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Even if you got 1 banshee first you'll always had a raven in time. Remember how long it took to get DT back in the days ?
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Opening with DTs in WoL = no detection = first Cloak Banshee wins while wall holds DTs...
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Everyone here is biased in some way or another. That's partially why we all know each other and meet each other in the threads. My problem has, and always will be that DinoMight never provides any evidence, while TheDwf does. Back up what you say with specific games from pros, and I know I would look at your opinions more favorably.
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On March 08 2014 05:44 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
[quote]
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game. Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
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On March 09 2014 05:08 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:44 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:
[quote]
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game. Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ? ....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong
And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ?
Your fact is wrong.
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On March 09 2014 04:53 Chaggi wrote:
Everyone here is biased in some way or another. That's partially why we all know each other and meet each other in the threads. My problem has, and always will be that DinoMight never provides any evidence, while TheDwf does. Back up what you say with specific games from pros, and I know I would look at your opinions more favorably.
Sounds reasonable. Although I did give a lot of pro game examples yesterday. But I haven't always.
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On March 09 2014 05:11 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 05:08 SuperYo1000 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:44 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
[quote]
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted
still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game. Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ? ....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
This is the only point I'm arguing.
Terrans looked broken at release, but since no one really knew how to play, I reserved judgment. Then Morrow vs Idra happened. When the Queen range buff got implemented, I express doubts but gave it time before bringing out the complaints. Then BL/Infestor became an unstoppable force for all matchups. The Protoss domination is much harder to pinpoint on one single composition, but I don't understand how you can argue "everything's fine" when representation and results prove otherwise.
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On March 09 2014 05:21 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 05:11 Faust852 wrote:On March 09 2014 05:08 SuperYo1000 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:44 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
[quote]
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted
still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game. Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ? ....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong. This is the only point I'm arguing. Terrans looked broken at release, but since no one really knew how to play, I reserved judgment. Then Morrow vs Idra happened. When the Queen range buff got implemented, I express doubts but gave it time before bringing out the complaints. Then BL/Infestor became an unstoppable force for all matchups. The Protoss domination is much harder to pinpoint on one single composition, but I don't understand how you can argue "everything's fine" when representation and results prove otherwise.
its not as bad as it looked in gsl at the ro32.
If soulkey hadn't flunked his group we would have 1 T, 3Z, 4P, whitch isn't good but not too bad either.
Most of the other tournaments have a pretty good distribution as far as I have seen, even though it still looks slightly P favoured.
Keep in mind that the patch wasn't released at that time.
wcs america had 12P 11T 9Z.
wcs europe had 13P 8T 7Z.
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I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
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On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote:
I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
Only Bomber and jjakji switched to another region from the previous season, and Hack and Ryung even returned to Korea. The Terran representation in Code S is so low this season because Protoss went 31-8 vs Terran in Code A.
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On March 09 2014 06:05 absinthfee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 05:21 ssxsilver wrote:On March 09 2014 05:11 Faust852 wrote:On March 09 2014 05:08 SuperYo1000 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:44 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:
[quote]
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game. Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ? ....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong. This is the only point I'm arguing. Terrans looked broken at release, but since no one really knew how to play, I reserved judgment. Then Morrow vs Idra happened. When the Queen range buff got implemented, I express doubts but gave it time before bringing out the complaints. Then BL/Infestor became an unstoppable force for all matchups. The Protoss domination is much harder to pinpoint on one single composition, but I don't understand how you can argue "everything's fine" when representation and results prove otherwise. its not as bad as it looked in gsl at the ro32. If soulkey hadn't flunked his group we would have 1 T, 3Z, 4P, whitch isn't good but not too bad either. Most of the other tournaments have a pretty good distribution as far as I have seen, even though it still looks slightly P favoured. Keep in mind that the patch wasn't released at that time. wcs america had 12P 11T 9Z. wcs europe had 13P 8T 7Z.
There's also the 3 premiere events won by 3 protoss (2 finals being PvP). Warer's player pool was also really strong, but whether or not you want to include it is subjective.
