|
On February 26 2014 09:26 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote:
All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now?
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed.
Colossus every game just like wings?
What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now.
No whine just honestly courious. how does the patch change 2 base templar opening? Learn to scout with drones again or observer (currently it feels some protoss "forgot" how to do that, as it wasn't needed), leave the MSC at home. It is a defensive unit. They should also remove recall so it isn't that useful in offensive maneuvres anymore. Being less greedy could also bei an option (going from 1 base and harassement into 2 base and then later)
If this forum had a mute function I'd use it right now. You come in here pretty much only whining "Terran too weak, Protoss too strong", go passive aggressive on someone who is slightly scared of the new widow mines and even drop some dumb balance suggestion while not considering why they were implemented in the first place. A slightly more positive attitude might be appropriate given that a negative one grants precisely 0 advantages.
By the way Protoss players aren't the only one forgetting techniques. There was a time when occasionally Terrans would walk out with 4 rax worth of marines after FEing to snipe a bunch of sentries. It took a good while until Polt showed that a pre stim moveout might be worth a shot against blink builds. I actually noticed MMA doing WM drops after expo to achieve the same a while earlier. So figure something out. It's a RTS.
|
I find it odd that they change both MSC vision and widow mines vs shields. It seems they are making 2 fixes to the same problem.
We can all whine as much as we want, but we'll have to wait and see what this does at the pro level. And then wait and see how the Toss respond to this. And then watch the counter respond and so one. There will be a lot of whining for the next few months, but a lot of time has to pass before we actually know what's going on.
|
Bring back the vision to 14 if the Mothership core became a Mothership.
It looks awkward if you have a massive unit who is near-sighted.
|
On February 26 2014 09:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote:
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step.
A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking
B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main
C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon.
D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one.
E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up. Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge? No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses.
1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant.
2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing.
3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming.
|
On February 26 2014 09:54 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 09:52 DinoMight wrote:On February 26 2014 09:43 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote:
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step.
A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking
B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main
C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon.
D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one.
E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up. Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge? No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses. PDD. I had it done against me actually. It's strong. Hmm PDD, making a raven instead of a banshee or other useful(damagedealing) units sounds risky - but will try out, thx for the tip
Marine tank Raven. PDD protects you from overcharge, a few scvs to start throwing down bunkers outside natural. It's actually quite strong.
|
On February 26 2014 09:43 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote:
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step.
A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking
B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main
C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon.
D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one.
E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
aaah its that simple :D Well then, I wonder why there were only 3 terrans at the GSL CODE S RO 32? Ah i remember: because it simply takes much more action to pull of then to defend, it doesn't do enough damage and if you go for a medivac timing, bait out the cannon 1 min before, you have like a very small window if T goes colossi -> you better leave again soon, if T goes storm, you better don't let these lightnings go down or you have lost your (at this point of time) expensive army and if Toss has any clue how Terran works, they could then just walk over you or freely expand. In theorycraft you may be right, but let's not forget that while all that happens T needs to macro up behind (making buildings, deciding how much damage he can do and if he goes for an allin or expanding or whatever), better scout the minimap if no counteraction is going on etc. And as not everybody is a 400 apm korean Terran, I would like to be in the toss position when Terran trys this early aggression thing you are talking about  (btw i switched from T to P or more to random and it actually IS easier to defend then to pull of) BTW #2: all the things you are trying to say(focusing things, splitting armies drops to pull the attention etc), are the things you need to learn when you want to go out of bronze with macro builds, or in other words it is the Terran 1x1 -> therefore, every Terran knows how to theorycraft-win a game, but somehow micro is harder to do, then just thinking about it and therefore this is the reason why terrans already have 2x the apm in lower leagues and still are in bronze cause there it takes that much more effort to win vs a protoss (as you pointed out perfectly, it is JUST needed to do this and that, multitask a bit, micro a bit, focus a bit, keep the toss busy etc - yeah simple, while Toss is still save if...) besides that, some things you say are just untrue, a 1-1-1 wouldn't work against the cannon anymore
1. Really its harder on the attacker than the defender I didn't Know that....Oh wait yeah I did its called a DEFENDERS ADVANTAGE.
2. Yeah of course you have to learn to split your army, but know you don't have to learn to do that to get into higher league unfortunately. There are plenty of players that have made it diamond masters just off of cheese and timing builds.
3. Oh course you have to macro at home if your pushing same rule applies for ever race not just terrans.
4. Of course its harder to do it than it is in theory but not being able to do it personally doesn't mean its unbalanced it just means you need to get better.
