink all-ins. I find this regrettable - at least because I dislike that kind of inconsistency in the game.
I think it's ok to have less than other air units considering how early in the game this particular flying unit comes out, on top of all its other utility.
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
Um...ok. Everyone is entitled to their really really wrong opinions, I guess.
On February 26 2014 05:08 aZealot wrote: 14 - 9 seems a bit much. I was anticipating 14 - 11 consistent with air units. But, I think, this really is to finally put a strong nerf on Blink all-ins. I find this regrettable - at least because I dislike that kind of inconsistency in the game.
I think it's ok to have less than other air units considering how early in the game this particular flying unit comes out, on top of all its other utility.
Enlighten me to when an observer is useful outside of early game p vs z, when in the attack path. On a map with dead space where you couldn't make a pylon? I mean, jesus christ. You still have to make a cannon at your natural against dts when you have an observer because if anyone comes and breathes on your observer, it's history. It's beyond ridiculous how bad it is for its gas cost. It's HORRIBLE.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
using the follow command on armies isn't the only purpose observers serve... they're critical for defending drops in pvt, helpful against mutas in pvz, and always quite valuable for general scouting and map awareness. yeah i guess good players will usually see them and snipe them with marines (not sure about calling people "bad" based on their eyesight...), but you can micro observers like any other scouting unit if you multitask well. seems like a perfectly fine and sensible unit to me. if anything, i think it might be cute if they had a medivac boost style ability, or if the speed upgrade came built in, but they're a pretty fine unit. honestly haven't heard anyone complain about observers before
i've seen professional players go up to 5-10 observers in a game, do you really know something they don't?
Both Widow Mine and Hydralisk buff seem to come out of the blue similar to the roach burrow upgrade and banshee cloak upgrade change. They are the kind of changes I would like to see more frequently to encourage different playstyles, however, neither of them address the issues people have been complaining about.
I would have propably gone from 14 to 10 with the MSC vision range to go along with phoenix, void ray and oracle.
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
Yeah, they are definitely big changes (hydra a bit less so, imo). People who actually know what they are talking about realize this, I think
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
Um...ok. Everyone is entitled to their really really wrong opinions, I guess.
On February 26 2014 05:08 aZealot wrote: 14 - 9 seems a bit much. I was anticipating 14 - 11 consistent with air units. But, I think, this really is to finally put a strong nerf on Blink all-ins. I find this regrettable - at least because I dislike that kind of inconsistency in the game.
I think it's ok to have less than other air units considering how early in the game this particular flying unit comes out, on top of all its other utility.
Enlighten me to when an observer is useful outside of early game p vs z, when in the attack path. On a map with dead space where you couldn't make a pylon? I mean, jesus christ. You still have to make a cannon at your natural against dts when you have an observer because if anyone comes and breathes on your observer, it's history. It's beyond ridiculous how bad it is for its gas cost. It's HORRIBLE.
You're pretty clearly not willing to listen to another viewpoint on this so I'm not going to bother. There are plenty of reasons Observers are amazing scouting tools. I think you have been watching different pro matches than I have...
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
lol the reason a lot more people are going tanks is because the widowmine was nerfed really hard at the same time.
But yeah these changes are pretty impactful and in a good way I think
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
Well, when you calculate the area of the vision circle, it's about 41% of it's previous vision coverage, so he's actually right.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
What in the actual fuck? A perma cloaked detector is bad? Did I wake up in the twilight zone?
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
Since the total vision is in a circle, you need to use the radius squared.
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
Well, when you calculate the area of the vision circle, it's about 41% of it's previous vision coverage, so he's actually right.
Ho yes the actual area you are correct then! Sorry my bad I was just using the 9 and 14 numbers.
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
81pi/196pi is ~ 40% of the vision
granted prior you could almost see the the entire screen wherever the msc was, it only looks prominent because we took that the norm when ideally it should have never been.
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
Well, when you calculate the area of the vision circle, it's about 41% of it's previous vision coverage, so he's actually right.
Yeah, because terrans hiding their army outside their base to an blink all-in from behind is a common thing ^^
Maybe it's 60% less area but really: Protoss only uses the MSC to scout forward, not scout anything behind
EDIT:
ALSO the MSC is really only necessary in PvP i don't feel like ANY Protoss is allowed to complain about ANYTHING which belongs to the MSC I mean wtf, how on earth did you survive in WoL?!
It's not really a 60% nerf, though-- most of the directional usefulness of the vision was pretty linear. It's rare that the mothership core was used for its full 360* field of vision.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
using the follow command on armies isn't the only purpose observers serve... they're critical for defending drops in pvt, helpful against mutas in pvz, and always quite valuable for general scouting and map awareness. yeah i guess good players will usually see them and snipe them with marines (not sure about calling people "bad" based on their eyesight...), but you can micro observers like any other scouting unit if you multitask well. seems like a perfectly fine and sensible unit to me. if anything, i think it might be cute if they had a medivac boost style ability, or if the speed upgrade came built in, but they're a pretty fine unit. honestly haven't heard anyone complain about observers before
i've seen professional players go up to 5-10 observers in a game, do you really know something they don't?
Who are these players? Rain and his clones? Given that using observers largely relies on your opponent being blind (unless it's over dead space), it is in no way critical to stopping drops, when you could make pylons and have so much more gas and build time of the robo going towards units that actually kill things, and might not make you have to play so defensively in the first place.
People I play against have an overseer with their mutas. So, it only helps out once. Revelation is amazing against mutas. Maybe you can work that into your build, since, as long as you can say it helped, it must be worth it.
I would like to see the mothership cores vision (currently) go to the observer. It's the least they could do for the observer. I would trade the removal of blink for that, any day. I'd love for the observer to not be the worst unit. The stalker is already bad, so I don't care.
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
Good god, worst unit in the game? Trade for blink? What in the...?!
I love Observers. One of the best units in the game.
That said, an upgrade to Observer vision to 14 would be pretty darned cool.
It's not really a 60% nerf, though-- most of the directional usefulness of the vision was pretty linear. It's rare that the mothership core was used for its full 360* field of vision.
The vision of the Core is actually so helpful, being able to see Zerg flanks ahead of time, when Forcefield timing is such a crucial factor. Because of the Mothership Core Protoss simply had better vision than the army of Zerg or Terran.
This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
On February 26 2014 05:27 RampancyTW wrote: It's not really a 60% nerf, though-- most of the directional usefulness of the vision was pretty linear. It's rare that the mothership core was used for its full 360* field of vision.
Vision range, not vision surface area.
Still, let the Protoss whine begin! Our time has come! Let the totally unreasonable theory crafting about a patch we have not played work it's magic!
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
Welcome to the SC2 General Forums. Leave your reason at the door.
Mothership change a gigantic nerf, but a needed one tbh. I still don't like the widow mine buff, I'll have to see pros use it Hydra buff is only ok imo if it's leading to a nerf somewhere else for zerg, hopefully swarm hosts
Glad they realized the blink and tempest changes were stupid
On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote: Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now.
Observers are worthless? Wut?
Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
Um...ok. Everyone is entitled to their really really wrong opinions, I guess.
On February 26 2014 05:08 aZealot wrote: 14 - 9 seems a bit much. I was anticipating 14 - 11 consistent with air units. But, I think, this really is to finally put a strong nerf on Blink all-ins. I find this regrettable - at least because I dislike that kind of inconsistency in the game.
I think it's ok to have less than other air units considering how early in the game this particular flying unit comes out, on top of all its other utility.
I still think it too much, mate. Instead, I wish they had made TW an upgrade at Core and kept vision at 11.
The MSC has too much utility with 3 spells at start. And TW is powerful in aiding the power of Blink all-ins.
But, whatever. It's done now. If only Blizzard would listen to me (and not everyone else!).
jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely! the widowmine change can at least make the mid-lategame more interesting but the nerf of the msc-vision is by far not enough. the reason why bs-allins are imba are not rly the maps its just the msc, in wol it was much more possible to deal with bs allins. all abilities of early agression from terran like proxy marodeur rushes, marodeur helion pushes, 2 rax etc. are not possible anymore. In Wol, without the msc terran hat at least 10 effective openings, but because of the msc now we have 3 (reaper expand into 3 rax, cc first, and reaper expand into widowmine). a joke!
On February 26 2014 05:34 chillaful wrote: jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely!
Completely destroyed HotS? lol, the MsC was a godsend for a struggling and inconsistent Protoss race.
On February 26 2014 05:35 Die4Ever wrote: I would've liked hydras to get +10 hp instead of even more dps, WM might be insane against probes lol
Meh, they've always been pretty good against probes. Now you're just punished even more for bad reaction to a widow mine drop, which is fine imo
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
Never, it's never good enough! Give it another couple of months. We'll wear down that optimism and appreciation!
Edit/ I really should get back to work. I've got a lot to do too...
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
Welcome to the SC2 General Forums. Leave your reason at the door.
On February 26 2014 05:34 chillaful wrote: jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely! the widowmine change can at least make the mid-lategame more interesting but the nerf of the msc-vision is by far not enough. the reason why bs-allins are imba are not rly the maps its just the msc, in wol it was much more possible to deal with bs allins. all abilities of early agression from terran like proxy marodeur rushes, marodeur helion pushes, 2 rax etc. are not possible anymore. In Wol, without the msc terran hat at least 10 effective openings, but because of the msc now we have 3 (reaper expand into 3 rax, cc first, and reaper expand into widowmine). a joke!
All the changes seem pretty good. I actually didn't mind the blink change, but an increase to 15 was probably too much. 12 would have been fine. But still, not too bad for blizzard at least. I'm most interested in the widow mine buff and how that'll affect things.
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
Never, it's never good enough! Give it another couple of months. We'll wear down that optimism and appreciation!
Edit/ I really should get back to work. I've got a lot to do too...
The general SC2 forum is where rational thought goes to die. Excuse me, I need to write a 8000 word peice on design and positional play.
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
Welcome to the SC2 General Forums. Leave your reason at the door.
On February 26 2014 05:34 chillaful wrote: jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely! the widowmine change can at least make the mid-lategame more interesting but the nerf of the msc-vision is by far not enough. the reason why bs-allins are imba are not rly the maps its just the msc, in wol it was much more possible to deal with bs allins. all abilities of early agression from terran like proxy marodeur rushes, marodeur helion pushes, 2 rax etc. are not possible anymore. In Wol, without the msc terran hat at least 10 effective openings, but because of the msc now we have 3 (reaper expand into 3 rax, cc first, and reaper expand into widowmine). a joke!
Noted.
Quick learner, you'll do well.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
MsC is not only used for allins and Photon Overcharge... I actually never blink allin. At all.
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you. You can't do this with observers because Hydra/Overseer kills them pretty consistently.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do. Again, assuming he has observers your own Observers are not useful here.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army. Scan/Vikings kills your obs if you just leave them at the front. Therefore you need a way to judge where you will need the obs so you can keep them safe until they're needed.
So please... before this "Protoss tears" bullshit gets out of hand... do realize that this affects the entire game and not just Blink Stalker allins. It's a 60% nerf to a unit that is commonly used throughout the entire game. It's significant.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
Welcome to the SC2 General Forums. Leave your reason at the door.
On February 26 2014 05:34 chillaful wrote: jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely! the widowmine change can at least make the mid-lategame more interesting but the nerf of the msc-vision is by far not enough. the reason why bs-allins are imba are not rly the maps its just the msc, in wol it was much more possible to deal with bs allins. all abilities of early agression from terran like proxy marodeur rushes, marodeur helion pushes, 2 rax etc. are not possible anymore. In Wol, without the msc terran hat at least 10 effective openings, but because of the msc now we have 3 (reaper expand into 3 rax, cc first, and reaper expand into widowmine). a joke!
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Did WoL just not happen for you?
WOL pvp, where expanding was the biggest coin flip of tem all. Also, war of the worlds with a whirlpool in the middle.
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
We might be talking area, in which case it shrunk from 154 units to 64 units, that is it's seeing 60% less of the terrain benieth it. However this isn't that useful a way of thinking about it because, for the most acute impact of vision, it isn't general map seeing that is useful. When you have an army beneath it the job the MSC does is seeing in that-one-particular direction that you want to see, the direction you think his army is in.
There's no doubt there's been a 60% reduction in something, but it's more the scouting utility the MSC has on it's own I think.
I've never seen a unit without a circular vision range, but it might be interesting to see.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
You might want to rewatch some WoL games. Protoss needs MSC defensive abilities for stability and not just in PvP. The only thing silly about MSC is that it is a superb offensive tool and a defensive tool at the same time.
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
A good solid patch, the crazy stuff was left at the door. The changes are probably significant enough to warrant a reset of the meta, so we can evaluate the results in a month or two.
Yet,even if this works beyond expectations, it will take a long time for terran to repopulate tourneys and the ladder.
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
I can understand that some people are upset with Blizzard at times, but overall, I agree that the anit-Blizz attitude here is mostly unwarranted. A lot of people TL.net in general really like complaining, and they've managed to create a culture where hating on Blizzard and Starcraft II is the cool thing to do for all the radical hip kidz on the block, yao. A bit sad IMO, since this is supposed to be the heart of the Starcraft II community, and a lot of people here think it's cool not to like Starcraft II.
On topic: I love the patch. Even as a Terran, I'm very happy they didn't nerf the blink cooldown. Mines may be slightly too strong, but the idea of buffing them vs Protoss is great.
I feel like the +shields damage to widow mines was unnecessary, but I guess Blizzard disagrees with me. I'm kind of curious what they end up proposing for the future swarm host changes.
On February 26 2014 05:55 Ghanburighan wrote: A good solid patch, the crazy stuff was left at the door. The changes are probably significant enough to warrant a reset of the meta, so we can evaluate the results in a month or two.
Yet,even if this works beyond expectations, it will take a long time for terran to repopulate tourneys and the ladder.
Heh, I'm curious as to whether the crazy stuff was put in to 'testing' so they could put in the rest without the community going WTF-NERFSAUCE as badly. I mean, I'm pretty sure everyone that saw "blink CD to 15" went "ahhhhh.... no" including Terrans
On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote: This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
I can understand that some people are upset with Blizzard at times, but overall, I agree that the anit-Blizz attitude here is mostly unwarranted. A lot of people TL.net in general really like complaining, and they've managed to create a culture where hating on Blizzard and Starcraft II is the cool thing to do for all the radical hip kidz on the block, yao. A bit sad IMO, since this is supposed to be the heart of the Starcraft II community, and a lot of people here think it's cool not to like Starcraft II.
On topic: I love the patch. Even as a Terran, I'm very happy they didn't nerf the blink cooldown. Mines may be slightly too strong, but the idea of buffing them vs Protoss is great.
So thanks, blizz.
It's honestly not just SC2 fans. There's this weird trend of having a very vocal minority in every game community that does almost nothing but hate on the people who make the game they seemingly play a lot...it's very odd.
On February 26 2014 05:55 Ghanburighan wrote: A good solid patch, the crazy stuff was left at the door. The changes are probably significant enough to warrant a reset of the meta, so we can evaluate the results in a month or two.
Yet,even if this works beyond expectations, it will take a long time for terran to repopulate tourneys and the ladder.
Heh, I'm curious as to whether the crazy stuff was put in to 'testing' so they could put in the rest without the community going WTF-NERFSAUCE as badly. I mean, I'm pretty sure everyone that saw "blink CD to 15" went "ahhhhh.... no" including Terrans
I wouldn't be completely surprised if that wasn't at least some of the motivation. Pretty common bargaining tactic after all
On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote: I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
We might be talking area, in which case it shrunk from 154 units to 64 units, that is it's seeing 60% less of the terrain benieth it. However this isn't that useful a way of thinking about it because, for the most acute impact of vision, it isn't general map seeing that is useful. When you have an army beneath it the job the MSC does is seeing in that-one-particular direction that you want to see, the direction you think his army is in.
There's no doubt there's been a 60% reduction in something, but it's more the scouting utility the MSC has on it's own I think.
I've never seen a unit without a circular vision range, but it might be interesting to see.
Not really, not at all imo. How many times have ppl spotted stuff in the corner of their vision? Based on the general approach of a mothership core for scouting, at least 270 degrees of the circle vision will be definitely used for scouting. When controlling army, this is also the same...
We can get as math-y as we want, but I say we just all agree that it's a massive (albeit needed) nerf : P
Maybe with the WM change Terran will have more success with mech v protoss. I mean Tank / Mine / Hellion is almost the identical mid-game army Terran used vs toss in BW.
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf.
Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade?
Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
In BW, observers had a vision range upgrade. It shouldn't have been removed. It's more needed than ever. Whether it's an upgrade or/and the observer starts with more vision, that's all I want. Nerf everything. Just let me be able to see my impending death coming. Is that too much to ask for? I think the tempest buff was a joke. If a zerg is turtling at all, you know what would really help tempests? Actually being able to see the swarm hosts.
On February 26 2014 06:03 playa wrote: In BW, observers had a vision range upgrade. It shouldn't have been removed. It's more needed than ever. Whether it's an upgrade or/and the observer starts with more vision, that's all I want. Nerf everything. Just let me be able to see my impending death coming. Is that too much to ask for? I think the tempest buff was a joke. If a zerg is turtling at all, you know what would really help tempests? Actually being able to see the swarm hosts.
Oh my god this. I JUST posted this actually. Observer sight range upgrade would fix so many things and the MsC nerf would be acceptable late game I think.
You basically need Oracles in order to use Tempests against anyone who has any idea what they're doing. Change revelation so that it catches burrowed units that you had vision on and I'll be very very happy. 9 range tempests are worthless.
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf.
Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade?
Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf.
Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade?
Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X
ROFL. I go robo for all my macro games. Every SG build I have is a 2 base allin. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
On February 26 2014 05:34 chillaful wrote: jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely! the widowmine change can at least make the mid-lategame more interesting but the nerf of the msc-vision is by far not enough. the reason why bs-allins are imba are not rly the maps its just the msc, in wol it was much more possible to deal with bs allins. all abilities of early agression from terran like proxy marodeur rushes, marodeur helion pushes, 2 rax etc. are not possible anymore. In Wol, without the msc terran hat at least 10 effective openings, but because of the msc now we have 3 (reaper expand into 3 rax, cc first, and reaper expand into widowmine). a joke!
Oh, I see,it's OK as long as the Terran is the one with 10 different openings. If it's a Protoss, it's not fair and must be nerfed.
Come on, buddy, get real. Wings of Terran era ended a long time ago and isn't coming back.
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf.
Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade?
Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X
ROFL. I go robo for all my macro games. Every SG build I have is a 2 base allin. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
Ur so weird...Phoenix is just too good of a scout/harass unit early game plus discourages Muta shennanigans.
Wtf?! Terrans has a 66% winrate in code S ro32, no way they should be buffed! More seriously, I was hoping some changed in ZvP as I don't like spectating it at all. Whatever, still a good patch I guess. I hope we see more polt like double army from terrans
Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf.
Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade?
Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X
ROFL. I go robo for all my macro games. Every SG build I have is a 2 base allin. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
Ur so weird...Phoenix is just too good of a scout/harass unit early game plus discourages Muta shennanigans.
I open with Zealot harass / Warp Prism Harass to force lots of roaches. Then I make Immortal/Sentry to take my 3rd and discourage counter-attack while continuing to WP harass. He keeps cranking out units because he thinks at any time I could attack, so he never really gets the econ that he wants going. Then I add Templar Archives and add Chargelot Archon and attack off 3 bases. If he goes Muta he only has about 6-7 before my push hits. Only thing that really stops this attack dead in its tracks is SH. But if he's doing that I usually get Blink ASAP and start pronging while getting the Colossus I need. Yeah it's not standard but it works really well for me.
With this style I'm attacking all over the place and I'm always out on the map with my stuff. MsC nerf will hurt :/
On February 26 2014 06:25 Pontius Pirate wrote: Why is "approve" and "disapprove" spelled incorrectly in each instance of those words in the OP? Am I missing a TL inside joke of some sort?
On February 26 2014 06:03 playa wrote: In BW, observers had a vision range upgrade. It shouldn't have been removed. It's more needed than ever. Whether it's an upgrade or/and the observer starts with more vision, that's all I want. Nerf everything. Just let me be able to see my impending death coming. Is that too much to ask for? I think the tempest buff was a joke. If a zerg is turtling at all, you know what would really help tempests? Actually being able to see the swarm hosts.
In BW, observers started with 9 vision and were upgraded to 11. In SC2, they start with 11 vision. Same thing with overlords, which is why each of those units had their vision upgrade removed.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
You don't know any of that. Let's see how the actual game pans out in the next 2 - 3 months.
Anything else is supposition.
And, if you are a Protoss, don't get mad. Get better.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
Widow mine already 1 shot an oracle.
The entire point of this is to add instability to twilight openers so as to reduce the upside of blink all-ins, thereby increasing the upsides of robo/stargate play.
You don't need to put a blind cannon up, as it's not exactly hard to spot a factory opening.
Don't want to lose your probes? Protoss players can utilize mechanics to move probes and lose only 1, and terrans can utilize mechanics to make sure they don't lose the drop to stalkers or lose the mines before they burrow.
I think, that MSC sight range could be reduced just to 11, just like Medivac and Ovies have. Other changes seem good. We will definitally see rise of WM drop play in PvT, but since its really easy for me to defend against WM drops, without getting any damage (besides one probe kill), i dont mind that.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: Well everything else is good but the Widow Mine buff is going to break the game and not fix one thing blizz set out to change.
Things that will change: 1. Their will be a huge amount of games lost between 6-8mins to Widow Mines clearing out a hole probe line in 1 Shot. Even at a high level early Mine drops are hard to stop and react to quick enough lower level Plat and Bellow early game mine drops will be almost an auto win. Yes having an Observer out will stop this but no one has an observer out by 6min especially if you do any type of twilight opening, even Robo openings don't have one out that fast and even if its out its not in your probe line its out scouting. Furthermore, cannons are completely useless this early and only REALLY bad player put a pre-emptive cannon down in their probe lines at 5mins.
2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
Things that won't change:
1. chargelots will still be just as good/bad as they were before. Hell this might even be a buff to chargelots since they will no become essentially banelings exploding when they hit their target. Terrans players better remember the early days of Hots when whole Bio armies were wiped out by friendly fire.
2. Storms and colossi fire will out range widow mines place in front of the Terran army thus will be useless. Widow mines placed behind or in the Terran army will become a bigger threat to the terran army than the protoss army.
3. Blink all-ins will not be effected by this especially at higher levels since burried WM are visible and can be detonated with good blink micro without taking any damage.
4. Mech will still be bad since mobility is its problem not power and adding another unit that needs to be activated before it can be effective is not going to make it stronger. So now you will need to burrow your mines and siege your tanks while your being stormed and picked apart.
5. Late game Bio armies will become less mobile with widow mines which the strength of late game bio armies is their mobility. Preparing a position with widow mines is no were near as good as mulit prong attacks Polt proved this tearing through classic and rain at the latest IEM.
Conclusion:
All Blizz did is add more instability to the early game in PvT. It will come down to who can defend blink all-ins/ mine drops the best early on GREAT!!! Furthermore, Protoss is doing good because of maps and meta game not imbalanced units. If you look at the majority of last year Terran slaughtered Protosses picking them apart with high drop aggression and rolling over them with large mid game pulls. This was possible because protoss players all played the same turtling up early on massing colossi and trying to get up to 3 bases before doing anything. Blizz then encouraged a more aggro play style with faster warp prism. Protoss players adjusted and started using more early aggro opening twilight into templar and Terran wasn't prepared.
Early Protoss aggression wasn't common in the old PvT meta so it caught alot of Terran builds off guard. Furthermore, Templar archives holds off scv pulls and Drop play far better than colossi openings do. Then add in maps that ARE imbalanced along with a meta game that is still adjusting and you get a terran slump. The Terran meta game NEEDS to change, to many pro terran's open the same every game just as they have for along time now, and they still try to make scv pulls and large mid game pushes work against 2 base templar openings which they are not supposed to work against. You look at someone like Polt WHO has adjusted his game plan and you find a Terran that tore through rain and Classic and almost beet Hero. Polt has no problem shutting down Blink openings and does great in the late and mid games. Polt uses the mobility of his army and attacks multiple locations picking off nexi and key tech structures and then getting out. The key part is he doesn't over commit nor is he to eager to win with a big push he just keeps doing damage until he strangle his opponent to death.
You don't know any of that. Let's see how the actual game pans out in the next 2 - 3 months.
Anything else is supposition.
And, if you are a Protoss, don't get mad. Get better.
But...getting better means I have to like, do stuff. And stuff is hard =/
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
I got bad news for you, a reasonable number of players on TL are masters and GM. I am not one of them, but there are quite a few on the site.
And no one cares about a year ago, Protoss are kinda slapping terrans around now. The patch will hopefully give ther terrans the tools to get the match up back to feeling a bit more even.
I'm okay with the changes, though. MSC nerf seems needed, though I don't really care much for the widow mine one. I guess it's nice early-game, still should have very little viability in the mid to late game. Hydralisks should just get more HP, but I guess more damage is another way of doing things....
First time I'm happy with a HotS balance patch. Overall the game will be more balanced, but I think Protoss will continue to dominate overall (just slightly less than they do now).
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
I don't think Protoss has been struggling since the MSC got "figured out."
If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge.
A couple of the absolute best Terran players can capitalize on engagements against Protoss pros sometimes, but most of the time though, and ladder data actually does back this up, Protoss is destroying Terran at every level of the game except for Bronze
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge.
So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm?
Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP?
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge.
So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm?
Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP?
Templar shut down ravens to such an enormous degree that they're a complete waste of time to bother making.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge.
So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm?
Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP?
I think the answer is more subtle than that: if Terran can pressure Protoss more in the early and mid game to force less greed (which is why Photon Overcharge is overpowered, Protoss doesn't need more than a couple of units while they gaining huge advantages in tech, and then gateway explosion to meatshield their tech units) the Protoss cannot go into the midgame with 2-3 tech paths completed coupled with huge upgrades.
On February 26 2014 06:52 Lunareste wrote: It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses
I don't think you know what a fact is. That's not a fact. That's like, your opinion, man.
On February 26 2014 04:57 tili wrote: Weeee, I am loving the hydra buff - they're damage wasn't quite enough to justify how insanely squishy/slow they can be compared to roaches .
Also - I think Zergs now have tools to legitimately avoid mass SH, or try to.
a 10% attack speed increase in hydras is a tool to legitimately avoid using sh? Whaaaat? Still can't engage protoss deathball man...
[QUOTE]On February 26 2014 06:31 B-rye88 wrote: [QUOTE]On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote:
Widow mine already 1 shot an oracle.
The entire point of this is to add instability to twilight openers so as to reduce the upside of blink all-ins, thereby increasing the upsides of robo/stargate play.
You don't need to put a blind cannon up, as it's not exactly hard to spot a factory opening.
Don't want to lose your probes? Protoss players can utilize mechanics to move probes and lose only 1, and terrans can utilize mechanics to make sure they don't lose the drop to stalkers or lose the mines before they burrow.
Lol at it stopping warp prisms. [/QUOTE]
1. warp prism is 100/100 a widow mine right now does 125 +35 to shields, - zealot when drops or warped in clump making it a juicy target for a widow mine and gives time to reposition WM - Zealots are easily kited....right into a WM - HTs are 40-40 that mean the spash damage will exactly kill them no 2. Supposed to add instability to Twilight openings and increase the effectiveness of robo/stargate.....LOl - WM DECREASE the effectiveness of stargate openings since phoenixes clump and oracles get 1 shotted by WMs and and since they will be used more now makes oracles EVEN less effective. and no one spend money on an oracle just for an early game detector. - Robo openings will be effective just as much as twilight openings since your first obs won't be out in time for the earliest mine drops and even after you get an obs it won't be in your probe line it will be on the map. Furthermore, Robo openings are light on gateway units because all your money is going towards getting colossi out fast making it even harder to shut down an early drop. Lastly we got back to the way things were at the begging of Hots and last part of WOL with Robo openings turtling at the begging trying desperately to hold of mid game pushes and drop play until we can get a 3rd up 3. Mine drops are not easy to scout if executed by a Terran with half a brain, only the lowest IQ of terran players will leave their factory near their ramp or not wall off the top of their ramp and allow a probe scout in. Most terrans will have a reaper or marine out to clear a 9 probe scout and will be off preventing a 13 probe scout from seeing anything that isn't close to the ramp. This means you have to wait for a obs scout which will arrive to late and even if it does arrive before the mine drop it will still be out of position. 4. I never said you HAD to put cannons in Fact I said only the WORST toss player would do something that stupid by putting cannons down that early. 5. Lastly this does nothing to effect a twilight opening since early WM drops will leave you light on units to defend this and WMs can be detonated with good blink micro without taking damage. So what I meant by instability is the risk it adds to Terran players that try to use this against a Twilight opening. They will either have to do large amounts of damage or straight up die since they will be low on rax's and units between the 7-9min window when blink all-ins hit.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge.
So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm?
Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP?
If they are going this way, they might as well give thors, BCs, tanks and seeker missiles + shield damage. This +shields damage is little strange, but it was in BW too. Shields took full damage regardless of unit type.
On February 26 2014 07:00 forsooth wrote: Templar shut down ravens to such an enormous degree that they're a complete waste of time to bother making.
That's like saying that Ghosts counter Templar so they're not worth making.
Everything counters something. It comes down to your skill at using it, your positioning, and your ability to read what your opponent is building and react in a measured way. Blanket statements like yours are not useful.
On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote: All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now?
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed.
Colossus every game just like wings?
What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now.
No whine just honestly courious.
I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC. You can still scout and poke, you jsut cannot see the entire enemy army from a silly range. I doubt much will change in PvT aside blink all ins being slightly weaker and battles being a little more challanging due to less vision. But then you still have Observers..
i dont think Hydras are the end to everything in PvZ aswell, though i dont know much about it. Attack rate increased by about 10% is quite nice but most of the timings hit before Hydras or before a lot of Hydras are out dont they? Its not an insane DPS increase. Might be wrong on this one though..
Edit: How the WidowMine change will work out will be interesting to see.
On February 26 2014 07:00 forsooth wrote: Templar shut down ravens to such an enormous degree that they're a complete waste of time to bother making.
That's like saying that Ghosts counter Templar so they're not worth making.
Everything counters something. It comes down to your skill at using it, your positioning, and your ability to read what your opponent is building and react in a measured way. Blanket statements like yours are not useful.
Blanket statements aren't useful, but he's correct.
Ravens are decidedly less powerful than Ghosts in PVT, due to their immobility and abilities.
On February 26 2014 07:00 forsooth wrote: Templar shut down ravens to such an enormous degree that they're a complete waste of time to bother making.
That's like saying that Ghosts counter Templar so they're not worth making.
Everything counters something. It comes down to your skill at using it, your positioning, and your ability to read what your opponent is building and react in a measured way. Blanket statements like yours are not useful.
Don't be absurd, ghosts, have the ability to counteract templar directly and quickly with snipe and EMP. They're not remotely analogous to ravens.
On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote: All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now?
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed.
Colossus every game just like wings?
What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now.
No whine just honestly courious.
I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC. You can still scout and poke, you jsut cannot see the entire enemy army from a silly range. I doubt much will change in PvT aside blink all ins being slightly weaker and battles being a little more challanging due to less vision. But then you still have Observers..
i dont think Hydras are the end to everything in PvZ aswell, though i dont know much about it. Attack rate increased by about 10% is quite nice but most of the timings hit before Hydras or before a lot of Hydras are out dont they? Its not an insane DPS increase. Might be wrong on this one though..
Edit: How the WidowMine change will work out will be interesting to see.
I think he had the wm in thought when he talked about pvt. Templar openings= Heavy zealot play, no?
You have to look at nerfs for a race and buffs for others man
I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC.
The Balance test showmatches for one seemed to clearly indicate that opening Templar-Chargelot has become unviable against mines. Likewise my own tests with it (doesn´t say much though).
The Templar style however evolved against SCV Pulls, which demolish Colossi openings which are also very weak against drops.
On February 26 2014 07:00 forsooth wrote: Templar shut down ravens to such an enormous degree that they're a complete waste of time to bother making.
That's like saying that Ghosts counter Templar so they're not worth making.
Everything counters something. It comes down to your skill at using it, your positioning, and your ability to read what your opponent is building and react in a measured way. Blanket statements like yours are not useful.
Don't be absurd, ghosts, have the ability to counteract templar directly and quickly with snipe and EMP. They're not remotely analogous to ravens.
No.
Ghost have 2 purposes; Massive burst damage vs the main army Minimizing Storm Damage taken (taxing harrassment via nukes)
Ravens have no synergy with the bio army whatsoever (slow/expensive/not expendable/expensive infrastructure/require support/vulnerable when moving over the map), they're just expensive Feedback targets (Undroppable Turrets; PDD which has no targets, HSM which requires toss to really pay no attention AT ALL). Whereas the Ghost is at least very threatening to the Protoss.
I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC.
The Balance test showmatches for one seemed to clearly indicate that opening Templar-Chargelot has become unviable against mines. Likewise my own tests with it (doesn´t say much though).
The Templar style however evolved against SCV Pulls, which demolish Colossi openings which are also very weak against drops.
So what do?
Give it time and maybe people figure the timings out again? You can't call up the showmatches for anything other than showcasing the adjustments; nobody has played with them enough to determine if something now is OP.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
I don't think Protoss has been struggling since the MSC got "figured out."
If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge.
A couple of the absolute best Terran players can capitalize on engagements against Protoss pros sometimes, but most of the time though, and ladder data actually does back this up, Protoss is destroying Terran at every level of the game except for Bronze
Also...you're kinda cheeky for a new guy.
1. I didn't say they were struggling late in the season just at the begging and once they figured out how to use the MC they got better. However, before the MC timing attacks were a huge issure.
2. Protoss having an advantage outside of 10min is a HUGE opinion statement NO WHERE NEAR a fact. Win percentage is a fact personal perceived advantageous are not.
3. Protoss cheap defenses structures? 150m for a photon cannon makes it the most expensive in the game. Furthermore, it has a slow rate of attack and only does 20dmg. The only advantage it has is it can shoot both air and ground. In reality Terran have the cheapest defense structures in bunkers and Turrets, which a bunker can be salvaged for a refund and turrets are arguably the best anti-air structure in the game.
4. As for Protoss's perceived advantageous: Mech actually has the highest damage out put of any army while Bio is far more mobile when used right than any Terran army. Furthermore as it comes down to options Protoss has only 1 real army option its just they have 2 ways of getting to the end game composition, you either open templar or colossi. However, either of these left without the other for to long can be hard countered. Lasty alot of Terran players try and go toe to toe with a end game protoss army and lose because they are using their army incorrectly. The terrans late game army strength is the ablity to defend a location with a Planetary along with a few units and repair while being out on the map dropping another area while pushing into another. Basically forcing the Protoss to make a choice base race a terran or fall back and try to chase down a faster army.
5.Again what happens to you, me, or any other on the ladder does not factor into balance we are not good enough or skilled enough which is why we lose. We forget that their is no fail proof strategy, that we need to scout and also understand what were scouting, we continuously underestimate dismiss how severe small micro mistakes can be in a battle, and will try and make unit compositions work that shouldn't or require more skill than we possess to make work work.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
Well lets go back to the first 3 seasons of WCS last year even with the MSC Protoss was struggling as a whole at the pro level. Before that their was a huge amount of Both pro and non pro losses in the PvT match-up to just simple 8-10min all ins. Furthermore, No one really cares about how bad YOU struggled against Protoss or if at a certain ladder level Terrans struggled as a whole. Play bellow GM maybe masters can't really be used as an example of balance or imbalance the players simply are not good enough nor is their knowledge of the game. The best way to look for balance or imbalance is in pro matches. However, on the rare occasion you can look at the ladder as a whole from Gold-GM and if you see a certain discrepancy like the one i was talking about before were Terran had a huge win percentage when it came to 8-12min timing attacks against protoss and this also reflected at a pro level then you have an imbalance somewhere.
However, I can't stand people that site their ladder experience as proof of balance or imbalance because i can guarantee you the odds are you lost because of your skill level and lack of understanding of the game not because of imbalance. Furthermore, people that quit or threaten to quit because of supposed balances issues are children they lack the maturity to lose and to also admit that their skill level was not up to par and they need to improve.
If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge.
So basically, Terran lategame needs a bit of a buff, yet not a buff that will discourage Terrans from attempting to harass to enter a more favorable lategame position in TvP. Would this buff necessarily have to occur within bio compositions themselves, or would a more simplified transition into a lategame composition be a better patch route in the longterm?
Also, ideally the change would not involve the Raven, as it tends to lead to monstrously boring lategames already against Zerg. Or would High Templar be enough of a factor in preventing excessive Ravens for sky terran to not be hideously stupid in TvP?
I think the answer is more subtle than that: if Terran can pressure Protoss more in the early and mid game to force less greed (which is why Photon Overcharge is overpowered, Protoss doesn't need more than a couple of units while they gaining huge advantages in tech, and then gateway explosion to meatshield their tech units) the Protoss cannot go into the midgame with 2-3 tech paths completed coupled with huge upgrades.
It almost sounds like warp gates themselves are what need to be changed, at least in the longterm. If Protoss players were forced to continuously produce units in order to have a large army later in the game, they wouldn't be able to rely on such an all-or-nothing style of holding attacks while expanding. I'm all for racial asymmetry, but maybe warp gates shouldn't have both the strategic advantage over gateways as well as the macro advantage. Maybe there should be a trade-off in production speed vs the ability to warp in units anywhere on the map.
You can't call up the showmatches for anything other than showcasing the adjustments; nobody has played with them enough to determine if something now is OP.
I´m not whining here, just curious because i´m at loss to how to open solidly after the patch, TL seemed a good place to ask.
I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC.
The Balance test showmatches for one seemed to clearly indicate that opening Templar-Chargelot has become unviable against mines. Likewise my own tests with it (doesn´t say much though).
The Templar style however evolved against SCV Pulls, which demolish Colossi openings which are also very weak against drops.
So what do?
Well a single bo7 shouldnt indicate anything. but aside from that, it will need a month or two atleast to find a correct playstyle against it. Some months ago WMs were incredible good vs Zergs untill they learned to detonate them with small ammounts of unit. Protoss will have to do the same and not charge everything in at once. Im not saying it wont be broken or anything but atleast give some of the top players time to figure out how its going to play out. Templar opening might struggle but then again maybe it only makes games more exciting? I'll be interesting to see how it works out
edit: yay 2222 posts ^^ I cant tell you the "right" playstyle btw. Its always problematic after a patch because most of us arent good enough to find a strong and optimized build on their own. Just remember: the terrans will have to create new builds aswell to add WMs effectivly and in bigger numbers
Good changes. I felt that if there were changes to be made, these were the most reasonable atm.
btw, just asking cause im snot sure: how exactly does the widow mine splash damage affect immortal shields? I would guess that would be pretty interesting for mech players.
You can't call up the showmatches for anything other than showcasing the adjustments; nobody has played with them enough to determine if something now is OP.
I´m not whining here, just curious because i´m at loss to how to open solidly after the patch, TL seemed a good place to ask.
So, let me try to help you. The mine buff will accomplish 2 things: - More Mine Drops - Mines vs Zealot/Archon/Templar armies. As for the first, we've known how to handle that for about a year now, it's not hard to scout, so this shouldn't pose a problem. As for the second, this is where things get interesting. Here, there's the need for detection as well as splitting your army. Detection can be done by Observers (which have to get to the frontline and become endangered by scan+marine) or Oracles, which have larger detection range and as such can stay back further, but cost more control. So now we know, in our templar opening, we must incorporate either a Robotics Bay or a Stargate and keep the Oracle alive. Both of these have builds set in place, but will they have to be adapted? Probably. As for the splitting/baiting; Protoss units tend to be in lower numbers, so you'll need to adapt here. Either flank more aggressively, abuse Blink stalkers to pick of forward mines safely (akin to Mutalisk + Overseer), and perhaps Hallucination can offer help? (funny sidenote; Carriers bait Mines into the opposing army like champs :D)
Conclusion; things may change, but there's already builds that include failsafes against Mine play. Be sure to keep their numbers low and not to engage in chokes!
On February 26 2014 07:33 Yorbon wrote: Good changes. I felt that if there were changes to be made, these were the most reasonable atm.
btw, just asking cause im snot sure: how exactly does the widow mine splash damage affect immortal shields? I would guess that would be pretty interesting for mech players.
It's a spell, technically, so it does full damage.
On February 26 2014 07:34 SC2Toastie wrote: (funny sidenote; Carriers bait Mines into the opposing army like champs :D)
Somebody call White-Ra. We need some sort of proxy 2 base Carrier PvT build.
You can't call up the showmatches for anything other than showcasing the adjustments; nobody has played with them enough to determine if something now is OP.
I´m not whining here, just curious because i´m at loss to how to open solidly after the patch, TL seemed a good place to ask.
Why do you think things changed drastically that "none of your openers are solid" anymore? Did you just go blink all in every game? All of your openers are fine. Try them and anwer your own question.
All in all, I'm mostly Ok with these changes, The MSC vision nerf was needed, the hydra attack increase kinda seems like they are prepping for a SH nerf and the WM change is always good
Pretty pointless changes. TvP will stay broken and they have no idea what to do with swarmhosts. At least they left tempests alone. Guess we need even more time for something to move.
You can't call up the showmatches for anything other than showcasing the adjustments; nobody has played with them enough to determine if something now is OP.
I´m not whining here, just curious because i´m at loss to how to open solidly after the patch, TL seemed a good place to ask.
Why do you think things changed drastically that "none of your openers are solid" anymore? Did you just go blink all in every game? All of your openers are fine. Try them and anwer your own question.
Here we go again. MsC is not just a blink allin machine. It's actually quite useful outside that function.
Ghosts now get free EMP. Widow mines now do 100% more damage in splash. Those changes are relevant. It's not just the MsC sight range.
SCV pull timings were winning a lot of games until Protoss started going Templar first. Templar play relies a lot on Chargelots and having energy to Storm, obviously. The Ghost and Widow mine buffs both weaken this kind of opening.
His argument is somewhat valid, although we all need to play the game more before judging whether or not something is broken.
@ toastie Thanks seems like solid advice, will try. It will still mean you have to open with 2 gases and get an early robo and scout with the second obs (keep one at home). especially against the bane of my greedy existence, proxy fact ;-)
@ anon sc2
Why do you think things changed drastically that "none of your openers are solid" anymore? Did you just go blink all in every game? All of your openers are fine. Try them and anwer your own question.
Actually i was thinking more along the lines of something that lets you take a third relatively safely which is why i liked to open temps+ chargelot so much. Going robo--> colo seemed to invite drops or scv pulls. (low stalker count, no feedback)
even while it was extremely strong i still didn´t like to blink/oracle allin.
On February 26 2014 07:50 pmp10 wrote: Pretty pointless changes. TvP will stay broken and they have no idea what to do with swarmhosts. At least they left tempests alone. Guess we need even more time for something to move.
Your post is pointless. What is broken about PvT that this doesn't address? Give an argument or something. Don't just come out here and say "this is stupid nothing will change." We have enough of those posts already.
I think it is great news, i still think that a nerf of the photon overcharge or of the immortals is necessary, since we see a lot of pro zergs continue to lose to immortals based builds, but maybe fast hydras will become the norm to fight these.
The hydra buff also gives zergs a great way to fight skytoss other than with SH/spores/corruptors , if used properly with vipers/infestors, giving more dynamism. What is more, it could bring back the roach hydra style vs bio terran.
I also believe that the vehicles upgrades concerning air units is too much, giving too much room for error to the terran, but the changes made the game very close to perfect balance in my opinion, great job! :D
I am not only glad they are going through with the mine and MSC change but also because they are doing it during season. Yes this will obviously hurt protoss since they will have to adapt to the new mine play but as it is now, terrans are hurting in PL and GSL/WCS as well so it is nice they didn't wait too long with this patch.
On February 26 2014 07:57 Johnsonson wrote: I think it is great news, i still think that a nerf of the photon overcharge or of the immortals is necessary, since we see a lot of pro zergs continue to lose to immortals based builds, but maybe fast hydras will become the norm to fight these.
The hydra buff also gives zergs a great way to fight skytoss other than with SH/spores/corruptors , if used properly with vipers/infestors, giving more dynamism. What is more, it could bring back the roach hydra style vs bio terran.
I also believe that the vehicles upgrades concerning air units is too much, giving too much room for error to the terran, but the changes made the game very close to perfect balance in my opinion, great job! :D
Like how DRG saw Creator moving out and still pressed D hard and lost? Immortal all in is fine.
On February 26 2014 04:42 TTBest wrote: I'm pretty sure that MSC nerf will be by far enough to let the PvT and PvZ winrates decrease sensibly. Next Weeks will show, Protoss will have to change their Earlygame Approch in terms of scouting, defending and harass.
Ehm PvZ is perfectly balanced. Actually Z is winning atm.
On February 26 2014 07:50 pmp10 wrote: Pretty pointless changes. TvP will stay broken and they have no idea what to do with swarmhosts. At least they left tempests alone. Guess we need even more time for something to move.
Your post is pointless. What is broken about PvT that this doesn't address? Give an argument or something. Don't just come out here and say "this is stupid nothing will change." We have enough of those posts already.
This has been explained many times but if you insist: patch does not address at all issues of early game strategic options in TvP and so it is pointless. It will at best do nothing and at worst harm the match-up with more build order counters.