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I'm not sure if I have any place in a balance discussion as I haven't played SC2 at all in HOTS and I stopped before the BL/ Infestor era. I've been purely a person watching pro matches and keeping tabs on tournaments as I've found the game far more enjoyable to watch then to play. What I can say is that it is incredibly boring to watch a match up where you can pick the winner of that match up with even 55% accuracy before the first mineral is mined just by what race they play.
I will fully admit that during the 1/1/1 era I didn't fully understand balance at that time and I thought that the disproportionately high number of Terran wins during this period was because of a higher overall skill cap. Because Nestea was also capable of dominating GSL's as well. Looking back at it now with some perspective it is easier for me to say that Terran was overpowered back in those days; the game was just to new for me to know it definitively.
Flash forward to Broodlord/infestor this was the period in time where I stopped effectively watching anything but finals in every tournament because the winner was again almost certainly a forgone conclusion at this point. The game seemed incredibly unfair to the other 2 races. And I think the numbers reflect this overall trend in viewership during this era. People simply stopped paying attention to SC2 tournaments, I don't know the actual % drop in viewership off the top of my head just that the general consensus is that the numbers went down noticeably. Now to this Era of protoss dominance, it is the same thing with the other 2 races Era's as they were, boring to watch when you can feel that one person has an advantage over the other.
I am going to now address the argument of "But _______ is doing just fine so there is no imbalance just play like _______" During the first Era of Terran dominance, Fruitdealer, MC, and Nestea were all able to win a championship, with Nestea repeating that feat many times. Using that logic the game was balanced back then and shouldn't have been changed, I mean you could just play like Nestea and win right? Move onto the Broodlord Infestor era Taeja was able to win quite abit so using that logic the game was balanced, we could all just play like Teaja right? Now to our current era, Maru and Polt are doing quite well so the game is balanced we all just need to play like Maru and polt. The argument itself is flawed by its own inherent logic. It doesn't allow for statistical outliers that are not representative of the actual core facts. You balance the game around the professional level and you lump all the pro's in together. Just because Taeja was crying foul about the balance of the game back then when he was winning doesn't mean he was wrong. And just because Idra wasn't able to put up that many impressive results during the Broodlord infestor Era as a Zerg doesn't mean he was right in saying that Zerg was balanced. To be fair to balance you have to ignore those players who are performing outside of the curve . I already know what people are going to say to that statement so I'll address that too. If you balance the game ignoring the statistical outliers and that means that Maru and Polt go onto crush their protoss opponents with winrates reflecting 70-80% respectively where as the winrates for other TvP's bounce back and forth between 49.5%-50.5% that is the definition of balance. When you step outside that 1% even stretching to 1.5%-2% win loss margin fluctuating that is when you have an imbalance, whether it is perceived as acceptable or unacceptable is a matter of opinion. What is not a matter of opinion is when it is skewed 3-4-5% for one race in general as it is or was for protoss before this balance patch. I refuse to believe the game is balanced based upon the results of 1 or 2 players. If you want to make that argument I again refer you to Nestea, MC, Fruitdealer, and Taeja during those other Era's. The moment you realize why you dismiss my argument for those Era's being balanced by that logic is the moment when you should realize why I dismiss your argument for the pre-patch state of balance.
The final point I wish to address is the revenge mentality that seems to permeate balance discussions. Just because you played the statistically weakest race at a moment in time when the balance was not in your favor does not entitle you to carte blanche when arguing the current balance of a game. The moment players learn to let go of past grudges about the injustice of balance back then is the moment we can all move forward with meaningful discussion about the state of balance right now. Infact the very moment a person declares, "I played X race way back when X was the statistically the worst race in the game" is the moment I stop reading the rest of their argument because that has no bearing at all in the present where that is not representative of the current game meta. Further if you think that because you played the worst race and ate a bunch of losses and the frustration of the era that you are somehow owed X amount of won games / inflicted frustration as reparation payments for early frustration then I think you need to take a closer look at where your mentality lies at this current moment in the game. It doesn't do anyone any good to hold onto those things, they are to be disguarded if you wish to move forward.
