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On February 26 2014 05:45 DinoMight wrote:
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage.
I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
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A good solid patch, the crazy stuff was left at the door. The changes are probably significant enough to warrant a reset of the meta, so we can evaluate the results in a month or two.
Yet,even if this works beyond expectations, it will take a long time for terran to repopulate tourneys and the ladder.
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On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote:
This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
I can understand that some people are upset with Blizzard at times, but overall, I agree that the anit-Blizz attitude here is mostly unwarranted. A lot of people TL.net in general really like complaining, and they've managed to create a culture where hating on Blizzard and Starcraft II is the cool thing to do for all the radical hip kidz on the block, yao. A bit sad IMO, since this is supposed to be the heart of the Starcraft II community, and a lot of people here think it's cool not to like Starcraft II.
On topic: I love the patch. Even as a Terran, I'm very happy they didn't nerf the blink cooldown. Mines may be slightly too strong, but the idea of buffing them vs Protoss is great.
So thanks, blizz. 
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I feel like the +shields damage to widow mines was unnecessary, but I guess Blizzard disagrees with me. I'm kind of curious what they end up proposing for the future swarm host changes.
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On February 26 2014 05:55 Ghanburighan wrote:
A good solid patch, the crazy stuff was left at the door. The changes are probably significant enough to warrant a reset of the meta, so we can evaluate the results in a month or two.
Yet,even if this works beyond expectations, it will take a long time for terran to repopulate tourneys and the ladder.
Heh, I'm curious as to whether the crazy stuff was put in to 'testing' so they could put in the rest without the community going WTF-NERFSAUCE as badly. I mean, I'm pretty sure everyone that saw "blink CD to 15" went "ahhhhh.... no" including Terrans
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On February 26 2014 05:58 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:32 B-rye88 wrote:
This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be. I can understand that some people are upset with Blizzard at times, but overall, I agree that the anit-Blizz attitude here is mostly unwarranted. A lot of people TL.net in general really like complaining, and they've managed to create a culture where hating on Blizzard and Starcraft II is the cool thing to do for all the radical hip kidz on the block, yao. A bit sad IMO, since this is supposed to be the heart of the Starcraft II community, and a lot of people here think it's cool not to like Starcraft II. On topic: I love the patch. Even as a Terran, I'm very happy they didn't nerf the blink cooldown. Mines may be slightly too strong, but the idea of buffing them vs Protoss is great. So thanks, blizz.
It's honestly not just SC2 fans. There's this weird trend of having a very vocal minority in every game community that does almost nothing but hate on the people who make the game they seemingly play a lot...it's very odd.
On February 26 2014 05:59 B-rye88 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:55 Ghanburighan wrote:
A good solid patch, the crazy stuff was left at the door. The changes are probably significant enough to warrant a reset of the meta, so we can evaluate the results in a month or two.
Yet,even if this works beyond expectations, it will take a long time for terran to repopulate tourneys and the ladder. Heh, I'm curious as to whether the crazy stuff was put in to 'testing' so they could put in the rest without the community going WTF-NERFSAUCE as badly. I mean, I'm pretty sure everyone that saw "blink CD to 15" went "ahhhhh.... no" including Terrans
I wouldn't be completely surprised if that wasn't at least some of the motivation. Pretty common bargaining tactic after all 
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@ ACrow u want to tell me now that toss was unstable but terran wasnt? lol
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On February 26 2014 05:48 Dapper_Cad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks. If I were you I would check your math again MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%. We might be talking area, in which case it shrunk from 154 units to 64 units, that is it's seeing 60% less of the terrain benieth it. However this isn't that useful a way of thinking about it because, for the most acute impact of vision, it isn't general map seeing that is useful. When you have an army beneath it the job the MSC does is seeing in that-one-particular direction that you want to see, the direction you think his army is in. There's no doubt there's been a 60% reduction in something, but it's more the scouting utility the MSC has on it's own I think. I've never seen a unit without a circular vision range, but it might be interesting to see.
Not really, not at all imo. How many times have ppl spotted stuff in the corner of their vision? Based on the general approach of a mothership core for scouting, at least 270 degrees of the circle vision will be definitely used for scouting. When controlling army, this is also the same...
We can get as math-y as we want, but I say we just all agree that it's a massive (albeit needed) nerf : P
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Maybe with the WM change Terran will have more success with mech v protoss. I mean Tank / Mine / Hellion is almost the identical mid-game army Terran used vs toss in BW.
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On February 26 2014 05:52 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:45 DinoMight wrote:
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup. Show nested quote +
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage. I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there. Show nested quote +
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage. Show nested quote +
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.)
I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf.
Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade?
Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
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In BW, observers had a vision range upgrade. It shouldn't have been removed. It's more needed than ever. Whether it's an upgrade or/and the observer starts with more vision, that's all I want. Nerf everything. Just let me be able to see my impending death coming. Is that too much to ask for? I think the tempest buff was a joke. If a zerg is turtling at all, you know what would really help tempests? Actually being able to see the swarm hosts.
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On February 26 2014 06:03 playa wrote:
In BW, observers had a vision range upgrade. It shouldn't have been removed. It's more needed than ever. Whether it's an upgrade or/and the observer starts with more vision, that's all I want. Nerf everything. Just let me be able to see my impending death coming. Is that too much to ask for? I think the tempest buff was a joke. If a zerg is turtling at all, you know what would really help tempests? Actually being able to see the swarm hosts.
