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On February 26 2014 07:50 pmp10 wrote:
Pretty pointless changes.
TvP will stay broken and they have no idea what to do with swarmhosts.
At least they left tempests alone.
Guess we need even more time for something to move.
Your post is pointless. What is broken about PvT that this doesn't address? Give an argument or something. Don't just come out here and say "this is stupid nothing will change." We have enough of those posts already.
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I think it is great news, i still think that a nerf of the photon overcharge or of the immortals is necessary, since we see a lot of pro zergs continue to lose to immortals based builds, but maybe fast hydras will become the norm to fight these.
The hydra buff also gives zergs a great way to fight skytoss other than with SH/spores/corruptors , if used properly with vipers/infestors, giving more dynamism. What is more, it could bring back the roach hydra style vs bio terran.
I also believe that the vehicles upgrades concerning air units is too much, giving too much room for error to the terran, but the changes made the game very close to perfect balance in my opinion, great job! :D
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I am not only glad they are going through with the mine and MSC change but also because they are doing it during season.
Yes this will obviously hurt protoss since they will have to adapt to the new mine play but as it is now, terrans are hurting in PL and GSL/WCS as well so it is nice they didn't wait too long with this patch.
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Funny the changes come after the terrans have already learned to deal with all the stuff they were complaining about a month ago.
I agree with the hydra thing. Should be better. Vision range... not sure. Maybe a bit much, but a change was in order.
The widow mine is too much imho. Protoss shield was unique. Now they are a disability... How rude!
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China6331 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:57 Johnsonson wrote:
I think it is great news, i still think that a nerf of the photon overcharge or of the immortals is necessary, since we see a lot of pro zergs continue to lose to immortals based builds, but maybe fast hydras will become the norm to fight these.
The hydra buff also gives zergs a great way to fight skytoss other than with SH/spores/corruptors , if used properly with vipers/infestors, giving more dynamism. What is more, it could bring back the roach hydra style vs bio terran.
I also believe that the vehicles upgrades concerning air units is too much, giving too much room for error to the terran, but the changes made the game very close to perfect balance in my opinion, great job! :D
Like how DRG saw Creator moving out and still pressed D hard and lost? Immortal all in is fine.
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On February 26 2014 04:42 TTBest wrote:
I'm pretty sure that MSC nerf will be by far enough to let the PvT and PvZ winrates decrease sensibly. Next Weeks will show, Protoss will have to change their Earlygame Approch in terms of scouting, defending and harass.
Ehm PvZ is perfectly balanced. Actually Z is winning atm.
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On February 26 2014 07:56 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 07:50 pmp10 wrote:
Pretty pointless changes.
TvP will stay broken and they have no idea what to do with swarmhosts.
At least they left tempests alone.
Guess we need even more time for something to move. Your post is pointless. What is broken about PvT that this doesn't address? Give an argument or something. Don't just come out here and say "this is stupid nothing will change." We have enough of those posts already.
This has been explained many times but if you insist: patch does not address at all issues of early game strategic options in TvP and so it is pointless.
It will at best do nothing and at worst harm the match-up with more build order counters.
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I really like the MSC Vision nerf, much needed.
But i still feel that the lack of aggressive options in TvP for the Terran in comparision to the Protoss is still hurting the matchup alot. I hope they change something about the MSC OC (maybe channeling over the nexus?) so you can get aggressive early on as terran.
But good start. Approved.
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On February 26 2014 08:10 forsakeNXE wrote:
I really like the MSC Vision nerf, much needed.
But i still feel that the lack of aggressive options in TvP for the Terran in comparision to the Protoss is still hurting the matchup alot. I hope they change something about the MSC OC (maybe channeling over the nexus?) so you can get aggressive early on as terran.
But good start. Approved.
At first I thought that the vision did not really affect blink all-ins. But after watching a game, I realized that protoss knows exactly where tanks are seiged (if that's the chosen way to defend) due to the overwhelming vision range.
Also, that much vision range is really silly in battles on the field where fog of war has a big effect on the outcomes of battles.
I believe this will distinguish good Protoss from decent Protoss players. Keeping vision around the map will be more important now.
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On February 26 2014 07:55 saintforsale wrote:
@ toastie
Thanks seems like solid advice, will try.
It will still mean you have to open with 2 gases and get an early robo and scout with the second obs (keep one at home). especially against the bane of my greedy existence, proxy fact ;-)
Probescout.
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On February 26 2014 08:05 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 07:57 Johnsonson wrote:
I think it is great news, i still think that a nerf of the photon overcharge or of the immortals is necessary, since we see a lot of pro zergs continue to lose to immortals based builds, but maybe fast hydras will become the norm to fight these.