Finally as a pure viewer of this game, who has nothing currently invested financially other then the few subs I have, I don't care one way or another who is winning or losing. (Actually I do mainly because I find Zerg to be icky as a race but that's neither here nor there.) What I do care about as a viewer is good games, and to have good games you need to have atleast on paper a fair match up, balanced maps, and balance between the races. I am not sure if you can do this or achieve this in a 3 race game atleast not in the way it has been being addressed. I think the only way you balance the 3 races is to eliminate the odd man out so to speak in the balance equation. Ie. if ZVT is imbalanced you adjust that match up while leaving the ZVP match up alone. The only way to do that though is to implement match up scripting. The computer picks up that you are playing Zerg your opponent is Terran and the ZVT balance script runs. You play ZVP and a different script runs to balance that match up. Repeat for every race, from an actual coding perspective I am not sure if that is realistically possible.
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On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote:
I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
The more you are posting, the more you are getting ridiculous. So once again, could you please keep your promises and stop spamming this thread with utterly biased nonsense? Could you?? Please???
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On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote:
I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad.
Top notch in their past achievements, yes. But if you look at their current from, the Zergs and the Protosses are just as good.
For EU, T has Mvp, MMA, jjakji, ForGG. P has MC, Genius, San, Stardust.
For AM, T has Bomber, Taeja, Polt, Heart. P has HerO, Oz, Alicia, Arthur and Crank.
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On March 09 2014 05:20 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 04:53 Chaggi wrote:
Everyone here is biased in some way or another. That's partially why we all know each other and meet each other in the threads. My problem has, and always will be that DinoMight never provides any evidence, while TheDwf does. Back up what you say with specific games from pros, and I know I would look at your opinions more favorably. Sounds reasonable. Although I did give a lot of pro game examples yesterday. But I haven't always.
That's all I ask! :D
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On March 09 2014 11:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 06:51 DinoMight wrote:
I'd argue the reason the distribution looks so good in AM and EU and so bad in KR is because a lot of top notch Korean Terrans are playing abroad. Top notch in their past achievements, yes. But if you look at their current from, the Zergs and the Protosses are just as good. For EU, T has Mvp, MMA, jjakji, ForGG. P has MC, Genius, San, Stardust. For AM, T has Bomber, Taeja, Polt, Heart. P has HerO, Oz, Alicia, Arthur and Crank.
Why don't you include the Z players 
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On March 09 2014 05:11 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 05:08 SuperYo1000 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:44 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
[quote]
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted
still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game. Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ? ....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong.
terran nerfs not even close to what protoss has.....AND protoss players dealt with it for much much longer.
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On March 10 2014 03:40 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2014 05:11 Faust852 wrote:On March 09 2014 05:08 SuperYo1000 wrote:On March 08 2014 05:44 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:
[quote]
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted
still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game. Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ? ....GomTvT....there...your fact is wrong And the protoss' complains were justified, and terrans got nerfed, map were changed. Now that we got GomexPvP, there is no problem right ? Your fact is wrong. terran nerfs not even close to what protoss has.....AND protoss players dealt with it for much much longer.
So what? seriously just because protoss players dealt with the imbalance during an era longer doesn't make it right in this Era. that is the sort of backhanded vengeance based mentality that hurts the game more then it helps it. If there's something wrong with a match up it should be fixed as soon as possible not when the time of X imbalance matches the total time Y imbalance was going on.
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Wow this thread makes zero sense. There are like 5 debates in motion, and people are jumping from one to the other as if it's a way to argue. What do you want to talk about? I'm pretty sure the only interesting question is the state of things postpatch. It looks like some people are arguing protoss wasn't overpowered prepatch, which hurts my brain. But it looks like since postpatch doesn't have a ton of data yet, people are summoning data from the past in order to not have empty posts. It doesn't work like that...
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Everyone is so butthurt in this thread and very few people are looking at this objectively. The patch will most likely fix a lot of the imbalances within the month imo. The nerfs to protoss were something that I really wanted to happen(i main toss) and they make a ton of sense considering forcefield and blink design and how much potential the msc range lent to it. What I don't agree with is the hydra buff because we don't know if the nerfs were enough by themselves and it could be more of an issue about the maps at this point, which should be the first to change because it limits so many things in the future. I do admit I'm butthurt about this though instead of claiming my opinion is the right one. This comes from my hatred of a unit countering everything until colossus come out. But that's a personal thing and not something that belongs in a balance debate.
tldr: stfu and stop being so biased, or admit that you are and it's fine
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EPT