Oh my god this. I JUST posted this actually. Observer sight range upgrade would fix so many things and the MsC nerf would be acceptable late game I think.
You basically need Oracles in order to use Tempests against anyone who has any idea what they're doing. Change revelation so that it catches burrowed units that you had vision on and I'll be very very happy. 9 range tempests are worthless.
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On February 26 2014 06:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:52 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:45 DinoMight wrote:
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage. I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.) I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf. Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade? Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D
I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X
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Thank god for the mothership core nerf. That was the one patch that reallllly needed to go through
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On February 26 2014 06:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 06:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 26 2014 05:52 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:45 DinoMight wrote:
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage. I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.) I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf. Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade? Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X
ROFL. I go robo for all my macro games. Every SG build I have is a 2 base allin. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
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So time to bring back 1-1-1?
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On February 26 2014 05:34 chillaful wrote:
jesus Blizzard when do u finally understand that the msc completly destroyed hots, if u want to minimize the damage the games took, u must at least remove the ability of the msc to attack ground units and u have to think about nerfing the nexuscanon, not only the duration but also the range. im really holding back my thoughts about the blizzard-sc2 balance employee and i say that VERY nicely!
the widowmine change can at least make the mid-lategame more interesting but the nerf of the msc-vision is by far not enough. the reason why bs-allins are imba are not rly the maps its just the msc, in wol it was much more possible to deal with bs allins. all abilities of early agression from terran like proxy marodeur rushes, marodeur helion pushes, 2 rax etc. are not possible anymore. In Wol, without the msc terran hat at least 10 effective openings, but because of the msc now we have 3 (reaper expand into 3 rax, cc first, and reaper expand into widowmine).
a joke!
Oh, I see,it's OK as long as the Terran is the one with 10 different openings. If it's a Protoss, it's not fair and must be nerfed.
Come on, buddy, get real. Wings of Terran era ended a long time ago and isn't coming back.
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On February 26 2014 06:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 06:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 06:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 26 2014 05:52 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:45 DinoMight wrote:
Vs. Zerg it's very helpful to judge where the army is and if he's trying to surround you. You can tell whether you can move into a position and forcefield it off or whether his army is too close. You can also see Vipers coming from 14 range away and get ready to feedback them. Or you can tell if you can't win a fight and start to retreat since the Zerg army is faster than you.
Well, with immortal and zealot based early all ins I think not always being able to know where Zerg army as easily as you can now is a good thing. Makes those kinds of plays more risky. (Looking real hard at you, MANZENITH Zealot pressure build) As for later game Viper spotting and such, this might encourage/force more Oracle Revelation usage which adds another small layer to the matchup.
Versus Protoss MsC gives some spotting for your Tempests when going up vs. a Colossus based army. It also allows you to position your Colossus army well when facing Chargelot/Archon so you don't get surrounded. It also helps you scout your opponent early game between the time his 1st Stalker comes out and the time he's chosen his tech path, which Probes can't do.
Interesting point, I didn't think about Tempests. Again, though, these kind of things are what I hope encourage more Oracle use, or even more proactive Observer usage. I definitely think that the biggest PvP result of this change is the early game scouting. Agree with you, there.
Vs. Terran, it gives crucial sight range to your army. It really helps with identifying where the ghosts are at, moving your obs into position, and getting the feedbacks off. It also helps with which direction you need to spread your units in. If you spread in the wrong direction, the Terran can flank you and fight 20% of your army with his entire army.
Again, the ability for Cyber Core tech unit to be able to spot like this is questionably overpowered, and again this is another situation where I would like to see more Oracle usage.
TLDR I'm not saying Protoss will never win again.. I'm just saying its significant and should not be dismissed.
I 100% agree that the changes are absolutely significant and will do more than nerf blink all ins. I just think Protoss already has the tools to be able to deal with the new challenges. (Except for maybe the early game PvP scouting...that could make things really weird.) I agree that it would be nice to see more Revelation usage in the late game rather than Oracles being the cheese machines they are now. But things like 3 base Roach/Hydra/Viper allins become much harder to stop when on top of the Colossus + HT tech you also need a Stargate and Oracle... I think MsC vision could have been 10-11 and it would have been okay. 9 just seems like way too big of a nerf. Maybe if they're going to do 9 give us back the BW observer sight range upgrade? Honestly I think what this game needs the most is to just be left alone for long enough that players can adapt to the changes. These balance patches are coming so fast that it's impossible to tell whether or not they're needed or just knee-jerk reactions. Maybe 6 months from now there will be an unstopable Ghost/Widow Mine TvP allin directly resulting from all these patches! :D I can't even remember the last time I saw someone not open Stargate in PvZ that wasn't an allin. I would love Obs sight range though :X ROFL. I go robo for all my macro games. Every SG build I have is a 2 base allin. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
Ur so weird...Phoenix is just too good of a scout/harass unit early game plus discourages Muta shennanigans.
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Wtf?! Terrans has a 66% winrate in code S ro32, no way they should be buffed! More seriously, I was hoping some changed in ZvP as I don't like spectating it at all. Whatever, still a good patch I guess. I hope we see more polt like double army from terrans
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Patch very much needed, terrans are really weak nowadays.
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EPT