But i still feel that the lack of aggressive options in TvP for the Terran in comparision to the Protoss is still hurting the matchup alot. I hope they change something about the MSC OC (maybe channeling over the nexus?) so you can get aggressive early on as terran.
On February 26 2014 08:10 forsakeNXE wrote: I really like the MSC Vision nerf, much needed.
But i still feel that the lack of aggressive options in TvP for the Terran in comparision to the Protoss is still hurting the matchup alot. I hope they change something about the MSC OC (maybe channeling over the nexus?) so you can get aggressive early on as terran.
But good start. Approved.
At first I thought that the vision did not really affect blink all-ins. But after watching a game, I realized that protoss knows exactly where tanks are seiged (if that's the chosen way to defend) due to the overwhelming vision range.
Also, that much vision range is really silly in battles on the field where fog of war has a big effect on the outcomes of battles.
I believe this will distinguish good Protoss from decent Protoss players. Keeping vision around the map will be more important now.
On February 26 2014 07:55 saintforsale wrote: @ toastie Thanks seems like solid advice, will try. It will still mean you have to open with 2 gases and get an early robo and scout with the second obs (keep one at home). especially against the bane of my greedy existence, proxy fact ;-)
On February 26 2014 07:57 Johnsonson wrote: I think it is great news, i still think that a nerf of the photon overcharge or of the immortals is necessary, since we see a lot of pro zergs continue to lose to immortals based builds, but maybe fast hydras will become the norm to fight these.
The hydra buff also gives zergs a great way to fight skytoss other than with SH/spores/corruptors , if used properly with vipers/infestors, giving more dynamism. What is more, it could bring back the roach hydra style vs bio terran.
I also believe that the vehicles upgrades concerning air units is too much, giving too much room for error to the terran, but the changes made the game very close to perfect balance in my opinion, great job! :D
Like how DRG saw Creator moving out and still pressed D hard and lost? Immortal all in is fine.
It has not been held in pro matches recently, but that might have to do with it simply not happening too often anymore.
The hydralisk buff will help in all three matchups, but I think they're missing the mark. A 10% buff in dps I doubt is going to make a dent in the roach dominance of ZvZ or even making me slightly consider roach/hydra against bio which was the goal here. Not that big in ZvP either, hp/armor is really more of an issue there as they melt to storm/collosi and even phoenix fare nicely against them.
According to Aligulacs most recent balance report, PvZ sits at 50.18%. It has been either balanced or Zerg favored for 20+ months straight. Implementing both a massive MSC nerf and a massive Hydra buff now is certainly daring.
On February 26 2014 08:39 Aiobhill wrote: According to Aligulacs most recent balance report, PvZ sits at 50.18%. It has been either balanced or Zerg favored for 20+ months straight. Implementing both a massive MSC nerf and a massive Hydra buff now is certainly daring.
I agree that PvZ is balanced. More than any matchup. But hydras aren't used too much. Nothing I love more than zerg trying to cancel a 3rd with hydras. If they get a bit better it wont change much.
MSC vision range doesn't mean too too much in this matchup. Worth much more in PvT.
So overall I doubt it will change much. Hydras are more viable vs airtoss, but that's about it.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
1. its an ALL IN, so its a coinflip anyways. If there is a "save" way to do an ALL IN than it is either not an ALL IN or clearly some drastic balance changes had to happen. Blink Rush of 1 or 2 Base was way too easy to execute since the MSC arrived and way too hard to defend, also if the toss goes for it and fails, he shouldnt get away with it (thats the risk man), he should have a huge disadvantage. Wasn't always the case, that's what the problem was for terrans: they have to be prepared for so many things in early game, the cannot make pressure: Proxy Oracles, Blink or other timings. Toss has too many weapons for harass or easy win/cheese at the beginning. If T goes for an early attack there is the Photon Overcharge and if T waits too long storms or colossi again force the T back into not attacking and then we see the same game over and over again: Deathball rolling towards T- Base, T attacks from different angle, perfect EMPs... oh but missing 2 templars out of 10, then 4 Storms and everything is dead into gg. At least the early game is now a bit more open and T doesnt have to play either completely defensively but push out sooner/harass more or whatever. Dont get me wrong, I thing lots of options is good and helps for more variety, but lots of secure options for one race, while the other one has to only defend and hope it is only a push and not an all-in is just bad design and had to be changed. What was wrong about P in WoL why does it need the early mothership core anyways or why does the MSC hve to leave the base at all - it is (or rather was planned as) a defensive unit, which got abused to the max and now people complain that blizzard wants to change the aggressive to defensive use again? I think some players got too comfortable on their throne and how they think their race did work so far and didn't think at all that it was too easy to use and abuse and too easy to make damage and in that case simply unfair and inbalanced. The, in your words HUGE change just shows how huge the Inbalance must have been then, right?
2. any easier counter to such an allin/aggressive move should be easier then the planning and execution of the attack. Otherwise it would be stupid NOT to go for such an agressive Strat.
3.Not sure about the Hydra buff either, was it really needed?
I'm a bit concerned that the TvP changes are misplaced.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad changes have been made, but does this really address the core of the issue?
Protoss can still choose one of twenty build orders out of a hat at zero risk because of photon overcharge. Terran still needs to scout and respond perfectly or instantly lose to numerous possible openings, many of which look exactly the same and can be proxied anywhere on the map.
Regardless of balance, do you really want it to be like this? Even if the matchup settles on 50-50, it will be because Terran has some stupidly strong midgame timings.
Why do Protoss need early scouting when Nexus cannon crushes any early aggression? For mid and late game they have tons of options for scouting: observers, oracles, hallucinations etc...I think these changes are quite irrelevant. I would be surprised if PvT changes too much. Widow Mines are gimmicky units that work only against non-ranged units. Once spotted they are useless.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
I hope I didnt come off as against it, but yes that is the point of the nerf. Now Shutting down the all-in via sniping the MSC is a realistic possibility and not a pipe dream bnet protoss players keep telling you to smoke. As a macro toss I'm cool with that,
On February 26 2014 08:45 p14c wrote: Why do Protoss need early scouting when Nexus cannon crushes any early aggression? For mid and late game they have tons of options for scouting: observers, oracles, hallucinations etc...I think these changes are quite irrelevant. I would be surprised if PvT changes too much. Widow Mines are gimmicky units that work only against non-ranged units. Once spotted they are useless.
It does not. There are a few stim timings / marine tank raven / other things that simply relying on Photon Overcharge is not enough to stop. We need to know that it's coming and add some units. Stim bio kills a Nexus pretty fast if there aren't many other units.
Also, it's not just aggression. Protoss needs to scout if Terran is playing greedy.
On February 26 2014 05:42 chillaful wrote: @ KrazyTrumpet i dont know in which universe protoss was for u a struggling and inconsistent race lol. the msc only makes PvP less coinflip, thats it.
You might want to rewatch some WoL games. Protoss needs MSC defensive abilities for stability and not just in PvP. The only thing silly about MSC is that it is a superb offensive tool and a defensive tool at the same time.
well pretty easy answer to this: it needs a sort of short ranged wireless connection to a nexus to work... or in other words: it needs to be somehow forced to stay at "home" to work and it doesn't work in the offense. Pretty easy to implement
On February 26 2014 05:34 chillaful wrote: jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely! the widowmine change can at least make the mid-lategame more interesting but the nerf of the msc-vision is by far not enough. the reason why bs-allins are imba are not rly the maps its just the msc, in wol it was much more possible to deal with bs allins. all abilities of early agression from terran like proxy marodeur rushes, marodeur helion pushes, 2 rax etc. are not possible anymore. In Wol, without the msc terran hat at least 10 effective openings, but because of the msc now we have 3 (reaper expand into 3 rax, cc first, and reaper expand into widowmine). a joke!
Oh, I see,it's OK as long as the Terran is the one with 10 different openings. If it's a Protoss, it's not fair and must be nerfed.
Come on, buddy, get real. Wings of Terran era ended a long time ago and isn't coming back.
it actually endet in the middle of WoL when it was figured out that all these openings are easily countered and Terran has no real lategame. Or what do you think, why was it more a Wings of PvZ or more clearly "will the archon toilet catch the GGlords and Winfestors?" T were really struggling in the 2nd half of the WoL era, the cheesy T openings (Bunkerrush, proxy rax, banshee opening) got nerfed ( see bunker build time change in the current patch) or got figured out how to defend it. Terran still has these openings, HOTS didnt take options away, but none of them is viable anymore or at least not considered a real threat.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: 2. Oracles which were already becoming pretty useless in PvT will now be completely useless and no longer even a backstab threat since 1 widowmine in a probe line will completely shut this down.
OMG please don't tell me you are serious. Oracle is FASTER then any terran unit and its acceleration and movement is also so quick, that if you don't do damage with an oracle opening you are just being a bad player. Learn to get it in and out without taking damage. You don't have to kill every scv with your first swipe, you can reload shilds etc. I have almost NEVER seen oracle NOT doing damage, so it is really you, who makes this unit useless.
On February 26 2014 06:23 sandman1678 wrote: 3. Warp prism harrass will become completely useless since a widow mine and some rallied back rax units will completel shut this down.
aha, if we have units exactly on the right spot it makes harassement useless. what a surprise. you sire are again failing at argumenting. These things shouldnt win the game on their own, these are TOOLS and it is up to you how good you use them. Same argument could be turned into terrans favor: Drops are useless, within one second Imbatoss can always warp in 10 chargelots and kill the drop. Or feedback. Or blink under the medivacs. Or place cannons. or.... Plus: toss has cheap permanent, cloaked observers, terrans dont have them, so its easier to fly in with a (very fast) prism then with a medivac, drop, kill something, and get out of there alive. Also don't forget about HT Storm drops: easy to pull of, doing TONS of damage, could get out of there again just as easy. BTW: Every toss I've seen so far that did Prism drops and did parallel damage on another part of the T bases so Terran had to split up, did way more damage than he took, getting more and more ahead. If you lose the prism to some Terran that keeps big parts of the army in the base throughout all game, you failed on abusing the fact that he didn't have his whole army together...
Your WM statement is also stupid, cause WM was stronger before and it didnt kill toss that was prepared for it (so you maybe need to adapt and learn how to not be completely safe in the first 10 minutes, which was a bad design error and not actually fair anyways.
On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote: All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now?
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed.
Colossus every game just like wings?
What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now.
No whine just honestly courious.
how does the patch change 2 base templar opening? Learn to scout with drones again or observer (currently it feels some protoss "forgot" how to do that, as it wasn't needed), leave the MSC at home. It is a defensive unit. They should also remove recall so it isn't that useful in offensive maneuvres anymore.
Being less greedy could also bei an option (going from 1 base and harassement into 2 base and then later)
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
On February 26 2014 04:50 DifuntO wrote: All these are good changes. Now if only they can find a way to make Swarm Host PvZ fun to watch...
Remove them And Oracles And WM
Buff Tanks instead so we have epic BW Like TvZ action again.
That way zerg gets to lose every single turtle mech and air toss game!
like it was in the end of WOL, where Zerg crushed T left and right, right? So funny how people forget figured out strats. Like toss is now helpless vs WM drops or early aggression vs their blind 2 base greedy openings cause they are so much used to overcharge the shit out of every early aggression :D
On February 26 2014 04:50 DifuntO wrote: All these are good changes. Now if only they can find a way to make Swarm Host PvZ fun to watch...
Remove them And Oracles And WM
Buff Tanks instead so we have epic BW Like TvZ action again.
That way zerg gets to lose every single turtle mech and air toss game!
like it was in the end of WOL, where Zerg crushed T left and right, right? So funny how people forget figured out strats. Like toss is now helpless vs WM drops or early aggression vs their blind 2 base greedy openings cause they are so much used to overcharge the shit out of every early aggression :D
I think there was a unit that worked differently back then. What was it called....oh yeah, the infestor.
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
aaah its that simple :D Well then, I wonder why there were only 3 terrans at the GSL CODE S RO 32? Ah i remember: because it simply takes much more action to pull of then to defend, it doesn't do enough damage and if you go for a medivac timing, bait out the cannon 1 min before, you have like a very small window if T goes colossi -> you better leave again soon, if T goes storm, you better don't let these lightnings go down or you have lost your (at this point of time) expensive army and if Toss has any clue how Terran works, they could then just walk over you or freely expand.
In theorycraft you may be right, but let's not forget that while all that happens T needs to macro up behind (making buildings, deciding how much damage he can do and if he goes for an allin or expanding or whatever), better scout the minimap if no counteraction is going on etc. And as not everybody is a 400 apm korean Terran, I would like to be in the toss position when Terran trys this early aggression thing you are talking about
(btw i switched from T to P or more to random and it actually IS easier to defend then to pull of)
BTW #2: all the things you are trying to say(focusing things, splitting armies drops to pull the attention etc), are the things you need to learn when you want to go out of bronze with macro builds, or in other words it is the Terran 1x1 -> therefore, every Terran knows how to theorycraft-win a game, but somehow micro is harder to do, then just thinking about it and therefore this is the reason why terrans already have 2x the apm in lower leagues and still are in bronze cause there it takes that much more effort to win vs a protoss (as you pointed out perfectly, it is JUST needed to do this and that, multitask a bit, micro a bit, focus a bit, keep the toss busy etc - yeah simple, while Toss is still save if...)
besides that, some things you say are just untrue, a 1-1-1 wouldn't work against the cannon anymore
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
PDD.
I had it done against me actually. It's strong.
Nobody wants to make a Zealot or the first Stalker either. But you have to because otherwise the Terran Engi blocks you and the Reaper gets in and starts shooting your probes!
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
PDD.
I had it done against me actually. It's strong.
Hmm PDD, making a raven instead of a banshee or other useful(damagedealing) units sounds risky - but will try out, thx for the tip
On February 26 2014 04:50 DifuntO wrote: All these are good changes. Now if only they can find a way to make Swarm Host PvZ fun to watch...
Remove them And Oracles And WM
Buff Tanks instead so we have epic BW Like TvZ action again.
That way zerg gets to lose every single turtle mech and air toss game!
like it was in the end of WOL, where Zerg crushed T left and right, right? So funny how people forget figured out strats. Like toss is now helpless vs WM drops or early aggression vs their blind 2 base greedy openings cause they are so much used to overcharge the shit out of every early aggression :D
You think blord infestor isn't played now because people forgot how to do it?
The nerfing of infestors, buffing vikings ravens thors dual mech upgrades and fucking voidrays/tempests make it pretty unviable as a game plan tbh
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
PDD.
I had it done against me actually. It's strong.
Nobody wants to make a Zealot or the first Stalker either. But you have to because otherwise the Terran Engi blocks you and the Reaper gets in and starts shooting your probes!
Yes, but the Protoss I was replying to said Terrans are too predictable because they all open reapers first. I simply said that it is a big gamble if you don't open reapers.
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
aaah its that simple :D Well then, I wonder why there were only 3 terrans at the GSL CODE S RO 32? Ah i remember: because it simply takes much more action to pull of then to defend, it doesn't do enough damage and if you go for a medivac timing, bait out the cannon 1 min before, you have like a very small window if T goes colossi -> you better leave again soon, if T goes storm, you better don't let these lightnings go down or you have lost your (at this point of time) expensive army and if Toss has any clue how Terran works, they could then just walk over you or freely expand.
In theorycraft you may be right, but let's not forget that while all that happens T needs to macro up behind (making buildings, deciding how much damage he can do and if he goes for an allin or expanding or whatever), better scout the minimap if no counteraction is going on etc. And as not everybody is a 400 apm korean Terran, I would like to be in the toss position when Terran trys this early aggression thing you are talking about
(btw i switched from T to P or more to random and it actually IS easier to defend then to pull of)
BTW #2: all the things you are trying to say(focusing things, splitting armies drops to pull the attention etc), are the things you need to learn when you want to go out of bronze with macro builds, or in other words it is the Terran 1x1 -> therefore, every Terran knows how to theorycraft-win a game, but somehow micro is harder to do, then just thinking about it and therefore this is the reason why terrans already have 2x the apm in lower leagues and still are in bronze cause there it takes that much more effort to win vs a protoss (as you pointed out perfectly, it is JUST needed to do this and that, multitask a bit, micro a bit, focus a bit, keep the toss busy etc - yeah simple, while Toss is still save if...)
besides that, some things you say are just untrue, a 1-1-1 wouldn't work against the cannon anymore
Yea it's simple, if you're a Terran trying to get out of bronze, play like a gold Terran. If you're in gold, play like a diamond player.
On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote: All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now?
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed.
Colossus every game just like wings?
What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now.
No whine just honestly courious.
how does the patch change 2 base templar opening? Learn to scout with drones again or observer (currently it feels some protoss "forgot" how to do that, as it wasn't needed), leave the MSC at home. It is a defensive unit. They should also remove recall so it isn't that useful in offensive maneuvres anymore.
Being less greedy could also bei an option (going from 1 base and harassement into 2 base and then later)
If this forum had a mute function I'd use it right now. You come in here pretty much only whining "Terran too weak, Protoss too strong", go passive aggressive on someone who is slightly scared of the new widow mines and even drop some dumb balance suggestion while not considering why they were implemented in the first place. A slightly more positive attitude might be appropriate given that a negative one grants precisely 0 advantages.
By the way Protoss players aren't the only one forgetting techniques. There was a time when occasionally Terrans would walk out with 4 rax worth of marines after FEing to snipe a bunch of sentries. It took a good while until Polt showed that a pre stim moveout might be worth a shot against blink builds. I actually noticed MMA doing WM drops after expo to achieve the same a while earlier. So figure something out. It's a RTS.
I find it odd that they change both MSC vision and widow mines vs shields. It seems they are making 2 fixes to the same problem.
We can all whine as much as we want, but we'll have to wait and see what this does at the pro level. And then wait and see how the Toss respond to this. And then watch the counter respond and so one. There will be a lot of whining for the next few months, but a lot of time has to pass before we actually know what's going on.
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant.
2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing.
3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming.
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
PDD.
I had it done against me actually. It's strong.
Hmm PDD, making a raven instead of a banshee or other useful(damagedealing) units sounds risky - but will try out, thx for the tip
Marine tank Raven. PDD protects you from overcharge, a few scvs to start throwing down bunkers outside natural. It's actually quite strong.
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
aaah its that simple :D Well then, I wonder why there were only 3 terrans at the GSL CODE S RO 32? Ah i remember: because it simply takes much more action to pull of then to defend, it doesn't do enough damage and if you go for a medivac timing, bait out the cannon 1 min before, you have like a very small window if T goes colossi -> you better leave again soon, if T goes storm, you better don't let these lightnings go down or you have lost your (at this point of time) expensive army and if Toss has any clue how Terran works, they could then just walk over you or freely expand.
In theorycraft you may be right, but let's not forget that while all that happens T needs to macro up behind (making buildings, deciding how much damage he can do and if he goes for an allin or expanding or whatever), better scout the minimap if no counteraction is going on etc. And as not everybody is a 400 apm korean Terran, I would like to be in the toss position when Terran trys this early aggression thing you are talking about
(btw i switched from T to P or more to random and it actually IS easier to defend then to pull of)
BTW #2: all the things you are trying to say(focusing things, splitting armies drops to pull the attention etc), are the things you need to learn when you want to go out of bronze with macro builds, or in other words it is the Terran 1x1 -> therefore, every Terran knows how to theorycraft-win a game, but somehow micro is harder to do, then just thinking about it and therefore this is the reason why terrans already have 2x the apm in lower leagues and still are in bronze cause there it takes that much more effort to win vs a protoss (as you pointed out perfectly, it is JUST needed to do this and that, multitask a bit, micro a bit, focus a bit, keep the toss busy etc - yeah simple, while Toss is still save if...)
besides that, some things you say are just untrue, a 1-1-1 wouldn't work against the cannon anymore
1. Really its harder on the attacker than the defender I didn't Know that....Oh wait yeah I did its called a DEFENDERS ADVANTAGE. 2. Yeah of course you have to learn to split your army, but know you don't have to learn to do that to get into higher league unfortunately. There are plenty of players that have made it diamond masters just off of cheese and timing builds. 3. Oh course you have to macro at home if your pushing same rule applies for ever race not just terrans. 4. Of course its harder to do it than it is in theory but not being able to do it personally doesn't mean its unbalanced it just means you need to get better. 5. You have KNOW IDEA rather Terrans or Protosses apm is higher. Nor does apm relate to skill in any way. Anybody can sit and spam in the early game and fake a high apm is how effect your moves per minute are not how many of them you do. 6. Up unitl the last few months timing attacks and all-ins were used alot how many times do you remember seeing scv pulls or big 10-12 minuted pushes. I remember watching forgg, MVP, MMA, Taeja and many other Terrans bust out big 8-12 minute pushes. It wasn't until about october-November last year after the hellbat nerf when the pushes started to calm down some. 7. Everything I said above except for the late game micro doesn't require all that much skill at all to do. Stimming in and out to bait a photon overcharge a little bit before you plan to attack not hard. Stimming in then dropping up into the main isn't all that hard. Nor is just focus firing down a small army and running in to the main. 8. Its not easy for toss either when the Terran is playing right, they have to split their army correctly defend multiple locations, continue to macro, and find some way of applying pressure or far to far behind. However, Alot of terrans will over commit to attack a 2base templar tech protoss and lose. Any race turtled up on 2bases just needs to be contained while you macro. 9. If a Protoss opens colossi you should already know how to deal with this. Before Protoss started opening Templar and opened colossi every game the win rate was in favor of Terran it turned around when Protoss started opening Templar. 10. And I suppose you would also be comfortable saying everytime their were low numbers of Protoss in code S it was because of imbalance.
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant.
2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing.
3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming.
Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening.
When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins.
Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already.
As David Kim mentioned in his recent forum post, we’ll be moving forward with a new balance update this week. However, we realized that our original release schedule for Friday, February 28 would offer WCS Europe Premier League Group F competitors just a few short hours to practice with the new changes. Instead, we’re going to slightly alter our release schedule by holding off on the balance update for the European Battle.net region until after the Group F broadcast concludes on Saturday, March 1.
With tournaments on-going across the globe, there’s never a perfect time to roll out a balance update, but we want to make sure our target dates will have the least amount of impact possible on upcoming events. Once again, this schedule change will only affect Europe and we are still planning to release the update for all other Battle.net regions on Friday, February 28.
Thank you, and good luck to all of the players competing in WCS this week!
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant.
2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing.
3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming.
Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening.
When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins.
Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already.
Yeah but Protoss has to get gas out to get their MSC out, and zerg has to get at leat one gas up if they want to get speed out early. So its working as intended you can sacrifice a little eco to get some map control or risk it and be greedy, Being extremely greedy is always risky.
However, just because you opened with a reaper doesn't mean you can't do a variety of different builds.Furthermore, 1 MSC doesn't stop a reaper from scouting just keeps it from snipeing probes. Even when the first stalkers comes out around 4:15-4:30 a reaper can still get a scout off and get out.
There are more than one way to prepare for Blink look at the way Polt does it. Furthermore, a bunker takes 40secs to build so if you scout 4+ stalkers out you can throw up an extra bunker in your main since you should already have one at your natural, then if you see a push coming have enough time to get a 3rd up. Other than that it depends on how greedy and late you are with your rax's and stim. I notice polt get his 3 raxs up decently early and get out a decent amount of units and if he spots blink he gets a large swell of units and will actually counter attack when the stalkers move it and completely shut Blink down.
wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss.
No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told.
Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant.
2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing.
3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming.
Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening.
When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins.
Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already.
Yeah but Protoss has to get gas out to get their MSC out, and zerg has to get at leat one gas up if they want to get speed out early. So its working as intended you can sacrifice a little eco to get some map control or risk it and be greedy, Being extremely greedy is always risky.
However, just because you opened with a reaper doesn't mean you can't do a variety of different builds.Furthermore, 1 MSC doesn't stop a reaper from scouting just keeps it from snipeing probes. Even when the first stalkers comes out around 4:15-4:30 a reaper can still get a scout off and get out.
There are more than one way to prepare for Blink look at the way Polt does it. Furthermore, a bunker takes 40secs to build so if you scout 4+ stalkers out you can throw up an extra bunker in your main since you should already have one at your natural, then if you see a push coming have enough time to get a 3rd up. Other than that it depends on how greedy and late you are with your rax's and stim. I notice polt get his 3 raxs up decently early and get out a decent amount of units and if he spots blink he gets a large swell of units and will actually counter attack when the stalkers move it and completely shut Blink down.
You are the one saying that terrans are doing the same reaper openings... Was just trying to explain why terrans are going reaper first a lot.
As for Polt's move out, yes, it can work if unscouted. But going out of the base with unstimmed bio is always risky vs stalkers and MsC out (timewarp).
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up.
Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge?
No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant.
2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing.
3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming.
Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening.
When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins.
Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already.
Yeah but Protoss has to get gas out to get their MSC out, and zerg has to get at leat one gas up if they want to get speed out early. So its working as intended you can sacrifice a little eco to get some map control or risk it and be greedy, Being extremely greedy is always risky.
However, just because you opened with a reaper doesn't mean you can't do a variety of different builds.Furthermore, 1 MSC doesn't stop a reaper from scouting just keeps it from snipeing probes. Even when the first stalkers comes out around 4:15-4:30 a reaper can still get a scout off and get out.
There are more than one way to prepare for Blink look at the way Polt does it. Furthermore, a bunker takes 40secs to build so if you scout 4+ stalkers out you can throw up an extra bunker in your main since you should already have one at your natural, then if you see a push coming have enough time to get a 3rd up. Other than that it depends on how greedy and late you are with your rax's and stim. I notice polt get his 3 raxs up decently early and get out a decent amount of units and if he spots blink he gets a large swell of units and will actually counter attack when the stalkers move it and completely shut Blink down.
You are the one saying that terrans are doing the same reaper openings... Was just trying to explain why terrans are going reaper first a lot.
As for Polt's move out, yes, it can work if unscouted. But going out of the base with unstimmed bio is always risky vs stalkers and MsC out (timewarp).
As to Polt's move out if thier going for a blink push its going to be nearly impossible for them to scout with no obs as they try and move across the map. However, if Polt kept his units at home he would be able to defend just as well, Polt holding isn't determined on the counter attack its the large amount of units and how fast he gets stim out. What hurts alot of Terrans is stim being to far delayed, lack of units, and lack of production. Furthermore, the eco Polt loses early on is made back up in delaying the protosses 3rd or from shutting down early blink aggression. My point is you don't need the counter attack for this to work just stim, the swell of units, and production.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
Oracles hit around a very specific time to fix this issue:
1. If no reaper scout or in a heavy oracle meta game rally back your marines into your mineral line between i believe 6-7or8min mark by then an oracle if its coming should have come already and having those marines their should shut it down.
2. If reaper scout you can tell by either scouting the stargate or lack their of Pylon and tech in the protosses main base that something was proxied and its probally a stargate.
3. Once you have pushed off the oracle the first time get out a missle turret in both minerals lines and if your going to be using WMs try placing 1 around the outside geyser of either the natural or main.
However, your going to go its not that easy i won't remember to do that, I'll have to spend money on 2 turrets, so you will call me stupid and say the oracle is broken and Blizzard hates Terran.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
Oracles hit around a very specific time to fix this issue:
1. If no reaper scout or in a heavy oracle meta game rally back your marines into your mineral line between i believe 6-7or8min mark by then an oracle if its coming should have come already and having those marines their should shut it down.
2. If reaper scout you can tell by either scouting the stargate or lack their of Pylon and tech in the protosses main base that something was proxied and its probally a stargate.
3. Once you have pushed off the oracle the first time get out a missle turret in both minerals lines and if your going to be using WMs try placing 1 around the outside geyser of either the natural or main.
However, your going to go its not that easy i won't remember to do that, I'll have to spend money on 2 turrets, so you will call me stupid and say the oracle is broken and Blizzard hates Terran.
I take it you do not, under any circumstances play terran? Protoss is fine, play it out before theorycrafting so hard and you will learn a lot. Or go play a couple ladder sessions as terrans and you will save yourself a lot of wasted time telling terrans who play at a far higher level than you what to do because youre looking a little ridiculous. But I appreciate your enthusiasm if you apply it in the right way you will be alright man.
Id hate to see some newbie read your post and take your advice because whether you realize it or not your gonna crush some poor nerds dreams.
On another note I cant fucking wait for the patch cuz of the widow mine. Imagine if it really does give auto wins like the toss doomsayers speculate? Quick ggs like our toss brethren have cost us with their hidden dts and blink. Cant wait to break out some Supernova style hidden tech cheese. Ah... how the tables have turned charlie murphy.
On February 26 2014 11:29 seak99 wrote: wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss.
No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told.
Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
more like a lot of sour terran looking for more freebies to me.
Most of the terrans' nerfs in HOTS were meant to address TvZ, never for TvP. So take your whine elsewhere. PO, MSC vision, stalker blink all-in exist since the release of HOTS. When Protoss was not doing well, nobody complained about them. Now everybody like you just jumped into the bandwagon and balance whine, lol.
On February 26 2014 11:29 seak99 wrote: wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss.
No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told.
Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
more like a lot of sour terran looking for more freebies to me.
Most of the terrans' nerfs in HOTS were meant to address TvZ, never for TvP. So take your whine elsewhere. PO, MSC vision, stalker blink all-in exist since the release of HOTS. When Protoss was not doing well, nobody complained about them. Now everybody like you just jumped into the bandwagon and balance whine, lol.
The game will never be perfectly balanced because of design its a fact. We have been dealing with DT auto wins, blink auto wins, for a long time now. Many professional terrans and are getting fucked and thats not good for the game. Maybe for your ladder points but if you give a damn about the game youd be a little more diplomatic. The way they balance these auto win strats is by giving terrans some of those some opportunities that toss has been benefiting from for a long time. I would prefer these strats dont exist at all but hey, there is inherent problems with the design of the game we have to accept at this point. Try to look at it from both sides and stop being selfish. Your scouting was nerfed, okay, nerfs happen. But guess what terrans have been having a helluva time scouting toss its getting to the point where the best of terrans routinely running around their base like headless chickens preparing for shit that simply isnt coming. It was either they took away the element of surprise by giving terrans more viable scouting or the find some sort of way to take that scouting away from protoss. I wouldve preferred the former but hey, shit happens. Or maybe as a terran Im getting so used to nerfs Im not as sensitives as you guys but play the game it wont affect you.
If it does, chances are its because YOU did something wrong not David Kim.
If we gave you the mothership core as it is after the patch at the start of hots you would have been thrilled but now you lot cant begin to fathom a world where the vision is decreased? WTF. These things have nothing to do with us anyway unless your gm. Its about the korean terrans getting raped. Its about the game being good enough for aspiring progamers to choose playing it and giving us their entertainment?
What do you people what? Will you be satisfied with no attempts to balance the game until it gets to the point terran doesnt exist on the highest echelon anymore? Sometimes it seems like it.
I wouldn't mind them nerfing swarm hosts as long as they give zerg an alternative army composition that doesn't melt in 5 seconds (maybe bring back broodlords).
On February 26 2014 11:29 seak99 wrote: wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss.
No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told.
Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
more like a lot of sour terran looking for more freebies to me.
Most of the terrans' nerfs in HOTS were meant to address TvZ, never for TvP. So take your whine elsewhere. PO, MSC vision, stalker blink all-in exist since the release of HOTS. When Protoss was not doing well, nobody complained about them. Now everybody like you just jumped into the bandwagon and balance whine, lol.
Thanks for making my case for me
Sometimes it takes a bit of time before a strategy or unit is utilized properly. Hence it may have been in the game a while but never been nerfed.
People have been complaining about protoss for a long time. Some of it warranted, some of it not. But David Kim is doing this to balance at the top level, so it doesn't matter for the rest of us gamers right
On February 26 2014 11:29 seak99 wrote: wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss.
No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told.
Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
more like a lot of sour terran looking for more freebies to me.
Most of the terrans' nerfs in HOTS were meant to address TvZ, never for TvP. So take your whine elsewhere. PO, MSC vision, stalker blink all-in exist since the release of HOTS. When Protoss was not doing well, nobody complained about them. Now everybody like you just jumped into the bandwagon and balance whine, lol.
People have been bringing up blink all ins, stalker + msc pokes, po, msc vision for fucking months. People were complaining about blink all ins before hots was released lol.
MsC nerf is too big imo, it is still an important scouting tool for PvP and with the current vision radius, they can't scout out the opponent at all. make it smaller but more vulnerable to marine poke would be great
On February 26 2014 12:40 sagefreke wrote: I wouldn't mind them nerfing swarm hosts as long as they give zerg an alternative army composition that doesn't melt in 5 seconds (maybe bring back broodlords).
what do you mean by bring back broodlords? they never went anywhere its just ultras were better in tvz for awhile since the and tempest in pvz. so what do you mean by that?
As protoss I approve of Mine and Mothership core changes. I don't like the idea of making Zerg more powerful with the current swarm host turtle metagame, but time will tell if it's good.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup.
Mutas aren't an opening. They're not coming at 5:30 and fucking up your mineral line. WM's don't deviate builds like oracles do nor do they cause game ending damage if you don't prepare for them right then and there unless you're retarded and clump up your probes while trying to run.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
I wouldnt mind their utility if they were able to be countered by good mirco and minimap awareness for a snipe. As it stands they come out of the stargate and as long as toss has some semblance of silver tier control your hard pressed to kill the fucker ever. Most stuff is risk reward, oracle openings are one of those openings that are simply REWARD REWARD NO RISK HERE.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup.
Mutas aren't an opening. They're not coming at 5:30 and fucking up your mineral line. WM's don't deviate builds like oracles do nor do they cause game ending damage if you don't prepare for them right then and there unless you're retarded and clump up your probes while trying to run.
Yup theres something toss can do mirco wise to minimize the effectiveness of the widow mine. Oracles are impossible to kill and are still cost efficient even when u invest in directly countering them with turrets. U literally need 2 turrets or 1 turret and a marines. It doesnt make sense.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
I disagree. No one is having problems with the oracles out right killing them. But if you watched the Maru vs Zest game, the oracles basically kept Maru in the dark forever while not letting him move out. And Zest used that (plus the blink fake) to get a fast third. This is a rather strong BO without much counter play from terran.
I'm really excited about this patch. I hope some version of Tank First might be possible again. In WoL Tank first stopped a lot of 1 base all ins, including 4gate. Or building up your tanks could stop a 2 base colossus all in if you started early. But once MsC +2 stalker rush or stalker/zealot/MsC, or Oracle proxy etc, Siege tank openings don't work.
Making an engineering bay after fast CC to stop oracles isn't a problem if the first tank+2-3 marines couldn't just be sniped by MsC and 2 stalkers. Tank First would be so huge for mech. We will have to see if this is possible or some variation of it.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
If protoss fails to do damage with oracles, they too fall far behind.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
I disagree. No one is having problems with the oracles out right killing them. But if you watched the Maru vs Zest game, the oracles basically kept Maru in the dark forever while not letting him move out. And Zest used that (plus the blink fake) to get a fast third. This is a rather strong BO without much counter play from terran.
I haven't seen the game, but it doesn't matter. If it is so dang strong, that you can get a fast 3rd and put the terran far behind, it should be done every single game at pro level, and P should have 90%+ winrate. They don't, so it's not.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
If protoss fails to do damage with oracles, they too fall far behind.
This guy is right its not like they can play greedy behind it because of overcharge and defend their random tech on the map with warpgate, stop being ridiculous that huge risks with these openings thats why these coin flip type builds reflect the plummeting nature of protoss winrates.
On February 26 2014 13:52 wishr wrote: So much protoss tears in this thread. Why everyone just complain so much instead of just playing?
So much Protoss tears? Where do you get that from? I think there were a couple of Protoss posters, one of whom, I am pretty certain is a troll (theory crafting like mad) with a few Terran rising to it. But, the rest seem to be generally fine with it - as am I.
So much Protoss tears? Where do you get that from? I think there were a couple of Protoss posters, one of whom, I am pretty certain is a troll (theory crafting like mad) with a few Terran rising to it. But, the rest seem to be generally fine with it - as am I.
Eh, I'm really disappointed they didn't try different approach to Hydras. Here's the idea I mentioned in another thread some time ago:
"Regarding Hydralisk, I think that it would be much better to buff their anti air range and/or HP, not DPS. Perhaps something like this: Air attack range increased from 5 to 6. (becomes 7 after range upgrade) HP increased from 80 to 90.
Anti air range is especially relevant because Zerg lacks good AA, except for spores. This would give them the same AA range as Queens, after you make range upgrade."
Edit:
On February 26 2014 14:16 Aveng3r wrote: im so dissapointed they didnt do something about blink
They did. MSC vision range nerf affects Blink rushes considerably.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup.
Mutas aren't an opening. They're not coming at 5:30 and fucking up your mineral line. WM's don't deviate builds like oracles do nor do they cause game ending damage if you don't prepare for them right then and there unless you're retarded and clump up your probes while trying to run.
Yup theres something toss can do mirco wise to minimize the effectiveness of the widow mine. Oracles are impossible to kill and are still cost efficient even when u invest in directly countering them with turrets. U literally need 2 turrets or 1 turret and a marines. It doesnt make sense.
Oh my god TWO WHOLE TURRETS? NO WAY 200 minerals to block a 300/300 Toss investment? Oh man how rough that must be.
Seems legit to me. They have made good changes of late, but is it enough. I still feel like Terran is very weak. I am just hoping innovation, MKP(return of the king), MVP, Flash can come out with some new ways to play for me to copy lol.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup.
Mutas aren't an opening. They're not coming at 5:30 and fucking up your mineral line. WM's don't deviate builds like oracles do nor do they cause game ending damage if you don't prepare for them right then and there unless you're retarded and clump up your probes while trying to run.
Yup theres something toss can do mirco wise to minimize the effectiveness of the widow mine. Oracles are impossible to kill and are still cost efficient even when u invest in directly countering them with turrets. U literally need 2 turrets or 1 turret and a marines. It doesnt make sense.
Oh my god TWO WHOLE TURRETS? NO WAY 200 minerals to block a 300/300 Toss investment? Oh man how rough that must be.
Your right even when considering having to build an ebay earlier than you want to building two turrets PER BASE which is four is in no way impeding to your build at all silly me i forget that things like banshees and other forms of terran harass units illicit comparable responses economically (like force and cannons right!) and are so slow they require many actions and attention to detail as opposed to simply selecting overcharge. You are right 200 minerals no and no build hitches. Oracle never cost efficient in the face of perfect mirco duh and preventative measures.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup.
Mutas aren't an opening. They're not coming at 5:30 and fucking up your mineral line. WM's don't deviate builds like oracles do nor do they cause game ending damage if you don't prepare for them right then and there unless you're retarded and clump up your probes while trying to run.
Yup theres something toss can do mirco wise to minimize the effectiveness of the widow mine. Oracles are impossible to kill and are still cost efficient even when u invest in directly countering them with turrets. U literally need 2 turrets or 1 turret and a marines. It doesnt make sense.
Oh my god TWO WHOLE TURRETS? NO WAY 200 minerals to block a 300/300 Toss investment? Oh man how rough that must be.
That's two turrets per base if you want to move out with marines just to keep your mineral lines from getting destroy. Oracles have other uses like picking off SCVs building production, units coming out of production, scouting, deny SCV scout, revelation. So yes, it can be pretty rough.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
I disagree. No one is having problems with the oracles out right killing them. But if you watched the Maru vs Zest game, the oracles basically kept Maru in the dark forever while not letting him move out. And Zest used that (plus the blink fake) to get a fast third. This is a rather strong BO without much counter play from terran.
I haven't seen the game, but it doesn't matter. If it is so dang strong, that you can get a fast 3rd and put the terran far behind, it should be done every single game at pro level, and P should have 90%+ winrate. They don't, so it's not.
/thread
Lol, and BL/infestors weren't used in every single game and ZvP was never 90% for zerg, does that mean it was fine? Or 1-1-1 pre patch and pre map changes?
Are you really suggesting things should only be changed if it has a 90% win rate? If so, please bring back the pre-nerf hellbats and widow mines. With the exception of maybe 5 rax reapers using the early WoL maps, nothing had 90% win rate.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup.
The closest comparable opening was in tvz/tvt and it was called hellbat drops. They since got nerfed because:
Having an opening that can hit you reasonably cheaply and be expanded upon which when not prepared for can instantly lose you the game is stupid, furthermore since we dont play in a vacuum, just the threat of that build forces unreasonable countermeasures vs potentially stronger builds (in tvz its the 21 triple oc build, in pvt there's a miriad).
Hellbat drops were almost unanimously regarded as a ridiculous and hence got nerfed, proxy oracle is if anything worse.
Also, the two examples you gave were ridiculous. One hits you much much later (assuming two base muta here) and you have to do more damage then the proxy oracle build (which is kind of funny) the other cannot end the game without the protoss making the worlds largest micro mistake.
Its interesting to note that DK has been contacting Flash several times for his feedback with regards to balance according to his recent proleague interview.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
If protoss fails to do damage with oracles, they too fall far behind.
That's not true at all. There's been countless games where people open up Stargate oracle, get at most 1-2 SCV kills cause who can't, and it's a very simple templar transition that plays like a normal game. Zest vs Maru was the most recent one in Proleague. sOs vs Bomber in WCS is also an easy one to see. Those are just the ones off the top of my head, I'm sure other people can give you far more examples that you're gonna just ignore.
Really not sure the widow mine buff is needed. Already seeing steady increase in bio-mine compositions in pro-level PvT and in ladder PvT. Imo shoulda waited for the meta to develop a bit more before buffing.
On February 26 2014 15:50 YyapSsap wrote: Its interesting to note that DK has been contacting Flash several times for his feedback with regards to balance according to his recent proleague interview.
I think Flash has emailed DK several times. And some of his suggestions were implemented. But I am pretty sure DK got the same suggestions from hundreds of pro and non-pro players (sight range, blink, etc).
On February 26 2014 16:07 moofang wrote: Really not sure the widow mine buff is needed. Already seeing steady increase in bio-mine compositions in pro-level PvT and in ladder PvT. Imo shoulda waited for the meta to develop a bit more before buffing.
Buffs aren't only to made to units to make them more used/common. Some buffs are made so the units does better vs other units or do better in their roles. Immortals got buffed even though they were common before their buff. Spores were buffed even when they were being made. Protoss got buff to their upgrades even though protoss were already upgrading.
Buffs to widows mines were done to increase their effectiveness in early harass (forcing protoss to be more defensive) and vs mass zealots comps that were increasingly more popular.
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
If protoss fails to do damage with oracles, they too fall far behind.
That's not true at all. There's been countless games where people open up Stargate oracle, get at most 1-2 SCV kills cause who can't, and it's a very simple templar transition that plays like a normal game. Zest vs Maru was the most recent one in Proleague. sOs vs Bomber in WCS is also an easy one to see. Those are just the ones off the top of my head, I'm sure other people can give you far more examples that you're gonna just ignore.
Well - strenght-wise that's true, but gameplay-wise that's not... So I guess you're both right..
If Protoss opens up with a Stargate it was an investment, and if it failed - true that Protoss is behind.. But - shouldn't it be that way ??
Also - don't forget how Revelation can really change the looks of the battles.. So Oracles have their prolonged usage though, despite not being a fighter unit..
Oracle still has at least some minimal (though it was shown quite a few times that minimal revelation role can really be pivital to the matchups as well) use after the beginning stages of the game
On February 26 2014 14:15 MyrMindservant wrote: Eh, I'm really disappointed they didn't try different approach to Hydras. Here's the idea I mentioned in another thread some time ago:
"Regarding Hydralisk, I think that it would be much better to buff their anti air range and/or HP, not DPS. Perhaps something like this: Air attack range increased from 5 to 6. (becomes 7 after range upgrade) HP increased from 80 to 90.
Anti air range is especially relevant because Zerg lacks good AA, except for spores. This would give them the same AA range as Queens, after you make range upgrade."
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
If protoss fails to do damage with oracles, they too fall far behind.
Depends on how you define "damage". Form recent games it seems that you don't necessarily need to kill a certain amount of SCVs for an oracle to pay off and not put you behind. Having map control and possibility to deny scouting for terran gives a lot of options to protoss at home, like taking a fast third and getting crucial tech out.
Flash vs. Parting in PL is also a good example because Parting's opening was a fast proxy oracle so it needed to do "even more damage" to pay off but at the start he didn't get a single SCV.
There is no real standard timing for a protoss third base like it is in TvZ where you expect to find a third between 6-7 minutes or else something is up (like 2 base mutas, or some roach-bane etc. aggression). So if you can't get an SCV or a reaper out you can never tell if he is doing some aggressive follow up, is he teching or is he taking a fast third base.
I suggest you watch this game:
There was also a similar game at IEM on Habitation station where protoss player (HerO or Classic) went for basically the same thing but they even went for a gold base instead of standard one.
On February 26 2014 15:50 YyapSsap wrote: Its interesting to note that DK has been contacting Flash several times for his feedback with regards to balance according to his recent proleague interview.
The idea to nerf MSC vision was suggested by a lot of people who play, cast or watch SC2 so it is not really shocking they finally went for it and tested it out.
I remember Flash saying he tried to get in contact with David Kim but was unable to do so (back then when he had some suggestions on how to change tanks to be better), so if he is finally in contact with him, that is great as far as I am concerned because DK himself said on that special episode of Meta that he is in contact with guys like Naniwa and ToD a lot so it is good if he also has a "terran representative" on his pro team.
Nice to hear that the Balance team is on the thinking again.. Hopefully they come out with a SH change in a good way.. Really pleased ATM, just hope I won't need to b*tch 2 days later, rofl..
