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On February 26 2014 05:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:11 playa wrote:On February 26 2014 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote:
Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now. Observers are worthless? Wut? Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke. Um...ok. Everyone is entitled to their really really wrong opinions, I guess. Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:08 aZealot wrote:
14 - 9 seems a bit much. I was anticipating 14 - 11 consistent with air units. But, I think, this really is to finally put a strong nerf on Blink all-ins. I find this regrettable - at least because I dislike that kind of inconsistency in the game.
I think it's ok to have less than other air units considering how early in the game this particular flying unit comes out, on top of all its other utility.
Enlighten me to when an observer is useful outside of early game p vs z, when in the attack path. On a map with dead space where you couldn't make a pylon? I mean, jesus christ. You still have to make a cannon at your natural against dts when you have an observer because if anyone comes and breathes on your observer, it's history. It's beyond ridiculous how bad it is for its gas cost. It's HORRIBLE.
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On February 26 2014 05:11 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote:
Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now. Observers are worthless? Wut? Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
using the follow command on armies isn't the only purpose observers serve... they're critical for defending drops in pvt, helpful against mutas in pvz, and always quite valuable for general scouting and map awareness. yeah i guess good players will usually see them and snipe them with marines (not sure about calling people "bad" based on their eyesight...), but you can micro observers like any other scouting unit if you multitask well. seems like a perfectly fine and sensible unit to me. if anything, i think it might be cute if they had a medivac boost style ability, or if the speed upgrade came built in, but they're a pretty fine unit. honestly haven't heard anyone complain about observers before
i've seen professional players go up to 5-10 observers in a game, do you really know something they don't?
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Both Widow Mine and Hydralisk buff seem to come out of the blue similar to the roach burrow upgrade and banshee cloak upgrade change. They are the kind of changes I would like to see more frequently to encourage different playstyles, however, neither of them address the issues people have been complaining about.
I would have propably gone from 14 to 10 with the MSC vision range to go along with phoenix, void ray and oracle.
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On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
Yeah, they are definitely big changes (hydra a bit less so, imo). People who actually know what they are talking about realize this, I think 
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On February 26 2014 05:16 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:14 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:11 playa wrote:On February 26 2014 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote:
Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now. Observers are worthless? Wut? Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke. Um...ok. Everyone is entitled to their really really wrong opinions, I guess. On February 26 2014 05:08 aZealot wrote:
14 - 9 seems a bit much. I was anticipating 14 - 11 consistent with air units. But, I think, this really is to finally put a strong nerf on Blink all-ins. I find this regrettable - at least because I dislike that kind of inconsistency in the game.
I think it's ok to have less than other air units considering how early in the game this particular flying unit comes out, on top of all its other utility. Enlighten me to when an observer is useful outside of early game p vs z, when in the attack path. On a map with dead space where you couldn't make a pylon? I mean, jesus christ. You still have to make a cannon at your natural against dts when you have an observer because if anyone comes and breathes on your observer, it's history. It's beyond ridiculous how bad it is for its gas cost. It's HORRIBLE.
You're pretty clearly not willing to listen to another viewpoint on this so I'm not going to bother. There are plenty of reasons Observers are amazing scouting tools. I think you have been watching different pro matches than I have...
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On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
If I were you I would check your math again 
MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
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On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks.
lol the reason a lot more people are going tanks is because the widowmine was nerfed really hard at the same time.
But yeah these changes are pretty impactful and in a good way I think
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On February 26 2014 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks. If I were you I would check your math again MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
Well, when you calculate the area of the vision circle, it's about 41% of it's previous vision coverage, so he's actually right.
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On February 26 2014 05:11 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote:
Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now. Observers are worthless? Wut? Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
What in the actual fuck? A perma cloaked detector is bad? Did I wake up in the twilight zone?
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On February 26 2014 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks. If I were you I would check your math again MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
Since the total vision is in a circle, you need to use the radius squared.
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On February 26 2014 05:23 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks. If I were you I would check your math again MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%. Well, when you calculate the area of the vision circle, it's about 41% of it's previous vision coverage, so he's actually right.
Ho yes the actual area you are correct then! Sorry my bad I was just using the 9 and 14 numbers.
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On February 26 2014 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks. If I were you I would check your math again MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%.
81pi/196pi is ~ 40% of the vision
granted prior you could almost see the the entire screen wherever the msc was, it only looks prominent because we took that the norm when ideally it should have never been.