The hydra buff also gives zergs a great way to fight skytoss other than with SH/spores/corruptors , if used properly with vipers/infestors, giving more dynamism. What is more, it could bring back the roach hydra style vs bio terran.
I also believe that the vehicles upgrades concerning air units is too much, giving too much room for error to the terran, but the changes made the game very close to perfect balance in my opinion, great job! :D Like how DRG saw Creator moving out and still pressed D hard and lost? Immortal all in is fine.
It has not been held in pro matches recently, but that might have to do with it simply not happening too often anymore.
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The Widow mine and MSC changes are on the nose.
The hydralisk buff will help in all three matchups, but I think they're missing the mark. A 10% buff in dps I doubt is going to make a dent in the roach dominance of ZvZ or even making me slightly consider roach/hydra against bio which was the goal here. Not that big in ZvP either, hp/armor is really more of an issue there as they melt to storm/collosi and even phoenix fare nicely against them.
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According to Aligulacs most recent balance report, PvZ sits at 50.18%. It has been either balanced or Zerg favored for 20+ months straight. Implementing both a massive MSC nerf and a massive Hydra buff now is certainly daring.
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On February 26 2014 08:39 Aiobhill wrote:
According to Aligulacs most recent balance report, PvZ sits at 50.18%. It has been either balanced or Zerg favored for 20+ months straight. Implementing both a massive MSC nerf and a massive Hydra buff now is certainly daring.
I agree that PvZ is balanced. More than any matchup. But hydras aren't used too much. Nothing I love more than zerg trying to cancel a 3rd with hydras. If they get a bit better it wont change much.
MSC vision range doesn't mean too too much in this matchup. Worth much more in PvT.
So overall I doubt it will change much. Hydras are more viable vs airtoss, but that's about it.
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On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
1. its an ALL IN, so its a coinflip anyways. If there is a "save" way to do an ALL IN than it is either not an ALL IN or clearly some drastic balance changes had to happen. Blink Rush of 1 or 2 Base was way too easy to execute since the MSC arrived and way too hard to defend, also if the toss goes for it and fails, he shouldnt get away with it (thats the risk man), he should have a huge disadvantage. Wasn't always the case, that's what the problem was for terrans: they have to be prepared for so many things in early game, the cannot make pressure: Proxy Oracles, Blink or other timings. Toss has too many weapons for harass or easy win/cheese at the beginning. If T goes for an early attack there is the Photon Overcharge and if T waits too long storms or colossi again force the T back into not attacking and then we see the same game over and over again: Deathball rolling towards T- Base, T attacks from different angle, perfect EMPs... oh but missing 2 templars out of 10, then 4 Storms and everything is dead into gg. At least the early game is now a bit more open and T doesnt have to play either completely defensively but push out sooner/harass more or whatever.
Dont get me wrong, I thing lots of options is good and helps for more variety, but lots of secure options for one race, while the other one has to only defend and hope it is only a push and not an all-in is just bad design and had to be changed. What was wrong about P in WoL why does it need the early mothership core anyways or why does the MSC hve to leave the base at all - it is (or rather was planned as) a defensive unit, which got abused to the max and now people complain that blizzard wants to change the aggressive to defensive use again? I think some players got too comfortable on their throne and how they think their race did work so far and didn't think at all that it was too easy to use and abuse and too easy to make damage and in that case simply unfair and inbalanced. The, in your words HUGE change just shows how huge the Inbalance must have been then, right?
2. any easier counter to such an allin/aggressive move should be easier then the planning and execution of the attack. Otherwise it would be stupid NOT to go for such an agressive Strat.
3.Not sure about the Hydra buff either, was it really needed?
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I'm a bit concerned that the TvP changes are misplaced.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad changes have been made, but does this really address the core of the issue?
Protoss can still choose one of twenty build orders out of a hat at zero risk because of photon overcharge. Terran still needs to scout and respond perfectly or instantly lose to numerous possible openings, many of which look exactly the same and can be proxied anywhere on the map.
Regardless of balance, do you really want it to be like this? Even if the matchup settles on 50-50, it will be because Terran has some stupidly strong midgame timings.
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Vatican City State431 Posts
Why do Protoss need early scouting when Nexus cannon crushes any early aggression? For mid and late game they have tons of options for scouting: observers, oracles, hallucinations etc...I think these changes are quite irrelevant. I would be surprised if PvT changes too much. Widow Mines are gimmicky units that work only against non-ranged units. Once spotted they are useless.
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swarm host change could be you must unburrow for such a time to recharge them. Any comment?
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On February 26 2014 04:55 DonFonzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in I hope I didnt come off as against it, but yes that is the point of the nerf. Now Shutting down the all-in via sniping the MSC is a realistic possibility and not a pipe dream bnet protoss players keep telling you to smoke. As a macro toss I'm cool with that,
i like you 
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EPT