OK - must say specifically that I really love the WM change, and that's mainly cause it affects the matchup on all levels on play and not just for the Pros.. Though maybe the lower levels of play don't matter much, think a lot more people will like SC2 if it's easier to play IMO.. Like - now there can possibly be some "alternatives" other than kiting like mad.. I mean - it will still be the kiting-as-mad thing, but it will work much better with the mines TBH, and that being the case vs especially heavy-Zealot compositions, which was the exact thing needed
The MSC change seems a bit drastic, but I guess it's ok, some army spread-up and a bit more scouting though could make it work well
And as for Hydras - don't know if the change is good or not, like seems to shut down some Protoss mid-game options harder, but what I'm optimistic about is - though the next thing is a SH nerf followup, Blizz finally showing some Zerg attention and love
It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
Agreed man, sorry for not understanding your point at the very first read..
Well the most important is the power of transition out of all this.. Now you could actually open up with mines and then decide what to do later on.. Though funny sounding, but you could actually make Mine into Sky-Terran work vs Protoss possible.. Tempest is still a big pain in the butt though..
Like I said however - it's not a Ghost-sight change, like - something that only pros will be able to operate with, but something that affects all the "mortals" as well
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
Definitely, the WM opening will be very popular because terrans finally have a unit that is flexible enough to deal with various P openings. Right now, it is marines/turrets vs oracle openings and marauders/tanks/bunkers vs blink openings so terrans are heavily dictated by Protosses. For blink, protoss will have to try to blink 1 stalker in to take the first shot and that will give terrans more time to react. Same with protoss zealot balls, they will have to send in a couple zealots to set off the mines like terrans do with marauders to zone out the templars. Flanking with templars also becomes more risky if you don't have obs in good positions.
i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
Agreed helps the Tempest identity crisis and just gives a little something that at least Protoss players can look forward in this patch.
Widow mine buff: Frankly I dont know. Not sure it is that efficient.
If it killed an Oracle it's cost is paid off x4, if it kills a Stalker, it's paid off x2, if it kills 3 workers it's paid off, if it kills a Zealot+does a little splash to other units, it's paid off. It's splash kills Sentries and High Templars. You need to get Robo and probably Cannons in your Mineral line. It will always pay off, all out of a structure that you will always get, because you want Medivacs/Vikings and all out of a structure that is known to just sit idle or used for scouting purpose. The only question is, how many of these buggers are you gonna build! Sidenote: Notice how Widow Mines now do 40 shield dmg splash, but only 35 shield dmg to the initial target. Looks a little silly IMO.
On February 26 2014 17:35 Drake wrote: i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
I'd rather they buff the Carrier but a better Tempest would be cool, too. That unit has grown on me.
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
The widow mine buff is not going to be some sort of failsafe against blink all ins as opposed to before.. you are really overestimating this buff.
On February 26 2014 17:35 Drake wrote: i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
Haven't watched the games, but does it actually make for more interesting games? Or is it just "bye bye spores, time for you to make more spores and deny vision more".
As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote: As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger.
On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote: As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger.
yeah cause that'll happen if the game slows down. Let's all just play chess instead right?
I guess you prefer having terrible terrible damage completely wipe out an army while you're macro'ing at home in the 1 second that you don't look at your army
Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote: All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now?
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed.
Colossus every game just like wings?
What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now.
No whine just honestly courious.
how does the patch change 2 base templar opening? Learn to scout with drones again or observer (currently it feels some protoss "forgot" how to do that, as it wasn't needed), leave the MSC at home. It is a defensive unit. They should also remove recall so it isn't that useful in offensive maneuvres anymore.
Being less greedy could also bei an option (going from 1 base and harassement into 2 base and then later)
If this forum had a mute function I'd use it right now. You come in here pretty much only whining "Terran too weak, Protoss too strong", go passive aggressive on someone who is slightly scared of the new widow mines and even drop some dumb balance suggestion while not considering why they were implemented in the first place. A slightly more positive attitude might be appropriate given that a negative one grants precisely 0 advantages.
By the way Protoss players aren't the only one forgetting techniques. There was a time when occasionally Terrans would walk out with 4 rax worth of marines after FEing to snipe a bunch of sentries. It took a good while until Polt showed that a pre stim moveout might be worth a shot against blink builds. I actually noticed MMA doing WM drops after expo to achieve the same a while earlier. So figure something out. It's a RTS.
didnt say only toss forget how to use this or that. Example: saw this awful game reality vs... symbol? Dunno the one that took over 2hrs. And the zerg continued to send locust waves over and over vs the terran mech army, but they didn't do a thing because of the PDDs. Same day I watched Stephanos Stream, and he just crushed similar engagements over and over again, by using Tank splash damage: he ran the locusts right next to the tank.
Btw I am sorry if my posts sound like whining, didn'T mean to, I am just glad they fixed a clear inbalance and I dont understand the whining in this thread from the toss, they say their race is now completely useless.
When I was in diaomond, I switched from T because whining alone doesn't make you better, to actually try if the other races really are imba and tried them out, since then I play random for the most part, so I think(!) I have some clue (btw a few weaks after I switched races I wasn't only diamond anymore, so at least I know how to play the game)
On February 26 2014 18:30 Faust852 wrote: Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
thats the funny thing in general here. One race always complains... oh now now it is unfair that is wayyy too strong - not really thinking about how to deal with it (or in that case that they already learned how to deal with it)- just because it changes the game a bit. We'll see if something changes.
For the Blink Timings (If they ever get changed), why can't it be like slow blink time at first and then a (cheap) upgrade later on? I think in mid/late game the actual time between blinks is fine, as it is already the case that zerglings always catch up with fleeing stalkers, making them slower... i dont know, doesn't sound right. Would be cool if blink is at first slow, and gets faster with a 2nd upgrade that needs... templar archives or so...
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote: As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger.
yeah cause that'll happen if the game slows down. Let's all just play chess instead right?
I guess you prefer having terrible terrible damage completely wipe out an army while you're macro'ing at home in the 1 second that you don't look at your army
We have a race in the game with a ton of such units, it's called Protoss. Call me when you see a successful stalker or sentry drop. Call me the next time when someone calls a roach vs roach or roach vs stalker battle "so exciting", just because it lasts 3times longer than a fight including bio or banelings.
But yeah, you probably want more units like the Colossus or the Immortal or the Ultralisk or the Thor in the game. They are soooo exciting, right? Everyone always talks about those great units, and noone has ever called a glascanon exciting, right?
Hell, Swarm Hosts are the best! Have you ever seen how long battles including SHs last? Firecake vs Mana, over 2hours of nonstop action with hardly any real units dying. AMAZING!!!!
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
WM and msc vision range buffs are fine. But hydralisks? They were already used in 80% of midgame PvZ, and they get buffed? It's like buffing storm because no one uses them in PvP lol. Void ray/templar style will be impossible to execute, but even if the toss goes colossi, forcing them out with the threat of hydras and then switching to mutas will be extremely effective. This change will definitely make ZvP zerg favoured.
Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
They were super hard to deal with in the Mineral line back then. It's more reasonable damage it will do now, but they're much, much stronger vs the army now.
It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it.
On February 26 2014 19:39 Nebuchad wrote: It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it.
I think protoss cant open 3stargate voidray anymore.
It will be a sad day. :p
Honestly protoss should be forced to open colossus more often, and then rush to StormLossus.
My guess is the meta might become Robo >into 2star >into templar
2star has to be the followup IMO due to mutas being a win button vs a player with no stargates/unprepared. Metagame will change, overall balance shouldn't. atleast I hope, as long as storm/collosus can still beat hydra armies then I see no problem with that change In fact I am fine with all the changes, happy to see buffs to other races rather than nerfs to toss (the MSC vision was needed)
On February 26 2014 19:39 Nebuchad wrote: It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it.
I think protoss cant open 3stargate voidray anymore.
It will be a sad day. :p
Honestly protoss should be forced to open colossus more often, and then rush to StormLossus.
My guess is the meta might become Robo >into 2star >into templar
2star has to be the followup IMO due to mutas being a win button vs a player with no stargates/unprepared. Metagame will change, overall balance shouldn't. atleast I hope, as long as storm/collosus can still beat hydra armies then I see no problem with that change In fact I am fine with all the changes, happy to see buffs to other races rather than nerfs to toss (the MSC vision was needed)
I agree that a colossus/stalker/storm army will still beat a hydra-based army. However, this brings two problems: 1- the first is that PvZ midgame meta will lose a lot of its variety, due to the impossibility of executing a void ray based play. David Kim has always stated that their aim was in increasing the possibilities in the game. While this hydra buff is useful in this sense in TvZ and ZvZ, it has the opposite effect in PvZ.
2- The tech choice of the protoss player becomes too predictable which allows the zerg to go for compositions which are very good against colossi instead, such as mutalisks, ultralisks, broodlords.
On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote: As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger.
yeah cause that'll happen if the game slows down. Let's all just play chess instead right?
I guess you prefer having terrible terrible damage completely wipe out an army while you're macro'ing at home in the 1 second that you don't look at your army
We have a race in the game with a ton of such units, it's called Protoss. Call me when you see a successful stalker or sentry drop. Call me the next time when someone calls a roach vs roach or roach vs stalker battle "so exciting", just because it lasts 3times longer than a fight including bio or banelings.
But yeah, you probably want more units like the Colossus or the Immortal or the Ultralisk or the Thor in the game. They are soooo exciting, right? Everyone always talks about those great units, and noone has ever called a glascanon exciting, right?
Hell, Swarm Hosts are the best! Have you ever seen how long battles including SHs last? Firecake vs Mana, over 2hours of nonstop action with hardly any real units dying. AMAZING!!!!
Your examples are flawed.
Roach vs Roach is boring because there's it's a mirror fight with one unit. No dynamic. No spells Instead Ling Bane is exciting to watch cause there's more a dynamic factor, baneling explosion. Still, Lings move so fast we see top pros make micro mistakes all the time, and 1 mistake into a bane can cost the game. Even if you raise the HP of Ling/Banes to slow down the fight, it will still involve intense micro and be fun to watch.
Roach vs Stalker is whatever simply due to blink micro. But Roach by itself has no wow factor. The roach player tries to rush and pick off single stalkers.
Swarm host sux simply due to continouse spawning of free units doing so much crazy damage
These examples are isolated cases, and don't defend the fact that Starcraft 2 is still very fast.
If you change the game design, like less clumping, then microing armies not only require whoever splits the best or has better positioning, but actual micro, and the attacker can actually not be so afraid to attack into a defender's advantage of pre-splitting, causeing a stalemate. If you increase the HP of all the units, and if current balance still holds, then battles with different dynamics/ armies with different units will be very exciting and micro intensive and don't just last 3 seconds where everything obliterated while you spam out aoe spells like storms and fungals.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
Though funny sounding, but you could actually make Mine into Sky-Terran work vs Protoss possible..
Sky Toss vs Sky Terran?! Stop stop stop...my penis can only get SO erect!
On February 26 2014 18:30 Faust852 wrote: Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
I don't understand why people keep saying this. It's making the WM stronger than it is currently, why does it matter how completely OP it was before?
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Hydra buff was probably needed; not sure if its the right change but that unit needs some buff or other.
MSC change FINALLY went through. I can't believe how long it took with almost everyone saying "if you need to nerf something, nerf the vision on this". That's a hell of a huge nerf though, fingers crossed there won't be unintended consequences.
Still not convinced by the mine thing. For all of the arguments that "oh it was stronger before and it wasn't a problem"...no, it was stronger before and it was very tricky to deal with, it wasn't "no problem". And that was with a longer-visioned MSC to help spot the drop coming into the base. Whether this change will be a problem I'm not sure; but I worry its going to really mess up openings given the importance of Zealot/HT to stop SCV pull all-ins.
Good that the more crazy proposals were left at the door. The Blink nerf was just absurd and the Tempest buff was completely the wrong way to go about answering the PvZ Swarm Host issue.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Stimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Stimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
You're right, but just as a sidenote; it's definitely possible to kite marines so that they do less damage than they would have if they weren't controlled at all. If you spend too much time running, and not enough time stopping to shoot, they will miss out on potential attacks and do less damage. It's true that you can't cancel attacks, but you will perform worse if you kite incorrectly.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Stimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
In terms of design, isn't the hydra superior to the marine then? Someone who kites hydras well is doing something more impressive than someone who kites marines... The problem is that hydras don't seem to need to kite much...
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
Um, Templar openings are absolutely superior. Colossus are much more easily hard countered, and the Templar tech path naturally opens up Blink/Charge/Upgrades. Templar are also much better for drop defense.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Stimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
You're right, but just as a sidenote; it's definitely possible to kite marines so that they do less damage than they would have if they weren't controlled at all. If you spend too much time running, and not enough time stopping to shoot, they will miss out on potential attacks and do less damage. It's true that you can't cancel attacks, but you will perform worse if you kite incorrectly.
sorry. Of course that's possible! I meant when you go too frequent attack/stop. And of course there is the issue that you run out of range as well.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Stimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
In terms of design, isn't the hydra superior to the marine then? Someone who kites hydras well is doing something more impressive than someone who kites marines... The problem is that hydras don't seem to need to kite much...
well, the problem is that kiting is not very efficient, if you only run for 0.2-0.5 seconds, while topterrans can nearly perform moving shots with marines. You just eat many more hits. Also true, due to roaches and lings tanking, you usually dont need them to kite so much (though this again means you are limited to also play like that: hydras only with buffer!)
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
Um, Templar openings are absolutely superior. Colossus are much more easily hard countered, and the Templar tech path naturally opens up Blink/Charge/Upgrades. Templar are also much better for drop defense.
Exactly, and now you have widow mines doing 80 damage to zealots so, pick your poison on your protoss opening now
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
They abandoned colossi opening because templar iss superior especially with the early thirds since with templars, you are only limited by your gas/mineral income. Unless you go double robo (which is a huge investment in the mid game), your colossi production is limited even with the extra income. Plus templars are also much better vs drops (single templar and cannon can hold off a drop while unprotected colossi with cannon cannot even though the colossi is much more expensive).
So no, protoss didn't abandon the colossi opening because they were losing too much to SCV pull.
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
Though funny sounding, but you could actually make Mine into Sky-Terran work vs Protoss possible..
Sky Toss vs Sky Terran?! Stop stop stop...my penis can only get SO erect!
On February 26 2014 18:30 Faust852 wrote: Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
I don't understand why people keep saying this. It's making the WM stronger than it is currently, why does it matter how completely OP it was before?
The very fun fact is that it wasn't OP. TvP isn't in T favor since 1 month after HOTS release, and the mine nerf came way after that.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
Um, that's being a little overdramatic lol
On February 26 2014 22:29 shivver wrote:
On February 26 2014 22:14 Chaggi wrote:
On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:
On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in
The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools.
I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
Um, Templar openings are absolutely superior. Colossus are much more easily hard countered, and the Templar tech path naturally opens up Blink/Charge/Upgrades. Templar are also much better for drop defense.
Exactly, and now you have widow mines doing 80 damage to zealots so, pick your poison on your protoss opening now
Isn't that the whole point of balance? Why should protoss have a build that is always advantageous even if your opponent knows the exact build you are doing. Terrans can't go ghosts if opponent is going colossi and can't go vikings if opponent is going templar.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Stimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
In terms of design, isn't the hydra superior to the marine then? Someone who kites hydras well is doing something more impressive than someone who kites marines... The problem is that hydras don't seem to need to kite much...
Yeah, kiting Hydras effectively is harder in the sense that it requires more precise timing, but the increase in performance you get out of it is also smaller. There's a limit too how fast you can kite them without cancling attacks, meaning that the potential skill ceiling is lower. Not necessarily bad design; it's just that it means kiting Hydras will usually make less of a difference than kiting marines. This is even more true if you take into account that Hydras are slower and will move less when kited. If you have to fall back with hydras, chances are higher that you will be caught up and killed anyway than with marines.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Well, you have oracle. And protoss have mass recall, warping, photons and nexus cannon against widow mines. So I don't see here any problems
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
Split second.... Just like the time 1 storm killed over 50 supply of Terran units due to reacting a split second too late.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
was he complaining about stormdrops? else your comment makes no sense...
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
We have Oracles that can do worse
at least the oracle makes it so you have some time enjoying the killing animatons one by one instead of one blue *puff*
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
was he complaining about stormdrops? else your comment makes no sense...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Well, it's actually the way it is, in some way. Otherwise we wouldn't need patch after patch of David Kim trying to nerf the current Protoss dominance.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Wow. You copy my sentences. good on you! Makes you come across as way more mature and intelligent than I thought you were!
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Whatever way you put it, reaction time to a storm drop is lower than to a mine drop. I also didn't use the words you are putting into my mouth.
On February 27 2014 00:45 beefITek wrote: they should nerf oracle speed and storm energy cost .. it is ridiculous that 2 HT can drop 4 storms then merge into an archon ........
It's also ridiculous to have a unit that costs 50/150 to spawn with 50 energy wait for 3 minutes before it can attack once and that is it. Archon morph takes time too.
I dont get all this mine drop OP talk. In the last month we saw at least 3 T do this in SPL/GSL and it just sucks. Hell, even the german P Lilbow could defend this.
Imo we need a few new maps and then just wait until the new meta settles in with the new patch.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Wow. You copy my sentences. good on you! Makes you come across as way more mature and intelligent than I thought you were!
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Whatever way you put it, reaction time to a storm drop is lower than to a mine drop. I also didn't use the words you are putting into my mouth.
So you did not say that if a toss loses probes to widow mines he is a bad player while then refering to the power of storm drops?
I just want to hint at the fact that I didn't even say widow mine drops will definitely be imbalanced. I just strongly disagree with the way some ppl (and especially you) dismiss any kind of discussion about the change from a toss player's perspective.
edit:
On February 27 2014 00:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote: I dont get all this mine drop OP talk. In the last month we saw at least 3 T do this in SPL/GSL and it just sucks. Hell, even the german P Lilbow could defend this.
Imo we need a few new maps and then just wait until the new meta settles in with the new patch.
Memories of a time past (before the change to the widowmine splash damage). I don't think anyone complains about widowmine drops in their current state
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Wow. You copy my sentences. good on you! Makes you come across as way more mature and intelligent than I thought you were!
On February 27 2014 00:28 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:23 vthree wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:19 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:16 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:
On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Whatever way you put it, reaction time to a storm drop is lower than to a mine drop. I also didn't use the words you are putting into my mouth.
So you did not say that if a toss loses probes to widow mines he is a bad player while then refering to the power of storm drops?
I just want to hint at the fact that I didn't even say widow mine drops will definitely be imbalanced. I just strongly disagree with the way some ppl (and especially you) dismiss any kind of discussion about the change from a toss player's perspective.
Because it's stupid to compare the two? Storm drops come in mid game the moment Terran is droping, taking his third, harrassing, kiting etc. Mine drop hits when the Protoss is macroing peacefully on two bases. Not to mention that a mine does nothing with 1 cannon in each mineral line (which was almost standard before the mine nerf).
The issue lies elsewhere. Will Protoss players still go for templar openings?
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
On February 27 2014 00:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote: I dont get all this mine drop OP talk. In the last month we saw at least 3 T do this in SPL/GSL and it just sucks. Hell, even the german P Lilbow could defend this.
Imo we need a few new maps and then just wait until the new meta settles in with the new patch.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Wow. You copy my sentences. good on you! Makes you come across as way more mature and intelligent than I thought you were!
On February 27 2014 00:28 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:23 vthree wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:19 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:16 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:
On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Whatever way you put it, reaction time to a storm drop is lower than to a mine drop. I also didn't use the words you are putting into my mouth.
So you did not say that if a toss loses probes to widow mines he is a bad player while then refering to the power of storm drops?
I just want to hint at the fact that I didn't even say widow mine drops will definitely be imbalanced. I just strongly disagree with the way some ppl (and especially you) dismiss any kind of discussion about the change from a toss player's perspective.
On February 27 2014 00:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote: I dont get all this mine drop OP talk. In the last month we saw at least 3 T do this in SPL/GSL and it just sucks. Hell, even the german P Lilbow could defend this.
Imo we need a few new maps and then just wait until the new meta settles in with the new patch.
Memories of a time past (before the change to the widowmine splash damage). I don't think anyone complains about widowmine drops in their current state
Sure, Protoss will lose probes if mines get in the mineral line. But 12 probes to a single mine? Yeah, that is just bad play. I mean hellions are OP too if they get in the base and you line up your workers.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
And even when Zergs learned this, they were still a very powerful tool, weren't they?
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Wow. You copy my sentences. good on you! Makes you come across as way more mature and intelligent than I thought you were!
On February 27 2014 00:28 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:23 vthree wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:19 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:16 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:
On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote: [quote] Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Whatever way you put it, reaction time to a storm drop is lower than to a mine drop. I also didn't use the words you are putting into my mouth.
So you did not say that if a toss loses probes to widow mines he is a bad player while then refering to the power of storm drops?
I just want to hint at the fact that I didn't even say widow mine drops will definitely be imbalanced. I just strongly disagree with the way some ppl (and especially you) dismiss any kind of discussion about the change from a toss player's perspective.
Because it's stupid to compare the two? Storm drops come in mid game the moment Terran is droping, taking his third, harrassing, kiting etc. Mine drop hits when the Protoss is macroing peacefully on two bases. Not to mention that a mine does nothing with 1 cannon in each mineral line (which was almost standard before the mine nerf).
The issue lies elsewhere. Will Protoss players still go for templar openings?
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Wow. You copy my sentences. good on you! Makes you come across as way more mature and intelligent than I thought you were!
On February 27 2014 00:28 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:23 vthree wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:19 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:16 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:
On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote: [quote] Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Whatever way you put it, reaction time to a storm drop is lower than to a mine drop. I also didn't use the words you are putting into my mouth.
So you did not say that if a toss loses probes to widow mines he is a bad player while then refering to the power of storm drops?
I just want to hint at the fact that I didn't even say widow mine drops will definitely be imbalanced. I just strongly disagree with the way some ppl (and especially you) dismiss any kind of discussion about the change from a toss player's perspective.
edit:
On February 27 2014 00:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote: I dont get all this mine drop OP talk. In the last month we saw at least 3 T do this in SPL/GSL and it just sucks. Hell, even the german P Lilbow could defend this.
Imo we need a few new maps and then just wait until the new meta settles in with the new patch.
Memories of a time past (before the change to the widowmine splash damage). I don't think anyone complains about widowmine drops in their current state
Sure, Protoss will lose probes if mines get in the mineral line. But 12 probes to a single mine? Yet, that is just bad play. I mean hellions are OP too if they get in the base and you line up your workers.
the example with the 12 dead workers was an uncouthy remark and obviously not a claim that this would be the standard. jeez.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
And even when Zergs learned this, they were still a very powerful tool, weren't they?
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Wow. You copy my sentences. good on you! Makes you come across as way more mature and intelligent than I thought you were!
On February 27 2014 00:28 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:23 vthree wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:19 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:16 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:
On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:
On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote: [quote] Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
12?
Wow. What do you do, target them all together on one mineral patch? Show me the replay please.
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a medivac coming into your main, a mine burrowing and targeting, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Minedrops are a big commitment to terran and if you are a slow protoss you can't blame game balance.
Compare this to a storm drop .
My response; if you need over 8 seconds to recognise a Warp Prism coming into your main, a templar dropping and casting storm, well. Haha - you deserve to lose stuff. Templar drops are a big commitment to protossand if you are a slow terran you can't blame game balance.
Templar drops still require slightly faster reaction...
Don't take everything so serious, I am not saying storm drops are super easy to defy or anything. I am just getting a bit tired of these: All Toss has is so hard to hold while all we can do is so weak you must be really bad if it does damage-arguments
Whatever way you put it, reaction time to a storm drop is lower than to a mine drop. I also didn't use the words you are putting into my mouth.
So you did not say that if a toss loses probes to widow mines he is a bad player while then refering to the power of storm drops?
I just want to hint at the fact that I didn't even say widow mine drops will definitely be imbalanced. I just strongly disagree with the way some ppl (and especially you) dismiss any kind of discussion about the change from a toss player's perspective.
edit:
On February 27 2014 00:53 gingerfluffmuff wrote: I dont get all this mine drop OP talk. In the last month we saw at least 3 T do this in SPL/GSL and it just sucks. Hell, even the german P Lilbow could defend this.
Imo we need a few new maps and then just wait until the new meta settles in with the new patch.
Memories of a time past (before the change to the widowmine splash damage). I don't think anyone complains about widowmine drops in their current state
Sure, Protoss will lose probes if mines get in the mineral line. But 12 probes to a single mine? Yeah, that is just bad play. I mean hellions are OP too if they get in the base and you line up your workers.
Heck yea man, and it's glorious when someone lines them up! Plenty of ways to die in SC2, that's the beauty.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
And even when Zergs learned this, they were still a very powerful tool, weren't they?
Of course they were. Why wouldn't they be?
but I think that was the point of the discussion. They might have a strong role in the metagame.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
And even when Zergs learned this, they were still a very powerful tool, weren't they?
Of course they were. Why wouldn't they be?
but I think that was the point of the discussion. They might have a strong role in the metagame.
Having an effect on the metagame and claiming that vikings and mines will make attacking Terran completely out of the question are not really the same thing though. One is a general assumption with a pretty reasonable basis, the other is a kind of silly theorycraft that was already disproved in another matchup when the same complaint was made.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
And even when Zergs learned this, they were still a very powerful tool, weren't they?
Of course they were. Why wouldn't they be?
but I think that was the point of the discussion. They might have a strong role in the metagame.
Going back to the very first post you quoted, I think what he said actually can become a problem.
wol late game terran with heavy ghost marauder Viking is incredibly powerful due to the obs sniping and cloak ghosts emp everything and stim a move in
Widow mine might put more focus on "abuse" over the lack of less vulnerable/solid cloak reveal unit for protoss and might be problematic in the future.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
Zealots and lings work differently though, you can't really burrow your mines under your bio army against lings because their speed makes it possible to wrap around the bio army before the mines detonate causing huge friendly fire to the terran army, this is obviously even worse when fighting on creep. To offset ling mobility mines are often placed ahead of the army, which makes it possible to set them off with smaller squads of lings.
Zealots in comparison are fewer and less mobile, they cannot swarm the terran army like lings can and lose most of their mobility after the first charge forward. This makes kiting zealots into mines that are below the terran army or even slightly behind it a much more valid tactic.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
And even when Zergs learned this, they were still a very powerful tool, weren't they?
Of course they were. Why wouldn't they be?
but I think that was the point of the discussion. They might have a strong role in the metagame.
Having an effect on the metagame and claiming that vikings and mines will make attacking Terran completely out of the question are not really the same thing though. One is a general assumption with a pretty reasonable basis, the other is a kind of silly theorycraft that was already disproved in another matchup when the same complaint was made.
oh well, yes. Yet I believe Bagi was not arguing Moobla's originial point, just that it is reasonable to assume that mines cannot be triggered very easily with stray units. Also I think those complaints about "impossible to destroy mines when the army sits above them" were hardly made in a reasonable argument in TvZ. That it is not as easy as "just trigger them with lings", sure, but not that the Terran army becomes "unbeatable" through that.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
And even when Zergs learned this, they were still a very powerful tool, weren't they?
Of course they were. Why wouldn't they be?
but I think that was the point of the discussion. They might have a strong role in the metagame.
Going back to the very first post you quoted, I think what he said actually can become a problem.
wol late game terran with heavy ghost marauder Viking is incredibly powerful due to the obs sniping and cloak ghosts emp everything and stim a move in
Widow mine might put more focus on "abuse" over the lack of less vulnerable/solid cloak reveal unit for protoss and might be problematic in the future.
I guess we will just have to see how it goes.
Protoss has 3 revealers; Cannons, Oracles and Observers Cannons are fine for defense, building a cannon farm at 10 range of a Plantary might not be ideal. Observers are good detectors but fragile and have lower range, Oracles are highly mobile, have better detection range, can use revelation, but are very taxing to control.
I am not sure if lategame GhostVikingScan becomes a problem in the metagame in the form of MineVikingScan, it might, we'll have to see. It is a valid complaint, which I cannot answer to just yet.
I am however of the opinion no adjusting in stats should be done to Protoss' anti-cloak until people really play around with a small number (3/4) of Oracles in lategame, those might be the answer.
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
I'm having déjà vu, seems to me Zerg players made the exact same complaint about widow mines when HotS first came out and ended up learning how to send out a few units ahead of the army to trigger mines. If they could accomplish it with low HP, low range units, there's no reason at all why Protoss can't accomplish the same thing with much higher HP, higher range units.
Zealots and lings work differently though, you can't really burrow your mines under your bio army against lings because their speed makes it possible to wrap around the bio army before the mines detonate causing huge friendly fire to the terran army, this is obviously even worse when fighting on creep. To offset ling mobility mines are often placed ahead of the army, which makes it possible to set them off with smaller squads of lings.
Zealots in comparison are fewer and less mobile, they cannot swarm the terran army like lings can and lose most of their mobility after the first charge forward. This makes kiting zealots into mines that are below the terran army or even slightly behind it a much more valid tactic.
Positional wars! Sounds good to me! Ranged Collosus/Storm/Blink Stalkers can pick of mines that go to far forward, but mines with bio is really strong. Bio can't rush forward as fast as vs Zerg, but gets a more powerful position to reinforce :D
On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote: I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step. A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon. D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one. E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
aaah its that simple :D Well then, I wonder why there were only 3 terrans at the GSL CODE S RO 32? Ah i remember: because it simply takes much more action to pull of then to defend, it doesn't do enough damage and if you go for a medivac timing, bait out the cannon 1 min before, you have like a very small window if T goes colossi -> you better leave again soon, if T goes storm, you better don't let these lightnings go down or you have lost your (at this point of time) expensive army and if Toss has any clue how Terran works, they could then just walk over you or freely expand.
In theorycraft you may be right, but let's not forget that while all that happens T needs to macro up behind (making buildings, deciding how much damage he can do and if he goes for an allin or expanding or whatever), better scout the minimap if no counteraction is going on etc. And as not everybody is a 400 apm korean Terran, I would like to be in the toss position when Terran trys this early aggression thing you are talking about
(btw i switched from T to P or more to random and it actually IS easier to defend then to pull of)
BTW #2: all the things you are trying to say(focusing things, splitting armies drops to pull the attention etc), are the things you need to learn when you want to go out of bronze with macro builds, or in other words it is the Terran 1x1 -> therefore, every Terran knows how to theorycraft-win a game, but somehow micro is harder to do, then just thinking about it and therefore this is the reason why terrans already have 2x the apm in lower leagues and still are in bronze cause there it takes that much more effort to win vs a protoss (as you pointed out perfectly, it is JUST needed to do this and that, multitask a bit, micro a bit, focus a bit, keep the toss busy etc - yeah simple, while Toss is still save if...)
besides that, some things you say are just untrue, a 1-1-1 wouldn't work against the cannon anymore
1. Really its harder on the attacker than the defender I didn't Know that....Oh wait yeah I did its called a DEFENDERS ADVANTAGE. 2. Yeah of course you have to learn to split your army, but know you don't have to learn to do that to get into higher league unfortunately. There are plenty of players that have made it diamond masters just off of cheese and timing builds. 3. Oh course you have to macro at home if your pushing same rule applies for ever race not just terrans. 4. Of course its harder to do it than it is in theory but not being able to do it personally doesn't mean its unbalanced it just means you need to get better. 5. You have KNOW IDEA rather Terrans or Protosses apm is higher. Nor does apm relate to skill in any way. Anybody can sit and spam in the early game and fake a high apm is how effect your moves per minute are not how many of them you do. 6. Up unitl the last few months timing attacks and all-ins were used alot how many times do you remember seeing scv pulls or big 10-12 minuted pushes. I remember watching forgg, MVP, MMA, Taeja and many other Terrans bust out big 8-12 minute pushes. It wasn't until about october-November last year after the hellbat nerf when the pushes started to calm down some. 7. Everything I said above except for the late game micro doesn't require all that much skill at all to do. Stimming in and out to bait a photon overcharge a little bit before you plan to attack not hard. Stimming in then dropping up into the main isn't all that hard. Nor is just focus firing down a small army and running in to the main. 8. Its not easy for toss either when the Terran is playing right, they have to split their army correctly defend multiple locations, continue to macro, and find some way of applying pressure or far to far behind. However, Alot of terrans will over commit to attack a 2base templar tech protoss and lose. Any race turtled up on 2bases just needs to be contained while you macro. 9. If a Protoss opens colossi you should already know how to deal with this. Before Protoss started opening Templar and opened colossi every game the win rate was in favor of Terran it turned around when Protoss started opening Templar. 10. And I suppose you would also be comfortable saying everytime their were low numbers of Protoss in code S it was because of imbalance.
1 funny we now talk about how defenders advantage should work, because since the beginning of SC2 there are SEVERAL Cheeses/Allins where the attack is easier to execute then to defend, even if scouted 2. i was talking macro builds, ofc you can get to diamond and even beyond with no skill, unhonest play, cheese or whatever you may call it 4-true 5. well i have several thousand games in SC2Gears analyzed so I know what I am facing basically. But true, APM or EPM doesn't say everything on how much effort it takes a race to play because it doesn't show thought processes etc. 6. pretty much that was because it is the most effective way to beat a toss, it was already telling a lot when that strat became common. such desperation strats were shown, because there were no many other ways to beat a straight up game against a protoss as a korean (!) pro(!) - so why should anybody beyond that level even bother... 8 i did never say it ever gets easy for toss, just not THAT hard in some(!) cases. 10. when there were low numbers of toss, there were very viable openings for terrans and Toss didn't know how to defend- some got nerfed, some toss learned. on the other Hand terran learned pretty fast how to deal with Toss early aggression (4 Gate etc) So yes, early game Terran was strong if not inbalanced. Blizzard changed that, thats why it showed endgame weaknesses as terran, thats why in the end of WOL we saw lots of PvZ... if you still remember
On February 26 2014 11:29 seak99 wrote: wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss.
No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told.
Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
more like a lot of sour terran looking for more freebies to me.
Most of the terrans' nerfs in HOTS were meant to address TvZ, never for TvP. So take your whine elsewhere. PO, MSC vision, stalker blink all-in exist since the release of HOTS. When Protoss was not doing well, nobody complained about them. Now everybody like you just jumped into the bandwagon and balance whine, lol.
Thanks for making my case for me
Sometimes it takes a bit of time before a strategy or unit is utilized properly. Hence it may have been in the game a while but never been nerfed.
People have been complaining about protoss for a long time. Some of it warranted, some of it not. But David Kim is doing this to balance at the top level, so it doesn't matter for the rest of us gamers right
its not the terrans fault if protoss take so long to learn how to use their tools, is it? That it was there before doesnt make it less strong, it just tells about how slow some races adapt to new technolgies :D (no racism intended) And it was good blizzard waited a bit (but in this case way too long, as it was very soon very clear that some strats are too strong or that it is too strong that you don't know which of the many vaible strats your opponent may choose) to see the metagame evolve. Now the problem (as stated above) isn't that units in general are imba, it is that you can never know what will hit you, so there are TOO many good/viable (but not imba) strats you should/need to prepare for. So either you cut some corners and don't prepare for some strats, but eco a lot ("play greedy" is a commonly used term for that, although misused) and its like a coinflip: you are ahead or on par with your oponent OR the proxy oracle, hidden dt shrine, blink push or whatever hits you in your face. Or you prepare against anything that might come and are behind from the start. Watching the TvP Proleague game of Flash vs Stork flash was preparing for oracles and so on, but was then behind in other tech, only a few secs of meant the world here and he died.
I can't help but laugh when a Protoss complains about mine drops.
Mines used to one shot workers just a few months ago, and the strategy was neither dominant nor particularly effective unless some bronze-league hero tried to kill it with workers.
Also if you want to complain about widow mine drops please let me hear your thoughts on the oracle. Not only will an oracle do game ending damage at 5:30, it will also kill a pack of marines and isn't even a guaranteed loss if perfectly deflected. The mere existence of the oracle has hamstrung every Terran build since the patch, and is honestly one of the major reasons why all the other all-ins and builds are so dangerous.
It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increasing the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
Stimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
You're right, but just as a sidenote; it's definitely possible to kite marines so that they do less damage than they would have if they weren't controlled at all. If you spend too much time running, and not enough time stopping to shoot, they will miss out on potential attacks and do less damage. It's true that you can't cancel attacks, but you will perform worse if you kite incorrectly.
...that is true for all range units, isn't it? A BW devourer had an attack cooldown of 100 frames, equivalent to an SC2 attack cooldown of 5.625 game seconds. If you moved for longer than it needed to before firing, you were potentially missing out on damage output. If (purely hypothetically) marines got a damage buff, I expect most terrans, for the same reason, would prefer +1 damage to a base cooldown of around 0.75 or even 0.70. Obviously, faster units are more likely to miss out on damage if they stop firing for longer than necessary, so I agree, but the difference in damage point gives more leeway to marines than ranged units that hit later in their animation.
On February 26 2014 22:39 Ghanburighan wrote: In terms of design, isn't the hydra superior to the marine then? Someone who kites hydras well is doing something more impressive than someone who kites marines... The problem is that hydras don't seem to need to kite much...
If they stay still, just an increase in rate of fire (decrease in cooldown) means they can deal more damage while staying put, but a direct damage (per hit) increase instead would be better. Yes, interaction vs an opposing unit's armour values upgrades etc. need to be considered but it won't affect how well or how poorly you can micro them while still doing damage. With more damage per hit, you can flee as often as you can now, but deal more damage. With a faster hit rate, you MUST start moving away more often in order to maintain this increased damage output while still escaping. You will likely end up staying on the spot more often as a result and it is just more taxing and spammy to actually hit and run at that rate and means that lamely staying on the spot to maximise damage output is more tempting. For game design and for the entertainment of people actually playing as zerg, that is bad. When you have to worry about a lot of splash damage, you do not want buffs to your units to discourage movement. As pointed out, the instant hit effect of marines having a damage point of zero means you do basically have the full length of the marine attack cooldown to move during.
the WM buff will literally break PvT, templar opener will not be viable anymore because of the splash of widow mines vs chargelots now, this will be a big problem and will also bring lots of SCV pulls because the protoss will have to go collosus opener.
although I approve of the widowmine damage...I feel like although it buffs a "mech" unit, it will be more used with Bio in tvp instead of mech. It also feels like hellbats are just getting phased out in tvp even more because then it comes down to "do I want hellbats to deal with chargelots, or widowmines to try and deal with everything". was hoping for a buff to another unit in mech I guess...most notably the tank.
On February 27 2014 02:52 NayASC wrote: the WM buff will literally break PvT, templar opener will not be viable anymore because of the splash of widow mines vs chargelots now, this will be a big problem and will also bring lots of SCV pulls because the protoss will have to go collosus opener.
lol, Templar openings will still be viable. Just have to use Observers a bit more carefully and not clump up Zealots so much. Zerg players have learned how to deal with Widow Mines, we can too.
These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough.
On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote: These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough.
I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now?
On February 26 2014 19:39 Nebuchad wrote: It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it.
The three changes are big, mate. It will take about 2 - 3 months before the game settles into it's new form. Basically, DK has thrown some big stones into the SC2 pond and it will take a while for the ripples to settle.
The Hydra buff, IIRC, is comparable to a +1 attack buff. Although, DK in his notes indicates that this is primarily for TvZ, I think it will prove to be more effective in PvZ. The WM buff will make a big difference in PvT play. Protoss should expect a fair few losses in the coming months as we start to learn how to deal with all this. A lot of settled builds will be tweaked or removed.
I do hope, in time, that they will return the MSC vision to 11 (this really peeves me off). And if SCV pulls once again become dominant in PvT, heck we may even finally see that Stalker buff I have been wanting for well over 2 years now. :D
But, yeah. Interesting times ahead. Whatever happens, I hope they leave the game well alone for the next 3 months at least.
On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote: These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough.
I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now?
Hydras will do the exact same thing they do now, only they will kill zealots and non-blink stalkers slightly faster. They will still die to chargelots with FF, still die to colossus, still die to rays when they hit critical mass, still die to storm, still be generally overpriced and all around shit.
Queens are the best zerg AA now and will be so on saturday. The hydra buff will change nothing with how ZvP is played. Protoss who are up in arms about this either have no idea how this affects them(it doesn't) or are just not very well informed about the game. This has to be the most overrated change of all, the mine change is far more impactful.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
LOL. A protoss player says " Enough. No more nerf." Sorry. I don't think the nerf is enough.
On February 27 2014 02:53 fireforce7 wrote: although I approve of the widowmine damage...I feel like although it buffs a "mech" unit, it will be more used with Bio in tvp instead of mech. It also feels like hellbats are just getting phased out in tvp even more because then it comes down to "do I want hellbats to deal with chargelots, or widowmines to try and deal with everything". was hoping for a buff to another unit in mech I guess...most notably the tank.
The mine is buffed with bio in mind; there've been some games where people use mines vs detectionless Protoss and put on massive pressure by having a good splash weapon when retreating vs Zealots.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
LOL. A protoss player says " Enough. No more nerf." Sorry. I don't think the nerf is enough.
LOL. A terran player says "No, nerf Toss into oblivion!" Sorry, I don't think more nerfs are needed. What else do you seriously want to make the game balanced?
Plus, where does he say that this is enough of a nerf?
EDIT: Upon further inspection this post was in poor taste, but posts like the above are really frustrating to read.
On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote: Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
LOL. A protoss player says " Enough. No more nerf." Sorry. I don't think the nerf is enough.
LOL. A terran player says "No, nerf Toss into oblivion!" Sorry, I don't think more nerfs are needed. What else do you seriously want to make the game balanced?
Plus, where does he say that this is enough of a nerf?
Only time will tell if it's not enough or too much, not some theory crafting.
On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote: These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough.
I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now?
Hydras will do the exact same thing they do now, only they will kill zealots and non-blink stalkers slightly faster. They will still die to chargelots with FF, still die to colossus, still die to rays when they hit critical mass, still die to storm, still be generally overpriced and all around shit.
Queens are the best zerg AA now and will be so on saturday. The hydra buff will change nothing with how ZvP is played. Protoss who are up in arms about this either have no idea how this affects them(it doesn't) or are just not very well informed about the game. This has to be the most overrated change of all, the mine change is far more impactful.
lol this is such nonsense as well. The change might not be huge but it definately matters for the effectiveness of hydra's. Hydra's will be better, hydra timings will be harder to stop and voidrays will be easier to deal with by hydra's. I don't think it will offset PvZ too much but simply stating it doesn't change a thing is completely moronic.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base.
However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately.
It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays.
Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game.
On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote: These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough.
I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now?
Hydras will do the exact same thing they do now, only they will kill zealots and non-blink stalkers slightly faster. They will still die to chargelots with FF, still die to colossus, still die to rays when they hit critical mass, still die to storm, still be generally overpriced and all around shit.
Queens are the best zerg AA now and will be so on saturday. The hydra buff will change nothing with how ZvP is played. Protoss who are up in arms about this either have no idea how this affects them(it doesn't) or are just not very well informed about the game. This has to be the most overrated change of all, the mine change is far more impactful.
lol this is such nonsense as well. The change might not be huge but it definately matters for the effectiveness of hydra's. Hydra's will be better, hydra timings will be harder to stop and voidrays will be easier to deal with by hydra's. I don't think it will offset PvZ too much but simply stating it doesn't change a thing is completely moronic.
Actually it isn't, but I get that vulgar assertions are easier to make than real points, so that's ok. I never said hydras would not be better, I said that the gameplay won't change as a result. I guess time will tell. Tell you what, let's meet back up here in two months or so and we'll see how it turned out.
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base.
However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately.
It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays.
Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game.
And this forces terrans into uneconomical builds so tvp is just playing from behind from the early game into a ridiculous late game. And if you for instance gamble with an early 3rd cc and it doesn't work out because of the millions of allins protoss has, they call you greedy while protoss can take a fast third and tech behind it without producing units............ All of that made possible by just clicking on your nexus. This would be fine if they'd get rid of asymmetrical balance and fixed late game tvp.
Is this on the ptr? A test video of WM vs probes/zealots/stalkers with current damage and new damage compared would be more valuable than 20 pages of theory craft
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base.
However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately.
It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays.
Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game.
And this forces terrans into uneconomical builds so tvp is just playing from behind from the early game into a ridiculous late game. And if you for instance gamble with an early 3rd cc and it doesn't work out because of the millions of allins protoss has, they call you greedy while protoss can take a fast third and tech behind it without producing units............ All of that made possible by just clicking on your nexus. This would be fine if they'd get rid of asymmetrical balance and fixed late game tvp.
On February 27 2014 04:25 Lobotomist wrote: Is this on the ptr? A test video of WM vs probes/zealots/stalkers with current damage and new damage compared would be more valuable than 20 pages of theory craft
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote: I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late
Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base.
However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately.
It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays.
Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game.
And this forces terrans into uneconomical builds so tvp is just playing from behind from the early game into a ridiculous late game. And if you for instance gamble with an early 3rd cc and it doesn't work out because of the millions of allins protoss has, they call you greedy while protoss can take a fast third and tech behind it without producing units............ All of that made possible by just clicking on your nexus. This would be fine if they'd get rid of asymmetrical balance and fixed late game tvp.