5. You have KNOW IDEA rather Terrans or Protosses apm is higher. Nor does apm relate to skill in any way. Anybody can sit and spam in the early game and fake a high apm is how effect your moves per minute are not how many of them you do.
6. Up unitl the last few months timing attacks and all-ins were used alot how many times do you remember seeing scv pulls or big 10-12 minuted pushes. I remember watching forgg, MVP, MMA, Taeja and many other Terrans bust out big 8-12 minute pushes. It wasn't until about october-November last year after the hellbat nerf when the pushes started to calm down some.
7. Everything I said above except for the late game micro doesn't require all that much skill at all to do. Stimming in and out to bait a photon overcharge a little bit before you plan to attack not hard. Stimming in then dropping up into the main isn't all that hard. Nor is just focus firing down a small army and running in to the main.
8. Its not easy for toss either when the Terran is playing right, they have to split their army correctly defend multiple locations, continue to macro, and find some way of applying pressure or far to far behind. However, Alot of terrans will over commit to attack a 2base templar tech protoss and lose. Any race turtled up on 2bases just needs to be contained while you macro.
9. If a Protoss opens colossi you should already know how to deal with this. Before Protoss started opening Templar and opened colossi every game the win rate was in favor of Terran it turned around when Protoss started opening Templar.
10. And I suppose you would also be comfortable saying everytime their were low numbers of Protoss in code S it was because of imbalance.
|
On February 26 2014 10:16 aZealot wrote:
Good god, is this a record? So much stupid bullshit over the last couple of pages. Lol!
It is record setting for sure. The power of the non-sense is so strong it is almost overwhelming.
|
On February 26 2014 10:41 sandman1678 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 09:43 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote:
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step.
A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking
B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main
C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon.
D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one.
E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up. Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge? No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses. 1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant. 2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing. 3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming.
Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening.
When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins.
Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already.
|
juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
Not sure if OP or a mod wants to stick this into the OP regarding the timing of EU's patching.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11884478436
Hello everyone,
As David Kim mentioned in his recent forum post, we’ll be moving forward with a new balance update this week. However, we realized that our original release schedule for Friday, February 28 would offer WCS Europe Premier League Group F competitors just a few short hours to practice with the new changes. Instead, we’re going to slightly alter our release schedule by holding off on the balance update for the European Battle.net region until after the Group F broadcast concludes on Saturday, March 1.
With tournaments on-going across the globe, there’s never a perfect time to roll out a balance update, but we want to make sure our target dates will have the least amount of impact possible on upcoming events. Once again, this schedule change will only affect Europe and we are still planning to release the update for all other Battle.net regions on Friday, February 28.
Thank you, and good luck to all of the players competing in WCS this week!
|
On February 26 2014 11:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 10:41 sandman1678 wrote:On February 26 2014 09:43 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote:
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step.
A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking
B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main
C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon.
D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one.
E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up. Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge? No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses. 1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant. 2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing. 3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming. Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening. When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins. Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already.
Yeah but Protoss has to get gas out to get their MSC out, and zerg has to get at leat one gas up if they want to get speed out early. So its working as intended you can sacrifice a little eco to get some map control or risk it and be greedy, Being extremely greedy is always risky.
However, just because you opened with a reaper doesn't mean you can't do a variety of different builds.Furthermore, 1 MSC doesn't stop a reaper from scouting just keeps it from snipeing probes. Even when the first stalkers comes out around 4:15-4:30 a reaper can still get a scout off and get out.
There are more than one way to prepare for Blink look at the way Polt does it. Furthermore, a bunker takes 40secs to build so if you scout 4+ stalkers out you can throw up an extra bunker in your main since you should already have one at your natural, then if you see a push coming have enough time to get a 3rd up. Other than that it depends on how greedy and late you are with your rax's and stim. I notice polt get his 3 raxs up decently early and get out a decent amount of units and if he spots blink he gets a large swell of units and will actually counter attack when the stalkers move it and completely shut Blink down.
|
wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss.
No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told.
Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
|
On February 26 2014 11:26 sandman1678 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 11:15 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 10:41 sandman1678 wrote:On February 26 2014 09:43 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote:
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step.
A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking
B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main
C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon.
D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one.
