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saintforsale
18 Posts
I dont understand you at all. The only "nerf" for Protoss was the vision chance of the MSC. The Balance test showmatches for one seemed to clearly indicate that opening Templar-Chargelot has become unviable against mines. Likewise my own tests with it (doesn´t say much though). The Templar style however evolved against SCV Pulls, which demolish Colossi openings which are also very weak against drops. So what do? | ||
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Nyarly
France1030 Posts
On February 26 2014 04:27 Aeromi wrote: Poll: Impressions on the widow mine change ? Approuve (859) Disapprove (269) Neutral (108) 1236 total votes Your vote: Impressions on the widow mine change ? Poll: Impressions on the Hydralisk attack change ? Approuve (616) Dispprouve (414) Neutral (158) 1188 total votes Your vote: Impressions on the Hydralisk attack change ? Poll: Impressions on the Mothership Core vision ? Approuve (979) Dispprouve (175) Neutral (41) 1195 total votes Your vote: Impressions on the Mothership Core vision ? Approuve, Disapprouve, i immeditely knew you were french :D | ||
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CreatorGX
United States121 Posts
I Approuve. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:11 forsooth wrote: Don't be absurd, ghosts, have the ability to counteract templar directly and quickly with snipe and EMP. They're not remotely analogous to ravens. No. Ghost have 2 purposes; Massive burst damage vs the main army Minimizing Storm Damage taken (taxing harrassment via nukes) Ravens have no synergy with the bio army whatsoever (slow/expensive/not expendable/expensive infrastructure/require support/vulnerable when moving over the map), they're just expensive Feedback targets (Undroppable Turrets; PDD which has no targets, HSM which requires toss to really pay no attention AT ALL). Whereas the Ghost is at least very threatening to the Protoss. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:18 saintforsale wrote: The Balance test showmatches for one seemed to clearly indicate that opening Templar-Chargelot has become unviable against mines. Likewise my own tests with it (doesn´t say much though). The Templar style however evolved against SCV Pulls, which demolish Colossi openings which are also very weak against drops. So what do? Give it time and maybe people figure the timings out again? You can't call up the showmatches for anything other than showcasing the adjustments; nobody has played with them enough to determine if something now is OP. | ||
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sandman1678
10 Posts
On February 26 2014 06:52 Lunareste wrote: I don't think Protoss has been struggling since the MSC got "figured out." If you want to talk about discrepancy in win percentages, talk about how Protoss has the advantage anytime outside of that 10 minute timing attack window, which naturally becomes weaker over time as players learn to defend better.. It isn't just a win percentage issue, either, it's the fact that Protoss has great advantages over Terran throughout the entire game except for a 2 minute window where Terran can drop and Protoss doesn't have enough tier 3 units to defend without taking losses. They do have so many other tools, though, like instant warp ins, cheap defensive structures and Photon Overcharge. A couple of the absolute best Terran players can capitalize on engagements against Protoss pros sometimes, but most of the time though, and ladder data actually does back this up, Protoss is destroying Terran at every level of the game except for Bronze Also...you're kinda cheeky for a new guy. 1. I didn't say they were struggling late in the season just at the begging and once they figured out how to use the MC they got better. However, before the MC timing attacks were a huge issure. 2. Protoss having an advantage outside of 10min is a HUGE opinion statement NO WHERE NEAR a fact. Win percentage is a fact personal perceived advantageous are not. 3. Protoss cheap defenses structures? 150m for a photon cannon makes it the most expensive in the game. Furthermore, it has a slow rate of attack and only does 20dmg. The only advantage it has is it can shoot both air and ground. In reality Terran have the cheapest defense structures in bunkers and Turrets, which a bunker can be salvaged for a refund and turrets are arguably the best anti-air structure in the game. 4. As for Protoss's perceived advantageous: Mech actually has the highest damage out put of any army while Bio is far more mobile when used right than any Terran army. Furthermore as it comes down to options Protoss has only 1 real army option its just they have 2 ways of getting to the end game composition, you either open templar or colossi. However, either of these left without the other for to long can be hard countered. Lasty alot of Terran players try and go toe to toe with a end game protoss army and lose because they are using their army incorrectly. The terrans late game army strength is the ablity to defend a location with a Planetary along with a few units and repair while being out on the map dropping another area while pushing into another. Basically forcing the Protoss to make a choice base race a terran or fall back and try to chase down a faster army. 5.Again what happens to you, me, or any other on the ladder does not factor into balance we are not good enough or skilled enough which is why we lose. We forget that their is no fail proof strategy, that we need to scout and also understand what were scouting, we continuously underestimate dismiss how severe small micro mistakes can be in a battle, and will try and make unit compositions work that shouldn't or require more skill than we possess to make work work. | ||
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e.fenny
Canada4 Posts
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Pontius Pirate
United States1557 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:03 Lunareste wrote: I think the answer is more subtle than that: if Terran can pressure Protoss more in the early and mid game to force less greed (which is why Photon Overcharge is overpowered, Protoss doesn't need more than a couple of units while they gaining huge advantages in tech, and then gateway explosion to meatshield their tech units) the Protoss cannot go into the midgame with 2-3 tech paths completed coupled with huge upgrades. It almost sounds like warp gates themselves are what need to be changed, at least in the longterm. If Protoss players were forced to continuously produce units in order to have a large army later in the game, they wouldn't be able to rely on such an all-or-nothing style of holding attacks while expanding. I'm all for racial asymmetry, but maybe warp gates shouldn't have both the strategic advantage over gateways as well as the macro advantage. Maybe there should be a trade-off in production speed vs the ability to warp in units anywhere on the map. | ||