How about dealing damage with medivac + stim.
how about clicking on the nexus+storm and some zealots
On February 27 2014 01:14 vthree wrote: Sure, Protoss will lose probes if mines get in the mineral line. But 12 probes to a single mine? Yeah, that is just bad play. I mean hellions are OP too if they get in the base and you line up your workers.
No it's not a bad play, it means late reaction, or more precise - a bad or not good execution of a good play..
It's hard to notice when is too late to pull probes - sometimes you leave 1 probe and pull the rest, sometimes it's even better if you did nothing in the first place.. As he says - it's true - if you're late a split second at running away - Probes clump up as every single unit in the game that is on move command
So yah - don't bash him up for that - happens.. The issue with that is - you better do nothing and lose like 4 probes instead of much more cause of being a bit late, so that's THE problem.. Against storms you will lose your Marines regardless if you play bad or don't play.. This is different - Mines chase the target farther than they are initiated so a "snowball" effect is possible if you run away but not far enough.. Same problem can have the Zerg as well with the HSMs.. only that the difference is - the target is highlighted so you can click it and run away..
He's not whining, he's just telling a point.. and some experiences in the past
Which is overall a unit-desing problem on a design level - the game that treats the workers same as light units overall..
True that the pros of the change are way bigger than cons (or at least tend to be) and overall It's way better like this with the change, but he's not just whining or trolling, but actually he's having a valid point there..
And he didn't mention Hellions, so don't mention that.. Both players have to control the units in that case, here, that's not the case
I'm unfortunately unable to write a comment in the next few hours, but if anyone is willing to do so on my behalf, then this youtube link should be useful:
On February 27 2014 09:21 seak99 wrote: Just gotta ask.
Did the mine do more damage to protoss units before it got its most recent nerf
Or will it do more damage to protoss units now with the slight buff on splash damage.
It did alot less damage because the nerf was to splash and protoss units are so big it did not realy change anything about how the mine affects zelots. The mine nerf realy only changed how the mine hits lings,banes, and stacked air units ie mutas. I guess it also effected reines somewhat. The buff to + shield will mean the mine can kill units that before would only take a minor hit from it, it will also do alot more damage to the fewer unit hits with Nerfed splash but buffed+shield dmg than it ever would have with the old splash.
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
I'm not sure if that's realy the case, maybe a mine hit can kill the msc and shut down the blink allin but mines already one shot stalkers yet arn't that good against blink stalkers because you can use blink to dodge mine hits,(if you have good micro). I remember a game with parting were he blink all ined, the terran had three or so mines and yet he did not lose a single stalker because he would activate the mines then right as they would hit the stalker he would blink out of the way.
On February 27 2014 11:08 washikie wrote:Dont quote me on this but i think it can now one shot a ms core to, which is prity big because it will make bad control of the ms core vs some terran opens a much bigger deal, especially with vision nerf.
Damage to primary target hasn't changed. It's still 125 (+35 to shields).
On February 27 2014 09:21 seak99 wrote: Just gotta ask.
Did the mine do more damage to protoss units before it got its most recent nerf
Or will it do more damage to protoss units now with the slight buff on splash damage.
It did alot less damage because the nerf was to splash and protoss units are so big it did not realy change anything about how the mine affects zelots. The mine nerf realy only changed how the mine hits lings,banes, and stacked air units ie mutas. I guess it also effected reines somewhat. The buff to + shield will mean the mine can kill units that before would only take a minor hit from it, it will also do alot more damage to the fewer unit hits with Nerfed splash but buffed+shield dmg than it ever would have with the old splash. Dont quote me on this but i think it can now one shot a ms core to, which is prity big because it will make bad control of the ms core vs some terran opens a much bigger deal, especially with vision nerf.
The change is only for splash. I think it will help with zealot heavy comps mostly and a bit with blink play.
I'm unfortunately unable to write a comment in the next few hours, but if anyone is willing to do so on my behalf, then this youtube link should be useful:
This is not a bug; its a feature. Units have a certain "momentum". Hydras as well as Stalkers have a pretty high damage point value. That means, they take a few moments to fire after the acquire a target. While this is happening they float closer to the target. If you don't want to risk loosing your units to Mines like this, you have to carefully move them closer by moving in with small steps or by moving along a tangent and not directly towards the mine.
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
On February 27 2014 11:08 washikie wrote:Dont quote me on this but i think it can now one shot a ms core to, which is prity big because it will make bad control of the ms core vs some terran opens a much bigger deal, especially with vision nerf.
Damage to primary target hasn't changed. It's still 125 (+35 to shields).
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
Good changes for ladder, far less PvPs for me to play . But now the round of 8 of every major tournament will be a contest between the top 4 zergs and the top 4 terrans. A lot of protoss pros will be out on the street soon enough and the constant TvZ will get boring . Oh well, good changes overall. Really wanted the blink nerf to get through, really seal the deal and kill any hope protoss will now have of winning anything.
On February 27 2014 17:22 MrLightning wrote: Good changes for ladder, far less PvPs for me to play . But now the round of 8 of every major tournament will be a contest between the top 4 zergs and the top 4 terrans. A lot of protoss pros will be out on the street soon enough and the constant TvZ will get boring . Oh well, good changes overall. Really wanted the blink nerf to get through, really seal the deal and kill any hope protoss will now have of winning anything.
WHAT?
The game is so weird atm there is no top 4 T/Z in any tournament to fear, nor do I think Toss winrates will plummet with 40%.
On February 27 2014 17:22 MrLightning wrote: Good changes for ladder, far less PvPs for me to play . But now the round of 8 of every major tournament will be a contest between the top 4 zergs and the top 4 terrans. A lot of protoss pros will be out on the street soon enough and the constant TvZ will get boring . Oh well, good changes overall. Really wanted the blink nerf to get through, really seal the deal and kill any hope protoss will now have of winning anything.
Wow. I guess you took the current state of the game as it should be. I would worry though, cause it could easily happen that even after the patch more changes are needed to get help T get back on track.
changes seem very fine. not sure if the widowmine change is a bit too good against mass chargelot style but i guess P has to start to micro their zealots which is a nice improvement of the game.
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
As David Kim mentioned in his recent forum post, we’ll be moving forward with a new balance update this week. However, we realized that our original release schedule for Friday, February 28 would offer WCS Europe Premier League Group F competitors just a few short hours to practice with the new changes. Instead, we’re going to slightly alter our release schedule by holding off on the balance update for the European Battle.net region until after the Group F broadcast concludes on Saturday, March 1.
With tournaments on-going across the globe, there’s never a perfect time to roll out a balance update, but we want to make sure our target dates will have the least amount of impact possible on upcoming events. Once again, this schedule change will only affect Europe and we are still planning to release the update for all other Battle.net regions on Friday, February 28.
Thank you, and good luck to all of the players competing in WCS this week!"
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
On February 28 2014 08:28 _Epi_ wrote: it comes 1st of march on eu: "Hello everyone,
As David Kim mentioned in his recent forum post, we’ll be moving forward with a new balance update this week. However, we realized that our original release schedule for Friday, February 28 would offer WCS Europe Premier League Group F competitors just a few short hours to practice with the new changes. Instead, we’re going to slightly alter our release schedule by holding off on the balance update for the European Battle.net region until after the Group F broadcast concludes on Saturday, March 1.
With tournaments on-going across the globe, there’s never a perfect time to roll out a balance update, but we want to make sure our target dates will have the least amount of impact possible on upcoming events. Once again, this schedule change will only affect Europe and we are still planning to release the update for all other Battle.net regions on Friday, February 28.
Thank you, and good luck to all of the players competing in WCS this week!"
I guess that's really dissapointed Kas. I would get really mad.
On February 28 2014 08:28 _Epi_ wrote: it comes 1st of march on eu: "Hello everyone,
As David Kim mentioned in his recent forum post, we’ll be moving forward with a new balance update this week. However, we realized that our original release schedule for Friday, February 28 would offer WCS Europe Premier League Group F competitors just a few short hours to practice with the new changes. Instead, we’re going to slightly alter our release schedule by holding off on the balance update for the European Battle.net region until after the Group F broadcast concludes on Saturday, March 1.
With tournaments on-going across the globe, there’s never a perfect time to roll out a balance update, but we want to make sure our target dates will have the least amount of impact possible on upcoming events. Once again, this schedule change will only affect Europe and we are still planning to release the update for all other Battle.net regions on Friday, February 28.
Thank you, and good luck to all of the players competing in WCS this week!"
I guess that's really dissapointed Kas. I would get really mad.
hmmmmm so it´s like time for preparation > balance .... o.O
On February 28 2014 08:28 _Epi_ wrote: it comes 1st of march on eu: "Hello everyone,
As David Kim mentioned in his recent forum post, we’ll be moving forward with a new balance update this week. However, we realized that our original release schedule for Friday, February 28 would offer WCS Europe Premier League Group F competitors just a few short hours to practice with the new changes. Instead, we’re going to slightly alter our release schedule by holding off on the balance update for the European Battle.net region until after the Group F broadcast concludes on Saturday, March 1.
With tournaments on-going across the globe, there’s never a perfect time to roll out a balance update, but we want to make sure our target dates will have the least amount of impact possible on upcoming events. Once again, this schedule change will only affect Europe and we are still planning to release the update for all other Battle.net regions on Friday, February 28.
Thank you, and good luck to all of the players competing in WCS this week!"
I guess that's really dissapointed Kas. I would get really mad.
why lol every other terran before him also had to play in the current patch
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
If you make Hydras a strong enough as damagedealer zergs will find a way to use them.
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
If you make Hydras a strong enough as damagedealer zergs will find a way to use them.
of cause, that would depends on how strong you are buffing it to be. the main point of my argument is that both units are extremely different and should not be compared at all.
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
If you make Hydras a strong enough as damagedealer zergs will find a way to use them.
of cause, that would depends on how strong you are buffing it to be. the main point of my argument is that both units are extremely different and should not be compared at all.
I'm not making a 1:1 comparison. I'm using the combat shields upgrade in reference to balancing out a unit's glass cannon nature.
Of course you can break them with having them 1 shot everything or giving them zergling speed, but my point was any slight damage boost is trivial because they're still way to fragile once all the upgrades set in/the game reaches a certain point. HotS helps hydras with the additional speed upgrade (another way to mitigate AOE), but given how lategame P/TvZ turns out, it's not a stretch to say they need a little bit more help.
I'm not making a 1:1 comparison. I'm using the combat shields upgrade in reference to balancing out a unit's glass cannon nature.
Of course you can break them with having them 1 shot everything or giving them zergling speed, but my point was any slight damage boost is trivial because they're still way to fragile once all the upgrades set in/the game reaches a certain point. HotS helps hydras with the additional speed upgrade (another way to mitigate AOE), but given how lategame P/TvZ turns out, it's not a stretch to say they need a little bit more help.
I have to agree with this. This damage buff is very low, its about a 10% increase in dps (30 hydras is now 33 hydras). Now don't get me wrong, i'm quite happy with this, the hydra needs all the help he can get and I think a damage boost is great, however I cant help but agree that the hydra could still use a little more help. I actually think blizzards original plan, to decrease the hydra's cost would have been a much better route to go. If you reduce the cost in gas to hydra's, they become much less of an economic investment, thereby increasing their usefulness. But alas, I guess we'll have to wait and see if this small dps boast actually changes the game much. I personally use hydra's quite a bit, not because their good, but because their fun for me, their one of my favorite units, I think they are cool. So, hopefully this will help, but we'll see.
do others think this dps boast will change the matchups? do you think people will start using hydra's more in PvZ? Do you think people will actually start using hydra's as support units in ZvT?
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: [quote]
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
If you make Hydras a strong enough as damagedealer zergs will find a way to use them.
of cause, that would depends on how strong you are buffing it to be. the main point of my argument is that both units are extremely different and should not be compared at all.
I'm not making a 1:1 comparison. I'm using the combat shields upgrade in reference to balancing out a unit's glass cannon nature.
Of course you can break them with having them 1 shot everything or giving them zergling speed, but my point was any slight damage boost is trivial because they're still way to fragile once all the upgrades set in/the game reaches a certain point. HotS helps hydras with the additional speed upgrade (another way to mitigate AOE), but given how lategame P/TvZ turns out, it's not a stretch to say they need a little bit more help.
Thing with buffing their health/armor is that you create a unit that overlaps with the roach, which is already a well tanking mid-ranged unit. You are currently exclusively building hydras when you need their antiair or when you have enough buffer for them already. If you buff their tanking by a reasonable amount, the line between roaches and hydras becomes very thin, pushing hydras into the role of roaches and leaving roaches with nothing left.
If however, you buff hydras advantages (antiair/dps) and leave their weaknesses (HP/cost/tech) and possibly even buff the roaches strengths (HP/armor/regeneration) and emphasize their weaknesses (dps/no antiair/range) the situation would become even more clear and give both units useful roles. It makes mixing those units more rewarding for a player (less monoroach or monohydra play, dependend on what the opponent has teched) and gives more room for micro - such as targeting/flanking Hydralisks.
I'd say, current roach/hydra play is a little bit dull, because it's such a homogenous mass and most of the time you are good with building the one, but not the other unit - and eventually you switch out of either anyways, since this kind of composition has little use in the lategame. It's currently not required for the opponent to find ways to kill hydras first in the combat - and there is little reward for the zerg player if he positions and microes really well to keep hydras alive.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
If you make Hydras a strong enough as damagedealer zergs will find a way to use them.
of cause, that would depends on how strong you are buffing it to be. the main point of my argument is that both units are extremely different and should not be compared at all.
I'm not making a 1:1 comparison. I'm using the combat shields upgrade in reference to balancing out a unit's glass cannon nature.
Of course you can break them with having them 1 shot everything or giving them zergling speed, but my point was any slight damage boost is trivial because they're still way to fragile once all the upgrades set in/the game reaches a certain point. HotS helps hydras with the additional speed upgrade (another way to mitigate AOE), but given how lategame P/TvZ turns out, it's not a stretch to say they need a little bit more help.
Thing with buffing their health/armor is that you create a unit that overlaps with the roach, which is already a well tanking mid-ranged unit. You are currently exclusively building hydras when you need their antiair or when you have enough buffer for them already. If you buff their tanking by a reasonable amount, the line between roaches and hydras becomes very thin, pushing hydras into the role of roaches and leaving roaches with nothing left.
If however, you buff hydras advantages (antiair/dps) and leave their weaknesses (HP/cost/tech) and possibly even buff the roaches strengths (HP/armor/regeneration) and emphasize their weaknesses (dps/no antiair/range) the situation would become even more clear and give both units useful roles. It makes mixing those units more rewarding for a player (less monoroach or monohydra play, dependend on what the opponent has teched) and gives more room for micro - such as targeting/flanking Hydralisks.
I'd say, current roach/hydra play is a little bit dull, because it's such a homogenous mass and most of the time you are good with building the one, but not the other unit - and eventually you switch out of either anyways, since this kind of composition has little use in the lategame. It's currently not required for the opponent to find ways to kill hydras first in the combat - and there is little reward for the zerg player if he positions and microes really well to keep hydras alive.
Oh no. I definitely agree with you that -ideally- having clear roles for each unit is better, but the point I keep going back to (which you yourself highlight) is that it just doesn't work once the game reaches that dreaded late game stage. Reasons rehashed from several posters. I don't know whether buffing their DPS or their survivability is the answer, but a lot of pros tend to side with the latter and I'm inclined to agree with them. Just from my spectator's POV, I'd rather have fights extend a bit longer as opposed to the giant blob vs blob shenanigans.
I think, a mod has to change the title of the thread to "Next Balance Patch the 1st of March" - since the patch wont be out today and so the title is missleading ;D Would be great
Now my view on the patch: Looks great, Protoss definitely a lil too strong now, but with these changes it will change a lot I think :D lets see , gl hf for all tomorrow :D
On March 01 2014 03:51 AndaGalant wrote: I think, a mod has to change the title of the thread to "Next Balance Patch the 1st of March" - since the patch wont be out today and so the title is missleading ;D Would be great
Now my view on the patch: Looks great, Protoss definitely a lil too strong now, but with these changes it will change a lot I think :D lets see , gl hf for all tomorrow :D
It is only for Europe the patch is delayed. For the rest of the realms the patch will be live today.
On March 01 2014 03:51 AndaGalant wrote: I think, a mod has to change the title of the thread to "Next Balance Patch the 1st of March" - since the patch wont be out today and so the title is missleading ;D Would be great
Now my view on the patch: Looks great, Protoss definitely a lil too strong now, but with these changes it will change a lot I think :D lets see , gl hf for all tomorrow :D
It is only for Europe the patch is delayed. For the rest of the realms the patch will be live today.
today is already half over. I wonder what they are waiting for
I have only tested a couple TvP games but it seems like Protoss can no longer A-move straight into mass siege tanks protected by lots of widow mines, some hellbats and some vikings. Now Protoss actually have do some micro or try to outflank a sieged up Terran mech army like it should always have worked.
Air transitions are also a bit easier to deal with since widow mines can buy you time until you get your Viking count up. Ghosts are still more supply efficient compared to Widow mines but I think it is better to wait until you are near maxing out before you start to replace some of your widow mines with Ghosts.
On February 27 2014 16:16 ssxsilver wrote: [quote] Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
If you make Hydras a strong enough as damagedealer zergs will find a way to use them.
of cause, that would depends on how strong you are buffing it to be. the main point of my argument is that both units are extremely different and should not be compared at all.
I'm not making a 1:1 comparison. I'm using the combat shields upgrade in reference to balancing out a unit's glass cannon nature.
Of course you can break them with having them 1 shot everything or giving them zergling speed, but my point was any slight damage boost is trivial because they're still way to fragile once all the upgrades set in/the game reaches a certain point. HotS helps hydras with the additional speed upgrade (another way to mitigate AOE), but given how lategame P/TvZ turns out, it's not a stretch to say they need a little bit more help.
Thing with buffing their health/armor is that you create a unit that overlaps with the roach, which is already a well tanking mid-ranged unit. You are currently exclusively building hydras when you need their antiair or when you have enough buffer for them already. If you buff their tanking by a reasonable amount, the line between roaches and hydras becomes very thin, pushing hydras into the role of roaches and leaving roaches with nothing left.
If however, you buff hydras advantages (antiair/dps) and leave their weaknesses (HP/cost/tech) and possibly even buff the roaches strengths (HP/armor/regeneration) and emphasize their weaknesses (dps/no antiair/range) the situation would become even more clear and give both units useful roles. It makes mixing those units more rewarding for a player (less monoroach or monohydra play, dependend on what the opponent has teched) and gives more room for micro - such as targeting/flanking Hydralisks.
I'd say, current roach/hydra play is a little bit dull, because it's such a homogenous mass and most of the time you are good with building the one, but not the other unit - and eventually you switch out of either anyways, since this kind of composition has little use in the lategame. It's currently not required for the opponent to find ways to kill hydras first in the combat - and there is little reward for the zerg player if he positions and microes really well to keep hydras alive.
Oh no. I definitely agree with you that -ideally- having clear roles for each unit is better, but the point I keep going back to (which you yourself highlight) is that it just doesn't work once the game reaches that dreaded late game stage. Reasons rehashed from several posters. I don't know whether buffing their DPS or their survivability is the answer, but a lot of pros tend to side with the latter and I'm inclined to agree with them. Just from my spectator's POV, I'd rather have fights extend a bit longer as opposed to the giant blob vs blob shenanigans.
I absolutely agree with BigJ's post. Roaches and Hydras currently are already a little bit too similar. Ideally I would have preferred a change to the range upgrade instead of the DPS buff. Increase the base range of Hydras to 6 and add a hive requirement for the +1 range upgrade. Hydras with range 7 could be pretty interesting. This buff would not only help with AOE but it would especially be helpful in the anti air role. Nonetheless DPS buff is also a step in the right direction.
On February 27 2014 16:16 ssxsilver wrote: [quote] Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Wow, what an explanation. Believe me, if marines did 12 DMG per shot and had only 35 HP they still would be used. Units are always a compromise. If a Unit has strong characteristics good and bad, it will still be used. Just think of the reaver in BW. Hydras good characteristic, dealing damage fast, is just not strong enough to make it worth to deal with their weaknesses. If you take away defining features like the "squishiness" of hydras units become bland. Marines for example do so much damage that players have learned to deal with the units weaknesses, because its worth it. More DPS for the Hydra is a good change. Hydras will be better in their role as damagedealer while other units should always be there to soak up damage. Hydras need protection, and zerg has so many units that can provide exactly that.
They are different. Hydra is an optional tech path, while marine is core for bio. And Marines are cost efficient with their cheap cost (especially due to not needing gas) and has more than enough durability to deal great dps with medivac support.
But just like hydra, you cant use them if they are too glass cannon, mainly talking about late game pvt where Marines just melt too quickly.
Hydras requires two upgrade which makes them expensive investment to use and has a very small presence in a deathball combat except when zerg is tanking with free units.
If you make Hydras a strong enough as damagedealer zergs will find a way to use them.
of cause, that would depends on how strong you are buffing it to be. the main point of my argument is that both units are extremely different and should not be compared at all.
I'm not making a 1:1 comparison. I'm using the combat shields upgrade in reference to balancing out a unit's glass cannon nature.
Of course you can break them with having them 1 shot everything or giving them zergling speed, but my point was any slight damage boost is trivial because they're still way to fragile once all the upgrades set in/the game reaches a certain point. HotS helps hydras with the additional speed upgrade (another way to mitigate AOE), but given how lategame P/TvZ turns out, it's not a stretch to say they need a little bit more help.
Thing with buffing their health/armor is that you create a unit that overlaps with the roach, which is already a well tanking mid-ranged unit. You are currently exclusively building hydras when you need their antiair or when you have enough buffer for them already. If you buff their tanking by a reasonable amount, the line between roaches and hydras becomes very thin, pushing hydras into the role of roaches and leaving roaches with nothing left.
If however, you buff hydras advantages (antiair/dps) and leave their weaknesses (HP/cost/tech) and possibly even buff the roaches strengths (HP/armor/regeneration) and emphasize their weaknesses (dps/no antiair/range) the situation would become even more clear and give both units useful roles. It makes mixing those units more rewarding for a player (less monoroach or monohydra play, dependend on what the opponent has teched) and gives more room for micro - such as targeting/flanking Hydralisks.
I'd say, current roach/hydra play is a little bit dull, because it's such a homogenous mass and most of the time you are good with building the one, but not the other unit - and eventually you switch out of either anyways, since this kind of composition has little use in the lategame. It's currently not required for the opponent to find ways to kill hydras first in the combat - and there is little reward for the zerg player if he positions and microes really well to keep hydras alive.
Oh no. I definitely agree with you that -ideally- having clear roles for each unit is better, but the point I keep going back to (which you yourself highlight) is that it just doesn't work once the game reaches that dreaded late game stage. Reasons rehashed from several posters. I don't know whether buffing their DPS or their survivability is the answer, but a lot of pros tend to side with the latter and I'm inclined to agree with them. Just from my spectator's POV, I'd rather have fights extend a bit longer as opposed to the giant blob vs blob shenanigans.
neither of them is going to work without breaking the midgame. The standard problem of that composition is that roaches are balanced around 50res/supply and hydras are 75res/supply, which is just such a cheap composition that it is going to be supplyinefficient on its own against units like Colossus (83res/supply), high templar (100res/supply) and so on and so on. So either roach/hydra has to implement a decent amount of higher tech "support" units [1] later on or has to focus around very mobility/trading based play so that such scenarios are very hard to reach [2].
[1] is kind of what we have right now, just that the main problem is that - apart from Vipers - all other units need everything as support but roach/hydra (SHs need statics and more SHs; Broodlords need mass Corruptors; Infestors need other units that protect them; ultralisks and roaches overlap in role and counters). So basically, the moment you start transitioning into something that is not roach/hydra/viper, you have to transition further into ways to keep those units alive. Imo the main problem is that zerg does not have a siege unit that you can sprinkle in, since BLs need AtA support against Tempests and Viking/Ravens and SHs... well, we know how those games go. They do nothing if you sprinkle them in for siege reasons and don't help you at all sniping certain units, which is a keycomponent you usually want from a siege unit. Imo, this problem is only solveable if you design units that work better with roach/hydra/viper alone, e.g. a plain ~10range GtG siege unit. Or you introduce artificial solutions so that midgame (cheap) roach/hydra play stays untouched and does not become imbalanced, but lategame you can have more of those units, e.g. a Hive upgrade that makes roaches go to 1.5supply in the lategame. [2] Yeah, buffing helps with the trading, but that's not really the problem - neither should it be the intention to make it possible to run into Siege lines/PFs and colossi/FFs/Storms. The main problem is to get some of the roach/hydra where it hurts and around the choke points behind which T/P is going to sit in the phases of the game where R/H or R/H/V can trade well. Imo the main problem here is that the moment you toy around with drops/OL speed so much that you can use them for multipronged harass, it's going to break doomdrops, since all OLs are dropships (and they are dirtcheap and accessible in high numbers easily/early). The Tunneling Claws stuff definitely has helped, as we can also see on the prolevel. But at the end of the day its still just units moving through the same guarded entrances as always.
Imo, I'd like it if they would finally implement a normalattacking T2.5-T3 longranged Zerg unit (and sorry, that is not a lurker). The ones we had/have - Infestor with up to 8 3/3 ITs for 2supply and 9range NP as "siegelike" weapon; SH which I wrote about already... not a good unit to mix into your composition and questionable if a good unit at all - are not units that really play well with the other stuff from that techpath.
On March 01 2014 11:02 SonGoku wrote: can anyone explain the widow-mine change to me? I feel like nothing has changed... the tooltip is btw wrong, it says only +35 dmg to shields
The widow-mine does 125 Damage + 35 dmg to shield on the primary target. (The unit that the mine explodes on)
Now the buff is only on the splash damage and only on shield.
Splash Damage:
Used to be (NO shield damage):
1.25 radius, 40 splash damage 1.25 to 1.5 radius, 20 damage 1.5 to 1.75, 10 damage
Now: 1.25 radius, splash damage will increase from 40 to 40 +40 vs. shields. 1.25 to 1.5 radius, splash damage will increase from 20 to 20 +20 vs. shields. 1.5 to 1.75 radius, splash damage will increase from 10 to 10 +10 vs. shields.
Ok my fault! But still, I dont really feel like it has changed a lot. Maybe because I dont really have played mines in tvp often, but I watched some Rotterdam stream today and he said something like "sometimes it does nothing but sometimes it can be game-winning". In wich cases is the mine buff game winning? Drop into eco?
On March 01 2014 12:00 SwiftRH wrote: when does this go live cause its march 1st soon and still no patch. maybe they decided to not cripple protoss hehe
It is live in NA. Head banging Hydras are mean. I have not run into mines yet. MSC vision nerf takes getting used to. It's big.
It will go live in EU after the last WCS group E matches.
Man i feel like this widow mine buff changes A LOT. I kinda feel bad for all the players having to play their WCS matches still right in the middle of this patch as well as the players who already played and didn't get this benefit. But i'm excited to see how the matchup evolves from here, that's for sure!
On March 01 2014 12:00 SwiftRH wrote: when does this go live cause its march 1st soon and still no patch. maybe they decided to not cripple protoss hehe
It is live in NA. Head banging Hydras are mean. I have not run into mines yet. MSC vision nerf takes getting used to. It's big.
It will go live in EU after the last WCS group E matches.
Group E? Today is already Group F?! But still, maybe thats why I dont see any changes as I played T_T
quite decent changes imo. Would nerf protoss a bit while giving a small boost to terran. Let's just hope that terran won't be the new race that's picked on for balance whiners lol
On March 01 2014 13:32 BigFan wrote: Let's just hope that terran won't be the new race that's picked on for balance whiners lol
that's not going to happen because straight up macro protoss play hasn't actually been nerfed at all (well, i guess msc sight might affect army positioning lategame too, but we'll have to wait and see)
On March 01 2014 13:32 BigFan wrote: Let's just hope that terran won't be the new race that's picked on for balance whiners lol
that's not going to happen because straight up macro protoss play hasn't actually been nerfed at all (well, i guess msc sight might affect army positioning lategame too, but we'll have to wait and see)
If the midgame and early game change then of course lategame will be impacted, it might not come as quickly or might provide more options for terran in terms of getting ghosts in time for storm and delaying 2 or 3 base templar pushes before collossus.
There is a very minimal nerf here to PvT. As many have said a million times, which I will just reinforce, is the MSC is the problem in this match. Reducing sight range and duration is like taking a Ferrari, putting Volkswagon Beetle rims on it, and saying "look now it's not a fast car." I would argue even 30 seconds from 50 seconds Photon Overcharge still wouldn't change anything. Disbanding Terran's initial attack by right clicking on a building and throwing off timing pushes is just silly. Nothing in this patch leads to any early harassment capabilities for Terran - this is a simple playstyle/timing shift for Protoss; 2 base blink will just become more common once obs are out.
On March 01 2014 12:00 SwiftRH wrote: when does this go live cause its march 1st soon and still no patch. maybe they decided to not cripple protoss hehe
It is live in NA. Head banging Hydras are mean. I have not run into mines yet. MSC vision nerf takes getting used to. It's big.
It will go live in EU after the last WCS group E matches.
Group E? Today is already Group F?! But still, maybe thats why I dont see any changes as I played T_T
On March 01 2014 13:14 SonGoku wrote: Ok my fault! But still, I dont really feel like it has changed a lot. Maybe because I dont really have played mines in tvp often, but I watched some Rotterdam stream today and he said something like "sometimes it does nothing but sometimes it can be game-winning". In wich cases is the mine buff game winning? Drop into eco?
edit: thanks for the gif, that looks good!
First time Terrans got Oracle answer and protosses whining?
On February 27 2014 17:22 MrLightning wrote: Good changes for ladder, far less PvPs for me to play . But now the round of 8 of every major tournament will be a contest between the top 4 zergs and the top 4 terrans. A lot of protoss pros will be out on the street soon enough and the constant TvZ will get boring . Oh well, good changes overall. Really wanted the blink nerf to get through, really seal the deal and kill any hope protoss will now have of winning anything.
really dude? a bit of vision nerf on the msc and protoss is "done" ???
just goes to show that any nerf for any race will prompt people into thinking there race is done for.
On March 01 2014 13:57 SirPinky wrote: There is a very minimal nerf here to PvT. As many have said a million times, which I will just reinforce, is the MSC is the problem in this match. Reducing sight range and duration is like taking a Ferrari, putting Volkswagon Beetle rims on it, and saying "look now it's not a fast car." I would argue even 30 seconds from 50 seconds Photon Overcharge still wouldn't change anything. Disbanding Terran's initial attack by right clicking on a building and throwing off timing pushes is just silly. Nothing in this patch leads to any early harassment capabilities for Terran - this is a simple playstyle/timing shift for Protoss; 2 base blink will just become more common once obs are out.
They didn't nerf overcharge because the 60-second version is pretty much mandatory to not make PvP retarded. 30-second PO makes it literally impossible to ever expand in PvP.
It got delayed for Europe, wont be up until after WCS tonight.
i dont see the point .. anyway there are still 2 more groups next week why do they wait for tonight ...
Is there a way to talk to David Kim ?? Cause i don't really understand if he is clearly incompentent or what is his purpose on this game but when i see Pvt i find the MU completly ridiculous in term of required skills on toss side... and even i watched some PvZ where Z is clearly more skilled (solar vs Arthur) and the toss just abuse the completly broken OP toss game design and Z has just no chance, ridiculous...
It is really getting ridiculous seriously it's pain full to watch, caster just cant explain what happen "toss just OP" ....
The patch won't be enough .. all the game design should be reviewed , you can have the most deadly OP army and so many way to haras or all in ..
The worst is that all noob toss all in or abusive play can work even if scouted and well defended, and WORST, if it doenst win instant, the fails all in absolutly did not put them behind ... Silly
Remember that thread that listed all the current vs. proposed changes for the Test Map by displaying .gif images (i.e., what 8 second Blink cooldown looks like instead of 15s)? I can't find that, if anyone has a link to that I'd be much appreciated.
On March 02 2014 02:11 sparklyresidue wrote: Remember that thread that listed all the current vs. proposed changes for the Test Map by displaying .gif images (i.e., what 8 second Blink cooldown looks like instead of 15s)? I can't find that, if anyone has a link to that I'd be much appreciated.
On March 02 2014 02:11 sparklyresidue wrote: Remember that thread that listed all the current vs. proposed changes for the Test Map by displaying .gif images (i.e., what 8 second Blink cooldown looks like instead of 15s)? I can't find that, if anyone has a link to that I'd be much appreciated.
I watched around 6 hours byun stream yesterday and it doesn't seem to change all that much. Mines are quite useful against chargelot ht archon but it's not as big as I thought it would be.
There were still a few games where it is late on bunker for 5 seconds and loses a lot to a zealot stalker poke.
It looked like bad protoss can't use blink stalker timing as easily but good protoss can still play as if there was no nerf.
Of cause time will tell whether it is true or not but I find it a bit surprising overall.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Well im only on diamond and i dont consider myself a very good terran, but when i saw polt vs Hero one of the core issues were storms, which polt dodged pretty well, but with like 6 storms surrounding your army its just impossible to dodge, or FF+TW+Storm = instant death. Well i dont want to cause a shitstorm, its just my opinion
So a terran hits a perfect emp and hits 8 templar twice and you lose all your energy. So you just make arcons and your sweet. If you land a perfect storm the terran player loses half his army. so emp is only dealing with storms really because emping army isnt going to help if you get stormed, because you have to run. In the best case senario there is no storms but protoss has some arcons instead that do take a bit to combine. Worst case senario is terran cops 16 storms. but is fighting a army that has some shields knocked off, that will regenerate as the terran has to bail because of the storms. and ghosts costs more
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
I think he was being sarcastic... I hope so anyway. It's a standard old argument form back when EMP radius was huge and did infinity shield/energy damage.
It's them design issues again, protoss has to hide behind something until they get splash because core units have to be weak to stop the warp in mechanic all in's smashing the early game, creating the need for an unreasonably hard counter in the mid game which like everything scales too well with SC2's unit clumping. Jelly it turns out isn't an optimal foundation.
Just imagine If the whole terran army didn't fit under two storms... Comon blizard spread them units out a bit... It's starting to hurt to watch SC2 again
On March 02 2014 09:58 ikisauce wrote: So a terran hits a perfect emp and hits 8 templar twice and you lose all your energy. So you just make arcons and your sweet. If you land a perfect storm the terran player loses half his army. so emp is only dealing with storms really because emping army isnt going to help if you get stormed, because you have to run. In the best case senario there is no storms but protoss has some arcons instead that do take a bit to combine. Worst case senario is terran cops 16 storms. but is fighting a army that has some shields knocked off, that will regenerate as the terran has to bail because of the storms. and ghosts costs more
So if archons are enough to just win anyway why even bother risking making high templar at all? If you honestly believe you can get all your HT's EMP'd and just be fine by merging archons mid battle then i don't know what to tell you.
On March 02 2014 09:58 _Epi_ wrote: Well im only on diamond and i dont consider myself a very good terran, but when i saw polt vs Hero one of the core issues were storms, which polt dodged pretty well, but with like 6 storms surrounding your army its just impossible to dodge, or FF+TW+Storm = instant death. Well i dont want to cause a shitstorm, its just my opinion
That's because polt didn't build any ghosts despite going ghost acadamy. At that point you're just accepting that the protoss will get storms off and just try and dodge them.
i never understood why the sightrange nerf @msc should prevent a blink all-in. maybe this only changes something on pro-level, but nothing changed in diamon league so far T_T
mines just work good against chargelot/archon but if there is a single colossus protoss destroyes them quite easy. small buff, not bad.
the issue in tvp ist just like mostevil said the general race design of protoss. when i play terran in this match up i feel much more stressed and i have to work by far more to win it then playing protoss. i just sit back and defend untill storm finished and then i crush the whole terran army with 20apm. protoss good race. actually this is no whining but my humble opinion
On March 02 2014 17:06 SonGoku wrote: i never understood why the sightrange nerf @msc should prevent a blink all-in. maybe this only changes something on pro-level, but nothing changed in diamon league so far T_T
mines just work good against chargelot/archon but if there is a single colossus protoss destroyes them quite easy. small buff, not bad.
the issue in tvp ist just like mostevil said the general race design of protoss. when i play terran in this match up i feel much more stressed and i have to work by far more to win it then playing protoss. i just sit back and defend untill storm finished and then i crush the whole terran army with 20apm. protoss good race. actually this is no whining but my humble opinion
Just because you say something isn't whining, doesn't make it so. Also, that wasn't humble at all. It was extremely blatant whining and clearly shows that you don't play Protoss.
On March 02 2014 17:06 SonGoku wrote: i never understood why the sightrange nerf @msc should prevent a blink all-in. maybe this only changes something on pro-level, but nothing changed in diamon league so far T_T
mines just work good against chargelot/archon but if there is a single colossus protoss destroyes them quite easy. small buff, not bad.
the issue in tvp ist just like mostevil said the general race design of protoss. when i play terran in this match up i feel much more stressed and i have to work by far more to win it then playing protoss. i just sit back and defend untill storm finished and then i crush the whole terran army with 20apm. protoss good race. actually this is no whining but my humble opinion
It doesn't prevent a blink all in, but it makes it much more risky. Before, Protoss could basically do "free" damage, as they can look up the cliff, see where the forces are, and blink in with the MsC at a super safe distance. That means that blink all in's, aren't really all in's, but just pressures that can outright kill a Terran, while Protoss has the ability to expand behind it. The current map pool doesn't help at all.
Now, the MsC has to be much closer, it can be more easily sniped, and the Protoss doesn't have vision of a massive chunk of the Terran's base/defenses, so they could be blinking into lots of bunkers/bio and would put them massively hard behind.
When you're talking about how you have to play better, etc etc - it literally doesn't matter. You're playing poorly at whatever level you're at and you can always get better. So, get better.
you´re right, there definitly are some things that can defend a blink push/all-in. anyway, the main issue in pvt for me are other things like mostevil mentioned I even remember david kim saying something like ghosts should help, it was at the time when the energy buff came in. Any opinions on that? To be honest, i never tried to get a ghost out when scouting blink push/all-in... i may have to test it someday
On March 02 2014 17:06 SonGoku wrote: i never understood why the sightrange nerf @msc should prevent a blink all-in. maybe this only changes something on pro-level, but nothing changed in diamon league so far T_T
mines just work good against chargelot/archon but if there is a single colossus protoss destroyes them quite easy. small buff, not bad.
the issue in tvp ist just like mostevil said the general race design of protoss. when i play terran in this match up i feel much more stressed and i have to work by far more to win it then playing protoss. i just sit back and defend untill storm finished and then i crush the whole terran army with 20apm. protoss good race. actually this is no whining but my humble opinion
Just because you say something isn't whining, doesn't make it so. Also, that wasn't humble at all. It was extremely blatant whining and clearly shows that you don't play Protoss.
actually i played protoss since brood war and just switched to terran 2 or 3 seasons ago because i have just more fun playing terran and no its no whine, its just my feeling when i compare playing both races in this match up. Even Rotterdam makes fun of storms in tvp when he is streaming.
Did anyone test new Hydras vs Immortal allins? Because these Proleague Protoss still crush Zergs with it. People complaining about Storms, you should note that in the games between Hero and Polt, which have been discussed oh so much. Pol generally did very well in the later stages of the game, but usually got hugely behind in the early game. This makes sense with all the metagame opening you can do as Protoss, but that has now been nerfed with Blink being worse, scouting is worse and Terran has gotten a better opener in the Widow Mine.
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Don't say "by that same argument" if you use a different one. You don't put roaches or anything tanky infront of marines. It's not the same thing.
On March 02 2014 21:36 ejozl wrote: Did anyone test new Hydras vs Immortal allins? Because these Proleague Protoss still crush Zergs with it. People complaining about Storms, you should note that in the games between Hero and Polt, which have been discussed oh so much. Pol generally did very well in the later stages of the game, but usually got hugely behind in the early game. This makes sense with all the metagame opening you can do as Protoss, but that has now been nerfed with Blink being worse, scouting is worse and Terran has gotten a better opener in the Widow Mine.
Blink isnt worse you dumb fuck. msc is slightly worse. Protoss is still strong and they can do everything
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
Well currently neither Mech, Air or both is viable against toss, i tried diehard to play that versus protoss but as soon as you face a protoss who can handle mech/air you are basically out of the game, high templar deals mostly with 90% of your air comp, feedbacking everything.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
Those terrans should not be listened to.
The major problems in TvP is that on top of the fact toss still has a lot of early game option vs the almost unique terran (reaper expo), terran has litteraly no lategame composition that is not bio. And keep in mind that ghost are not that cheap at 200/100. (and you want like 15-20 of them in the very late game)
On the toss making a choice when warping vs drops thing, remember that a double medivac drops is 20 supply, so that is kind of a big investment on the terran part. (keep in mind that a terran can see his 2 vacs just melt to 2 feedbacks for free)
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
Wow, so much wrong stuff in just one post. Protoss armies are not generally more expensive. Please, take a few minutes, go to the unit tester and build several typical mid too late game armies. I think you are in for a surprise. While the core units, rines and rauders are quite cheap, everything else in the terran army is not. On top of that, Toss production generally is far cheaper and more effective. The game balance is a little bit more complex then what you have stated.
A little bit food for thoughts: If you build a rax for example it takes 65+25+30=120 seconds to get out the first marauder. Toss can produce a gateway, morph it into a warpgate and get out 3 stalkers at a forward pylon in the same time if they use chrono (65+10+22+22 = 119 seconds). That is something that is often overlooked when people talk about expensive units. Terran production requires more investment earlier. The game is not imbalanced because of that, but complaining about expensive gateway units without looking at the whole picture is just wrong.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count
Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran. And well, do i need to mention the colossus? It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo.
However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count
I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully).
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote: Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran. And well, do i need to mention the colossus? It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo.
Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though.
However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works
Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually
You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right?
Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though.
So if zealots get more micro. Stalker get more micro, and immortals to. They become the same as terran?
You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right?
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count
I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully).
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote: Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran. And well, do i need to mention the colossus? It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo.
Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though.
However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works
Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually
You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right?
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
yep... ok... lets just forget terran need to have ghosts vikings and medivacs and that toss don't use units like stalkers and zealots.. lol...
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count
I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully).
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote: Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran. And well, do i need to mention the colossus? It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo.
Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though.
However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works
Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually
You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right?
'Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point.'
Zealots do fine before the terran has stim. They are only 'weak' when in between when stim is done and charge has not finished. As for units not doing much damage because they are kited. It doesn't only apply to melee units. What do you think happens when 2 stalkers catch 6 marines that don't have stim in the middle of the map? Yeah, most of those 6 are dead with maybe only shield damage on the stalkers.
And mirrors aren't least liked because the races are too similar. It is more that ZvZ comes down to roach/roach too much and once you have set the concave, there isn't much micro. When it gets to hydra/infestor stage, it is actually pretty good. As for PvP, it is mainly due to the coin flippy early game and the deathball v deathball late game. If anything, it is the lack of micro which viewers don't like. If roach v roach had the same micro potential as ling/bling and P deathball v deathball had the potential as the early game stalker v stalker micro, I am sure viewers would be fine with mirrors.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count
I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully).
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote: Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran. And well, do i need to mention the colossus? It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo.
Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though.
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:
However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works
Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually
You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right?
'Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point.'
Zealots do fine before the terran has stim. They are only 'weak' when in between when stim is done and charge has not finished. As for units not doing much damage because they are kited. It doesn't only apply to melee units. What do you think happens when 2 stalkers catch 6 marines that don't have stim in the middle of the map? Yeah, most of those 6 are dead with maybe only shield damage on the stalkers
Photon overcharge? That's some crazy hypothetical that does not exist at any moderate to high level of skill.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count
I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully).
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote: Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran. And well, do i need to mention the colossus? It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo.
Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though.
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:
However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works
Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually
You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right?
'Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point.'
Zealots do fine before the terran has stim. They are only 'weak' when in between when stim is done and charge has not finished. As for units not doing much damage because they are kited. It doesn't only apply to melee units. What do you think happens when 2 stalkers catch 6 marines that don't have stim in the middle of the map? Yeah, most of those 6 are dead with maybe only shield damage on the stalkers
Photon overcharge? That's some crazy hypothetical that does not exist at any moderate to high level of skill.
I cannot believe anyone would even attempt to bring that up as a point with photon overcharge in the game...
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp!
This is what needs to happen:
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression.
-Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use.
The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote: LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
Very true Against 15storms, a good terran dont eat a single one
The reason terran units needs to be "weaker" is because of the potential of the army. You guys are using marines (50 minerals) and marauders (100/25) in the lategame as your main source of damage output. This sounds weird as fuck in my eyes. A protoss needs colossus (300/200), high templars (50/150) and a meath shield to deal with your army of 50 mineral units. The reason this works is because your units can be worth more the better they are used. An amoving terran will lose horribly because he's using units worth 50 and 100/25, of course they will melt to the amoving protoss units (where the CHEAPEST is 100 minerals, stalkers are 125/50, etc). So the terran army has more "micro" potential to make up for this. In some way it's unfair to the terran player since they will need to "raise" the value of their army with good micro but I guess that's the "payback" for having the cheapest lategame army?
I'm a protoss player and I rarely micro harder than my opponent. He's splitting, stutter stepping vikings, etc while I'm amoving, storming, forcefielding and guardian shielding. It's not that hard to maneuver a protoss army tbh. The thing is though that we invest so much more int our army. I have 4 - 5 colossuses (300/200), I have 5 - 6 high templars (50/150), I have a sentry (50/100), I have 7 - 8 stalkers (125/50), the list goes on. The strength in our army is that it's a ball of heavy, expensive units. Do you terrans really think an expensive army like that should need as much micro as an army consisting of marines and marauders which are significantly cheaper? Add to that the fact that the protoss needs to look away from the fight to reinforce. Would you be able to do the same amount of stutter stepping and splitting if you weren't allowed to look at your army while making new units?