E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up. Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge? No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses. 1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant. 2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing. 3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming. Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening. When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins. Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already. Yeah but Protoss has to get gas out to get their MSC out, and zerg has to get at leat one gas up if they want to get speed out early. So its working as intended you can sacrifice a little eco to get some map control or risk it and be greedy, Being extremely greedy is always risky. However, just because you opened with a reaper doesn't mean you can't do a variety of different builds.Furthermore, 1 MSC doesn't stop a reaper from scouting just keeps it from snipeing probes. Even when the first stalkers comes out around 4:15-4:30 a reaper can still get a scout off and get out. There are more than one way to prepare for Blink look at the way Polt does it. Furthermore, a bunker takes 40secs to build so if you scout 4+ stalkers out you can throw up an extra bunker in your main since you should already have one at your natural, then if you see a push coming have enough time to get a 3rd up. Other than that it depends on how greedy and late you are with your rax's and stim. I notice polt get his 3 raxs up decently early and get out a decent amount of units and if he spots blink he gets a large swell of units and will actually counter attack when the stalkers move it and completely shut Blink down.
You are the one saying that terrans are doing the same reaper openings... Was just trying to explain why terrans are going reaper first a lot.
As for Polt's move out, yes, it can work if unscouted. But going out of the base with unstimmed bio is always risky vs stalkers and MsC out (timewarp).
|
still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
|
On February 26 2014 11:35 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 11:26 sandman1678 wrote:On February 26 2014 11:15 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 10:41 sandman1678 wrote:On February 26 2014 09:43 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 09:30 sandman1678 wrote:
I'm so tired of the Terrans complaining about not being able to attack early on;
1. 8-10 Min timing attacks are still effective you just need to have a strategy that is more than amove stutter step.
A. move out sooner and bait out a overcharge a min or so before you planned on attacking
B. bait out an over charge at their natural then boost into the main
C. If they don't have enough units their defend fight throught the overcharge and go up into the main it only does as much damage as a photon cannon.
D. Drop harrass is still effective and NOT shutdown by an over charge. Remember how you got their.....Yeah the medi vac is flies it can also flie away from the over charge to the nexus without one.
E. Stop acting like the nexus suddenly turned into zues and started hurling lighting bolts at you its just a photon cannon with larger range. If they only have a few units you can still crush their units and run into the main taking very little damage or hell you can even wipe out a probe line before the nexus cannon cleans you up which is a good trade.
2. Stop auto attacking everything focus fire down their units and then move up into the main and focus down pylons and techs.
3. Stop thinking big straight forward push alot times 1 medivac flying around dropping hear, picking up and droping somewhere else will distract and put a player so far on tilt they start messing up giving you an advantage. Furthermore, while your 1 medi is their be annoying you can macro back at home fine. The key is to know when to stop doing drop harass alot of terrans will build themselves a good lead then blow it by sacrificing macro to continue harassing.
4.Its kinda hypocrytical to talk about how its too easy to recover from a failed blink all-in when their terrans have recovered just fine scv pulls over and over again don't you think. Furthermore, just because an all in doesn't win the game right out doesn't mean it failed. As long as the all-in did enough damage or bought enought time for a transition than it also is successful.
5. Protoss haven't been needing to scout because Terrans have been extremely predictable. How often do you see Terrans using all-ins, 1/1/1 opeings, or going for early 2 base timings anymore. Go back a year ago and protoss had to alot of scouting because terrans were going for a plethora of didn't timing attacks and cheese builds accompanied with alot of drop harass. Now they have switched into same old reaper opening every game.
6. Stop trying to force builds and strats to work, scv pulls won't work against templar openings, once templars get out and the protoss is still on 2 bases stop trying to break/ harass them just expand he/she is turtled up so the best thing you can do is get and economic advantage.
7. Stop being afraid of the late game and trying to end it early at all cost during the mid game. Get some ghost out and split your army effectively into a drop group and push group, scan alot to pinpoint his army, then depending on the location fly into the main or push into the 3rd/4th. The goal is to pick off a nexus or key tech structure once you see the army moving in to deal with you lift out of their or stim back. You will eventually wear keep trading and wearing down his army to the point were they can't keep up.