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On February 26 2014 05:23 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:21 b0ub0u wrote:On February 26 2014 05:16 DinoMight wrote:
I don't think people understand. 14 range to 9 range is a 60% nerf. The mothership core will have 40% of the vision it has now. That's a huge nerf.
Widow mine splash will do 100% more damage. How is this "not significant?"
I legitimately don't understand anyone saying this won't make a difference. They buffed tank attack speed 10% and we can all see the impact.. A LOT more people going Tanks. If I were you I would check your math again MSC will have 64% of the vision it had before. It lost 36%. Well, when you calculate the area of the vision circle, it's about 41% of it's previous vision coverage, so he's actually right.
Yeah, because terrans hiding their army outside their base to an blink all-in from behind is a common thing ^^
Maybe it's 60% less area but really: Protoss only uses the MSC to scout forward, not scout anything behind
EDIT:
ALSO the MSC is really only necessary in PvP i don't feel like ANY Protoss is allowed to complain about ANYTHING which belongs to the MSC I mean wtf, how on earth did you survive in WoL?!
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It's not really a 60% nerf, though-- most of the directional usefulness of the vision was pretty linear. It's rare that the mothership core was used for its full 360* field of vision.
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On February 26 2014 05:16 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:11 playa wrote:On February 26 2014 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote:
Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now. Observers are worthless? Wut? Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke. using the follow command on armies isn't the only purpose observers serve... they're critical for defending drops in pvt, helpful against mutas in pvz, and always quite valuable for general scouting and map awareness. yeah i guess good players will usually see them and snipe them with marines (not sure about calling people "bad" based on their eyesight...), but you can micro observers like any other scouting unit if you multitask well. seems like a perfectly fine and sensible unit to me. if anything, i think it might be cute if they had a medivac boost style ability, or if the speed upgrade came built in, but they're a pretty fine unit. honestly haven't heard anyone complain about observers before i've seen professional players go up to 5-10 observers in a game, do you really know something they don't?
Who are these players? Rain and his clones? Given that using observers largely relies on your opponent being blind (unless it's over dead space), it is in no way critical to stopping drops, when you could make pylons and have so much more gas and build time of the robo going towards units that actually kill things, and might not make you have to play so defensively in the first place.
People I play against have an overseer with their mutas. So, it only helps out once. Revelation is amazing against mutas. Maybe you can work that into your build, since, as long as you can say it helped, it must be worth it.
I would like to see the mothership cores vision (currently) go to the observer. It's the least they could do for the observer. I would trade the removal of blink for that, any day. I'd love for the observer to not be the worst unit. The stalker is already bad, so I don't care.
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On February 26 2014 05:11 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 05:07 playa wrote:
Personally, I would have traded the removal of blink... to keep the current vision on mothership core. Observers are worthless. It's going to be much harder to have good engagements now. Observers are worthless? Wut? Most useless unit in the game besides the BC. You have to be so freaking bad to not be able to spot an observer. And once you do spot it, what unit dies faster in the game than an observer? Nothing is even close. Relying on observers to help you in battles is about as great of an idea as pulling your probes to help out. They still offer horrendous vision when dealing with swarm hosts. I would take a 25/75 changeling for toss over that joke.
Good god, worst unit in the game? Trade for blink? What in the...?!
I love Observers. One of the best units in the game.
That said, an upgrade to Observer vision to 14 would be pretty darned cool.
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It's not really a 60% nerf, though-- most of the directional usefulness of the vision was pretty linear. It's rare that the mothership core was used for its full 360* field of vision.
The vision of the Core is actually so helpful, being able to see Zerg flanks ahead of time, when Forcefield timing is such a crucial factor. Because of the Mothership Core Protoss simply had better vision than the army of Zerg or Terran.
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This is likely impacted by me being so new to the scene, but I really don't get all the hacking on blizzard. This is about as top-notch responsive and reasonable as you can expect another human / group of humans to be.
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On February 26 2014 05:27 RampancyTW wrote:
It's not really a 60% nerf, though-- most of the directional usefulness of the vision was pretty linear. It's rare that the mothership core was used for its full 360* field of vision.
Vision range, not vision surface area.
Still, let the Protoss whine begin! Our time has come! Let the totally unreasonable theory crafting about a patch we have not played work it's magic!
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EPT