In the end, I think protoss is an easier race and slightly op in pvt but I'm annoyed by terrans who have the mindset that "Since my army requires more micro, I deserve the win more". Sometimes I feel like the power of protoss lies in making the perfect composition while dealing with pressure. To make the ultimate army (Remember that EVERY time a protoss warps in a unit, he's making a choice. Do I want a zealot? Stalker? Sentry? High templar? Dark templar?) WHILE being able to deflect that double medivac drop, WHILE having a stimmed army which can snipe your nexus in under 10 seconds because you're out of position, etc.
I stay away from balance discussions as I don't think anyone here can make an unbiased case. We're all biased. However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works.
And you/protoss use mass zealots(100minerals) in midgame/lategame. Isnt that to weird as fuck? What about medivacs. They dont count? Vikings, dont count either? And ghost...dont count. Ok i get it, only marine and marauder count
I used the term "as the main source of damage output", that's why I left out ghosts/medivacs/vikings. Yes, massive zealot warp-ins late game is op however, that doesn't change my opinion. Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point. Until charge, a zealot isn't doing damage, it's only tanking damage due to stutter step (of course there are exceptions, but you get the general picture hopefully).
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote: Personally i believe the gameplay would be alot better if toss had micro units to with a more equal macro to terran. And well, do i need to mention the colossus? It has been talked to death but the unit is very boring to play against AND to play with imo.
Yep, and there's where your opinion differs from many others. Sure, Blizzard could have made the races exactly the same but with different models. There's a reason mirror match-ups are the least liked though.
On March 03 2014 03:32 Foxxan wrote:
However I wish terrans would stop thinking that because they need to put more apm into the fights, they deserve the win more. That's not how a RTS game works
Thanks for this. I didnt know this actually
You seem to be the kind of person who isn't interested in a discussion. You probably just want me to say "Sorry, I'll switch to terran so that my wins suddenly count ", right?
'Zealots are only viable versus terran once they got charge. If you've ever played protoss and tried to defend early aggression you'll find yourself VERY frustrated when you spend 500 minerals on 5 zealots and they do exactly 0 damage because of the terran micro. Terran doesn't have any melee units (except for SCVs) so they don't get this point.'
Zealots do fine before the terran has stim. They are only 'weak' when in between when stim is done and charge has not finished. As for units not doing much damage because they are kited. It doesn't only apply to melee units. What do you think happens when 2 stalkers catch 6 marines that don't have stim in the middle of the map? Yeah, most of those 6 are dead with maybe only shield damage on the stalkers
Photon overcharge? That's some crazy hypothetical that does not exist at any moderate to high level of skill.
I cannot believe anyone would even attempt to bring that up as a point with photon overcharge in the game...
Not to mention saying Zealots suck without charge is like saying Marine / Maurader sucks without stim...
On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote: LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
You pretty much described the sc2 scene in it's entirety right there.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote: LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss.
But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play.
Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp!
This is what needs to happen:
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression.
-Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use.
The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
As Terran, we know that shield damage alone isn't enough against Protoss. The change to shield damage might make it look even at first glance, but once shields are removed, Photon Overcharge (as you suggest) now does a pithy 5 damage to a zealot per hit. Or stalker or whatever without shields. I think it should be a higher number, say 10 + 20 vs shields to overcome the fact that the damage gets reduced by a lot once shields are down.
That will stabilize the fuck out of PvP. Skilled Protosses can target-fire shielded units to maximize damage and distinguish themselves.
On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote: LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss.
But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play.
Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
On February 27 2014 13:59 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On February 27 2014 13:50 Havik_ wrote: The Hydralisk change is bunk. What the hell prompted that!?
From what I gathered from when it was first proposed to reduce the gas cost to 25, they want to break up the roach dominance in ZvZ by making the tech transition to roach/hydra easier and more desirable. Also to maybe encourage roach/hydra as a more viable option against bio in ZvT.
Personally, I think they're missing the mark and this buff won't make much of a dent in either of those goals. 25 gas hydras are too good, while a 10% buff to dps isn't quite enough. They need a more reasonable middle ground.
Maybe they should have considered a mineral reduction from 100 to 75?
Or go with what so many pros have been asking for in +1 armor or +10ish HP.
I don't understand why this suggestion pops up everywhere. Against which unit exactly would 1 Armor or 10 HP make any difference? This would be the most boring change ever. The hydra is a squishy unit that deals a lot of damage and needs other units in front to tank. That's its role. Buffing its tanking ability would make them a little bit better in direct trades, but would not at all help them to fill their intended role. Zerg has the perfect units to put in front of the Hydra. Right now they just don't do enough damage to be really worth it. I like this purposed change.
The next thing i would change if they are still underused after the patch is: -Increase the base range to 6. -Add a hive requirement for the range increase upgrade.
Because their DPS has never been an issue. By that same argument, there's no point to combat shields and you might as well give marines +1 attack or something instead. Obviously I'm speaking secondhand when I say it's what a lot of pros want, but those that do give feedback seem to come to the same consensus, the problem occurs once the game gets to the deathball stage. At that point, hydras can't effectively function as AA, because they die instantly to critical mass AOE.
Don't say "by that same argument" if you use a different one. You don't put roaches or anything tanky infront of marines. It's not the same thing.
Christ it wasn't a marine vs hydras comp. It was an example of how a durability upgrade (combat shields) can have a positive effect on DPS units (which he argued against). Durability vs things that tend to snowball like AOE. Some people may feel more DPS= more micro. I do not. Agree to disagree. The end.
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp!
This is what needs to happen:
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression.
-Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use.
The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
Half your post is wrong.
MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game. And your PO change suggestion would just neuter the spell. It would have ⅔ of sentry DPS against non-shield. This doesn't defend anything in any matchup.
Maybe Terran should get a unit built from the OC. I mean Protoss has MSC, Zerg can build queens. Only Terran can't build a unit from their main building. I just have no idea what it should be capable of.
On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote: LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss.
But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play.
Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
the only thing that matters is the pro level.
and i dont get why people talk about imbalance in lower levels. on lower levels you can choose what builds you do and just because one build is easier to execute than another build doesnt mean that it is OP or whatever.
... i actually dont know what imbalance in lower levels means.
Good fire support if you micro individual shots against protoss units but basically worthless for everything else, it would be niche at best instead of fulfilling a core *cough* role
On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote: LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss.
But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play.
Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
the only thing that matters is the pro level.
and i dont get why people talk about imbalance in lower levels. on lower levels you can choose what builds you do and just because one build is easier to execute than another build doesnt mean that it is OP or whatever.
... i actually dont know what imbalance in lower levels means.
That is such a narrow view. Yes, pro level matters more. But what 'defines' pro level? It is pretty obvious that 'pro' level now is very different from 'pro' level during early WoL. Does that mean we never should have tweaked WoL because the 'pro' level wasn't high enough?
Why do you think the WM was changed? At the 'pro' level, zergs shouldn't take game ending damage from WMs. I don't think anyone is trying to say all the builds should be the exact same in execution. But there shouldn't be a huge difference if possible. Or things like 11-11 won't have been nerfed because with perfect micro, 11-11 was definitely holdable. Things like margin of error are important.
Not sure why people think 'pros' play with 0 errors and mistakes.
On March 03 2014 13:59 FreeZEternal wrote: LOL you guys should stop whining and just play the game.
Nobody wants to play a game they don't enjoy is the problem...
Then they should either stop playing or get better. There are slight imbalances (hardly though) at the highest of levels, however good the average TL player is, is low enough they shouldn't be blaming their losses on balance.
I don't know why this argument gets thrown around so much. Do people just like to repeat things? No one is playing 'perfect' starcraft right now. Even Flash said he can get better and overcome the 'stronger' protoss.
But ideally, there should be relative balance at all levels of play. In practice, this is hard to achieve and when push comes to shove, the higher end/pro balance is more important. But it doesn't mean that balance is not a problem if you can improve your play.
Let's say you are playing soccer, and one side has a smaller goal. Of course, if you are at an amateur level, you CAN improve/raise your level so you can overcome this imbalance and you aren't losing JUST because of that. But it is STILL an imbalance.
the only thing that matters is the pro level.
and i dont get why people talk about imbalance in lower levels. on lower levels you can choose what builds you do and just because one build is easier to execute than another build doesnt mean that it is OP or whatever.
... i actually dont know what imbalance in lower levels means.
Ease of execution absolutely needs to be factored into balance
On March 02 2014 09:30 _Epi_ wrote: I think one of the core issue is the High Templar
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp!
This is what needs to happen:
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression.
-Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use.
The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
Half your post is wrong.
MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game.
Protoss can't lose their Stalkers for free and be fine, but they can lose their Stalkers in a bad trade and be fine. Take game 3 from Polt vs. Classic at IEM, on Yeonsu. Classic loses 16 Probes to a runby, then loses over 20 Stalkers to a dedicated "all in" pressure build while killing nothing but 2/3 of Polt's army... and then actually does OK against Polt's counter attacks! Polt was in a dominant position after the Stalkers died, but if those 16 Probes hadn't died, there's absolutely no way that result happens. If he hadn't outsmarted and outmulti-tasked Classic, Classic would have come out of his failed pressure build on even footing.
And your PO change suggestion would just neuter the spell. It would have ⅔ of sentry DPS against non-shield. This doesn't defend anything in any matchup.
First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP, which is where every Protoss says it's needed. It's not needed in PvT, because Protoss were fine at holding Terran early aggression in late WOL, and Terran early aggression hasn't improved much but Protoss scouting, harassment, pressure, and defense has all improved even if we neuter PO. There's no reason why Protoss need it, so yes, I'm neutering it, because I want to see bad Protoss plays get punished by instantly dying like they did back in WOL. What was not fine about Protoss early game in WOL was limited ability to scout (fixed by existence of MSC), limited ability to harass/do pressure builds (fixed by MSC/Oracle/Blink Stalkers), and reliance on Obs (fixed by MSC/Halluc/Oracle). Neutering PO and TW doesn't change ANY of those things.
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp!
This is what needs to happen:
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression.
-Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use.
The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
Half your post is wrong.
MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game.
Protoss can't lose their Stalkers for free and be fine, but they can lose their Stalkers in a bad trade and be fine. Take game 3 from Polt vs. Classic at IEM, on Yeonsu. Classic loses 16 Probes to a runby, then loses over 20 Stalkers to a dedicated "all in" pressure build while killing nothing but 2/3 of Polt's army... and then actually does OK against Polt's counter attacks! Polt was in a dominant position after the Stalkers died, but if those 16 Probes hadn't died, there's absolutely no way that result happens. If he hadn't outsmarted and outmulti-tasked Classic, Classic would have come out of his failed pressure build on even footing.
Dude, you need to think more about what you're saying. What the fuck is "dedicated "all in" pressure"? It cannot be both. If I didn't know how the game played out I'd have no idea what you're talking about. You just throw around terms like all-in and pressure build and it makes no sense whatsoever.
That being said Classic didn't do OK against Polts counterattack. He barely did anything. He barely could do anything. Polt stims, mindlessly chases 3 stalkers but only gets 1+1 zealot, stims again and now he's trapped in a corner by zealots who just now get charge. This attack was horribly bad.
The rest of this paragraph doesn't make any sense to me. If those 16 probes didn't die then either Polt didn't trade 10 army supply for them or Classic finds that group and kills it. Either way the outcome would have been obviously different. The next part is just weird. What is wrong with coming out even after applying pressure? I'd think coming out even is actually a fail, still fine but a fail nevertheless, since the whole point of pressuring is getting ahead. That last sentence is pure speculation and not worthy of any discussion.
And your PO change suggestion would just neuter the spell. It would have ⅔ of sentry DPS against non-shield. This doesn't defend anything in any matchup.
First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP, which is where every Protoss says it's needed. It's not needed in PvT, because Protoss were fine at holding Terran early aggression in late WOL, and Terran early aggression hasn't improved much but Protoss scouting, harassment, pressure, and defense has all improved even if we neuter PO. There's no reason why Protoss need it, so yes, I'm neutering it, because I want to see bad Protoss plays get punished by instantly dying like they did back in WOL. What was not fine about Protoss early game in WOL was limited ability to scout (fixed by existence of MSC), limited ability to harass/do pressure builds (fixed by MSC/Oracle/Blink Stalkers), and reliance on Obs (fixed by MSC/Halluc/Oracle). Neutering PO and TW doesn't change ANY of those things.
So I don't see how half of my post is wrong.
Now we're talking. I do agree bad players should instantly lose for a single mistake. That certainly makes for a better game.
First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP
+Shield damage means that it removes Shield, not extra damage to shielded units. Which means it will do the same damage to a Zealot untill it loses it's shield, then it does 5 damage.
Now we're talking. I do agree bad players should instantly lose for a single mistake. That certainly makes for a better game.
How big of an error are we talking Oo, we want to be able to see comeback games, actually most of the time.
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
MSC vision is such a small part of the problem. The truth is there is no consequence for Protoss fucking up in early game PvT. A Protoss can lose a shitton of Stalkers and be FINE because he has PO and Time Warp to save him back home, which requires zero effort to use. A Protoss can proxy build an Oracle, lose the Oracle without doing damage, lose the Stargate and Pylon, and be perfectly fine, because he's already outexpanded the Terran because the Terran has no ability to punish greed because, say it with me now... PO and Time Warp!
This is what needs to happen:
-PO damage changed from 20 to 5+15 vs. Shields - just as good for PvP, but in PvT/Z there will be consequences for failed Protoss aggression.
-Time Warp is a Cyber Core upgrade that slows friendly units as well as enemies - this spell is as broken as FG back in BL/Infestor, and just as no skill to use. It enables early Stalker pressure and shuts down Terran micro throughout the game. It needs to be tougher to get and tougher to use.
The only thing wrong with early game PvT in WOL was that Protoss had no way of getting aggressive. All that's changed for Terran early game since WOL is Hellbats and Widow Mines, hardly game changers, so removing ALL Protoss HOTS early game changes would give us a perfectly functional, if boring, early game!!! It's that simple. But Protoss aggression is a good thing that should be encouraged, so the MSC can still scout, the MSC can still help early pressure builds, the MSC can still defend even in PvT, the MSC can recall a chunk of army back to base to defend against Medivac drops. Even TW will be around. But pressure builds, Oracle harass, and TW will all have consequences attached now -- if you do them, you better execute perfectly and catch the opponent off guard, or he'll have a huge window of opportunity to counter/get greedy. As it should be.
Half your post is wrong.
MSC vision is the most important part of early blink builds as it is available earlier than observers while being 75 gas cheaper. This is also the reason it's not feasible for Terran to proxy anything. With the MSC Protoss has an additional unit to scout half the map with on top of providing PO. I don't know what you consider a shitton of stalkers but let me assure you, you cannot lose a bunch of production cycles for free and be fine. You may take a bad fight and transition out of the attack because your stalkers have blink and it's still their strong period in the game.
Protoss can't lose their Stalkers for free and be fine, but they can lose their Stalkers in a bad trade and be fine. Take game 3 from Polt vs. Classic at IEM, on Yeonsu. Classic loses 16 Probes to a runby, then loses over 20 Stalkers to a dedicated "all in" pressure build while killing nothing but 2/3 of Polt's army... and then actually does OK against Polt's counter attacks! Polt was in a dominant position after the Stalkers died, but if those 16 Probes hadn't died, there's absolutely no way that result happens. If he hadn't outsmarted and outmulti-tasked Classic, Classic would have come out of his failed pressure build on even footing.
Dude, you need to think more about what you're saying. What the fuck is "dedicated "all in" pressure"? It cannot be both. If I didn't know how the game played out I'd have no idea what you're talking about. You just throw around terms like all-in and pressure build and it makes no sense whatsoever.
People (including me) incorrectly call early Blink Stalker pressure an "all in" when it has long, long since stopped being one. It's a heavy pressure build that has the game-ending potential of an all-in, but none of the commitment. Sorry if my flip-flop terms confused you.
The next part is just weird. What is wrong with coming out even after applying pressure? I'd think coming out even is actually a fail, still fine but a fail nevertheless, since the whole point of pressuring is getting ahead.
What's wrong is the ratio of risk/reward. If something has high risk, it should have a high reward. If something has low risk, it should have a low reward. This is very common sense stuff. If there is very little risk to applying heavy pressure with Blink Stalkers while expanding and teching to Templars at the same time, then it should not have the ability to end games at the drop of a hat.
That last sentence is pure speculation and not worthy of any discussion.
It's speculation that having 16 workers mining for over 5 minutes would have seriously helped Classic defend at the 14 minute mark? You cannot be serious.
First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP
+Shield damage means that it removes Shield, not extra damage to shielded units. Which means it will do the same damage to a Zealot untill it loses it's shield, then it does 5 damage.
Then have it deal 5+65 shield damage -- that would give the Nexus a lot more power at the beginning of engagements, and units killed early will snowball in the defense's favor.
How big of an error are we talking Oo, we want to be able to see comeback games, actually most of the time.
We want to be able to see worthy players make comebacks.
As a gold leauge player I dont give to rats if its an even skill match (being balanced). Putting me against other gold leauge players is balancing the game for lower leauge players. So if that means it's easier to be gold as one race then another thats fine. You choose your race, change if you dont like it. It's for the top 50 odd players that play the game because I dont want to watch one race dominate no matter what it is, or who I go for.
First of all, it defends just fine in PvP because I didn't change it for PvP, which is where every Protoss says it's needed. It's not needed in PvT, because Protoss were fine at holding Terran early aggression in late WOL, and Terran early aggression hasn't improved much but Protoss scouting, harassment, pressure, and defense has all improved even if we neuter PO. There's no reason why Protoss need it, so yes, I'm neutering it, because I want to see bad Protoss plays get punished by instantly dying like they did back in WOL. What was not fine about Protoss early game in WOL was limited ability to scout (fixed by existence of MSC), limited ability to harass/do pressure builds (fixed by MSC/Oracle/Blink Stalkers), and reliance on Obs (fixed by MSC/Halluc/Oracle). Neutering PO and TW doesn't change ANY of those things.
You're forgetting a rather important difference here. In WOL, Protoss didn't have to deal with medivac boost. Part of the reason Photon Overcharge exists is to deal with the fact that Protoss' ground-to-air anti-air is kinda bad and too slow compared to medivacs (it suffers from the same issue here as it does versus muta). Pro Terran drops would be practically unstoppable without Photon overcharge. It would pidgeonhole Protoss into opening phoenix or defensive blink pretty much every game in order to not completely die to drops.
Drops in WOL were manageable because they were slow enough that they offered Protoss an opportunity to catch them with stalkers, and made it reasonable to defend because there was that chance to snipe the medivacs. In HOTS, that simply isn't the case because the cooldown on boost is such that it allows Terran to boost in,drop, do damage, and when defence arrives, pick up and boost out.
This argument simply does not hold. WOL is a different game. An equivalent argument would be saying that Phoenix range should be reduced in HOTS because in WOL Protoss could defend mass muta with blink/storm. They're different games and what applied in one does not always apply in the other.
Oh but it has no attack. So it's perfectly reasonable that one or two high templars can dent 30+ supply against Terran opponents. It's the Terran's fault for eating storms. Good Terrans never eat storms but even the best protoss cannot dodge emps. Why? Because emp is instant damage. INSTANT. You know it's powerful because it's instant.
I don't believe that
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place.
Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability.
On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote: [quote] He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place.
Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability.
Yeah but that was way before the queen buff and way before broodlord infestor was an issue.
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place.
Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability.
Yeah but that was way before the queen buff and way before broodlord infestor was an issue.
I can't remember the time frame, but it was around the time fungle got it's DPS upgraded. Either way, it was a blow to Protoss at the time. Still, fungles really kicked the shit out of sentries, which is way it was so awsome back in the day. It was the way to stop a bunch of timings.
On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote: [quote] this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Long ago, stalkers could blink after thy were fungles. Then Blizzard upgraded Zergs acid-snot tech and the the stalkers were rooted in place.
Blink may be the most nerfed ability in SC2. Not that it is a bad thing, but it shows the utility of the ability.
Yeah but that was way before the queen buff and way before broodlord infestor was an issue.
I can't remember the time frame, but it was around the time fungle got it's DPS upgraded. Either way, it was a blow to Protoss at the time. Still, fungles really kicked the shit out of sentries, which is way it was so awsome back in the day. It was the way to stop a bunch of timings.
Fungal prevented stalkers from blinking in a patch from October 2010, so very quickly after release. This was half a year before fungal dps was improved. The reason for the change was because it seemed to accentuate the rooting aspect of fungal and because infestors were seen as useless back then. And it wasn't a "blow to protoss", most protoss players didn't care because nobody made infestors.
Ah, now I remember. My memory of blink nerfs is so fuzzy because there were been so many and all of them are so tiny. I thought it was a bigger deal, but that may have been the dps the dps buff and I am conflating the two.
Can you please provide us with a game of two high level player where the Terran doesn't eat a storms because he dodges every single storm?
From what I've seen on Pro streams in many games is that even Teaja, Polt, Innovation, Byun, Marineking get their armies demolished by storms from time to time. No Terran can dodge every storm in a TvP vs an at least equally skilled Protoss. If EMP would have the same delay as storms it wouldn't make a difference because the Protoss army is way slower.
However in my opinion the issue is not with the Templar but within the Warpgate design.
Protoss players can use it to:
- Offensively warp in units - Defensively to defend drops (additional to Photon Overcharge) - Spend a bank of money to instantly rebuild a strong army
What is so strong about it: - Build time (faster than normal Gateway build time) - Chronoboost (makes the build time even faster) - Lack of opportunity costs (apart from proxy builds Gateways don't offer any advantage over Warpgates)
He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast.
As for splash damage working differently for each AoE, I think it is because AOEs are so powerful that you need to tweak it in order to make sure it is balance. Things like banes and colossus with friendly fire just couldn't work.
On March 02 2014 23:32 ETisME wrote: [quote] He is joking
Also one reason why storms are hitting more often is because protoss players are getting better, most kespa players are doing a lot of ht flanks, some would do warp prism ht storm and split up their hts.
from the list of terrans you put up, only taeja really uses ghost heavy TvP style.
It's understandable that storm is extremely good when terran is "forced" to play marine marauder mid game and has smaller room to add ghost tech.
Warp in is fine. You have to remember it was never much of a problem back in WoL since gateway army is horrible against a nice bio ball anyway. Terran's heavy marauder ghost viking in WoL was pretty insanely powerful against anything protoss can throw at them. It's just that in hots, it is harder to survive until that stage and even if the terran does get to that stage, protoss can start having tempests out which makes things a lot harder for terran
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast.
fungal was instant back in WoL, they can't blink out before it landed. It had always been a commit or don't commit engagement when it comes to bl infestor.
You can't compare HoTS with WoL. Gateway army is great against bio until stim and medivacs are out. In WoL, this forced the Protoss to make at least 5-6 sentries to defend that stim+2 medivac push. But with the MsC, that push is no longer effective because Protoss has MSC, so you see Protoss going with 1-2 sentries for guardian shield and going for early storm and quicker third. So by the time Terran has 6 medivacs to overcome the photon overcharge, Protoss already have storm.
That is why Terrans have been having a hard time, the timing window to 'push' back is so small.
this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast.
fungal was instant back in WoL, they can't blink out before it landed. It had always been a commit or don't commit engagement when it comes to bl infestor.
I always thought this was funny: fungal used to be a projectile, then it became instant cast, then it would root stalkers, then blizzard decided to increase the dps. Constant buffs because the community complained about how weak infestors were. Blizzard suggested to change fungal back to a projectile in 2011 and the zerg players revolted and demanded buffs. (the idra effect was strong back then)
On March 03 2014 00:16 ETisME wrote: [quote] this is why i said terran is "forced" to play marine marauder. warp gate tech is not the issue, it's the early game snowballing
but early game warp gate tech is one of the reasons protoss get the early game snowballing. It is also one of the reasons that PvP needs a 60 second overcharge. Warp ins makes it so that if you get an early army advantage (even 1 or 2 stalkers), it just snowballs because your production can arrive so close to the base.
Things like blink all-ins would be a lot weaker if the protoss needed to walk reinforcement stalkers across the map.
Of course, it isn't just the warp in tech only. It is more a combination of warp in, MsC and the possibility of oracle play that is forcing the terran into very narrow tech paths/builds. That is true for most OP builds. BL/infestors was a combination of Queens, bigger maps, better creep spread, and then finally BL/infestors themselves. 1-1-1 was combination of banshee harass + marines + tank range + maps + terran wall off not allowing protoss to scout.
PvP needs an overcharge is because how coin flipping it is. Warp in tech is a feature, you can't just say it is why protoss is doing great now. in WoL, generally Terran has a great map control when medivacs are out. Warp gate tech only helps in defending them and that part of the game is perfectly balance. (because splitting up protoss army is more complicated than splitting up marine marauder in two locations)
The whole blink all in and how protoss is played out is warp in tech. there wouldn't even be blink all in if the stalkers needs to walk all the way from the home base.
The fact that blink all in in WoL is largely defendable even with warp gate tech is not because terran player is uber good or protoss player is horrible. It's just that in hots, blink all in is a lot stronger, with the current map and faster high ground vision unit that gives great support to blink stalkers.
also zvz micro also is about maintaining the concave. You can see how zerg keeps readjusting the army position to allow better concaves or punch through a weaker army positioning on one side (see tefel vs sort of yesterday zotac cup), especially more of repositioning when hydras are involved.
Yes, but the game is a bit more complicated then that. BL/infestors were only a problem after the Queen buff and yet it was the fungal that was nerfed. Blizzard could have nerfed the Queen back down instead but then we are back to square one.
Sure, you can bring back WoL early game balance in PvT if we just removed the MsC. But then we are back to WoL. When you add in a unit/buff a unit in the game, it creates synergy with features/units. And sometimes that synergy could be too much. One great example is hellbat drops. What made hellbats drops so good?
1) Medivac speed boost 2) Medivacs healing hellbats 3) Hellbat early game damage
It wasn't only 1 thing that made it strong, it is the combination. For P, it is the offensive capabilities of forward warp gates plus the offensive/scouting capabilities of MsC that is making them strong early game.
Infestor broodlord in PvZ had nothing to do with the queen buff. Nerfing queens back down would have helped in TvZ, but PvZ would have remained a horrific clusterfuck, so nerfing fungal was a better option.
But Fungal nerf wasn't really that big for PvZ. The biggest affect was mainly that blink stalkers could blink out of fungal but it is not like zealots, sentries, voidrays could dodge out of the new fungals.
And Queen's did affect PvZ (although not as much as TvZ), the additional range made probe scouting vs zerg harder so protoss had to play safer against things like bane bust/roach bust.
Um, stalkers could never blink out of fungal? Once they were hit they were stuck, still are. If you mean you could dodge them, then sure, but that didn't matter for the actual engagement.
Yeah, I meant they could blink out before the fungals landed. And it does matter for 3 bases stalker colo pushes designed to hit before BLs. It is a pretty big deal to have your lead stalkers caught by fungals because then, you lose the anti air you need to kill the corruptors quickly when means you colossi are forced down fast.
fungal was instant back in WoL, they can't blink out before it landed. It had always been a commit or don't commit engagement when it comes to bl infestor.
I always thought this was funny: fungal used to be a projectile, then it became instant cast, then it would root stalkers, then blizzard decided to increase the dps. Constant buffs because the community complained about how weak infestors were. Blizzard suggested to change fungal back to a projectile in 2011 and the zerg players revolted and demanded buffs. (the idra effect was strong back then)
You mean it isn't strong now? It looks to have disseminated itself across the population like some virus.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
Plus I think you can justify it in the lore. Tank shells just explode, but Colossu lasers sweep from side to side thus it's totally feasible to splash sideways onto other marines but not on the Zealots :D THE SCIENCE OF LASERS
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
Plus I think you can justify it in the lore. Tank shells just explode, but Colossu lasers sweep from side to side thus it's totally feasible to splash sideways onto other marines but not on the Zealots :D THE SCIENCE OF LASERS
Storm does splash to our own units as well. Banelings don't do friendly fire either. I think it's fine for some AoE to do friendly fire and some not to.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units.
It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units.
It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks.
I think his point was that the point the first post tried to make is not valid.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units.
It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks.
I think his point was that the point the first post tried to make is not valid.
It's not related to balance, I just thought it was curious that widow mine splash functions uniquely now. There is no other unit to my knowledge that does bonus damage for its splash(edit: forgot about the baneling), that does different damage depending on the unit as all protoss units have different shield values, and that doesn't do either full or zero splash for friendly fire but somewhere in between.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
Plus I think you can justify it in the lore. Tank shells just explode, but Colossu lasers sweep from side to side thus it's totally feasible to splash sideways onto other marines but not on the Zealots :D THE SCIENCE OF LASERS
Lol. They don't do ff-splash because at some point in the past someone at blizzard decided that they don't. That's all there is to it. If the decision was right could be argued about. I would say a little bit more microsensitivity would not hurt toss, so I think they should do splash to the own units. I also doubt that FF on the colossus would make a big difference because of the form of the splash. The round splash of tanks and mines is far more problematic.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
Going heavy on Stalkers in late game PvT is quite bad.
Zealots would have to be much stronger if there was friendly splash from Colossus. Storm splashes, but you're generally not casting it on top of that first line of marines that is getting charged at. You're usually pulling back your zealots and bringing out your Templar to storm the charging army.
I don't think its possible to "add more micro to protoss" by adding Colossus splash because then you'd never be able to have Zealots and Colossus attacking the same target (otherwise your Zealots would all get fried).
I don't think you can require all the races to function exactly the same. I mean, you can Stim Marines AND Marauders at the same time and when you do, all your medivacs immediately start healing them and following them around. What's the justification for that? Get my drift? SO the issue of Colossus splash is just a logisitcal one rather than a fairness one.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
Isn't that unprecedented? Previously it used to be equal friendly fire or zero friendly fire, but now it's in between. (maybe I'm missing one)
Colossus can't do friendly fire since Protoss has Zealots which are melee units (Terran has no melee units). Zealots melt to Colossus fire in PvP, we'd stand no chance in PvT w/ friendly fire.
And when Protoss goes heavy on the Stalkers while the Terran engages against Lings/Blings/Fungals from melee range, the excuse for the difference is...?
Made up for by the fact that storm has friendly fire, while fungle and EMP(which can drain mana to friendly units, but that never happens) can't damage their own units.
EMP, Nukes, Tanks, Seeker Missiles all have FF... and this is made up for by the fact that EMP doesn't hurt friendly units in the current meta?
So I guess if Stalker/HT composition became viable, you'd be up in arms because Psionic Storm no longer damaged Protoss units?
It's sort of the same reasons why medivacs auto heal the best target or why stim in on one button for two different units. Every race has it's weird perks.
Um, I'm pretty sure that Stim is on the same button because it's the same ability. Just like Burrow is on the same button for every ground Zerg unit... because it's the same ability.
As for Medivac AI, the special AI for the Terran comes with special AI for the Terran's opponent - unlike BW Medics and Dropships, Medivacs have standard attack priority. No unfair advantages here.
At some point Blizzard decided that it would be cool if Terran armies were really hard to use, while Zerg and Protoss weren't. They were wrong. Then they accidentally made ZvT take the same amount of skill for both sides by introducing the WM. Then they realized what they'd done, gave a hearty laugh, and nerfed the WM into the ground.
Protoss and Zerg need to be every single bit as mechanically demanding as Terran. If a Protoss looks away from his army in PvT for 3 seconds, it should be able to melt the exact same way Terran bio melts against Banelings. If a Protoss A-moves his army, it should have the efficiency of an A-moved Terran mech army. HOTS TvZ proved that it is possible for asymmetric races to take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play in SC2. Settling for anything short of that, now that we've had conclusive proof, is disgustingly lazy. I disagreed with settling for it before we had proof. Now I don't see how the point can even be argued.
I don't think its possible to "add more micro to protoss" by adding Colossus splash because then you'd never be able to have Zealots and Colossus attacking the same target (otherwise your Zealots would all get fried).
Just like how Terrans aren't able to have Marines and Siege Tanks fighting waves of Ling/Bling?
If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say.
Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say.
Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
I don't think Blizzard should balance the game based on what people find to be fun or peoples opinion on what is harder. I am sure there are some zergs out there who would love to talk about injects and how hard it was to get that down to a science. People are always going to have an ax to grind about the thing they do not do well at in the game and claim that the other races have it so easy. Terran and protoss are no different.
hydra buff is stupid op... especially when every single zerg goes for hydra-ling... ya sure rush for colossus, but cmon... zealots and stalkers melt way too fast...
On March 04 2014 09:43 Advantageous wrote: hydra buff is stupid op... especially when every single zerg goes for hydra-ling... ya sure rush for colossus, but cmon... zealots and stalkers melt way too fast...
maybe your problem is you're fighting hydra-ling with literally the worst possible composition against it?? like if someone asked me for the perfect protoss army to fight with a bunch of hydra-ling i would probably say "zealots and stalkers." if you don't have good forcefield and sim city then it doesn't matter whether it's hydra-ling or 50 roaches, you're going to get rolled. force the hydra-ling to come to your base, then use photon overcharge + forcefields to trade acceptably while your tech comes out to push it away
hydra ling is meta against p because of stargate play, you can't just complain that when you open phoenix or a greedy third base 9/10 games zerg is going to start going into games planning to counter that
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say.
Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
Zerg and Protoss are hard to play in ways you cannot begin to imagine as a Terran player. Every race has its pros and cons.
Zerg needs to scout whether it's safe to make workers (yes, that's a thing), spread creep, inject, tech, research upgrades, all while not losing all their banelings to a single widow mine (which are invisible). They also need to be able to micro their ass off in ling bane vs. ling bane wars. If you haven't played Zerg I suggest you try and let me know if you still think it's "easier."
Protoss is VERY unforgiving. You might think Terran engagements are hard, but every single aspect of Protoss is unforgiving. If you get dropped and lose a few workers, you lose. If you take an engagement in the open, you lose. Hell, I've lost more games than I can count because ONE forcefield was ONE hex off.
All the races are hard. StarCraft is a hard game. Terran is not harder.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say.
Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
Zerg and Protoss are hard to play in ways you cannot begin to imagine as a Terran player. Every race has its pros and cons.
Zerg needs to scout whether it's safe to make workers (yes, that's a thing), spread creep, inject, tech, research upgrades, all while not losing all their banelings to a single widow mine (which are invisible). They also need to be able to micro their ass off in ling bane vs. ling bane wars. If you haven't played Zerg I suggest you try and let me know if you still think it's "easier."
Protoss is VERY unforgiving. You might think Terran engagements are hard, but every single aspect of Protoss is unforgiving. If you pick a tech route and it's countered, you lose. If you get dropped and lose a few workers, you lose. If you take an engagement in the open, you lose. Hell, I've lost more games than I can count because ONE forcefield was ONE hex off.
All the races are hard. StarCraft is a hard game. Terran is not harder.
Protoss early game is very forgiving in TvP. Photon overcharge holds any kind of counter-attack when a Terran defends a proxy.
Other than that, yeah, sc2 is a very unforgiving game.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
Yea, delving into why this unit does FF spash and why this unit does not, inevitably leads to no where. It's just the game design, and what I believe to be their goal of 3 unique races with completely different ideals. To achieve balance, is damn hard, but hey they are trying!
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
I think the lead Protoss gets from having Terran overdefend makes them strong entering the late game, but I think if both enter on the same economic footing it's even. The better player wins.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Come on, man. I even bolded the part of my post that answered this point. For emphasis.
Early HOTS Terran vs. Zerg proves that our standards for this game are far too low. It is possible to have two deeply asymmetric races, like Terran Bio + Mine and Zerg Ling/Bling/Muta, that take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play. The ONLY problem with that MU was that it had gotten stale -- we've been watching Marines split against Banes for 3 years at that point and despite the new Ling vs. Mine baits and Mine vs. Muta, there just wasn't enough room to do anything else. Blizzard's solution? Make Z easier to micro in battle by nerfing the mine -- first with Muta regen, then with Mine splash radius!
The degree of mechanical skill that went into TvZ should be THE NORM that we expect from EVERY SINGLE MU.
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
Uh, Terran foreigners have been irrelevant for a lot longer than 6 months. I can't remember when Terran foreigners weren't irrelevant, in fact. It's going to take a lot more than a change in maps to make that not the case.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
In WOL, Terran had advantage in early and midgame, Protoss had advantage in late game. That's why Terrans tried to end the game in the midgame either through lots of econ harass or through powerful all in timings.
Terrans lost their early and midgame advantage because of the MSC. Nothing changed to make Protoss lose their edge in the late game.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Come on, man. I even bolded the part of my post that answered this point. For emphasis.
Early HOTS Terran vs. Zerg proves that our standards for this game are far too low. It is possible to have two deeply asymmetric races, like Terran Bio + Mine and Zerg Ling/Bling/Muta, that take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play. The ONLY problem with that MU was that it had gotten stale -- we've been watching Marines split against Banes for 3 years at that point and despite the new Ling vs. Mine baits and Mine vs. Muta, there just wasn't enough room to do anything else. Blizzard's solution? Make Z easier to micro in battle by nerfing the mine -- first with Muta regen, then with Mine splash radius!
The degree of mechanical skill that went into TvZ should be THE NORM that we expect from EVERY SINGLE MU.
but you can't have protoss be designed around a slow, wrecking ball type army and ALSO require the same mechanical commitment. i agree, it would be great as a zerg player if my APM weren't automatically 50 points higher in zvt than it is in zvp, and if an even-skilled protoss tended to have the same APM as me as well. but that would require a complete overhaul of how protoss works and where its strengths and weaknesses lie. it's like saying "protoss units shouldn't have so much HP, zerglings die so fast and zealots live forever!" protoss needs to have sturdier and more threatening units in a standing engagement in order for their relative lack of mobility and the time it takes them to hit their stride with tech. the fact that big, slow, beefy units require less micro is a matter of plain fact and common sense, not design. why do you think zerg has to fight terran mech essentially the same way we fight protoss (except mech being weaker in the early and midgame)? i understand that you're saying "it can be better," but when you say that it requires that you also ask questions like "how can this specific matchup realistically be made better?"
don't get me wrong, i hate protoss design right now. but saying "it's bad! it's bad! mechanically forgiving!" is the same thing we've been hearing for months and doesn't contribute to forward-thinking ideas about how to gradually fix what's wrong with the race or the matchups
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
I think the lead Protoss gets from having Terran overdefend makes them strong entering the late game, but I think if both enter on the same economic footing it's even. The better player wins.
the reason protoss is considered favored vs terran is that terran HAS to do damage (or at least get an eco advantage) before entering later stages while protoss is fine keeping up on par most of the time. sometimes this works out in favor of the terran, sometimes for protoss; some are decided by better micro and some look very onesided
overall balance is solid, although i think the reasonable size of BO wins protoss can pull off is slightly too high. it's not that terran isn't unpredictable aswell but the answer protoss has to all those different builds is the same (MSC).
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
Uh, Terran foreigners have been irrelevant for a lot longer than 6 months. I can't remember when Terran foreigners weren't irrelevant, in fact. It's going to take a lot more than a change in maps to make that not the case.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
In WOL, Terran had advantage in early and midgame, Protoss had advantage in late game. That's why Terrans tried to end the game in the midgame either through lots of econ harass or through powerful all in timings.
Terrans lost their early and midgame advantage because of the MSC. Nothing changed to make Protoss lose their edge in the late game.
Thats because top level terran foreigners are either predictable or whiney. I am a huge fan of Demuslim, but if I watched him fail to scout one more game I would rip my hair out. Korean players are not super human and if they were winning, foreign terrans could to. Obviously protoss has had the upper hand for a couple of months, but back when Korean terrans were crushing face, foreign terrans could too.
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
Uh, Terran foreigners have been irrelevant for a lot longer than 6 months. I can't remember when Terran foreigners weren't irrelevant, in fact. It's going to take a lot more than a change in maps to make that not the case.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
In WOL, Terran had advantage in early and midgame, Protoss had advantage in late game. That's why Terrans tried to end the game in the midgame either through lots of econ harass or through powerful all in timings.
Terrans lost their early and midgame advantage because of the MSC. Nothing changed to make Protoss lose their edge in the late game.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Come on, man. I even bolded the part of my post that answered this point. For emphasis.
Early HOTS Terran vs. Zerg proves that our standards for this game are far too low. It is possible to have two deeply asymmetric races, like Terran Bio + Mine and Zerg Ling/Bling/Muta, that take roughly the same amount of mechanical skill to play. The ONLY problem with that MU was that it had gotten stale -- we've been watching Marines split against Banes for 3 years at that point and despite the new Ling vs. Mine baits and Mine vs. Muta, there just wasn't enough room to do anything else. Blizzard's solution? Make Z easier to micro in battle by nerfing the mine -- first with Muta regen, then with Mine splash radius!
The degree of mechanical skill that went into TvZ should be THE NORM that we expect from EVERY SINGLE MU.
but you can't have protoss be designed around a slow, wrecking ball type army and ALSO require the same mechanical commitment. i agree, it would be great as a zerg player if my APM weren't automatically 50 points higher in zvt than it is in zvp, and if an even-skilled protoss tended to have the same APM as me as well. but that would require a complete overhaul of how protoss works and where its strengths and weaknesses lie. it's like saying "protoss units shouldn't have so much HP, zerglings die so fast and zealots live forever!" protoss needs to have sturdier and more threatening units in a standing engagement in order for their relative lack of mobility and the time it takes them to hit their stride with tech. the fact that big, slow, beefy units require less micro is a matter of plain fact and common sense, not design. why do you think zerg has to fight terran mech essentially the same way we fight protoss (except mech being weaker in the early and midgame)? i understand that you're saying "it can be better," but when you say that it requires that you also ask questions like "how can this specific matchup realistically be made better?"
don't get me wrong, i hate protoss design right now. but saying "it's bad! it's bad! mechanically forgiving!" is the same thing we've been hearing for months and doesn't contribute to forward-thinking ideas about how to gradually fix what's wrong with the race or the matchups
I posted a gradual fix on the previous page.
PO damage change from 20 to 5+55 Shields (or whatever would give it basically the same amount of dps accounting for the fact that shields make up only half of a unit's HP), Time Warp a Cyber Core research and affects friendly units.
This would go a long way to evening out the playing field until LOTV. My guess is it would be enough. PO fixes WOL PvP, MSC and Halluc give Protoss scouting and pressure, MSC/Oracle allow Protoss to go Stargate, Twilight, or Templar bypassing the Robo. That's literally all Protoss needed in WOL.
Then once LOTV is in the works, the race needs to be redesigned as you say. This is Blizzard's last chance, and compared with their previous expansions -- BW and TFT, the ones that actually didn't matter as much when they were being made -- Blizzard took a straight up vacation with HOTS. They should be all rested up and ready to go by now.
Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say.
Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
Zerg and Protoss are hard to play in ways you cannot begin to imagine as a Terran player. Every race has its pros and cons.
Zerg needs to scout whether it's safe to make workers (yes, that's a thing), spread creep, inject, tech, research upgrades, all while not losing all their banelings to a single widow mine (which are invisible). They also need to be able to micro their ass off in ling bane vs. ling bane wars. If you haven't played Zerg I suggest you try and let me know if you still think it's "easier."
Protoss is VERY unforgiving. You might think Terran engagements are hard, but every single aspect of Protoss is unforgiving. If you get dropped and lose a few workers, you lose. If you take an engagement in the open, you lose. Hell, I've lost more games than I can count because ONE forcefield was ONE hex off.
All the races are hard. StarCraft is a hard game. Terran is not harder.
sorry, yes it is. not really an argument to be had here anymore.
On March 04 2014 08:27 pure.Wasted wrote: If the design creates balance issues, those balance issues can be resolved. If it means Zealots will have to have 400 HP for the game to be fair, then so be it -- as long as it actually is fair.
...
This is not imbalance. This is difference in design. If you don't want to micro against splash damage, don't play Terran. But don't expect that the races have to do everything exactly the same. The difference in how the races play is part of the charm of this game relative to other RTS games like Age of Empires, where only 1 unit/upgrade is different for each "race."
Asymmetry = not all races are given the same tools Balance = all races can win if they use the tools they are given effectively
I think you will find that as far as RTS games go SC2 is quite balanced given how a symmetrical it is.
He's arguing that the design of the races being fun and fair is paramount, not the "balance" per say.
Playing Terran is harder than playing Protoss, that isn't really up for debate. It doesn't make sense that Siege Tanks and Widow Mines do a large amount of friendly fire to the user's own units, while Colossi and Banelings do not. He's saying that it isn't fair that Protoss and Zerg are able to punish Terrans for small mistakes in ways that Terran cannot reciprocate.
Zerg and Protoss are hard to play in ways you cannot begin to imagine as a Terran player. Every race has its pros and cons.
Zerg needs to scout whether it's safe to make workers (yes, that's a thing), spread creep, inject, tech, research upgrades, all while not losing all their banelings to a single widow mine (which are invisible). They also need to be able to micro their ass off in ling bane vs. ling bane wars. If you haven't played Zerg I suggest you try and let me know if you still think it's "easier."