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saintforsale
18 Posts
You can't call up the showmatches for anything other than showcasing the adjustments; nobody has played with them enough to determine if something now is OP. I´m not whining here, just curious because i´m at loss to how to open solidly after the patch, TL seemed a good place to ask. | ||
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:18 saintforsale wrote: The Balance test showmatches for one seemed to clearly indicate that opening Templar-Chargelot has become unviable against mines. Likewise my own tests with it (doesn´t say much though). The Templar style however evolved against SCV Pulls, which demolish Colossi openings which are also very weak against drops. So what do? Well a single bo7 shouldnt indicate anything. but aside from that, it will need a month or two atleast to find a correct playstyle against it. Some months ago WMs were incredible good vs Zergs untill they learned to detonate them with small ammounts of unit. Protoss will have to do the same and not charge everything in at once. Im not saying it wont be broken or anything but atleast give some of the top players time to figure out how its going to play out. Templar opening might struggle but then again maybe it only makes games more exciting? I'll be interesting to see how it works out edit: yay 2222 posts ^^ I cant tell you the "right" playstyle btw. Its always problematic after a patch because most of us arent good enough to find a strong and optimized build on their own. Just remember: the terrans will have to create new builds aswell to add WMs effectivly and in bigger numbers | ||
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discator
Germany639 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
btw, just asking cause im snot sure: how exactly does the widow mine splash damage affect immortal shields? I would guess that would be pretty interesting for mech players. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:27 saintforsale wrote: I´m not whining here, just curious because i´m at loss to how to open solidly after the patch, TL seemed a good place to ask. So, let me try to help you. The mine buff will accomplish 2 things: - More Mine Drops - Mines vs Zealot/Archon/Templar armies. As for the first, we've known how to handle that for about a year now, it's not hard to scout, so this shouldn't pose a problem. As for the second, this is where things get interesting. Here, there's the need for detection as well as splitting your army. Detection can be done by Observers (which have to get to the frontline and become endangered by scan+marine) or Oracles, which have larger detection range and as such can stay back further, but cost more control. So now we know, in our templar opening, we must incorporate either a Robotics Bay or a Stargate and keep the Oracle alive. Both of these have builds set in place, but will they have to be adapted? Probably. As for the splitting/baiting; Protoss units tend to be in lower numbers, so you'll need to adapt here. Either flank more aggressively, abuse Blink stalkers to pick of forward mines safely (akin to Mutalisk + Overseer), and perhaps Hallucination can offer help? (funny sidenote; Carriers bait Mines into the opposing army like champs :D) Conclusion; things may change, but there's already builds that include failsafes against Mine play. Be sure to keep their numbers low and not to engage in chokes! | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:33 Yorbon wrote: Good changes. I felt that if there were changes to be made, these were the most reasonable atm. btw, just asking cause im snot sure: how exactly does the widow mine splash damage affect immortal shields? I would guess that would be pretty interesting for mech players. It's a spell, technically, so it does full damage. On February 26 2014 07:34 SC2Toastie wrote: (funny sidenote; Carriers bait Mines into the opposing army like champs :D) Somebody call White-Ra. We need some sort of proxy 2 base Carrier PvT build. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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AnonymousSC2
United States189 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:27 saintforsale wrote: I´m not whining here, just curious because i´m at loss to how to open solidly after the patch, TL seemed a good place to ask. Why do you think things changed drastically that "none of your openers are solid" anymore? Did you just go blink all in every game? All of your openers are fine. Try them and anwer your own question. | ||
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Josh_Video
Canada798 Posts
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pmp10
3327 Posts
TvP will stay broken and they have no idea what to do with swarmhosts. At least they left tempests alone. Guess we need even more time for something to move. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:41 AnonymousSC2 wrote: Why do you think things changed drastically that "none of your openers are solid" anymore? Did you just go blink all in every game? All of your openers are fine. Try them and anwer your own question. Here we go again. MsC is not just a blink allin machine. It's actually quite useful outside that function. Ghosts now get free EMP. Widow mines now do 100% more damage in splash. Those changes are relevant. It's not just the MsC sight range. SCV pull timings were winning a lot of games until Protoss started going Templar first. Templar play relies a lot on Chargelots and having energy to Storm, obviously. The Ghost and Widow mine buffs both weaken this kind of opening. His argument is somewhat valid, although we all need to play the game more before judging whether or not something is broken. | ||
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saintforsale
18 Posts
Thanks seems like solid advice, will try. It will still mean you have to open with 2 gases and get an early robo and scout with the second obs (keep one at home). especially against the bane of my greedy existence, proxy fact ;-) @ anon sc2 Why do you think things changed drastically that "none of your openers are solid" anymore? Did you just go blink all in every game? All of your openers are fine. Try them and anwer your own question. Actually i was thinking more along the lines of something that lets you take a third relatively safely which is why i liked to open temps+ chargelot so much. Going robo--> colo seemed to invite drops or scv pulls. (low stalker count, no feedback) even while it was extremely strong i still didn´t like to blink/oracle allin. | ||
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