Protoss is VERY unforgiving. You might think Terran engagements are hard, but every single aspect of Protoss is unforgiving. If you get dropped and lose a few workers, you lose. If you take an engagement in the open, you lose. Hell, I've lost more games than I can count because ONE forcefield was ONE hex off.
All the races are hard. StarCraft is a hard game. Terran is not harder.
sorry, yes it is. not really an argument to be had here anymore.
Oh, well if its not an argument any more, I guess we will all accept it as fact. Glad you are here to help us with this and to make sure we know what we shouldn't be discussing.
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
Uh, Terran foreigners have been irrelevant for a lot longer than 6 months. I can't remember when Terran foreigners weren't irrelevant, in fact. It's going to take a lot more than a change in maps to make that not the case.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
In WOL, Terran had advantage in early and midgame, Protoss had advantage in late game. That's why Terrans tried to end the game in the midgame either through lots of econ harass or through powerful all in timings.
Terrans lost their early and midgame advantage because of the MSC. Nothing changed to make Protoss lose their edge in the late game.
Thats because top level terran foreigners are either predictable or whiney. I am a huge fan of Demuslim, but if I watched him fail to scout one more game I would rip my hair out. Korean players are not super human and if they were winning, foreign terrans could to. Obviously protoss has had the upper hand for a couple of months, but back when Korean terrans were crushing face, foreign terrans could too.
Are you suggesting that foreign protosses and zergs aren't predictable or whiny?
The reason that foreign terrans never did well was that they couldn't really replicate the mid game multitasking and pressure the koreans terrans were able to pull off. With zerg and protoss, this type of aggression wasn't really the focal point, that is why the foreign zergs and protosses did better.
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
Uh, Terran foreigners have been irrelevant for a lot longer than 6 months. I can't remember when Terran foreigners weren't irrelevant, in fact. It's going to take a lot more than a change in maps to make that not the case.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
In WOL, Terran had advantage in early and midgame, Protoss had advantage in late game. That's why Terrans tried to end the game in the midgame either through lots of econ harass or through powerful all in timings.
Terrans lost their early and midgame advantage because of the MSC. Nothing changed to make Protoss lose their edge in the late game.
Thats because top level terran foreigners are either predictable or whiney. I am a huge fan of Demuslim, but if I watched him fail to scout one more game I would rip my hair out. Korean players are not super human and if they were winning, foreign terrans could to. Obviously protoss has had the upper hand for a couple of months, but back when Korean terrans were crushing face, foreign terrans could too.
Are you suggesting that foreign protosses and zergs aren't predictable or whiny?
The reason that foreign terrans never did well was that they couldn't really replicate the mid game multitasking and pressure the koreans terrans were able to pull off. With zerg and protoss, this type of aggression wasn't really the focal point, that is why the foreign zergs and protosses did better.
If that's the case, why arent foreigners terran killing zergs with mech?
You can compare TvT too, think back on gomtvt era, it's not that foreigners are losing because a lack of multitasking. It's day and night watching foreigner and Korean playing tvt ( there were exceptions but you get what I mean) It's the army positioning and movement etc that were winning the game.
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure. It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Protoss is definitely in a good spot because of the maps currently in the pool making blink all-ins extremely strong and its improved early/mid game. I was surprised that it took this long for people to realize how strong Protoss got with just the MSC. Now, 7-9 gate all ins are just really good because toss can easily deny scouting with the MSC and one stalker, as well as the overall fear of the million other all-ins/proxies Protoss can do viably.
However, the main issue is the fact that other races can't punish these risks without possibly losing the game outright. Coupling with the fact that Protoss has undeniably the best late game army (right compositions ofc), then a smart Protoss mixing cheese and macro should destroy everyone (think SoS at Blizzcon). IMHO, Protoss late game needs to be checked. There is just wayyyy too much AOE going on in late game fights for Protoss, that the other races can't keep up with. High Templars are slowly becoming WOL infestors. Nerfing Storm in some way or the splash damage from Archons might be a possible solution....
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
Well he did do it against some really good players. And the new patch should make Polt even better.
And I love this mythical world of accidental wins with Blink All-Ins. I can just see MC going "Woops" and holding his hand over his mouth.
On March 04 2014 09:43 Advantageous wrote: hydra buff is stupid op... especially when every single zerg goes for hydra-ling... ya sure rush for colossus, but cmon... zealots and stalkers melt way too fast...
maybe your problem is you're fighting hydra-ling with literally the worst possible composition against it?? like if someone asked me for the perfect protoss army to fight with a bunch of hydra-ling i would probably say "zealots and stalkers." if you don't have good forcefield and sim city then it doesn't matter whether it's hydra-ling or 50 roaches, you're going to get rolled. force the hydra-ling to come to your base, then use photon overcharge + forcefields to trade acceptably while your tech comes out to push it away
hydra ling is meta against p because of stargate play, you can't just complain that when you open phoenix or a greedy third base 9/10 games zerg is going to start going into games planning to counter that
What build can toss do that is safe against zerg who can counter anything or everything reactively after scouting? Stargate used to be the go-to opener because it was a safe way to harass and secure a third base, and then you could play from there. Zerg could defend well if he played very well, and could come out ahead if toss screwed up, or even if both players played correctly. If Protoss played better, toss could get ahead. This is a good dynamic, both players have opportunities for mistakes and both players can get ahead. If hydra/ling shuts down gateway and stargate play, and if you scout robo you just go spire and outright kill them with mutas because no phoenix, what can protoss do, exactly? 2 base all-in every game? If mutas didn't outright beat any protoss who can't get phoenix in time or can't beat you in a basetrade immediately, I'd agree with you that this is fine. The problem is that toss has to be prepared for mutas at all times.
A race like toss or terran that can't switch tech that quickly needs an all-around safe build that with proper and careful play breaks even with the zerg reactive counter, or they'll never beat zerg in a macro game, ever. It just so happens that terran has more options against zerg in that regard then protoss does because terran can deal with mutalisks a lot easier than protoss can, which they pre-empt with every standard build (bio/mine, just bio, mech, etc.) unless it's a weird all-in like marauder/hellbat. Protoss has only one way to deal with mutas: phoenix. If you don't have them, a muta switch kills you unless you can figure out how to stall for 2 minutes while you get them, and you're on 3 secured bases to have enough gas income, and you don't lose more than a few probes, which is nigh impossible.
Robo openers are dead in PvZ because of the buffed mutalisk: if it turns out that the hydra buff kills stargate openers into fast third, what macro build is protoss going to have? You'd better hope it doesn't kill that build, because it definitely kills gateway based play (hydra/ling was already the counter to pure gateway).
In short: zerg cannot have hard counters to every strategy the opposing race has: it can have soft counters and equivalent responses. Due to the ability to mass produce a new tech option explosively with injects, hard counter units would make zerg unbeatable.
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
Well he did do it against some really good players. And the new patch should make Polt even better.
And I love this mythical world of accidental wins with Blink All-Ins. I can just see MC going "Woops" and holding his hand over his mouth.
I've seen players do builds like oracle expands and get "whoops" kills cause Terrans either didn't scout it in time, or didn't have the right number of marines in place, or were just out of position.
Considering that's standard and doing no damage at all doesn't slow them down one bit, is that fair?
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
Well he did do it against some really good players. And the new patch should make Polt even better.
And I love this mythical world of accidental wins with Blink All-Ins. I can just see MC going "Woops" and holding his hand over his mouth.
I've seen players do builds like oracle expands and get "whoops" kills cause Terrans either didn't scout it in time, or didn't have the right number of marines in place, or were just out of position.
Considering that's standard and doing no damage at all doesn't slow them down one bit, is that fair?
Doing no damage does slow them down, compared to where they would be if they hadn't done an oracle expand. So yeah, doing no damage puts them in a worse position compared to a more normal expand into roboo, and the lack of observers is very difficult to play with.
On March 04 2014 10:12 TurboMaN wrote: Are you really arguing that Terran doesn't require more skill to play on the same level and that Protoss is as unforgiving as Terran? Made me laugh
At top level Terran is clearly the hardest race or why do you see so few non Korean Terrans? It's not because Terran is boring.
It's because all the top Koreans are not afraid of cheesing (vs non Koreans who cheese less) and the combination of maps and cheese options for Protoss was very strong. It will be interesting to see how this changes going forward with the patches.
Uh, Terran foreigners have been irrelevant for a lot longer than 6 months. I can't remember when Terran foreigners weren't irrelevant, in fact. It's going to take a lot more than a change in maps to make that not the case.
I do not think that at the late stages of a macro PvT either side is advantaged. I've seen Taeja kill 29 observers in a single game vs Rain where it looked like there was literally nothing Rain could do to win. And then he whined about how Protoss is too strong. I've also seen Protoss players like Parting ANNIHILATE Terrans and make it look unlosable.
In WOL, Terran had advantage in early and midgame, Protoss had advantage in late game. That's why Terrans tried to end the game in the midgame either through lots of econ harass or through powerful all in timings.
Terrans lost their early and midgame advantage because of the MSC. Nothing changed to make Protoss lose their edge in the late game.
Thats because top level terran foreigners are either predictable or whiney. I am a huge fan of Demuslim, but if I watched him fail to scout one more game I would rip my hair out. Korean players are not super human and if they were winning, foreign terrans could to. Obviously protoss has had the upper hand for a couple of months, but back when Korean terrans were crushing face, foreign terrans could too.
Are you suggesting that foreign protosses and zergs aren't predictable or whiny?
The reason that foreign terrans never did well was that they couldn't really replicate the mid game multitasking and pressure the koreans terrans were able to pull off. With zerg and protoss, this type of aggression wasn't really the focal point, that is why the foreign zergs and protosses did better.
If that's the case, why arent foreigners terran killing zergs with mech?
You can compare TvT too, think back on gomtvt era, it's not that foreigners are losing because a lack of multitasking. It's day and night watching foreigner and Korean playing tvt ( there were exceptions but you get what I mean) It's the army positioning and movement etc that were winning the game.
Multitasking doesn't just mean drops. Like you said, it is day and night watching Koreans playing TvT. There is constant movement of the army to poke for weakness in the defense WHILE macro'ing. This is also multitasking. Most foreign terrans go to 3 bases and just sit at their base and macro.
If you look at TvP, in the mid/late game, it is usually the terran that is moving around the map looking for holes. The protoss army isn't really built to be roaming around the map. You only really see P deathballs roam around in PvP. In vT and vZ, they usually sit at a central location and then send warp prism for harass.
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
Well he did do it against some really good players. And the new patch should make Polt even better.
And I love this mythical world of accidental wins with Blink All-Ins. I can just see MC going "Woops" and holding his hand over his mouth.
I've seen players do builds like oracle expands and get "whoops" kills cause Terrans either didn't scout it in time, or didn't have the right number of marines in place, or were just out of position.
Considering that's standard and doing no damage at all doesn't slow them down one bit, is that fair?
Doing no damage does slow them down, compared to where they would be if they hadn't done an oracle expand. So yeah, doing no damage puts them in a worse position compared to a more normal expand into roboo, and the lack of observers is very difficult to play with.
I guess if you lose the oracle, but doesn't an oracle kind of make up for the fact that you don't need detection?
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
Well he did do it against some really good players. And the new patch should make Polt even better.
And I love this mythical world of accidental wins with Blink All-Ins. I can just see MC going "Woops" and holding his hand over his mouth.
I've seen players do builds like oracle expands and get "whoops" kills cause Terrans either didn't scout it in time, or didn't have the right number of marines in place, or were just out of position.
Considering that's standard and doing no damage at all doesn't slow them down one bit, is that fair?
Doing no damage does slow them down, compared to where they would be if they hadn't done an oracle expand. So yeah, doing no damage puts them in a worse position compared to a more normal expand into roboo, and the lack of observers is very difficult to play with.
I guess if you lose the oracle, but doesn't an oracle kind of make up for the fact that you don't need detection?
It's not about detection, it's about vision. You want to position observers around the map in key locations and you want it in the enemy base scouting as often as possible. The oracle can reveal the army which helps (and can see most of the base usually), but it can't see everything and it won't see as much as the observers will. Drops can and will still come at you that are not suffering a revelation. It is far more difficult to defend with an oracle or two for scouting compared to observers, but if you go into templar, you have to skip robo after an oracle opening (and oracle into colossus dies hardcore to scv pulls) or you won't have enough units to live. The oracle also requires much more multi-tasking to control and scout with, which makes doing other things more difficult. Many korean pros have difficulty making this style work: sOs seems the most successful with it.
The main advantage of the oracle opener is that you can play a little bit greedier at home for a short while because the terran has to play safer for a short while, making builds where you take a very fast third more viable. However, terrans in korea were already adding more mines into their builds, which punishes such play, and now the mine has been buffed, which makes it obliterate zealots. Terrans had already adapted reasonably well to this before the buff.
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
Well he did do it against some really good players. And the new patch should make Polt even better.
And I love this mythical world of accidental wins with Blink All-Ins. I can just see MC going "Woops" and holding his hand over his mouth.
I've seen players do builds like oracle expands and get "whoops" kills cause Terrans either didn't scout it in time, or didn't have the right number of marines in place, or were just out of position.
Considering that's standard and doing no damage at all doesn't slow them down one bit, is that fair?
Doing no damage does slow them down, compared to where they would be if they hadn't done an oracle expand. So yeah, doing no damage puts them in a worse position compared to a more normal expand into roboo, and the lack of observers is very difficult to play with.
I guess if you lose the oracle, but doesn't an oracle kind of make up for the fact that you don't need detection?
It's not about detection, it's about vision. You want to position observers around the map in key locations and you want it in the enemy base scouting as often as possible. The oracle can reveal the army which helps (and can see most of the base usually), but it can't see everything and it won't see as much as the observers will. Drops can and will still come at you that are not suffering a revelation. It is far more difficult to defend with an oracle or two for scouting compared to observers, but if you go into templar, you have to skip robo after an oracle opening (and oracle into colossus dies hardcore to scv pulls) or you won't have enough units to live. The oracle also requires much more multi-tasking to control and scout with, which makes doing other things more difficult. Many korean pros have difficulty making this style work: sOs seems the most successful with it.
The main advantage of the oracle opener is that you can play a little bit greedier at home for a short while because the terran has to play safer for a short while, making builds where you take a very fast third more viable. However, terrans in korea were already adding more mines into their builds, which punishes such play, and now the mine has been buffed, which makes it obliterate zealots. Terrans had already adapted reasonably well to this before the buff.
Honestly if you lose the oracle early game your doing something wrong. If you lose cause you messed up with the oracle control that's entirely your fault. There's no reason why you should ever lose your oracles to marines so I would say that going an oracle opening has little downside to it other than the delay of the robo. Just the vision of the oracle alone forces the terran to put up missile turrets/position marines causing the 11 min push to be delayed which makes up for the delayed robo and theres always the possibility you just straight up kill the terran. I would say the oracle isn't even a risk to go for due to it forcing so many responses from the terran.
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Protoss could play macro at end of WOL, and Protoss can play macro even better now, we see it any time Blink Stalker pressure fails and the Protoss easily transitions into zeal/HT/archon. Take any game from Polt vs. Classic series. It's not as though zeal/HT/archon would magically stop working if Terrans only had to build 2 Bunkers instead of 5 to hold off Blink pressure, or if a Protoss decided not to do any Blink pressure at all.
You obviously know how the game feels a lot better than I do, but I just don't remember Protoss struggling in macro games in any way except options, and nerfing PO doesn't get rid of any non-extreme options, all it does is attach consequences to them. You fail, you lose.
classics build isn't designed to win, its designed to pressure.
And you don't see how that in itself is a problem?
It's what Tastosis would call a "bop" build, except bops aren't supposed to be plannable! They're accidental! "Oops, you forgot to build any units at all by 10 minutes, I guess my pressure just kills you." That's how bops work. In the case of Blink pressure, it's more like "Oops, you didn't scout this perfectly, build the perfect number of Bunkers in the perfect locations, and micro perfectly, I guess my pressure just kills you."
That's not OK.
It's not like you can do a blink all in and then transition ezpz. He transitions before he even starts attacking. And polt won that series.
Well I guess if Polt can do it and wow the entire SC2 watching world by doing it, the game is balanced?
Well he did do it against some really good players. And the new patch should make Polt even better.
And I love this mythical world of accidental wins with Blink All-Ins. I can just see MC going "Woops" and holding his hand over his mouth.
I've seen players do builds like oracle expands and get "whoops" kills cause Terrans either didn't scout it in time, or didn't have the right number of marines in place, or were just out of position.
Considering that's standard and doing no damage at all doesn't slow them down one bit, is that fair?
Doing no damage does slow them down, compared to where they would be if they hadn't done an oracle expand. So yeah, doing no damage puts them in a worse position compared to a more normal expand into roboo, and the lack of observers is very difficult to play with.
I guess if you lose the oracle, but doesn't an oracle kind of make up for the fact that you don't need detection?
It's not about detection, it's about vision. You want to position observers around the map in key locations and you want it in the enemy base scouting as often as possible. The oracle can reveal the army which helps (and can see most of the base usually), but it can't see everything and it won't see as much as the observers will. Drops can and will still come at you that are not suffering a revelation. It is far more difficult to defend with an oracle or two for scouting compared to observers, but if you go into templar, you have to skip robo after an oracle opening (and oracle into colossus dies hardcore to scv pulls) or you won't have enough units to live. The oracle also requires much more multi-tasking to control and scout with, which makes doing other things more difficult. Many korean pros have difficulty making this style work: sOs seems the most successful with it.
The main advantage of the oracle opener is that you can play a little bit greedier at home for a short while because the terran has to play safer for a short while, making builds where you take a very fast third more viable. However, terrans in korea were already adding more mines into their builds, which punishes such play, and now the mine has been buffed, which makes it obliterate zealots. Terrans had already adapted reasonably well to this before the buff.
For vision on drops, it depends on the map. In maps with lots of air space on the drop paths, oracles on patrol can spot drops just fine and they can actually cover more area. The down side is that the terran will see your oracles and take a different path where as with obs, the terrans will likely continue to drop.
But oracles also denies vision much better in TvP. For protoss that want to take early thirds, the oracle can be used to deny the marine or SCV scout forcing the terran to scan or move out with a sizeable army.
On March 04 2014 07:38 DinoMight wrote: I mean, you can Stim Marines AND Marauders at the same time and when you do, all your medivacs immediately start healing them and following them around. What's the justification for that? Get my drift?
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed. The inverse is true for terran.
It fascinates me that after 3 years it's the same 2-3 posters insisting that P army control requires the same mechanical ability. The fact is that a balanced game is HARD to design. Balance in every dimension is HARD. Almost every game, including most competitive ones, has massive glaring imbalances. Fighting games, have top tier characters with significant advantages. Different characters have significant advantages against others. Or take WC3, with 4 races. There were significantly broken matchups, such as Orc vs UD. Of course some of you probably would claim that Orc requires the same amount of skill as UD in that matchup.
It would be incredible if somehow the three races in SC were perfectly balanced in every dimension. That's certainly the goal, but it's obviously not the reality, and very unlikely to be the reality. Is it probably true that strategically the races are decently balanced? That given a decision tree, both players have reasonable reactions to understand and take? Yea I would say that's probably true, both players need to have the same understanding of the game. But it's a joke to claim that mechanically P is equivalent to T. It isn't. It hasn't been since SC1.
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed.
I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them.
If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority.
Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways.
Every race has infinite micro potential in battle, the question is rather:
1. How strong is the army without micro? 2. How strong is the army with micro?
I think that for terran #1 is lower than protoss, and that when you add #2 terran has nearly caught up. This makes micro more important for terran and creates the perception that terran takes more skill.
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed.
I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them.
If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority.
Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways.
I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed.
I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them.
If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority.
Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways.
I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
I think that P skill ceilling is high, with blink, force fields, phoenyx and warp prism you can do a lot of awesome plays with micro... But we have to admit that P is really really really easy to use, W+hotkey and PAM! you have your gateway army ready then A+forward to victory (low leagues ofc), even land your storms is easy.
But I don´t know how balance can change that aspect of P playstyle.
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed.
I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them.
If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority.
Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways.
I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
The protoss players are right about this. Regardless of whether something is true or not doesnt mean it isnt toxic for the community especially at this point. Kinda like how protoss all ins are easier to roll terrans and we all roll up our sleeves and crusade for buffs or nerfs to even complete redesign to fix the problem?
I demand my fellow terrans shut the fuck up about protoss having no mirco and being easier because its becoming a huge problem that only serves in a counterproductive manner.
The myth that Protoss units don't need to be microed is one of the most hilarious things I read on this forum. From reading the comments here it sounds like all you have to do is turtle behind a mothership core until you have storm and Colossus and then literally press F2, A on the opposite corner of the map, grab some pop-corn sit back and relax while you win.
The fact is that there are many aspect of Protoss micro that Terrans don't understand:
1) By the 4 minute mark we already have 6 spells to keep track of. By the end of the game in a standard PvT it's up to 9 spells/abilities (and that's just on the most commonly used units). Compare that to Stim, cloak, EMP, and scan (4).
2) We have Zealots (melee range), Archons (3), Stalker/Immortal (6), and Colossus (9). Just getting them to stand in the right order facing the Terran army and not get in each others way requires micro.
3) We also have vastly different move speeds, from Stalkers who are fairly fast to Templar.. basically the slowest units besides queens off creep. Just getting our army to move from point A to point B requires micro, unless you want your HT to lag behind in a clumped group..
If you 1A at a Terran army, here's what happens:
Zealots attack the bio ball, which kites them back. Bio/Chargelots move faster than the Colossus.. so the Colossus can't keep up and end up shooting at nothing while getting hit by Vikings. Templar lag behind in a nice little bunch and get EMPd. After EMP on HT goes down and Colossus are dead, Terran actually boxes their units, presses T, and 1As in the opposite direction.
So what you actually need to do as a protoss is:
-Pull Zealots back whenever they get too far ahead -Focus fire the Stalkers on the Vikings but keep them somewhat back so they do't die to bio -Make sure your Colossus are actually shooting at things instead of walking around doing nothing -Spread out your Templar and try to feedback ghosts, get good storms in
In addition, you need to be aware of where all your observers are and pull them back whenever Terran scans. A couple of cloaked ghosts landing crucial EMPs can ruin your day.
Protoss "micro" is hard to identify, but it's certainly there. Just getting your units to do what they're supposed to do is tricky. Maybe right click, H, right click, H, right click H is more sexy.. but there is no denying that a Protoss army requires a significant amount of micro against anyone who knows what they're doing.
EDIT - And I play Terran too. I find myself struggling in the early game dealing with allins because I haven't really learned to defend them. But after that it's pretty straightforward. Scan, kill obs, right click the colossus with your vikings. If you can get good EMPs you flat out win.
Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss.
Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1
On March 05 2014 00:16 DinoMight wrote: The myth that Protoss units don't need to be microed is one of the most hilarious things I read on this forum. From reading the comments here it sounds like all you have to do is turtle behind a mothership core until you have storm and Colossus and then literally press F2, A on the opposite corner of the map, grab some pop-corn sit back and relax while you win.
2) We have Zealots (melee range), Archons (3), Stalker/Immortal (6), and Colossus (9). Just getting them to stand in the right order facing the Terran army and not get in each others way requires micro.
EDIT - And I play Terran too. I find myself struggling in the early game dealing with allins because I haven't really learned to defend them. But after that it's pretty straightforward. Scan, kill obs, right click the colossus with your vikings. If you can get good EMPs you flat out win.
So you are a Protoss player who concider placing Zealots infront of your Immortals as difficult, but when you play Terran as long as you survive the allins you have no problems at all to massacre a tier3 Protoss Army? Sounds like you either are talking a lot of BS or suffer from a Schizoaffective disorder (and please dont take it all to seriously)
Its like you tell how life is on Mars when you spent your whole life on Venus.
Come on, we have seen the best Terrans in the world struggle in Lategame TvP 200/200 fully upgrades fights since the release of WoL. Its not like a super secret Protoss is very strong when they get there. And I dont think anyone mind. The problem being is that Protoss now gets there extremly fast and the window where Terran used to be extremly strong (the midgame, 9-15 minutes) is shortned extremly. Sometimes to just a few seconds, sometimes the window just does not excist depending on how the openings collides.
On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote: @DinoMight
Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss.
Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1
Try to achieve this with the other races
You can just be like bad habit and get to GM by 6 pooling in every match up.
The argument that the game is imbalanced at "my skill level" is just a balance whine with alittle spin on it. It's still whining the game is unfair for you, but not for people that are better then you.
On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote: @DinoMight
Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss.
Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1
Try to achieve this with the other races
Most of the people's assumption that Protoss doesnt require micro is because most ppl here are mostly diamond and below, where Protoss can just a move. However, they dont see the highest level of Protoss play require as much micro as Terran. Dinomight outlines most of the points.
Moving zealot in front of immortals can be very easy but doing all those things at once while macroing and warping in haress etc aint a walk in the park.
There is no denying protoss is easy race at low levels.
1) By the 4 minute mark we already have 6 spells to keep track of. By the end of the game in a standard PvT it's up to 9 spells/abilities (and that's just on the most commonly used units). Compare that to Stim, cloak, EMP, and scan (4).
Please. By 4 minuts your MSC is barely out and it has no energy to cast any spell. Even if you make a Sentry as one of your first units—yes, at some point you will be able, if you want, to cast one of the 6 spells your Sentry + MSC have; but so what? Is Orbital macro management hard by 3'30 because we have the choice between MULE, Scan and Supply Call? Not at all. You call your MULE and that's that. Just because you have numerous possibilities doesn't mean there is difficulty. You actually don't have any decision to do with your spells until the first Terran poke or your Hallucination scout. Your "6 spells to keep track of" is completely routinized in optimal uses.
I have no idea why you're talking about 9 spells/abilities in lategame TvP. There are usually 3, Blink, Feedback, Storm and possibly a fourth with Time Warp if the MSC is there (and even then it's frequently cast before the battle). There are usually no Sentries left in lategame TvP.
At any rate, counting spells/abilities in each side tells absolutely nothing about the difficulty to handle each side. Stimming, for instance, is an active ability but it's trivial. There is no difficulty in doing the "stim" action. EMP and Storm are both AoE targetable spells with the same radius, yet the difficulty isn't the same because the stakes are not the same, the amount of tasks required meanwhile isn't the same and the respective spellcasters don't have the same opposition (= adverse units preventing them from casting their spells).
2) We have Zealots (melee range), Archons (3), Stalker/Immortal (6), and Colossus (9). Just getting them to stand in the right order facing the Terran army and not get in each others way requires micro.
Pre-positioning isn't as hard as microing in battle, especially with the stupid rhythm of SC2 battles which end in a matter of seconds. And even if your pre-positioning isn't perfect, you still have help from your units: Colossi hover over the other units, which means they can only get in the way between themselves, and Blink allows you to immediately reposition your Stalkers if they're not where they should be. Charge also makes sure your Zealots will always be in front.
3) We also have vastly different move speeds, from Stalkers who are fairly fast to Templar.. basically the slowest units besides queens off creep. Just getting our army to move from point A to point B requires micro, unless you want your HT to lag behind in a clumped group..
Actually, outside of Templars, the speed at which Protoss units move is fairly homogeneous: Colossi 2.25, Zealots with Charge 2.75, Archons 2.81, Stalkers 2.95. For Templars, you wait them and that's all; or you put them in a Prism if you want to keep up with your army. Splitting them is another action independent of their slow speed (the clumping is not caused by their movement speed).
So what you actually need to do as a protoss is:
-Pull Zealots back whenever they get too far ahead -Focus fire the Stalkers on the Vikings but keep them somewhat back so they do't die to bio -Make sure your Colossus are actually shooting at things instead of walking around doing nothing -Spread out your Templar and try to feedback ghosts, get good storms in
Pulling back troops (Zealots or not) is a simple right click. Blink allows Stalkers to auto-position themselves in range of the Vikings; and depending on the amount of Stalkers you have, you're better not focusing fire (because of overkill issues; plus if the bio is moving away from Zealots, Vikings are the only targets left; focus fire is only mandatory if the Stalkers may choose other targets). Colossi, like Archons and Zealots (i. e. 80% of your units), are a-click units; there is no in-battle micro to do with them as long as their attack move allows them to follow the course of the fight. Templar micro is the only difficult part, but thankfully the rest is automated or semi-automated so you can completely focus on that. Check the point of view of any top Korean Protoss on available PvT replays and you will see that: they focus mainly on Templars (Storms), secondary on Stalkers, and the rest (Zealots, Archons, Colossi, possibly Immortals and/or Tempests) is on autopilot; they only control those units for retreating purposes, because what in-battle micro would they do with them anyway?
EDIT - And I play Terran too. I find myself struggling in the early game dealing with allins because I haven't really learned to defend them. But after that it's pretty straightforward. Scan, kill obs, right click the colossus with your vikings.
Have fun sniping Observers when they follow Colossi.
On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote: @DinoMight
Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss.
Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1
Try to achieve this with the other races
You can just be like bad habit and get to GM by 6 pooling in every match up.
The argument that the game is imbalanced at "my skill level" is just a balance whine with alittle spin on it. It's still whining the game is unfair for you, but not for people that are better then you.
There are many roads to GM.
Gaulzi cannon rushed his way to high Masters and was beating GMs pretty regulary. Another guy 6 pooled (like Plansix said) to GM.
"The game is imba at my level" does not mean the game is imba. It means you need to up your level and practice more.
And I have a few Diamond Terran friends who can absolutely PUNISH a Protoss for not microing. It's not a Masters+ thing only. Hell, even I can offrace on my main account and beat Protoss players of my MMR if they don't micro.
On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote: @DinoMight
Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss.
Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1
Try to achieve this with the other races
Hahaha what an awesome post, "hakuna matata mode" xDDD I can tell you that 60 APM A+forward terran army doesn´t work, medibacks tends to arrive before the main army :D.
@DinoMight I think you are missundertanding "keep track of" and "avaible". At min 4 mark you only need to keep track of chronoboost while you know that you have other 3 spells avaible for puntual situations. At that time, T and Z have their own spell to macro and to "keep track of".
Anyways, even at high levels, P needs less micro than the other races (and I mean a bit less, no "0" micror A+move), kepp in mind that a T and Z army can dissapear in a cople of seconds in a storm or a HSM.
TheDwf is going to tell you what is up and that his race is harder. Because that's not a subjective at all, what people find difficult about a game.
I love these discussions so much. It's like compairing which role is harder in dota 2 or league. Or objective trying to determine which position is harder in hockey, goalie or a forward.
The point is that there are many things you need to do as a Protoss players. Sure, Terrans may micro their bio more intensely than Protoss does any ONE unit, but as a whole there is a lot of micro going on for both players.
Honestly I don't think that right click H right click H right click H is that hard... the hardest part of the engagement is landing good EMPs and getting your Vikings to attack from a good angle. So those are the two things to focus on. For Protoss, the most important two things are getting the Storms/Feedbacks in and making sure the Colossus aren't just getting shot at from dead airspace and not attacking. The other stuff is pretty routine for both sides.
So many people stress the importance of the stutter step but honestly if you negate Protoss's AoE the engagement becomes really easy...
On March 05 2014 01:19 VieuxSinge wrote: @DinoMight
Everything you describe might be true but is not needed until master league as protoss, hence why so much people resent protoss.
Hell, a player succeded to reach top diamond/low master within a month as protoss by playing "hakuna matata mode", meaning 0 micro, only A+move everygame. Here is the link : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11042804470#1
Try to achieve this with the other races
I hit high Diamond with Zerg in Wings of Liberty doing exactly that. I probably could do it with Zerg in HOTS too. It isn't that hard. Heck, in WOL I did it with only roaches in PvZ and roach/ling/bane all-in in ZvT. ZvZ I just speedling all-inned. You can get to high Diamond easily just massing units with Zerg (or really any race) as long as your spend your money right and keep up with macro. If your opponent's macro is bad, it doesn't matter what race you play because you will simply have more stuff than them. That's why most people who can hit high Master with one race can usually hit Master with another fairly quickly. Being able to spend your resources is a universal skill that applies to all races and once you have it down you can usually do well with any race. It's why back in the day (I'm sure he still does) Day9 always emphasized spending your money over everything else.
The point is that there are many things you need to do as a Protoss players. Sure, Terrans may micro their bio more intensely than Protoss does any ONE unit, but as a whole there is a lot of micro going on for both players.
Honestly I don't think that right click H right click H right click H is that hard... the hardest part of the engagement is landing good EMPs and getting your Vikings to attack from a good angle. So those are the two things to focus on. For Protoss, the most important two things are getting the Storms/Feedbacks in and making sure the Colossus aren't just getting shot at from dead airspace and not attacking. The other stuff is pretty routine for both sides.
So many people stress the importance of the stutter step but honestly if you negate Protoss's AoE the engagement becomes really easy...
Hit & run is not hard per se, but what makes Terran micro difficult with bio/Ghosts/Vikings engagements is that there are other mandatory tasks to perform meanwhile; plus Terran units follow the "glass cannon" model, so you're punished harder for mistakes with fragile units than with beefy ones.
Yes, you can sometimes comfortably a-click if Protoss has no more Storms, but that happens very rarely at high level since Protoss, aware of this, always have Templars in the back waiting for you to push too eagerly to land that money Storm.
As a top 16 GM terran and top 50 GM toss player, I feel that protoss overall is a lot easier to play but terran has a higher skill ceiling for example, if two players practice an hour a day, one being terran and one being toss, the toss would win. It is like this until you get to about 6-8 hours a day, then they will trade games often (assuming they started at even skill and intelligence). Terran is just way harder to play mechanically and even at times more difficult strategically unless you have godlike mechanics and micro which only come with large amounts of practice. At the end point it is relativiely balanced now (top korean level). This is why we dont see any foreign terrans win anything as almost every single one does not have the time/dedication to reach godlike mechanics that are required to win at the highest level of play. With protoss (and zerg to some extent) you essentially just learn how to scout and execute a strategy and will quickly rise and skill, but after that practice is less efficent as there are less things to do, unlike terran.
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Uhh, yeah, obviously. Zealots and stalkers without blink are boring and basic units. Warpgate rushes that used sentries were somewhat interesting, but often too early in the game to be very complex. The variety of ways you deal with blink/dt/oracle are much more interesting than dealing with a warpgate rush. And the variety of ways the protoss player controls blink/dt/oracle and executes the builds are much more interesting as well. Clearly we see the game very very differently if you don't think having the option between 3+ builds all involving very different units is better than doing the same rush over and over again with the same basic units. I can't even fathom why you'd have to ask or even consider if making things simpler and more predictable in every way possible is better for a strategy game.
On March 03 2014 19:54 Grumbels wrote: It seems a bit odd that mine splash is higher on protoss units than the friendly fire is on terran units.
how is that odd?
what is odd is that the collosus does no friendly splash damage.
That's because the Colossus is in the motherfucking SKY. Like this is a towering...Colossus...He's so far up there he can shoot down at an angle that directly hits enemy units, and slices left to right. I mean... the Colossus is so large that... well units that attack only AIR can hit it.
Edit: http://i3.minus.com/i1ws3QTL9uP81.jpg Hypothetical Source. It's a GAME... it can make sense in the physical world or you're meta balance world...
To help protoss engage vs swarmhosts... how about make SW visible even while burrowed? I don't really see why not and I haven't seen anyone talk about this earlier.
How about having the same SH as in the campaign? Rooted instead of burrowed? They are visible and the zerg army can't move on top of them. Couldn't that solve a part of the problem?
On March 05 2014 03:52 aZealot wrote: Good god, 4 years after release and people are still having this fucking discussion. -_-
Seems to get under the skin of protoss players?
Meh, I couldn't give a shit, either way. If some Terrans want to indulge a martyr complex everytime they find match, go for gold is how I see it. I do wish, though, that some Protoss players didn't feel the need to stoke the mania. It's a waste of time.
I can't believe that there are people claiming the "protoss no micro race" card here. Why TL can't be better than Twitch chat and BL.net forums anymore?
On March 05 2014 03:52 aZealot wrote: Good god, 4 years after release and people are still having this fucking discussion. -_-
Seems to get under the skin of protoss players?
Meh, I couldn't give a shit, either way. If some Terrans want to indulge a martyr complex everytime they find match, go for gold is how I see it. I do wish, though, that some Protoss players didn't feel the need to stoke the mania. It's a waste of time.
Yeah clearly you do not care.
The attempted jab towards terran players comes from not caring.
On March 05 2014 06:49 Tiaraju9 wrote: I can't believe that there are people claiming the "protoss no micro race" card here. Why TL can't be better than Twitch chat and BL.net forums anymore?
no one believes that protoss is a "no" micro race. some people here just think that the mechanical requirements that it takes to control a protoss army is easier
On March 05 2014 06:49 Tiaraju9 wrote: I can't believe that there are people claiming the "protoss no micro race" card here. Why TL can't be better than Twitch chat and BL.net forums anymore?
I don't think you're remembering TL about 5-6 years ago. It was the same shit in BW, nothings changed but slowly but surely all those people whining all the time do or say something stupid and get themselves banned. They then get replaced by someone else.
On March 05 2014 03:52 aZealot wrote: Good god, 4 years after release and people are still having this fucking discussion. -_-
Seems to get under the skin of protoss players?
Meh, I couldn't give a shit, either way. If some Terrans want to indulge a martyr complex everytime they find match, go for gold is how I see it. I do wish, though, that some Protoss players didn't feel the need to stoke the mania. It's a waste of time.
Yeah clearly you do not care.
The attempted jab towards terran players comes from not caring.
Oh no, I said some Terran players (that includes you by the way). Most Terran just get on with it (as do most Protoss).
But, as to the debate, I could not give a shit. Knock yourself out, unappreciated hero.
Completely irrelevant to this discussion, but I just wanted to say that my several long months of being terrible and not really knowing what I'm doing my transition from Masters WoL Z to (?) HotS meching Terran has been an absolute blast. I have yet to use the new widow mines vP (still trying to figure out what kind of vP style/composition I want to play), but god is it fun having the big boom army of static death.
Well I like the new patch. Not getting rekt by a-moved zealots as much when I have mines. And now they dont have storm by the time I get a pair of medevacs to their base, because they are afraid of said mines. I feel like it could shift the meta in interesting ways.
Now watching tvp wont be as much as a cringefest either.
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed.
I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them.
If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority.
Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways.
I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
On March 05 2014 03:52 aZealot wrote: Good god, 4 years after release and people are still having this fucking discussion. -_-
Seems to get under the skin of protoss players?
Meh, I couldn't give a shit, either way. If some Terrans want to indulge a martyr complex everytime they find match, go for gold is how I see it. I do wish, though, that some Protoss players didn't feel the need to stoke the mania. It's a waste of time.
Yeah clearly you do not care.
The attempted jab towards terran players comes from not caring.
Oh no, I said some Terran players (that includes you by the way). Most Terran just get on with it (as do most Protoss).
But, as to the debate, I could not give a shit. Knock yourself out, unappreciated hero.
You know what would show that you do not give a shit? To stop posting about it.
Instead you always enter these discussions pretending to be above it all and then potshots at the side you dont like. Its getting pretty fucking obnoxious and you really are not fooling anyone, except maybe yourself?
On March 04 2014 11:08 NonY wrote: Slowing down the speed at which protoss can tech (by making photon overcharge worthless) won't improve the game. Everyone (including most protosses) hated when the best protoss builds were warpgate rushes, whether defensive or offensive.
And Blink/DT/Oracle rushes are better...?
Uhh, yeah, obviously. Zealots and stalkers without blink are boring and basic units. Warpgate rushes that used sentries were somewhat interesting, but often too early in the game to be very complex. The variety of ways you deal with blink/dt/oracle are much more interesting than dealing with a warpgate rush. And the variety of ways the protoss player controls blink/dt/oracle and executes the builds are much more interesting as well. Clearly we see the game very very differently if you don't think having the option between 3+ builds all involving very different units is better than doing the same rush over and over again with the same basic units. I can't even fathom why you'd have to ask or even consider if making things simpler and more predictable in every way possible is better for a strategy game.
I don't think that Protoss having versatility is bad at all, and I love Blink Stalkers, except right now Blink Stalkers shut down all Terran creativity until 10+ minutes into a match, so while Protoss has gotten more interesting, Terran has gotten less interesting. There's no net gain. The MU hasn't improved.
But this conversation started because you said nerfing PO in PvT would destroy Protoss versatility, and I just don't see why that's true. It would kill some extreme builds that have no right to exist, like proxy Oracle (which should be just as viable as proxy Banshee -- aka textbook "all in" and not a macro opening!!!) and allow Terrans to punish pressure builds that fail to do damage, but how in the world would it prevent Blink Stalker pressure from being a potential threat, or teching straight into Archives for HT over Colo?
On March 05 2014 03:52 aZealot wrote: Good god, 4 years after release and people are still having this fucking discussion. -_-
Seems to get under the skin of protoss players?
Maybe, but nothing gets under a Terran's skin like suggesting that they don't play the mechanically hardest race.
Must be nice to argue strawmen all the time.
HOTS TvZ Zerg was just as mechanically challenging as Terran before WMs got nerfed.
Step 1. Watch Innovation vs. DRG.
Step 2. Give me a single series where a Protoss player has to multitask (micro, macro, and out-maneuver the enemy all at the same time) as frequently and efficiently over the course of 3 20+ minute games.
Step 3. Realize that the multitasking required in Innovation vs. DRG was spectacular when it happened, but then became the norm for the MU.
And before you point me to any given series Polt played, I want you to sit and think, for a minute, about how much attention a Zerg had to pay to his army when WM still had large splash. Lings, Banes, Mutas, the three core units of the standard Zerg composition, required CONSTANT supervision. In the case of Banes, if they were not babysat, they could all die to one widow mine or just do zero damage against split Marines. In the case of Mutas, sure, they don't take more micro to use than Phoenixes (one of the most microable Protoss units), but the difference is Classic makes 5 Phoenixes in one game out of 5, whereas you're liable to see 20-40 Mutas in any single game of TvZ. What takes more multitasking, 5 units over 5 minutes or 20-40 over 15? In one game or in every single game? It's just math.
FWIW, Rain's multitasking against Polt was very impressive, and I'm sure that if Protoss units had higher skill ceilings, he would be first in line to take advantage of them. I don't for a second think that all Protoss players are mechanically weaker -- but those that are can get free rides, and those that aren't don't get to impress us to the degree that they should.
I'm genuinely curious as to how many drawing parallels between racial difficulty (in pure mechanics) actually play both of the sides that they're talking about.
In my case Terran just feels a hell of a lot harder mechanically, whereas with Protoss there's a frustration to be had in the lack of microability of base units that Terran bio has and the need to rely on AoE and spells to equalise that, the good use of which is a skill in itself. Protoss has periods where you can really multitask and rely on mechanics but it doesn't seem to scale across the whole game as much which is disappointing for those who like that kind of thing. For example doing a Phoenix opener in PvZ, harassing perhaps with Zealots while macroing is a period of the game where mechanically sound players are clearly better in, but you can't keep playing like that for a whole game.
I don't understand this 'don't complain' attitude either as long as you're not a prick about it
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed.
I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them.
If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority.
Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways.
I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
then you haven't watched Parting...
Oh, yes i have. He uses good forcefields with good blink. Iam not impressed.
When i see a good terran use his great micro/multitasking iam impressed. When i saw stephano attack a protoss with his roaches with good flank/position i was impressed
Or when i saw life use his zerglings, i was impressed. Protoss just does not have that special thing as a race, and therefore iam not impressed. When dear played - I was impressed by something, cant remember exactly what - Maybe his positioning. Which doesnt even happen in combat- just pre combat.
The justification is that 70% of protoss's army food (zeal, archon, colo) does not need to be microed.
I'm constantly amused by this myth that Protoss units do not benefit from microing them.
If you don't micro your Archons as battle is joined to created attack paths then you tend to end up blocking your Zealots and screwing yourself quite badly. If you don't micro your Colossi you lose a lot of efficiency and take massive unnecessary splash damage in PvP laser wars. Ideally you want to micro your Zealots too; but at this point you're looking at at least 4-6 different units needing different types of micro simultaneously whilst also controlling the overall engagement, so its not really feasible. At that point controlling your blob of mineral-only units (even if they're very EXPENSIVE mineral-only units) just isn't a priority.
Stop trying to make grandiose claims on how units are microd unless you actually have some evidence. And stop trying to apply Terran army control philosophy to a Protoss army, they get microd in totally different ways.
I think when people say "protoss requires no micro" its degree wise, not literally. In general it doesnt take much micro for protoss. The skill ceiling aint very high/or fun to watch or play. THAT is the core problem
then you haven't watched Parting...
Oh, yes i have. He uses good forcefields with good blink. Iam not impressed.
When i see a good terran use his great micro/multitasking iam impressed. When i saw stephano attack a protoss with his roaches with good flank/position i was impressed
Or when i saw life use his zerglings, i was impressed. Protoss just does not have that special thing as a race, and therefore iam not impressed. When dear played - I was impressed by something, cant remember exactly what - Maybe his positioning. Which doesnt even happen in combat- just pre combat.
If you are not impressed by Parting's play then really, there is no point debating with you. Even the most diehard, biased Terran players are impressed by Parting. He is God.
Parting's micro extends past just good FF and blink usage. The way he positions his army. The way he hits like 5 different spells perfectly at the same time. The way he picks up hurt units with his warp prism and drops them off in the back while continue to micro the battle.... how he flanks Terran armies with storm drops...
He's ridiculous. If you can't appreciate that then you know nothing about StarCraft...
As a random player I've faced the new mines once as Toss. They helped the T out with early D, effectively doubling the splash damage. Wasn't game changing in this case, but I can see it making a difference in a higher level game.
Widow mines are a pretty big buff vs. P. Still not quite sure where/when to work them into my composition, though. Chargelots just drag them onto the main army, and if you keep them far enough away to avoid that the rest of the army can just pick them off unharrassed.
Meching vs. P definitely feels... strange. No composition/strategy really feels stable to me thus far. Been considering a tank-heavy style where I add 2 tech lab raxes for ghosts instead of 2-3 factories when I take my third, but I haven't gotten much of a chance to put that plan into action, yet.
On March 06 2014 12:10 RampancyTW wrote: Widow mines are a pretty big buff vs. P. Still not quite sure where/when to work them into my composition, though. Chargelots just drag them onto the main army, and if you keep them far enough away to avoid that the rest of the army can just pick them off unharrassed.
Meching vs. P definitely feels... strange. No composition/strategy really feels stable to me thus far. Been considering a tank-heavy style where I add 2 tech lab raxes for ghosts instead of 2-3 factories when I take my third, but I haven't gotten much of a chance to put that plan into action, yet.
put mines down -> attack protoss charglot archon army -> stim away -> widow mines kill all zealots -> fight archon army. It is no longer a charglot archon army :D!
On March 06 2014 12:10 RampancyTW wrote: Widow mines are a pretty big buff vs. P. Still not quite sure where/when to work them into my composition, though. Chargelots just drag them onto the main army, and if you keep them far enough away to avoid that the rest of the army can just pick them off unharrassed.
Meching vs. P definitely feels... strange. No composition/strategy really feels stable to me thus far. Been considering a tank-heavy style where I add 2 tech lab raxes for ghosts instead of 2-3 factories when I take my third, but I haven't gotten much of a chance to put that plan into action, yet.
put mines down -> attack protoss charglot archon army -> stim away -> widow mines kill all zealots -> fight archon army. It is no longer a charglot archon army :D!
It isn't as simple as that. A lot of the times, mines will target the zealot that is charging and won't really splash the other zealots. But yeah, they work great if they hit a big clump of zealots. They are nice to have in the early game. But I haven't really seen any game changing hits at the pro level. But the change is quite new so it will probably take some time for players to figure out where to place the mines and how to bait the zealots in for max effectiveness.
But they are very good at stopping zealot runbys because the zealots are usually not charging and in a group. The splash weakens the zealot enough that 3-4 rines/marauders can finish them off.
Still feel that the mine buff didn't really address the real problems with TvP which is still the versatility in Protoss openings. Though I feel that the new mines do help against chargelot archon pretty significantly.
On March 06 2014 12:10 RampancyTW wrote: Widow mines are a pretty big buff vs. P. Still not quite sure where/when to work them into my composition, though. Chargelots just drag them onto the main army, and if you keep them far enough away to avoid that the rest of the army can just pick them off unharrassed.
Meching vs. P definitely feels... strange. No composition/strategy really feels stable to me thus far. Been considering a tank-heavy style where I add 2 tech lab raxes for ghosts instead of 2-3 factories when I take my third, but I haven't gotten much of a chance to put that plan into action, yet.
put mines down -> attack protoss charglot archon army -> stim away -> widow mines kill all zealots -> fight archon army. It is no longer a charglot archon army :D!
they splash on your bio units which has been a huge problem. It's a great buff though, I use it a lot and sometimes overmake mines.
On March 06 2014 12:41 -HuShang- wrote: put mines down -> attack protoss charglot archon army -> stim away -> widow mines kill all zealots -> fight archon army. It is no longer a charglot archon army :D!
I could just imagine this working, if you burrow the mines so far behind your Bio that they can't reach the frontline yet. Let the Zealots have their initial charge on you and then stim back over the minefield, while charge is on cooldown. This is quite hard to pull off though.
On March 06 2014 13:13 Moonerz wrote: Still feel that the mine buff didn't really address the real problems with TvP which is still the versatility in Protoss openings. Though I feel that the new mines do help against chargelot archon pretty significantly.
The mine buff makes widow mine drops scarier, which means that it's more important for Protoss to account for them. This indirectly limits the builds Protoss can do because it's harder to scout the Terran (MsC nerf) and because our builds need to account for widow mine drops more than they did before (since there's more potential damage).
Blink allin has been nerfed pretty hard too.
I'd say Protoss definitely has less flexibility in their opening than they did before the last 2 patches. But it will take some time to see if Terrans can figure out a way to use their new tools. My guess is they will! Terrans always find a way to dominate while still being whiny as all hell =)
Yeah no, blink all-in hasn't been nerfed pretty hard. The only thing that changed is that a blink in the terran base is now less safe than before, yet they are never fatal for the protoss player (and still stronger than WoL's blink all-in).
However the new Wm could help defending blink all-in, but we have seen nothing about this at pro level yet.
From code S group B games we've seen bio-mine being strong in the midgame thus terran being even stronger than before in the midgame, and protoss having to build early canons in his mineral line, delaying his third expo timing.
This seems all good, the only thing left to see is if WM will permit to defend blink all-ins more easily
On March 06 2014 12:10 RampancyTW wrote: Widow mines are a pretty big buff vs. P. Still not quite sure where/when to work them into my composition, though. Chargelots just drag them onto the main army, and if you keep them far enough away to avoid that the rest of the army can just pick them off unharrassed.
Meching vs. P definitely feels... strange. No composition/strategy really feels stable to me thus far. Been considering a tank-heavy style where I add 2 tech lab raxes for ghosts instead of 2-3 factories when I take my third, but I haven't gotten much of a chance to put that plan into action, yet.
put mines down -> attack protoss charglot archon army -> stim away -> widow mines kill all zealots -> fight archon army. It is no longer a charglot archon army :D!
they splash on your bio units which has been a huge problem. It's a great buff though, I use it a lot and sometimes overmake mines.
Well everything needs its downsides. Mine and mothership core changes were huge, as said above, will def take some time to get used to this
On March 07 2014 00:57 VieuxSinge wrote: Yeah no, blink all-in hasn't been nerfed pretty hard. The only thing that changed is that a blink in the terran base is now less safe than before
THIS IS A REALLY BIG CHANGE!
The knock on the blink-allin was that it wasn't all-in enough. You could scout if the Terran was preparing to defend it and then just NOT make the Stalkers and go to Storm while continuing to fake the allin. Now with the reduced MsC vision (and it's very reduced) it's much harder to judge how prepared your opponent is. So it becomes way more commital. A failed commital Blink allin is 99.9% GG.
On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote: That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing.
Sigh, this is what I was just explaining.
Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in.
The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places.
The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know.
It needed changing, I like that they didn't go through with the blink cooldown nerf, the MSC sight range nerf had been requested for ages as the biggest change needed, as Dino alludes to it was the ability to see how T defenses were and choose to commit or not, while the Terran has to prep to hold the allin variant that was an issue.
The WM change looks interesting too, biomine forces different ways of engaging from both sides potentially so I like the possibilities there.
On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote: That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing.
Sigh, this is what I was just explaining.
Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in.
The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places.
The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know.
The Blink Allin has been nerfed.
The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build.
The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit.
All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want.
Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers.
Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap.
This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build..
On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote: That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing.
Sigh, this is what I was just explaining.
Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in.
The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places.
The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know.
The Blink Allin has been nerfed.
The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build.
The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit.
All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want.
Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers.
Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap.
This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build..
One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build.
I thought they said they would line up the patches with the conclusion of their WCS seasons. Do they not get that it's really bad to make a balance patch change right in the middle of your premiere tournament?
On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote: That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing.
Sigh, this is what I was just explaining.
Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in.
The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places.
The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know.
The Blink Allin has been nerfed.
The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build.
The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit.
All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want.
Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers.
Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap.
This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build..
One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build.
And so can dt and 25other units
Zest vs maru game1. Toss ahead, without "doing anything". The winner is irrelevant. You dont see this as a problem?
On March 07 2014 11:03 DinoMight wrote: One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build.
That depends on what the standard build would be. Is there one in PvT? Which one (just curious)?
As long as the deviation includes either a Robo (Observer), a Stargate (Oracle) or a Forge (Cannons), Protoss is fine. I think there's quite much just 1 common build that doesn't include them, which would be a 1-base Blink Stalker + MSC push.
The Terran side of things looks a bit different. Usually a Terran does not build something to detect in the earlygame, if he doesn't scout a reason for it. That kinda includes scans in the way that the Terran will not safe a scan, if he thinks he doesn't need it. This goes even so far that a Terran may lose to a push that doesn't require detection to hold (e.g. 4G Blink Stalker + MSC push), because he "wasted" resources on building detection blindly.
And then there's the dps part. Compare the dps of a Banshee to that of a DT. A Cloakshee in the Protoss' mineral line is hardly ever game ending. A DT in the Terran's quite often is. With Banshees there's also the option for Protoss to run the Probes away and come back, when Cloak ran out. With DTs that's not possible... not even talking about the speed of a DT here.
On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote: That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing.
Sigh, this is what I was just explaining.
Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in.
The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places.
The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know.
The Blink Allin has been nerfed.
The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build.
The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit.
All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want.
Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers.
Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap.
This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build..
One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build.
Please compare how many banshee-wins we've seen in pro-level TvP with how many blink-stalker wins we've seen in pro-level PvT in the past six months.
On March 07 2014 00:57 VieuxSinge wrote: Yeah no, blink all-in hasn't been nerfed pretty hard. The only thing that changed is that a blink in the terran base is now less safe than before
THIS IS A REALLY BIG CHANGE!
The knock on the blink-allin was that it wasn't all-in enough. You could scout if the Terran was preparing to defend it and then just NOT make the Stalkers and go to Storm while continuing to fake the allin. Now with the reduced MsC vision (and it's very reduced) it's much harder to judge how prepared your opponent is. So it becomes way more commital. A failed commital Blink allin is 99.9% GG.
as you can see with herO vs Bbyong in GSL, 1 base blink and 2 base blink still works perfectly.
In fact, it works so well herO never does anything else
Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink that easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink ability.
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability.
This is what Protoss players have been saying all along. The map pool vastly favours blink over any other style. The map pool right now is like having 5/7 maps during the 1/1/1 era be of the same structure as Xel'Naga Fortress or Dual Sight. Obviously it is going to skew the matchup. And just like the 1/1/1 era, a small balance change (+1 immortal range in that case, mothership core vision nerf to make blink all-in less safe here) along with a change in maps will likely solve the issue completely. Before we had issues with too many maps being structured like Daybreak. Now we have too many maps in the pool structured like Yeonsu. It's a fairly straightforward issue.
Think about it. This TvP blink issue only started after the last 2013 season of WCS started with some of the maps that still remain in the pool now. Prior to that the matchup was fairly even. If we look at the WCS 2013 Season 2 maps it becomes fairly obvious. For Red City, the only place to blink into the main is right at the ramp near the natural. For Korhal Sky Island (well for the "normal" positions, not the goofy ones), you can't blink into the main at all (or just barely if you can, kinda like Habitation Station). Newkirk had one small edge near the ramp to blink into, and a small area around the side but you could only blink a few stalkers at a time. Likewise for Neo Planet S, one edge near the ramp in the main. Bel'Shir we did see blink a bit on, but it was much more defendable because there was only one access point to the main. Whirlwind you could blink one stalker at a time into the main from the third and that was about it.
Basically it boils down to, if you triple the amount of space required to be defended for a given all-in, it becomes vastly more difficult to hold that all-in. If we look at Yeonsu, if there was no ground around the main where that little ramp for reapers (and common place for cannon rushes in PvP. That area down the ramp from the high ground third) is, then the amount of space required to be defended for blink on that map would halve at least. Small tweaks to the map pool could easily solve the issues with the matchup.
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability.
X10000000000000000
I have been saying this basically since the new maps were introduced.
Heavy Rain is so good for Blink because of the huge surface area that Terran has to defend. On Neo Planet S, if you identified a Blink allin you basically won 100% of the time. With the new maps they are actually so good for it that you can still lose.
On March 07 2014 22:29 imrusty269 wrote: So I heard the new MSC is BLIND?
It sees very little compared to before. The new sight area is 40% of what it used to be. Basically it has the same sight range as a Marine now. Because of how slow it moves it's actually quite easy to lose it to some marines if you're not careful.
So it will take some getting used to. But I can live with it if Terrans stop whining =)
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability.
Maps have always had those layouts. They never were broken until the MsC. Here is a list of all GSL maps ever used. For the second half (the maps that have been usually quite balanced more or less) I have marked all maps that have such a layout. And I have actually been quite strict, not including maps like Ohana or Icarus or others which are not bad for those rushes either.
Kulas Ravine Desert Oasis Blistering Sands Steppes of War Lost Temple Delta Quadrant Scrap Station Metalopolis Xel'Naga Caverns Shakuras Plateau Jungle Basin Crevasse Crossfire SE Tal'Darim Altar Terminus RE Dual Sight Xel'Naga Fortress Bel'Shir Beach
Antiga Shipyard Daybreak Calm Before the Storm Cloud Kingdom Entombed Valley Metropolis ESV Ohana Atlantis Spaceship Whirlwind Abyssal City Bel'Shir Vestige Akilon Wastes/Flats Icarus Neo Planet S Star Station Atlas Red City Anaconda Gwangalli Beach Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct Derelict Watcher Frost Polar Night Yeonsu Alterzim Stronghold Daedalus Point Habitation Station Heavy Rain
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability.
Maps have always had those layouts. They never were broken until the MsC. Here is a list of all GSL maps ever used. For the second half (the maps that have been usually quite balanced more or less) I have marked all maps that have such a layout. And I have actually been quite strict, not including maps like Ohana or Icarus or others which are not bad for those rushes either.
Kulas Ravine Desert Oasis Blistering Sands Steppes of War Lost Temple Delta Quadrant Scrap Station Metalopolis Xel'Naga Caverns Shakuras Plateau Jungle Basin Crevasse Crossfire SE Tal'Darim Altar Terminus RE Dual Sight Xel'Naga Fortress Bel'Shir Beach
Antiga Shipyard Daybreak Calm Before the Storm Cloud Kingdom Entombed Valley Metropolis ESV Ohana Atlantis Spaceship Whirlwind Abyssal City Bel'Shir Vestige Akilon Wastes/Flats Icarus Neo Planet S Star Station Atlas Red City Anaconda Gwangalli Beach Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct Derelict Watcher Frost Polar Night Yeonsu Alterzim Stronghold Daedalus Point Habitation Station Heavy Rain
Before MsC those layouts were more acceptable. You needed a Robo for the high ground vision. Therefore the Blink allin was easier to scout and easier to defend because you needed more tech and you could only do it off one base to hit in time.
Now the layouts are too favorable for Protoss. In order to make Blink allins not viable at all (I think they should be viable at a certain level but this is for argument's sake), you'd have to Nerf Blink/MsC into the ground to a point where they were no longer useful in all 3 matchups. Rather than doing that, why don't we just make the maps a little less blink friendly. Make it so only a few of the maps make blink viable and for the ones where it's viable, don't have a ginormous ramp like on heavy rain where a Terran can build 4 bunkers and still lose.
It's not the strength of the allins that is so strong right now.. it's the commitment it takes to defend them while at the same time not knowing for sure if they're coming. Make it so Terran doesn't have to account for every allin on every map and I guarantee people will be happy.
On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote: That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing.
Sigh, this is what I was just explaining.
Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in.
The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places.
The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know.
The Blink Allin has been nerfed.
The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build.
The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit.
All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want.
Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers.
Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap.
This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build..
One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build.
Most stupid thing ive heard in a while. Please stop spamming this thread and go play a little bit more.
Saying maps alone are responsible for the prevalence of Blink timings in PvT is rewriting history. Maps like Akilon Wastes, Star Station or even Derelict were good maps for Blink and were already here at the beginning of HotS. The other determinant factors are:
- The increasing scarcity of Mine drops (combination of Protoss learning how to defend them while remaining ahead and the Mine nerf; even post-buff Mine drops are not as potent as they used to be), which makes builds skipping detection legit. - The popularity of Oracle openings, creating another simultaneous deadly threat requiring specific defensive measures that lose to Blink (i. e. early EB + 1/2 Turrets, see for instance HerO vs Bogus, Frost, IEM Cologne or + Show Spoiler [Code S RO16] +
Bbyong vs herO, Alterzim, Code S RO16
). - The fact that it took time for Protoss to fully exploit all the nonsense MSC allows them. Compare for instance the current Protoss builds with the ones that were used at the first MLG. 2-bases Blink had to be crafted as well.
Maps are only one factor among those. If you were to reintroduce the old Mine in the current map pool, for instance, things like 4-5-6-7g Blink would practically disappear because a simple Mine drop would slaughter them, and that simple threat would make Blink openings much rarer.
- The MSC nerf is ok in PvT, it still does the scouting just fine in most cases. All you really need is to figure out if it's a 1rax -> factory or not, everything afterwards can be done with an observer scout or a hallucination if you want to do that.
In PvP it's annoying as hell. On some maps it's extremely easy to narrow down where the MSC can come from to scout (Frost close by air for example) and in those cases it becomes virtually impossible to get a scout off on their tech and recall because the first stalker will kill it if you commit. It just makes everything so much more coinflippy. A 2gate msc opening can be absolutely everything and most of the time that's the only thing you'll get to see without taking a risk that can kill you if it backfires.
- I played against bio/mine (both 3rax and 5rax -> 3rd CC) yesterday with blink into templar and it definitely makes the build a lot harder to pull off. You can never kill the mines unless you squeeze in a robo and a few observers (one is NOT reliable, my observers constantly got scanned, especially by the 3rax -> 3rd CC version). That robo would usually have been delayed until right before/after you take your third (HerO vs Polt at IEM for example) and gets a warp prism first to put on some counteraggression. Your warp prism aggression is very delayed with this now even though the robo has to be built in earlier, just because you use the build time for observers that cut into your gas and thus your templar count (which means you may need to consider also building an immortal or two to be safe AND you need to keep more units at home because you have fewer storms). Both games turned into very TvZ-esque micro battles (I won both games by defending until colossus tech and then doing a big timing with colossus, templar, charge and +3 armor).
Most affected by this will still be oracle -> charge/templar because oracles are NOT reliable detection in fights, they get sniped extremely easily by both marines and mines which means a single mistake with the oracle leaves you with absolutely no detection.
What most profits from the mine change is the Taeja and Maru-like "be in their face the whole game, keep them away from a third for as long as possible, trade, trade, trade" style simply because mines are not the most expensive unit to mix into it but very very effective.
- The hydra buff just makes any early hydra timings on protoss third bases stronger which I don't think is a good change. There's already very few ways for protoss to take a safe third without taking risks and the multitude of different timings against said third that zerg can do (+1 speedling, ling/hydra, roach/ling, roach/corruptor, even mass speedling/corruptor) all require different responses that not every build accounts for. I don't think this is a change that was needed at all and it only limits protoss options of taking a safe third even more.
- Overall I'm fine with the changes. Blink openings may need a little more work, I personally feel like a timewarp nerf (duration, maybe radius) would do a lot for all matchups. It's an unforgiving ability. I don't know how you would address proxy tech all ins in PvT other than straight up nerfing overcharge to make them more of a gamble... But then PvP and potentially PvZ would be entirely screwed. Oracle openings... I dunno, maybe a cheap speed upgrade at the cybernetics core with them starting at their old speed but a little reduced in cost? I think that would be a cool change. You could still use oracles as a map control unit, even as a cheese unit, but it wouldn't be as unforgiving immediately, it would leave some time for terran to prepare for it and you'd really have to decide whether or not you want to contain terran more heavily with a super fast oracle or just a softer, perhaps a little cheaper oracle.
You can't just blame maps for the overuse of blink all-ins. Those maps allow interresting things like reaper harass/scout, elevator via dropship/warpprism, fast pathing for colossi, etc...
We can't just throw all this away for the sake of blink stalker all-ins being too strong.
In my opinion the only reasonable change would be a +60sec research time on blink (30sec only if fully chronoboosted, but that means less chronoboosts for gateways) that would allow terran to have one more round of marines/maraudeurs and more time to build in-base bunkers before the protoss can blink in.
Sure it would delay emergency blink research against muta switch, but that's not very relevant in today's metagame.
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability.
This is what Protoss players have been saying all along. The map pool vastly favours blink over any other style. The map pool right now is like having 5/7 maps during the 1/1/1 era be of the same structure as Xel'Naga Fortress or Dual Sight. Obviously it is going to skew the matchup. And just like the 1/1/1 era, a small balance change (+1 immortal range in that case, mothership core vision nerf to make blink all-in less safe here) along with a change in maps will likely solve the issue completely. Before we had issues with too many maps being structured like Daybreak. Now we have too many maps in the pool structured like Yeonsu. It's a fairly straightforward issue.
Think about it. This TvP blink issue only started after the last 2013 season of WCS started with some of the maps that still remain in the pool now. Prior to that the matchup was fairly even. If we look at the WCS 2013 Season 2 maps it becomes fairly obvious. For Red City, the only place to blink into the main is right at the ramp near the natural. For Korhal Sky Island (well for the "normal" positions, not the goofy ones), you can't blink into the main at all (or just barely if you can, kinda like Habitation Station). Newkirk had one small edge near the ramp to blink into, and a small area around the side but you could only blink a few stalkers at a time. Likewise for Neo Planet S, one edge near the ramp in the main. Bel'Shir we did see blink a bit on, but it was much more defendable because there was only one access point to the main. Whirlwind you could blink one stalker at a time into the main from the third and that was about it.
Basically it boils down to, if you triple the amount of space required to be defended for a given all-in, it becomes vastly more difficult to hold that all-in. If we look at Yeonsu, if there was no ground around the main where that little ramp for reapers (and common place for cannon rushes in PvP. That area down the ramp from the high ground third) is, then the amount of space required to be defended for blink on that map would halve at least. Small tweaks to the map pool could easily solve the issues with the matchup.
I agree. Yeonsu and Heavy Rain are probably too blink-friendly. It's a similar problem to how Deadalus was too good for Zerg. It should be simple to release revised edition maps that still allow for blink play, without making it too strong.
Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it.
Agree with DarkLordOlli... PvP is really annoying now and I've just been skipping the MsC altogether and going for 3G Stargate openings. The sight range is so small that you now need to commit really hard to get any scouting information. In which case you get in, see his allin coming and then lose because you don't have energy for the PO... -____-;
Re blink allins:
Why do more Terrans not build a sensor tower? Seriously... the few times I've seen people do it to hold off Blink Stalker allins it's been really good.
You can tell exactly how many Stalkers there are and what angle they are approaching from, which lets you follow them around with your whole army instead of splitting your army in half into bunkers (which means you don't have to spend as much money on bunkers). It also lets you know how commital the Protoss attack is.
EDIT - and LOL at the guy who said he doesn't care about PvP. You may be a whiny, bitter Terran player, but all the matchups need to be balanced, not just the ones you play. PvP is actually somewhat enjoyable to watch and play now. For about a third of StarCraft players, that's really important.
And at which point should bbyong had build the sensor tower in today's games? You mean instead of the spatioport he should have gone for sensor tower? yeah, great idea, problem is, he was dead 30sec after the factory was finished so a sensor tower would have changed nothing (if we suppose he would have had the time to finish building it)...
And even if he was not dead at that time, delaying your spatioport to build a sensor tower (100gas) is a very bad idea since you tend to overstim your units to defend the P blinks-in.
On March 08 2014 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote: Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it.
Err, hellbats introduced and hellbats removed. I don't think it's difficult to find other examples.
On March 08 2014 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote: Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it.
Err, hellbats introduced and hellbats removed. I don't think it's difficult to find other examples.
I'll leave the PvZ arguing to Z's.
Besides, the argument that "we don't care about PvP" is a terrible one to begin with. When terrans complain about mech being too dominant in TvT, should people say the same thing?
On March 08 2014 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote: Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it.
Err, hellbats introduced and hellbats removed. I don't think it's difficult to find other examples.
I'll leave the PvZ arguing to Z's.
Besides, the argument that "we don't care about PvP" is a terrible one to begin with. When terrans complain about mech being too dominant in TvT, should people say the same thing?
Yes, obviously. Fixing a MU should not break another. This is why people like TLO like the new WM change so much. And why people disliked the hellbat nerf as it was, as it clearly neutered them also in TvZ and TvP.
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
MSC shouldn't be able to leave the nexus, like it was done in the beta => no vision at 5', no retarded timewarp, still Overcharge to defend. In other word, much better that it was in WoL, but way less OP than it is now.
On March 08 2014 01:46 Faust852 wrote: MSC shouldn't be able to leave the nexus, like it was done in the beta => no vision at 5', no retarded timewarp, still Overcharge to defend. In other word, much better that it was in WoL, but way less OP than it is now.
I think that time warp should just be deleted. That would make the MSC a lot less stupid, cause i don't know anyone who can argue that FF just are not enough. Because they probably won´t take it out MSC should not be able to cast it twice in a battle. TW and FF--> bye-bye micro.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions.
You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made.
Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden.
In TvP, you're pretty much always going for marines, marauders, and medivacs... and yet you feel so helpless at the beginning of the game! Now imagine that same feeling only you don't know what composition you're even going for. That's PvP.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions.
You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made.
Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden.
Thats basically the same for other races. You scout toss but if you just happen to miss a pylon or get denied you can get fucked really fast. Toss has the best scouting in the game but theres always a chance to miss something. The other races don´t have fun either trying to scout toss and guessing the build of the day.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions.
You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made.
Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden.
In TvP, you're pretty much always going for marines, marauders, and medivacs... and yet you feel so helpless at the beginning of the game! Now imagine that same feeling only you don't know what composition you're even going for. That's PvP.
That's literally what every other race does. Oh no, miss a proxy pylon with a DT shrine? You die to DT's. Miss a pylon with a proxy oracle, too bad, your entire worker line is dead.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions.
You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made.
Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden.
In TvP, you're pretty much always going for marines, marauders, and medivacs... and yet you feel so helpless at the beginning of the game! Now imagine that same feeling only you don't know what composition you're even going for. That's PvP.
PvP will be slightly more volatile, but it won't completely collapse. Just because you can find a game example where the change would be felt doesn't mean that PvP is doomed. The MsC vision nerf was a good change because the unit was way too omniscient and caused issues in PvT. I prefer having PvT being playable with a slight hit to PvP (it's always balanced anyway), and this theme of protoss players prophecizing doom for PvP if you make any slight change to anything protoss seems kinda cynical to me.
Also, why should you have perfect information in PvP when you can't get it in PvT/Z?
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
I have absolutely no idea how you managed to distort my post to end up with this result.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
As I said before, Idra would totally agree. He made many of the same comments about losing to both Terran and Protoss. Of course it is subjective on which is more difficult based on the player and how the prefer to play.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
I have absolutely no idea how you managed to distort my post to end up with this result.
What I took is that the MSC basically supplants the role of high sentry counts and the gas investment those entail and enables you to tech harder, just as safely.
In that world therefore, having potentially game winning tech paths like DT rushes being cheaper than in WoL doesn't make much sense outside of 'encouraging variety'
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
I'll tell it in another way : Allin should be as hard to execute as it is to defend it. Blink allin is much easier to do than defend against it, same goes with 1 SG 3 gate allin, and all the other allin a protoss as at his disposition. I don't know if you even face a proxy oracle into 3 gate void, but as a terran, I can tell you that even scouted, the chance to reboot this is close to 30%. MC did it 3 times in a row to MMA back in season 2 WCS IIRC. It is extremely hard to hold. Blink is extremely hard to hold, and much easier to execute.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
As I said before, Idra would totally agree. He made many of the same comments about losing to both Terran and Protoss. Of course it is subjective on which is more difficult based on the player and how the prefer to play.
I don't mind allin at all, i'm a cheeser myself sometimes, but you won't tell me proxy 11/11 is easy to execute, or at least as easy as a 2 gates proxy ? Both unscouted can kill you, but a zerg can win even if he didn't scout in time. When the 2 gates are down, it's over for the zerg. It's an exemple but there are other, eventhough allin is much more "protosslike" than terran and zerg. When a zerg baneling burst you and you scouted it, he can already call gg, but when a protoss HT zealot allin you, gosh, even prepared, you better be lucky that he miss his storms.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
No. I'm saying that when you defend an all-in correctly, as a better player does, Photon Overcharge is meaningless. Often people will say that Protoss can fall back on Photon Overcharge if their allin fails. This is just an example of that being untrue.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote: [quote] All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote: [quote] All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote: [quote] I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote: [quote] I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
10x is a lot. It's thousands of percent better. I like my hyperbole to be slightly within reason.
And the best part about the argument is that Bomber beat Has. He won, but people still complain about it. The argument boils down to "Bomber had to try to hard to beat Has."
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote: [quote] I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Sure, I can agree with that. Things like JD vs Has was something where I saw as JD playing poorly. Just as Bomber can play like the best player in the world at times, he can look absolutely horrible at others.
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote: [quote] I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
10x is a lot. It's thousands of percent better. I like my hyperbole to be slightly within reason.
And the best part about the argument is that Bomber beat Has. He won, but people still complain about it. The argument boils down to "Bomber had to try to hard to beat Has."
What's the point of hyperbole if it has to be within reason?
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic.
I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged.
Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day):
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic.
I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged.
Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day):
(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.)
There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings? Gaulzi got to Masters using only cannon rushes. Should we nerf cannons? Anyone who repetedly practices doing an uncommon cheese tactic on ladder will win with it more often than not. Win % doesn't make it imba.
Voids are fine in PvZ. There are plenty of units that kill voids. You keep trying to make it seem like the problems with Protoss extend past your view of PvT but they don't. PvZ is fine.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic.
I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged.
Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day):
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote: [quote] I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
There are always going to be some shit head in GM that get there by all-inning his way to glory. Bad habit proved this long ago with his 6 pool all the way to GM. Every game. It doesn't mean that Zerg is broke just because he decided to 6 pool his way to glory.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic.
I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged.
Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day):
(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.)
There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings?
You missed my point. I don't care about the fact you can get to GM by playing exclusively 6 pool, Cannon rushes or 11/11.
I don't think it's uninteresting. Not all of us share your fetish of watching nothing but marines split against banelings in 30 minute parade push TvZs all day long. The variety of play keeps the game entertaining.
Sure there are times when it's a freewin. But there are also times when a player like bomber or Jaedong sniffs out the cheese without seeing it, makes blind defense, and holds. Then we get to admire their amazing spider sense and it's wonderful.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic.
I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged.
Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day):
(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.)
There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings? Gaulzi got to Masters using only cannon rushes. Should we nerf cannons? Anyone who repetedly practices doing an uncommon cheese tactic on ladder will win with it more often than not. Win % doesn't make it imba.
Voids are fine in PvZ. There are plenty of units that kill voids. You keep trying to make it seem like the problems with Protoss extend past your view of PvT but they don't. PvZ is fine.
If you scout the 6p, it's autowin, Same with canon rush, once you learnt how to deal with that, there close to 0 chance to lose against that. That's why I'm happy when I meet Gaulzi.
On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote: But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic.
I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged.
Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day):
(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.)
There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings?
You missed my point. I don't care about the fact you can get to GM by playing exclusively 6 pool, Cannon rushes or 11/11.
I don't think it's uninteresting. Not all of us share your fetish of watching nothing but marines split against banelings in 30 minute parade push TvZs all day long. The variety of play keeps the game entertaining.
Sure there are times when it's a freewin. But there are also times when a player like bomber or Jaedong sniffs out the cheese without seeing it, makes blind defense, and holds. Then we get to admire their amazing spider sense and it's wonderful.
Your assumption is absolutely ridiculous.
Variety of play is nice, but not when it degenerates into coinflips and volatility, and certainly not when it regularly allows worse players to win against better opponents. The competition has no sense if the game is riddled with luck-based play.
I haven't seen void rays be problematic in any matchup at pro level. Zergs have them pretty figured out by now (they even did before they discovered swarm hosts). 3 stargate void ray is extremely rare these days because there are extremely strong timings against it and it's got trouble transitioning against infestation pit tech. The only problem for zerg in PvZ is the maxed out templar/colossus/voidray/tempest army because of its synergy and its ability to cover basically any threat, making the zerg tech switching extremely hard once protoss gets to that stage. I wouldn't really highlight the void ray as the big problem that sticks out there.
Void rays are perfectly figured out in PvP by now, they're only really useful if you're doing some kind of timing attack or as a safety buffer unit if you open stargate and need something to defend counterattacks with. Once the unit compositions involve templar tech then void rays rapidly become useless.
In PvT... I dunno, I never do that all in and I see it too rarely at pro level to really comment on it.
About the 7 minute win, yes it's frustrating but that's always going to be part of any RTS. It was the same in BW (Fantasy lost to a DT rush in the very last BW OSL game) and in every other game. It happens in ZvP if zerg early pools on a 4 player map, it used to happen in WoL when protoss had to guess whether the early gas was for a 1/1/1 or a 2rax (if they even saw it). And 150/150 was done to make DTs a more viable option without them being a cheese-or-lose type of unit. The Dark Shrine cost is not the core issue there and I wouldn't like DTs being massively nerfed in PvZ or PvT when changing its cost doesn't even address the main problem in PvT.
There's variability in builds and decision making in which you can make an informed decision on how a game is going, what you wish to pursue with that in mind and various other things. There's an air to Protoss at the minute when it's a variability in which the defending player is often trying to make the correct decision blindly, which is problematic to many.
Equally, there are tweaks in the latest patch that need worked into existing builds and styles, so let's not be hasty in disregarding those changes.
There's always going to be cheese. Always. In every RTS unless you have NR X minutes people will find cheese.
The first thing I ever did in Age of Empires when I found out you could build with multiple workers at the same time was take all my starting workers, run to the enemy base and build a tower right next to it super fast. I won a lot of games doing that.
The extent that you'd have to go to to buff defensive play to a point where cheese was no longer viable would ruin the game.
All sports have "coinflippy strategies" not just esports. What is a Blitz? It's basically let's hope we can tackle this guy before he manages to throw it to a receiver we've left open. What's a hail mary? It's let's hope they don't defend this one guy and I can throw it really far. If you know these things are coming and you react properly you will beat them most of the time, except when you make a mistake. It's like Starcraft.
I think cheese makes the game fun. I honestly enjoyed the Has cannon rush vs. Jaedong. As much as I wanted to see JD win, the build was incredibly creative.
Some people just hate cheese outright though, but many would share the above opinion with yourself (as do I), I'm just not sure if Protoss isn't in a level above that in annoyance factor
On March 08 2014 06:11 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm just not sure if Protoss isn't in a level above that in annoyance factor
I find it funny that the state of balance right now is pretty much Terrans bitching, ZERGS MAKING INSIGHTFUL REMARKS, and Protoss going "you mad bro? you look mad."
My god, do you know how boring the game would be if we couldn't cheese? I would just check out for the first 10 minutes of every match.
It's like dota 2 and early game invades looking for first blood. If thy put a "fence" down the middle of the map during that time, the game would be "more stable". It would also be more boring.
On March 08 2014 06:11 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm just not sure if Protoss isn't in a level above that in annoyance factor
I find it funny that the state of balance right now is pretty much Terrans bitching, ZERGS MAKING INSIGHTFUL REMARKS, and Protoss going "you mad bro? you look mad."
Now THAT is the craziest opinion I've read in these balance threads in a loooong time : P
On March 08 2014 06:03 DinoMight wrote: There's always going to be cheese. Always. In every RTS unless you have NR X minutes people will find cheese.
The first thing I ever did in Age of Empires when I found out you could build with multiple workers at the same time was take all my starting workers, run to the enemy base and build a tower right next to it super fast. I won a lot of games doing that.
The extent that you'd have to go to to buff defensive play to a point where cheese was no longer viable would ruin the game.
All sports have "coinflippy strategies" not just esports. What is a Blitz? It's basically let's hope we can tackle this guy before he manages to throw it to a receiver we've left open. What's a hail mary? It's let's hope they don't defend this one guy and I can throw it really far. If you know these things are coming and you react properly you will beat them most of the time, except when you make a mistake. It's like Starcraft.
I think cheese makes the game fun. I honestly enjoyed the Has cannon rush vs. Jaedong. As much as I wanted to see JD win, the build was incredibly creative.
Yes, but there needs to be risk/reward for cheese. I think JD defends the Has build 9/10 times if he were to face it again. Problem with blink is that even if scouted, you still have to play perfect to defend it or you lose out right. That is why 11-11 got the bunker nerfed. Scouted 11-11, were defendable by Zerg if they pull the correct number of workers and micro'ed and targetted perfectly. But the margin of error was too small (for the skill level of pros at that time) so 11-11s still won a majority of the games. That is why bunkers were nerfed.
That is the issue with blink, yes, it can be held. But even the top Terran pros don't have a 50% win rate vs scouted blink. And that win rate is just too much for an early game build where is fairly easy to execute. I think changing the maps a bit would also help. Kind of wierd to hear Protoss complain about Daedulus when the majority of the map pool favors blinks so much.
On March 08 2014 06:25 vthree wrote: I think changing the maps a bit would also help. Kind of wierd to hear Protoss complain about Daedulus when the majority of the map pool favors blinks so much.
This is what every Protoss wants lol. Stop touching our units and just fix the maps. Heavy rain ridge does NOT need to be that wide. Yeonsu could have some trees blocking the low ground where Reaper can't jump in anyway.
On March 08 2014 06:11 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm just not sure if Protoss isn't in a level above that in annoyance factor
I find it funny that the state of balance right now is pretty much Terrans bitching, ZERGS MAKING INSIGHTFUL REMARKS, and Protoss going "you mad bro? you look mad."
Now THAT is the craziest opinion I've read in these balance threads in a loooong time : P
Well, to be clear, they are also bitching in addition to the insightful remarks
But they have moved on from the "dog with a history of abusive owners" phase and sometimes contribute positively
On March 08 2014 06:11 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm just not sure if Protoss isn't in a level above that in annoyance factor
I find it funny that the state of balance right now is pretty much Terrans bitching, ZERGS MAKING INSIGHTFUL REMARKS, and Protoss going "you mad bro? you look mad."
Now THAT is the craziest opinion I've read in these balance threads in a loooong time : P
It does sum it all up pretty well, though. Terran whine, zergs provide insight and Protoss saying "can't stop, won't stop."
On March 08 2014 06:03 DinoMight wrote: There's always going to be cheese. Always. In every RTS unless you have NR X minutes people will find cheese.
The first thing I ever did in Age of Empires when I found out you could build with multiple workers at the same time was take all my starting workers, run to the enemy base and build a tower right next to it super fast. I won a lot of games doing that.
The extent that you'd have to go to to buff defensive play to a point where cheese was no longer viable would ruin the game.
All sports have "coinflippy strategies" not just esports. What is a Blitz? It's basically let's hope we can tackle this guy before he manages to throw it to a receiver we've left open. What's a hail mary? It's let's hope they don't defend this one guy and I can throw it really far. If you know these things are coming and you react properly you will beat them most of the time, except when you make a mistake. It's like Starcraft.
I think cheese makes the game fun. I honestly enjoyed the Has cannon rush vs. Jaedong. As much as I wanted to see JD win, the build was incredibly creative.
Your strawman defence is so annoying. All-ins and cheeses are a legitimate part of the game. Pretty much no one except a negligible minority is saying we should remove this from the game or turn SC2 into some NR10.
But.
You need to factor in the concepts of 1. risk/reward ratio and 2. margin of error. When an all-in or cheese is...
1. easy to execute (and unlike what Plansix claims, the difficulty of something can be evaluated somewhat objectively, with the amount of tasks you need to perform, especially simultaneously, the number of times you have to move your camera over different stuff to manage it, the precision needed in your clicks, etc., etc.); 2. difficult/impossible to scout; 3. difficult to hold even when scouted, i. e. the margin of error is thin, very thin or non-existent; 4. and if, on top of that, the defensive side has to commit to the defense to such an extent the thing is no longer all-in or the attacking side has a smooth transition;
... then something is wrong.
Remember the 1-1-1? It obeyed to the three first principles, and sometimes even to the fourth with the second wave killing the Protoss because the first one had dealt so much damage. Protoss players had no troubles identifying these issues when they were on the receiving end of the broken stuff, yet oddly enough they refuse to see it when they're the ones with the broken tools in their hands?
What would you have said to a Terran singing the "You want the death of cheese" chorus when facing Protoss arguments against 1-1-1? Would you have agreed with him? Would you have endured patiently anonymous mid-GM Terrans occasionally winning MC or PartinG with unscoutable, unstoppable pushes? No, you would have answered, "I simply want your stuff to be less deadly, more scoutable, and overall fairer". It's the same thing here.
On March 08 2014 06:03 DinoMight wrote: There's always going to be cheese. Always. In every RTS unless you have NR X minutes people will find cheese.
Maybe, but in many situations the cheese is actually something that could have been defended easily or the information on it happening could have been gathered reliably, even if it takes some effort. Same is not true with certain protoss builds. You simply cannot reliably scout a proxy dark shrine, a proxy oracle (or multiple ones), a proxy robo, proxy blink research in most scenarios, no matter how much you deviate your necessary standard build. And some of those are simply not easy to deter, so you cannot even just put down 2 extra bunkers and everything is fine if you guessed right and it was a blink rush. And Protoss has a lot of that stuff in many matchups and it is simply not fun to play against. You simply feel robbed if you miss the robo as a zerg and suddenly you get punished for not cutting every corner in the book, because that is what it takes to even stand a chance against an immortal/sentry allin.
I guess that stuff (cheeses and rushes) is kind of OK to watch, but playing against it on a higher level is just stupid, since half of the time there was nothing you could have done better with the information you had (and god knows we sacrifice a lot of Overlords and Reapers and workers and sentry energy to get that information). But on that level you usually know what you could have done in that scenario, and you simply get the feeling that you are not playing a PC game anymore, but a game of coins and you just waste your time. At least for me, even when I win against something like a DT rush with Zerg it's frustrating, since all I did was the boring task to get a standard setup that is required off me - and then the game is already decided. I didn't get to play that build I wanted to play. I didn't get to do the unit control I wanted to do. I didn't get to unfold my gameplan.
@Voidrays To me, this unit is the most boring in the pvz matchup. I am not playing zerg myself but the way i see it, is they hinder gameplay more than they give. I to want a change to this unit mainly because its very boring..
Even if zergs have "figured" out how to play versus protoss when they go voidrays i feel it would be much funnier if this unit got changed. I think one of the reasons zerg have to go swarmhosts is because of this unit. But i dont know if the unit is the symptom or one of the core issues And iam not even talking about all the cheeses/allins this unit can do
Edit: just to be clear. Of all mus, voidray in pvz is the most boring Its not the most boring unit in the protoss arsenal imo
On March 08 2014 07:36 Foxxan wrote: @Voidrays To me, this unit is the most boring in the pvz matchup. I am not playing zerg myself but the way i see it, is they hinder gameplay more than they give. I to want a change to this unit mainly because its very boring..
Even if zergs have "figured" out how to play versus protoss when they go voidrays i feel it would be much funnier if this unit got changed. I think one of the reasons zerg have to go swarmhosts is because of this unit. But i dont know if the unit is the symptom or one of the core issues And iam not even talking about all the cheeses/allins this unit can do
I think VRs per se are fine, you could as well blame Templar or Colossi since those are the units that prevent VR countering (with Hydralisks/Infestors) in the late-/endgame.
I could write pages about reasons why the dynamics are what they are, yet, I believe the core problem will always remain the timing possibilities of more costefficient Zerg Units paired with the too high supply costs of same or the too low supply costs of certain Protoss units. E.g. stalker vs roach: a stalker costs 75res more and gets softcountered by roaches - but at the max this also means you have a 75res stronger army and suddenly you are already softcountering roaches just by fielding an army that is worth more. Immortals: 4supply for 350resources. An ultralisk costs 500resources for 6supply. So maxing on Immortals means you have again a more costly (and therefore rightfully stronger) army Tempest, VRs, Templar, Archon... many units that have quite lower supply:resource relations than any of the zerg ground options. Therefore Protoss can field a more costly army. And therefore it is naturally stronger. (the tradeoff being a lack of combat-costefficiency, so your 175res stalker is actually only worth ~150res that you'd spend on roaches in combat)
It means zerg has to engage Protoss with something that he does not have the counters to (like a mass mutalisk switch after a trade, or a ultralisk timing before a good VR/Immortal count) - or rely on strategies that should not be in the game, like massively mobile Static D walls with SHs or to speak in WoL terms with 8marines for 2supply infestors etc...
On March 08 2014 07:36 Foxxan wrote: @Voidrays To me, this unit is the most boring in the pvz matchup. I am not playing zerg myself but the way i see it, is they hinder gameplay more than they give. I to want a change to this unit mainly because its very boring..
Even if zergs have "figured" out how to play versus protoss when they go voidrays i feel it would be much funnier if this unit got changed. I think one of the reasons zerg have to go swarmhosts is because of this unit. But i dont know if the unit is the symptom or one of the core issues And iam not even talking about all the cheeses/allins this unit can do
I think VRs per se are fine, you could as well blame Templar or Colossi since those are the units that prevent VR countering (with Hydralisks/Infestors) in the late-/endgame.
I could write pages about reasons why the dynamics are what they are, yet, I believe the core problem will always remain the timing possibilities of more costefficient Zerg Units paired with the too high supply costs of same or the too low supply costs of certain Protoss units. E.g. stalker vs roach: a stalker costs 75res more and gets softcountered by roaches - but at the max this also means you have a 75res stronger army and suddenly you are already softcountering roaches just by fielding an army that is worth more. Immortals: 4supply for 350resources. An ultralisk costs 500resources for 6supply. So maxing on Immortals means you have again a more costly (and therefore rightfully stronger) army Tempest, VRs, Templar, Archon... many units that have quite lower supply:resource relations than any of the zerg ground options. Therefore Protoss can field a more costly army. And therefore it is naturally stronger. (the tradeoff being a lack of combat-costefficiency, so your 175res stalker is actually only worth ~150res that you'd spend on roaches in combat)
It means zerg has to engage Protoss with something that he does not have the counters to (like a mass mutalisk switch after a trade, or a ultralisk timing before a good VR/Immortal count) - or rely on strategies that should not be in the game, like massively mobile Static D walls with SHs or to speak in WoL terms with 8marines for 2supply infestors etc...
So more or less it goes back to the larva mechanic?
On March 08 2014 06:18 Plansix wrote: My god, do you know how boring the game would be if we couldn't cheese? I would just check out for the first 10 minutes of every match.
It's like dota 2 and early game invades looking for first blood. If thy put a "fence" down the middle of the map during that time, the game would be "more stable". It would also be more boring.
Are you serious? I guess u are. But you havent heard of agressive builds, strategies?
What i like about RTS games are the agressive builds that is not all-in or cheese. Consistensy with good moves, that needs decision from the opponent and provides improvisation. (Battles never the same etc)
Myself just despise allins or cheeses. Its so boring watching a dt win a game for example cuz the opponent have no detection. Or when zerg goes his triple bust or w.e its called (roach,bane,ling) all-in. Toss go blink-allin
And alot of other stuff. Its boring cuz its no counterplay, there are no hard decisions or cool tactics in it. Its more or less about "defend and u win"
Just picture this game with 1base agressive play that is not all-in or cheese and is consistent, it does not put him behind. Or 2base the same
Getting to the point where I'd rather solo queue league of legends than play starcraft... This expansion probably wont ever get balanced... going to have to wait for LotV and see what design changes bliz is going to be able to do if any...
I think you put it well Foxxan. Myself I switched race because I don't like doing all the allins that make Protoss so potent, they just feel a bit cheap sometimes on ladder.
An allin/pressure in which you scout a weakness and reactively punish it is a good part of any RTS. The amount of games where I'd watch replays and it's clearly just an opponent just saying to himself 'this game I do X allin' on ladder doesn't really adhere to what I'd consider the cerebral game. Picking such builds, and blindly executing them is kind of against what I consider fun, but other opinions on that are available. The issue is when the execution requires less skill to pull off than the defence and can succeed even when you know it's coming. DT rushes are a gamble, and while frustrating if you misread I for one can look at it as my opponent taking a big risk that would have thrown him way behind if I'd read better or played safer.
Builds like the 1/1/1, the WonWonWon and arguably the Roach Max timing were so annoying because you could sniff them out a millleee away, take precautions and you're still potentially going to just die.
This isn't meant as an anti-Protoss moan, just a general look at certain allins that I see as problematic. If anything I'd like the possibility to reactively allin to almost be higher somehow.
the real changes are always in the next expansion, blizz want to make u buy them. look at how broodlord-infestor is left untouched until the last days of WoL
tho from the looks of things lotv will eventually bring about its own set of problems
On March 08 2014 07:36 Foxxan wrote: @Voidrays To me, this unit is the most boring in the pvz matchup. I am not playing zerg myself but the way i see it, is they hinder gameplay more than they give. I to want a change to this unit mainly because its very boring..
Even if zergs have "figured" out how to play versus protoss when they go voidrays i feel it would be much funnier if this unit got changed. I think one of the reasons zerg have to go swarmhosts is because of this unit. But i dont know if the unit is the symptom or one of the core issues And iam not even talking about all the cheeses/allins this unit can do
I think VRs per se are fine, you could as well blame Templar or Colossi since those are the units that prevent VR countering (with Hydralisks/Infestors) in the late-/endgame.
I could write pages about reasons why the dynamics are what they are, yet, I believe the core problem will always remain the timing possibilities of more costefficient Zerg Units paired with the too high supply costs of same or the too low supply costs of certain Protoss units. E.g. stalker vs roach: a stalker costs 75res more and gets softcountered by roaches - but at the max this also means you have a 75res stronger army and suddenly you are already softcountering roaches just by fielding an army that is worth more. Immortals: 4supply for 350resources. An ultralisk costs 500resources for 6supply. So maxing on Immortals means you have again a more costly (and therefore rightfully stronger) army Tempest, VRs, Templar, Archon... many units that have quite lower supply:resource relations than any of the zerg ground options. Therefore Protoss can field a more costly army. And therefore it is naturally stronger. (the tradeoff being a lack of combat-costefficiency, so your 175res stalker is actually only worth ~150res that you'd spend on roaches in combat)
It means zerg has to engage Protoss with something that he does not have the counters to (like a mass mutalisk switch after a trade, or a ultralisk timing before a good VR/Immortal count) - or rely on strategies that should not be in the game, like massively mobile Static D walls with SHs or to speak in WoL terms with 8marines for 2supply infestors etc...
So more or less it goes back to the larva mechanic?
I don't think you can pin it down to one thing alone, there are way to many contradictions with this. Like, you could say that the larva mechanic makes it so that Zerg can hit strong timings with units like roaches and the drawback is that building those when you don't need them is your punishment. But that kind of contradicts TvZ, where those timings are not nearly as strong. So you could go the other way around and say Protoss units are too weak. But that contradicts again that they are very, very strong in many situations, starting with early game stalker pokes, to warpgate allins, to just the power of massive stalkerballs with just a handful of support against a roach/hydra army. Same with VRs or Tempests or SHs being "too strong". They are not when you play them against a bio-Terran, then they are actually rather too weak. Even Protoss players have good tricks against VR/Tempest and Zergs hardly ever get into those situations where it becomes SH wars.
It's many little dynamics that contribute to the situation we have and I think the crux of them is usually that a Zerg gets punished very hard for making units without doing damage in ZvP and a Protoss gets punished very hard for losing units, even when he does some damage. It makes for a situation in which the Zerg does not want to build units unless forced to and the Protoss does not want to use his units, unless it is very safe to. **Most obviously, the situation has become much better in HotS. Recall, the absence of a strong fungal and many tweaks (Prism buff, Oracles, flying units in general) let Protoss players play more actively and stronger hydralisks, mutalisks and Vipertransitions let Zerg extend their usage of midgame units. But it is still quite recognizeable and expressed in SH turtle endgames, which are the only choice against nearly all variations of ultimate Protoss armies. I'd say there is still a lot of potential to improve the matchup by changing relations - without even touching "core mechanics" at all.
On March 08 2014 07:36 Foxxan wrote: @Voidrays To me, this unit is the most boring in the pvz matchup. I am not playing zerg myself but the way i see it, is they hinder gameplay more than they give. I to want a change to this unit mainly because its very boring..
Even if zergs have "figured" out how to play versus protoss when they go voidrays i feel it would be much funnier if this unit got changed. I think one of the reasons zerg have to go swarmhosts is because of this unit. But i dont know if the unit is the symptom or one of the core issues And iam not even talking about all the cheeses/allins this unit can do
I think VRs per se are fine, you could as well blame Templar or Colossi since those are the units that prevent VR countering (with Hydralisks/Infestors) in the late-/endgame.
I could write pages about reasons why the dynamics are what they are, yet, I believe the core problem will always remain the timing possibilities of more costefficient Zerg Units paired with the too high supply costs of same or the too low supply costs of certain Protoss units. E.g. stalker vs roach: a stalker costs 75res more and gets softcountered by roaches - but at the max this also means you have a 75res stronger army and suddenly you are already softcountering roaches just by fielding an army that is worth more. Immortals: 4supply for 350resources. An ultralisk costs 500resources for 6supply. So maxing on Immortals means you have again a more costly (and therefore rightfully stronger) army Tempest, VRs, Templar, Archon... many units that have quite lower supply:resource relations than any of the zerg ground options. Therefore Protoss can field a more costly army. And therefore it is naturally stronger. (the tradeoff being a lack of combat-costefficiency, so your 175res stalker is actually only worth ~150res that you'd spend on roaches in combat)
It means zerg has to engage Protoss with something that he does not have the counters to (like a mass mutalisk switch after a trade, or a ultralisk timing before a good VR/Immortal count) - or rely on strategies that should not be in the game, like massively mobile Static D walls with SHs or to speak in WoL terms with 8marines for 2supply infestors etc...
So more or less it goes back to the larva mechanic?
I don't think you can pin it down to one thing alone, there are way to many contradictions with this. Like, you could say that the larva mechanic makes it so that Zerg can hit strong timings with units like roaches and the drawback is that building those when you don't need them is your punishment. But that kind of contradicts TvZ, where those timings are not nearly as strong. So you could go the other way around and say Protoss units are too weak. But that contradicts again that they are very, very strong in many situations, starting with early game stalker pokes, to warpgate allins, to just the power of massive stalkerballs with just a handful of support against a roach/hydra army. Same with VRs or Tempests or SHs being "too strong". They are not when you play them against a bio-Terran, then they are actually rather too weak. Even Protoss players have good tricks against VR/Tempest and Zergs hardly ever get into those situations where it becomes SH wars.
It's many little dynamics that contribute to the situation we have and I think the crux of them is usually that a Zerg gets punished very hard for making units without doing damage in ZvP and a Protoss gets punished very hard for losing units, even when he does some damage. It makes for a situation in which the Zerg does not want to build units unless forced to and the Protoss does not want to use his units, unless it is very safe to. **Most obviously, the situation has become much better in HotS. Recall, the absence of a strong fungal and many tweaks (Prism buff, Oracles, flying units in general) let Protoss players play more actively and stronger hydralisks, mutalisks and Vipertransitions let Zerg extend their usage of midgame units. But it is still quite recognizeable and expressed in SH turtle endgames, which are the only choice against nearly all variations of ultimate Protoss armies. I'd say there is still a lot of potential to improve the matchup by changing relations - without even touching "core mechanics" at all.
I think the issue with the larvamechanic in Sc2 is that it allows the zerg player to dominate the midgame. He can simply always have more stuff than his opponent. Especially in late WOL that was quite apparent where both the protoss and the terran had to turtle --> a timing attack, which created quite boring games.
In HOTS, Blizzard solved the issue for terran by giving them a mobile AOE (the Widow Mine) and a strong escape goat in the Speed-medivac. This gave terran a way of putting constant pressure on the zerg player, even if he had the inferior army size. However, the solution for the protoss player was IMO quite terrible (Recall on Mothership Core). It wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard in the next expansion would try to replicate the succes formula of TvZ into the protoss arsenal. They will probably (hopefully) look at both Sentry and the Collosus and try to make it easier for protoss to move out --> do a bit of damage and then retreat while not losing the whole army.
I think they should also nerf larva a bit (maybe 3 larva instead of 4 per round) and at the same time replace the Mule w/ something else (a less strong macromechanic). That will roughly maintain TvZ balance, and will make it easier for protoss to secure map control (without allining) against both zerg and terran, thus less turtling (hopefully). A sideadvantage of removing the mule is that it actually makes it possible to rebuff Siege Tanks back to 2 supply (as mech atm benefits too much from mass OC spamming + no workers + Siege Tanks/Ravens).
On March 08 2014 06:03 DinoMight wrote: There's always going to be cheese. Always. In every RTS unless you have NR X minutes people will find cheese.
The first thing I ever did in Age of Empires when I found out you could build with multiple workers at the same time was take all my starting workers, run to the enemy base and build a tower right next to it super fast. I won a lot of games doing that.
The extent that you'd have to go to to buff defensive play to a point where cheese was no longer viable would ruin the game.
All sports have "coinflippy strategies" not just esports. What is a Blitz? It's basically let's hope we can tackle this guy before he manages to throw it to a receiver we've left open. What's a hail mary? It's let's hope they don't defend this one guy and I can throw it really far. If you know these things are coming and you react properly you will beat them most of the time, except when you make a mistake. It's like Starcraft.
I think cheese makes the game fun. I honestly enjoyed the Has cannon rush vs. Jaedong. As much as I wanted to see JD win, the build was incredibly creative.
Your strawman defence is so annoying. All-ins and cheeses are a legitimate part of the game. Pretty much no one except a negligible minority is saying we should remove this from the game or turn SC2 into some NR10.
But.
You need to factor in the concepts of 1. risk/reward ratio and 2. margin of error. When an all-in or cheese is...
1. easy to execute (and unlike what Plansix claims, the difficulty of something can be evaluated somewhat objectively, with the amount of tasks you need to perform, especially simultaneously, the number of times you have to move your camera over different stuff to manage it, the precision needed in your clicks, etc., etc.); 2. difficult/impossible to scout; 3. difficult to hold even when scouted, i. e. the margin of error is thin, very thin or non-existent; 4. and if, on top of that, the defensive side has to commit to the defense to such an extent the thing is no longer all-in or the attacking side has a smooth transition;
... then something is wrong.
Remember the 1-1-1? It obeyed to the three first principles, and sometimes even to the fourth with the second wave killing the Protoss because the first one had dealt so much damage. Protoss players had no troubles identifying these issues when they were on the receiving end of the broken stuff, yet oddly enough they refuse to see it when they're the ones with the broken tools in their hands?
What would you have said to a Terran singing the "You want the death of cheese" chorus when facing Protoss arguments against 1-1-1? Would you have agreed with him? Would you have endured patiently anonymous mid-GM Terrans occasionally winning MC or PartinG with unscoutable, unstoppable pushes? No, you would have answered, "I simply want your stuff to be less deadly, more scoutable, and overall fairer". It's the same thing here.
This.... One post of this guy is worth 1000 plansix ones...
On March 08 2014 07:36 Foxxan wrote: @Voidrays To me, this unit is the most boring in the pvz matchup. I am not playing zerg myself but the way i see it, is they hinder gameplay more than they give. I to want a change to this unit mainly because its very boring..
Even if zergs have "figured" out how to play versus protoss when they go voidrays i feel it would be much funnier if this unit got changed. I think one of the reasons zerg have to go swarmhosts is because of this unit. But i dont know if the unit is the symptom or one of the core issues And iam not even talking about all the cheeses/allins this unit can do
I think VRs per se are fine, you could as well blame Templar or Colossi since those are the units that prevent VR countering (with Hydralisks/Infestors) in the late-/endgame.
I could write pages about reasons why the dynamics are what they are, yet, I believe the core problem will always remain the timing possibilities of more costefficient Zerg Units paired with the too high supply costs of same or the too low supply costs of certain Protoss units. E.g. stalker vs roach: a stalker costs 75res more and gets softcountered by roaches - but at the max this also means you have a 75res stronger army and suddenly you are already softcountering roaches just by fielding an army that is worth more. Immortals: 4supply for 350resources. An ultralisk costs 500resources for 6supply. So maxing on Immortals means you have again a more costly (and therefore rightfully stronger) army Tempest, VRs, Templar, Archon... many units that have quite lower supply:resource relations than any of the zerg ground options. Therefore Protoss can field a more costly army. And therefore it is naturally stronger. (the tradeoff being a lack of combat-costefficiency, so your 175res stalker is actually only worth ~150res that you'd spend on roaches in combat)
It means zerg has to engage Protoss with something that he does not have the counters to (like a mass mutalisk switch after a trade, or a ultralisk timing before a good VR/Immortal count) - or rely on strategies that should not be in the game, like massively mobile Static D walls with SHs or to speak in WoL terms with 8marines for 2supply infestors etc...
So more or less it goes back to the larva mechanic?
I don't think you can pin it down to one thing alone, there are way to many contradictions with this. Like, you could say that the larva mechanic makes it so that Zerg can hit strong timings with units like roaches and the drawback is that building those when you don't need them is your punishment. But that kind of contradicts TvZ, where those timings are not nearly as strong. So you could go the other way around and say Protoss units are too weak. But that contradicts again that they are very, very strong in many situations, starting with early game stalker pokes, to warpgate allins, to just the power of massive stalkerballs with just a handful of support against a roach/hydra army. Same with VRs or Tempests or SHs being "too strong". They are not when you play them against a bio-Terran, then they are actually rather too weak. Even Protoss players have good tricks against VR/Tempest and Zergs hardly ever get into those situations where it becomes SH wars.
It's many little dynamics that contribute to the situation we have and I think the crux of them is usually that a Zerg gets punished very hard for making units without doing damage in ZvP and a Protoss gets punished very hard for losing units, even when he does some damage. It makes for a situation in which the Zerg does not want to build units unless forced to and the Protoss does not want to use his units, unless it is very safe to. **Most obviously, the situation has become much better in HotS. Recall, the absence of a strong fungal and many tweaks (Prism buff, Oracles, flying units in general) let Protoss players play more actively and stronger hydralisks, mutalisks and Vipertransitions let Zerg extend their usage of midgame units. But it is still quite recognizeable and expressed in SH turtle endgames, which are the only choice against nearly all variations of ultimate Protoss armies. I'd say there is still a lot of potential to improve the matchup by changing relations - without even touching "core mechanics" at all.
I think the issue with the larvamechanic in Sc2 is that it allows the zerg player to dominate the midgame. He can simply always have more stuff than his opponent. Especially in late WOL that was quite apparent where both the protoss and the terran had to turtle --> a timing attack, which created quite boring games.
In HOTS, Blizzard solved the issue for terran by giving them a mobile AOE (the Widow Mine) and a strong escape goat in the Speed-medivac. This gave terran a way of putting constant pressure on the zerg player, even if he had the inferior army size. However, the solution for the protoss player was IMO quite terrible (Recall on Mothership Core). It wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard in the next expansion would try to replicate the succes formula of TvZ into the protoss arsenal. They will probably (hopefully) look at both Sentry and the Collosus and try to make it easier for protoss to move out --> do a bit of damage and then retreat while not losing the whole army.
I think they should also nerf larva a bit (maybe 3 larva instead of 4 per round) and at the same time replace the Mule w/ something else (a less strong macromechanic). That will roughly maintain TvZ balance, and will make it easier for protoss to secure map control (without allining) against both zerg and terran, thus less turtling (hopefully). A sideadvantage of removing the mule is that it actually makes it possible to rebuff Siege Tanks back to 2 supply (as mech atm benefits too much from mass OC spamming + no workers + Siege Tanks/Ravens).
Yeah, I think such tweaks would be good (like larva to 3). I'm also inclined to like the recall mechanic, I think recalls are very interesting and exciting. They are just not enough on their own, since you cannot recall a drop and the decisionmaking involved is very, very distinct.
To Zerg dominating the midgame, I think I know what situations you talk about, but I think it's not quite true that those builds with explosive production just "make Zerg dominate the midgame". It comes with similar if not the same drawbacks that P/T have when they 2-3base push a Zerg, that is they will have a hard time in the lategame. But in both of those matchups - ZvT and ZvP - both parties usually can just decide to play like that. Of course with differences - a blue flame hellion push of 2base had probably less chance of coming back than a 3base 2-2 muta/ling/bling timing. A 3base 2-2 Marine/Tank/Medivac timing was probably stronger than anything Zerg could do before Hivetech. Sentry/Immortal is probably up to date the most successful allin. So successful that you could even start a discussion about whether it should even be considered unorthodox to play like that, since it's winchances seem to be as high as playing a good macro game. What is true however is that Zergs really got (and against Protoss get) to dominate the map.
On March 08 2014 07:36 Foxxan wrote: @Voidrays To me, this unit is the most boring in the pvz matchup. I am not playing zerg myself but the way i see it, is they hinder gameplay more than they give. I to want a change to this unit mainly because its very boring..
Even if zergs have "figured" out how to play versus protoss when they go voidrays i feel it would be much funnier if this unit got changed. I think one of the reasons zerg have to go swarmhosts is because of this unit. But i dont know if the unit is the symptom or one of the core issues And iam not even talking about all the cheeses/allins this unit can do
I think VRs per se are fine, you could as well blame Templar or Colossi since those are the units that prevent VR countering (with Hydralisks/Infestors) in the late-/endgame.
I could write pages about reasons why the dynamics are what they are, yet, I believe the core problem will always remain the timing possibilities of more costefficient Zerg Units paired with the too high supply costs of same or the too low supply costs of certain Protoss units. E.g. stalker vs roach: a stalker costs 75res more and gets softcountered by roaches - but at the max this also means you have a 75res stronger army and suddenly you are already softcountering roaches just by fielding an army that is worth more. Immortals: 4supply for 350resources. An ultralisk costs 500resources for 6supply. So maxing on Immortals means you have again a more costly (and therefore rightfully stronger) army Tempest, VRs, Templar, Archon... many units that have quite lower supply:resource relations than any of the zerg ground options. Therefore Protoss can field a more costly army. And therefore it is naturally stronger. (the tradeoff being a lack of combat-costefficiency, so your 175res stalker is actually only worth ~150res that you'd spend on roaches in combat)
It means zerg has to engage Protoss with something that he does not have the counters to (like a mass mutalisk switch after a trade, or a ultralisk timing before a good VR/Immortal count) - or rely on strategies that should not be in the game, like massively mobile Static D walls with SHs or to speak in WoL terms with 8marines for 2supply infestors etc...
So more or less it goes back to the larva mechanic?
I don't think you can pin it down to one thing alone, there are way to many contradictions with this. Like, you could say that the larva mechanic makes it so that Zerg can hit strong timings with units like roaches and the drawback is that building those when you don't need them is your punishment. But that kind of contradicts TvZ, where those timings are not nearly as strong. So you could go the other way around and say Protoss units are too weak. But that contradicts again that they are very, very strong in many situations, starting with early game stalker pokes, to warpgate allins, to just the power of massive stalkerballs with just a handful of support against a roach/hydra army. Same with VRs or Tempests or SHs being "too strong". They are not when you play them against a bio-Terran, then they are actually rather too weak. Even Protoss players have good tricks against VR/Tempest and Zergs hardly ever get into those situations where it becomes SH wars.
It's many little dynamics that contribute to the situation we have and I think the crux of them is usually that a Zerg gets punished very hard for making units without doing damage in ZvP and a Protoss gets punished very hard for losing units, even when he does some damage. It makes for a situation in which the Zerg does not want to build units unless forced to and the Protoss does not want to use his units, unless it is very safe to. **Most obviously, the situation has become much better in HotS. Recall, the absence of a strong fungal and many tweaks (Prism buff, Oracles, flying units in general) let Protoss players play more actively and stronger hydralisks, mutalisks and Vipertransitions let Zerg extend their usage of midgame units. But it is still quite recognizeable and expressed in SH turtle endgames, which are the only choice against nearly all variations of ultimate Protoss armies. I'd say there is still a lot of potential to improve the matchup by changing relations - without even touching "core mechanics" at all.
I think the issue with the larvamechanic in Sc2 is that it allows the zerg player to dominate the midgame. He can simply always have more stuff than his opponent. Especially in late WOL that was quite apparent where both the protoss and the terran had to turtle --> a timing attack, which created quite boring games.
In HOTS, Blizzard solved the issue for terran by giving them a mobile AOE (the Widow Mine) and a strong escape goat in the Speed-medivac. This gave terran a way of putting constant pressure on the zerg player, even if he had the inferior army size. However, the solution for the protoss player was IMO quite terrible (Recall on Mothership Core). It wouldn't surprise me if Blizzard in the next expansion would try to replicate the succes formula of TvZ into the protoss arsenal. They will probably (hopefully) look at both Sentry and the Collosus and try to make it easier for protoss to move out --> do a bit of damage and then retreat while not losing the whole army.
I think they should also nerf larva a bit (maybe 3 larva instead of 4 per round) and at the same time replace the Mule w/ something else (a less strong macromechanic). That will roughly maintain TvZ balance, and will make it easier for protoss to secure map control (without allining) against both zerg and terran, thus less turtling (hopefully). A sideadvantage of removing the mule is that it actually makes it possible to rebuff Siege Tanks back to 2 supply (as mech atm benefits too much from mass OC spamming + no workers + Siege Tanks/Ravens).
protoss doesn't have to be turtling. Look at hero (both) style, aggressive and multi tasking focus with storm drop and chargelot runby/drops etc
I have said this before, protoss is the only race that let an aggressive players like hero or parting and defensive players like rain and creator to showcase their different style.
The problem of WoL was largely different to what we have in HotS when it comes to zerg.
WoL TvZ was all about timing pushes is not because zerg has larva and more stuff than terran in mid game, it is because mid game composition for zerg could hold on almost anything the terran throw at them. this is why terran just go for pre hive/pre broodlord timing instead.
MKP has some success with his CS marine +1 move out into pure bio late WoL, which is a great strategy especially for smaller maps that zerg can't just turtle and defend with infestor while teching upto broodlords/ultras.
There were relatively few builds that terran had innovated which focuses on mid game timing like MKP had. Most were early medivac timing into powering on 3 base and push out and one big trade decide everything.
In Hots, this is largely because mutas regen is so powerful and all these speed buff like medivac speed buff, phoenix range upgrade, etc just breaks the balance we had before. But is it a huge problem? I won't say so yet, since if Zerg can't break a terran with a heavy muta style, it becomes a hard game because while terran is slowly defending against the mutas, they are already transitioning into their great mix marauder viking marines thor medivac that can deal with almost all zerg can throw at the army.
so long the timing between zerg breaking a terran with mass muta and terran getting a nice army ball is not too great, game is looking pretty solid.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
Actually the reason I stop posting when TheDwf posts is because he is so incredibly biased that there is simply no reasoning with him.
Yes it's true he's very skilled at the game and is a higher rank than most people... but so is Taeja. And that guy is the biggest whiner in esports despite winning all the tournaments that he does.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
... he is so incredibly biased ...
This... coming from you? ...
I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
On March 09 2014 03:28 VieuxSinge wrote: The fast he is biased prevent you from being able to respond to TheDwf's points?
Seems legit
It's like trying to argue with a religious person about their religion. They are not going to change their mind regardless of what you say. So what's the point?
Sure I can respond to his comments, but he will always respond with something farfetched that supposedly 'counters' my argument. And then it's back to the beginning.
EDIT - sure I will respond to his post
Actually in Wings of Liberty during the 1/1/1 days I said very little and worked very hard to figure out a way to counter it. I tried everything from Phoenixes to DTs to straight Colossus rushes. Something may be imbalanced, sure.. but I always find that the perception of imbalance is stronger than the actual imbalance. If more people tried to find a solution instead of just whining we might get somewhere.
FYI - DT rush into fast Colossus worked great against 1/1/1 because it delayed it enough that you actually had a chance to build up an army big enough to engage the Terran sieged outside your base. And you could straight kill them if they didn't make a Raven. I've seen HerO and Squirtle use this in pro matches too.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
... he is so incredibly biased ...
This... coming from you? ...
I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
On March 09 2014 03:28 VieuxSinge wrote: The fast he is biased prevent you from being able to respond to TheDwf's points?
Seems legit
It's like trying to argue with a religious person about their religion. They are not going to change their mind regardless of what you say. So what's the point?
Sure I can respond to his comments, but he will always respond with something farfetched that supposedly 'counters' my argument. And then it's back to the beginning.
Nope. You are pretty bias. Especially at the beginning before Blizzard admitted there were issues with TvP and made patch changes.
Dinomight, maybe you should know then that I consider you the most biased protoss poster on this board.
There are many protoss biased posters I know and tend to argue with, but I skip your posts entirely. A combination of bias and ignorance that just isnt worth my time.
I think we can safely say that we are all pretty bias. I can't think of a single poster in this thread that isn't bias in one direction or another. Trying to discredit peoples points by claiming they are bias is like trying to discredit them by saying they are breathing. We all have an ax to grind.
On March 08 2014 06:03 DinoMight wrote: There's always going to be cheese. Always. In every RTS unless you have NR X minutes people will find cheese.
The first thing I ever did in Age of Empires when I found out you could build with multiple workers at the same time was take all my starting workers, run to the enemy base and build a tower right next to it super fast. I won a lot of games doing that.
The extent that you'd have to go to to buff defensive play to a point where cheese was no longer viable would ruin the game.
All sports have "coinflippy strategies" not just esports. What is a Blitz? It's basically let's hope we can tackle this guy before he manages to throw it to a receiver we've left open. What's a hail mary? It's let's hope they don't defend this one guy and I can throw it really far. If you know these things are coming and you react properly you will beat them most of the time, except when you make a mistake. It's like Starcraft.
I think cheese makes the game fun. I honestly enjoyed the Has cannon rush vs. Jaedong. As much as I wanted to see JD win, the build was incredibly creative.
Your strawman defence is so annoying. All-ins and cheeses are a legitimate part of the game. Pretty much no one except a negligible minority is saying we should remove this from the game or turn SC2 into some NR10.
But.
You need to factor in the concepts of 1. risk/reward ratio and 2. margin of error. When an all-in or cheese is...
1. easy to execute (and unlike what Plansix claims, the difficulty of something can be evaluated somewhat objectively, with the amount of tasks you need to perform, especially simultaneously, the number of times you have to move your camera over different stuff to manage it, the precision needed in your clicks, etc., etc.); 2. difficult/impossible to scout; 3. difficult to hold even when scouted, i. e. the margin of error is thin, very thin or non-existent; 4. and if, on top of that, the defensive side has to commit to the defense to such an extent the thing is no longer all-in or the attacking side has a smooth transition;
... then something is wrong.
Remember the 1-1-1? It obeyed to the three first principles, and sometimes even to the fourth with the second wave killing the Protoss because the first one had dealt so much damage. Protoss players had no troubles identifying these issues when they were on the receiving end of the broken stuff, yet oddly enough they refuse to see it when they're the ones with the broken tools in their hands?
What would you have said to a Terran singing the "You want the death of cheese" chorus when facing Protoss arguments against 1-1-1? Would you have agreed with him? Would you have endured patiently anonymous mid-GM Terrans occasionally winning MC or PartinG with unscoutable, unstoppable pushes? No, you would have answered, "I simply want your stuff to be less deadly, more scoutable, and overall fairer". It's the same thing here.
This.... One post of this guy is worth 1000 plansix ones...
Look at hero (both) style, aggressive and multi tasking focus with storm drop and chargelot runby/drops etc
Late game perhaps. But in midgame, they simply have to sit defending their natural or 3rd against both terran and zerg. Unless ofc they go for the allins. And then ofc you could say that blink stalkers and Sentinels aren't all ins, but the risk/reward of these builds are so dumb so they actually should be all ins given how easy it is win straight up with them.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
... he is so incredibly biased ...
This... coming from you? ...
I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote: Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary...
"..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss"
Rofl.
People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL.
If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it.
Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..."
I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate.
You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race.
You may disagree on perceived balance, but don't think for a second that playing Terran is more noble than the other races.
If that's how you see it, I suggest you try your hand at PvZ and let me know how easy and broken it feels.
I found this gem. Took me a minute because I wanted to see your perspective on two major "imbalanced eras" of SC2. Looks to me that you're quite invested in Protoss!
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
... he is so incredibly biased ...
This... coming from you? ...
I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote: Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary...
"..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss"
Rofl.
People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL.
If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it.
Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..."
I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate.
You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race.
You may disagree on perceived balance, but don't think for a second that playing Terran is more noble than the other races.
If that's how you see it, I suggest you try your hand at PvZ and let me know how easy and broken it feels.
I found this gem. Took me a minute because I wanted to see your perspective on two major "imbalanced eras" of SC2. Looks to me that you're quite invested in Protoss!
Congratulations. You've discovered... that I main Protoss? What's the point of this post?
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
... he is so incredibly biased ...
This... coming from you? ...
I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
On December 18 2013 08:09 DinoMight wrote:
On December 18 2013 07:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
On December 18 2013 07:31 DinoMight wrote:
On December 18 2013 07:16 Survivor61316 wrote:
On December 17 2013 16:29 JSK wrote:
On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote: Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary...
"..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss"
Rofl.
People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL.
If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it.
Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..."
I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate.
You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race.
You may disagree on perceived balance, but don't think for a second that playing Terran is more noble than the other races.
If that's how you see it, I suggest you try your hand at PvZ and let me know how easy and broken it feels.
I found this gem. Took me a minute because I wanted to see your perspective on two major "imbalanced eras" of SC2. Looks to me that you're quite invested in Protoss!
Congratulations. You've discovered... that I main Protoss? What's the point of this post?
That this post was utter BS:
On March 09 2014 03:38 DinoMight wrote: I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
On March 08 2014 22:01 Faust852 wrote: The funniest fact is that when theDwf speaks, everyone is shut up afterward. No more argument against that kind of logic
Cause they can't say anything cause none of them actually says something of value or with proof and reasoning. They shut the fuck up until people forget TheDwf's post and they'll come posting the same shit again.
... he is so incredibly biased ...
This... coming from you? ...
I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
On December 18 2013 08:09 DinoMight wrote:
On December 18 2013 07:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
On December 18 2013 07:31 DinoMight wrote:
On December 18 2013 07:16 Survivor61316 wrote:
On December 17 2013 16:29 JSK wrote:
On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote: Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary...
"..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss"
Rofl.
People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL.
If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it.
Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..."
I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate.
You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race.
You may disagree on perceived balance, but don't think for a second that playing Terran is more noble than the other races.
If that's how you see it, I suggest you try your hand at PvZ and let me know how easy and broken it feels.
I found this gem. Took me a minute because I wanted to see your perspective on two major "imbalanced eras" of SC2. Looks to me that you're quite invested in Protoss!
Congratulations. You've discovered... that I main Protoss? What's the point of this post?
On March 09 2014 03:38 DinoMight wrote: I actually play all three races quite a lot. I may seem biased because of my writing style, but I think I'm actually fairly reasonable in terms of being partial to one race.
Sigh. Look up my bnet account if you want. It's DinoMight as well. I've been playing a lot of Terran and Zerg lately as well.
I mean, you can think what you want really it doesn't matter...
Everyone here is biased in some way or another. That's partially why we all know each other and meet each other in the threads. My problem has, and always will be that DinoMight never provides any evidence, while TheDwf does. Back up what you say with specific games from pros, and I know I would look at your opinions more favorably.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote: [quote]
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote: [quote]
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
On March 09 2014 04:53 Chaggi wrote: Everyone here is biased in some way or another. That's partially why we all know each other and meet each other in the threads. My problem has, and always will be that DinoMight never provides any evidence, while TheDwf does. Back up what you say with specific games from pros, and I know I would look at your opinions more favorably.
Sounds reasonable. Although I did give a lot of pro game examples yesterday. But I haven't always.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote: [quote]
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
This is the only point I'm arguing. Terrans looked broken at release, but since no one really knew how to play, I reserved judgment. Then Morrow vs Idra happened. When the Queen range buff got implemented, I express doubts but gave it time before bringing out the complaints. Then BL/Infestor became an unstoppable force for all matchups. The Protoss domination is much harder to pinpoint on one single composition, but I don't understand how you can argue "everything's fine" when representation and results prove otherwise.
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote: [quote]
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
This is the only point I'm arguing. Terrans looked broken at release, but since no one really knew how to play, I reserved judgment. Then Morrow vs Idra happened. When the Queen range buff got implemented, I express doubts but gave it time before bringing out the complaints. Then BL/Infestor became an unstoppable force for all matchups. The Protoss domination is much harder to pinpoint on one single composition, but I don't understand how you can argue "everything's fine" when representation and results prove otherwise.
its not as bad as it looked in gsl at the ro32.
If soulkey hadn't flunked his group we would have 1 T, 3Z, 4P, whitch isn't good but not too bad either. Most of the other tournaments have a pretty good distribution as far as I have seen, even though it still looks slightly P favoured. Keep in mind that the patch wasn't released at that time. wcs america had 12P 11T 9Z. wcs europe had 13P 8T 7Z.
On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote: I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
Only Bomber and jjakji switched to another region from the previous season, and Hack and Ryung even returned to Korea. The Terran representation in Code S is so low this season because Protoss went 31-8 vs Terran in Code A.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote: [quote]
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
This is the only point I'm arguing. Terrans looked broken at release, but since no one really knew how to play, I reserved judgment. Then Morrow vs Idra happened. When the Queen range buff got implemented, I express doubts but gave it time before bringing out the complaints. Then BL/Infestor became an unstoppable force for all matchups. The Protoss domination is much harder to pinpoint on one single composition, but I don't understand how you can argue "everything's fine" when representation and results prove otherwise.
its not as bad as it looked in gsl at the ro32.
If soulkey hadn't flunked his group we would have 1 T, 3Z, 4P, whitch isn't good but not too bad either. Most of the other tournaments have a pretty good distribution as far as I have seen, even though it still looks slightly P favoured. Keep in mind that the patch wasn't released at that time. wcs america had 12P 11T 9Z. wcs europe had 13P 8T 7Z.
There's also the 3 premiere events won by 3 protoss (2 finals being PvP). Warer's player pool was also really strong, but whether or not you want to include it is subjective.
I'm not sure if I have any place in a balance discussion as I haven't played SC2 at all in HOTS and I stopped before the BL/ Infestor era. I've been purely a person watching pro matches and keeping tabs on tournaments as I've found the game far more enjoyable to watch then to play. What I can say is that it is incredibly boring to watch a match up where you can pick the winner of that match up with even 55% accuracy before the first mineral is mined just by what race they play.
I will fully admit that during the 1/1/1 era I didn't fully understand balance at that time and I thought that the disproportionately high number of Terran wins during this period was because of a higher overall skill cap. Because Nestea was also capable of dominating GSL's as well. Looking back at it now with some perspective it is easier for me to say that Terran was overpowered back in those days; the game was just to new for me to know it definitively.
Flash forward to Broodlord/infestor this was the period in time where I stopped effectively watching anything but finals in every tournament because the winner was again almost certainly a forgone conclusion at this point. The game seemed incredibly unfair to the other 2 races. And I think the numbers reflect this overall trend in viewership during this era. People simply stopped paying attention to SC2 tournaments, I don't know the actual % drop in viewership off the top of my head just that the general consensus is that the numbers went down noticeably. Now to this Era of protoss dominance, it is the same thing with the other 2 races Era's as they were, boring to watch when you can feel that one person has an advantage over the other.
I am going to now address the argument of "But _______ is doing just fine so there is no imbalance just play like _______" During the first Era of Terran dominance, Fruitdealer, MC, and Nestea were all able to win a championship, with Nestea repeating that feat many times. Using that logic the game was balanced back then and shouldn't have been changed, I mean you could just play like Nestea and win right? Move onto the Broodlord Infestor era Taeja was able to win quite abit so using that logic the game was balanced, we could all just play like Teaja right? Now to our current era, Maru and Polt are doing quite well so the game is balanced we all just need to play like Maru and polt. The argument itself is flawed by its own inherent logic. It doesn't allow for statistical outliers that are not representative of the actual core facts. You balance the game around the professional level and you lump all the pro's in together. Just because Taeja was crying foul about the balance of the game back then when he was winning doesn't mean he was wrong. And just because Idra wasn't able to put up that many impressive results during the Broodlord infestor Era as a Zerg doesn't mean he was right in saying that Zerg was balanced. To be fair to balance you have to ignore those players who are performing outside of the curve . I already know what people are going to say to that statement so I'll address that too. If you balance the game ignoring the statistical outliers and that means that Maru and Polt go onto crush their protoss opponents with winrates reflecting 70-80% respectively where as the winrates for other TvP's bounce back and forth between 49.5%-50.5% that is the definition of balance. When you step outside that 1% even stretching to 1.5%-2% win loss margin fluctuating that is when you have an imbalance, whether it is perceived as acceptable or unacceptable is a matter of opinion. What is not a matter of opinion is when it is skewed 3-4-5% for one race in general as it is or was for protoss before this balance patch. I refuse to believe the game is balanced based upon the results of 1 or 2 players. If you want to make that argument I again refer you to Nestea, MC, Fruitdealer, and Taeja during those other Era's. The moment you realize why you dismiss my argument for those Era's being balanced by that logic is the moment when you should realize why I dismiss your argument for the pre-patch state of balance.
The final point I wish to address is the revenge mentality that seems to permeate balance discussions. Just because you played the statistically weakest race at a moment in time when the balance was not in your favor does not entitle you to carte blanche when arguing the current balance of a game. The moment players learn to let go of past grudges about the injustice of balance back then is the moment we can all move forward with meaningful discussion about the state of balance right now. Infact the very moment a person declares, "I played X race way back when X was the statistically the worst race in the game" is the moment I stop reading the rest of their argument because that has no bearing at all in the present where that is not representative of the current game meta. Further if you think that because you played the worst race and ate a bunch of losses and the frustration of the era that you are somehow owed X amount of won games / inflicted frustration as reparation payments for early frustration then I think you need to take a closer look at where your mentality lies at this current moment in the game. It doesn't do anyone any good to hold onto those things, they are to be disguarded if you wish to move forward.
Finally as a pure viewer of this game, who has nothing currently invested financially other then the few subs I have, I don't care one way or another who is winning or losing. (Actually I do mainly because I find Zerg to be icky as a race but that's neither here nor there.) What I do care about as a viewer is good games, and to have good games you need to have atleast on paper a fair match up, balanced maps, and balance between the races. I am not sure if you can do this or achieve this in a 3 race game atleast not in the way it has been being addressed. I think the only way you balance the 3 races is to eliminate the odd man out so to speak in the balance equation. Ie. if ZVT is imbalanced you adjust that match up while leaving the ZVP match up alone. The only way to do that though is to implement match up scripting. The computer picks up that you are playing Zerg your opponent is Terran and the ZVT balance script runs. You play ZVP and a different script runs to balance that match up. Repeat for every race, from an actual coding perspective I am not sure if that is realistically possible.
On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote: I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
The more you are posting, the more you are getting ridiculous. So once again, could you please keep your promises and stop spamming this thread with utterly biased nonsense? Could you?? Please???
On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote: I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
Top notch in their past achievements, yes. But if you look at their current from, the Zergs and the Protosses are just as good.
For EU, T has Mvp, MMA, jjakji, ForGG. P has MC, Genius, San, Stardust.
For AM, T has Bomber, Taeja, Polt, Heart. P has HerO, Oz, Alicia, Arthur and Crank.
On March 09 2014 04:53 Chaggi wrote: Everyone here is biased in some way or another. That's partially why we all know each other and meet each other in the threads. My problem has, and always will be that DinoMight never provides any evidence, while TheDwf does. Back up what you say with specific games from pros, and I know I would look at your opinions more favorably.
Sounds reasonable. Although I did give a lot of pro game examples yesterday. But I haven't always.
On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote: I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
Top notch in their past achievements, yes. But if you look at their current from, the Zergs and the Protosses are just as good.
For EU, T has Mvp, MMA, jjakji, ForGG. P has MC, Genius, San, Stardust.
For AM, T has Bomber, Taeja, Polt, Heart. P has HerO, Oz, Alicia, Arthur and Crank.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote: [quote]
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
terran nerfs not even close to what protoss has.....AND protoss players dealt with it for much much longer.
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote: [quote]
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
terran nerfs not even close to what protoss has.....AND protoss players dealt with it for much much longer.
So what? seriously just because protoss players dealt with the imbalance during an era longer doesn't make it right in this Era. that is the sort of backhanded vengeance based mentality that hurts the game more then it helps it. If there's something wrong with a match up it should be fixed as soon as possible not when the time of X imbalance matches the total time Y imbalance was going on.
Wow this thread makes zero sense. There are like 5 debates in motion, and people are jumping from one to the other as if it's a way to argue. What do you want to talk about? I'm pretty sure the only interesting question is the state of things postpatch. It looks like some people are arguing protoss wasn't overpowered prepatch, which hurts my brain. But it looks like since postpatch doesn't have a ton of data yet, people are summoning data from the past in order to not have empty posts. It doesn't work like that...
Everyone is so butthurt in this thread and very few people are looking at this objectively. The patch will most likely fix a lot of the imbalances within the month imo. The nerfs to protoss were something that I really wanted to happen(i main toss) and they make a ton of sense considering forcefield and blink design and how much potential the msc range lent to it. What I don't agree with is the hydra buff because we don't know if the nerfs were enough by themselves and it could be more of an issue about the maps at this point, which should be the first to change because it limits so many things in the future. I do admit I'm butthurt about this though instead of claiming my opinion is the right one. This comes from my hatred of a unit countering everything until colossus come out. But that's a personal thing and not something that belongs in a balance debate.
tldr: stfu and stop being so biased, or admit that you are and it's fine
I agree, as long as de MsC moves at current speed next to the Nexi on Protoss base. As lore, they could say that's because it needs a huge amount of power, so it needs a Nexus nearby to "fuel" it.
Or... Just use a pool of maps that don't favor blink builds so much. Much simpler.
Honestly (despair speaking here), which maps don't support Blink? Considering that terran scouting in the early game depends on the same architecture (but with more restrictions) than blink, how do you change the maps such that you don't also gimp terran?
On March 16 2014 07:09 vthree wrote: Looks like more needs to be done about blink. Either the units or the maps...
Yeah maps need to be looked at carefully. Yeonsu in particular needs to be removed imo.
well yeah, the biggest problem with balance at the moment could be that with the changes to WCS this year we will have these same maps for the rest of the season. I hope Blizzard thinks again about keeping the same maps for the whole season as these longer seasons mean that we have to deal with the same terrible maps for way too long. Also they should be testing maps for the next season already right now so we don't have to deal with something like Daedalus again (untested map thrown into the pool that we have to play on for 4 months...)