8. Bio is not made to go head to head with late game protosses armies. Bio is made to run around and pick apart late game protoss armies or run over the top of it before it gets up. Cool, a Protoss making a Terran account to tell Terrans how to play. How do you do a 1-1-1 vs photon overcharge? No Terran wants to do a reaper opening since it kills Eco. But if you don't have any info, you just easily die to oracles or blink since they require totally different responses. 1. what type of 1/1/1 out of the plethora of 1/1/1 builds do you want to do? 1/1/1 isn't specific build its just an opening, you need to say what you want to do out of it, fast mine drop, cloaked banshee, hellion harass, quick tank bio drop and or push you can do a crap ton of things out of a 1/1/1 so saying a 1/1/1 is bad against photon overcharge is just plain ignorant. 2. There are more ways to scout than opening with a reaper, and again opening with a reaper is just an opening you can do this with any build. Furthermore, reaper opening is for scouting not economic damage if you get some thats great but its just for scouting. Also you can blind counter oracles really easy just by rallying marines into your mineral line from 7-9 mins or so until you can determine what they are doing. 3. Their are several different ways to scout, furthermore, since a blink timing comes around 7-9mins you should of had plenty of time to get a reaper out and scout the twilight, if you went with some early mine drop/ cloaked banshee/ or any really early aggression your in their base you should know whats coming, or if you didn't get a reaper scout and got extremely unlucky with a scan the crap ton of stalkers everywhere should give you a big hint to what is coming. Unless you open reaper first, it is very unlikely to get a reaper to scout the tech in the main if the protoss has MsC and stalkers in position. That is why we see opening reapers as the safe opening. When I said reapers kills eco, I meant that it kills terran eco (since you have to go early gas, can't start reactor, etc). No terrans actually WANT to go reaper first if they are going for eco game but they are forced to in order to not die to all-ins. Also, blink-ins take a lot of time to prepare for (bunkers, tanks, tech lab for marauders, etc), If you only realise it is blink play after scanning 6-7 stalkers, it is likely too late already. Yeah but Protoss has to get gas out to get their MSC out, and zerg has to get at leat one gas up if they want to get speed out early. So its working as intended you can sacrifice a little eco to get some map control or risk it and be greedy, Being extremely greedy is always risky. However, just because you opened with a reaper doesn't mean you can't do a variety of different builds.Furthermore, 1 MSC doesn't stop a reaper from scouting just keeps it from snipeing probes. Even when the first stalkers comes out around 4:15-4:30 a reaper can still get a scout off and get out. There are more than one way to prepare for Blink look at the way Polt does it. Furthermore, a bunker takes 40secs to build so if you scout 4+ stalkers out you can throw up an extra bunker in your main since you should already have one at your natural, then if you see a push coming have enough time to get a 3rd up. Other than that it depends on how greedy and late you are with your rax's and stim. I notice polt get his 3 raxs up decently early and get out a decent amount of units and if he spots blink he gets a large swell of units and will actually counter attack when the stalkers move it and completely shut Blink down. You are the one saying that terrans are doing the same reaper openings... Was just trying to explain why terrans are going reaper first a lot. As for Polt's move out, yes, it can work if unscouted. But going out of the base with unstimmed bio is always risky vs stalkers and MsC out (timewarp).
As to Polt's move out if thier going for a blink push its going to be nearly impossible for them to scout with no obs as they try and move across the map. However, if Polt kept his units at home he would be able to defend just as well, Polt holding isn't determined on the counter attack its the large amount of units and how fast he gets stim out. What hurts alot of Terrans is stim being to far delayed, lack of units, and lack of production. Furthermore, the eco Polt loses early on is made back up in delaying the protosses 3rd or from shutting down early blink aggression. My point is you don't need the counter attack for this to work just stim, the swell of units, and production.
|
On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote:
still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
Oracles hit around a very specific time to fix this issue:
1. If no reaper scout or in a heavy oracle meta game rally back your marines into your mineral line between i believe 6-7or8min mark by then an oracle if its coming should have come already and having those marines their should shut it down.
2. If reaper scout you can tell by either scouting the stargate or lack their of Pylon and tech in the protosses main base that something was proxied and its probally a stargate.
3. Once you have pushed off the oracle the first time get out a missle turret in both minerals lines and if your going to be using WMs try placing 1 around the outside geyser of either the natural or main.
However, your going to go its not that easy i won't remember to do that, I'll have to spend money on 2 turrets, so you will call me stupid and say the oracle is broken and Blizzard hates Terran.
|
On February 26 2014 11:52 sandman1678 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote:
still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are... Oracles hit around a very specific time to fix this issue: 1. If no reaper scout or in a heavy oracle meta game rally back your marines into your mineral line between i believe 6-7or8min mark by then an oracle if its coming should have come already and having those marines their should shut it down. 2. If reaper scout you can tell by either scouting the stargate or lack their of Pylon and tech in the protosses main base that something was proxied and its probally a stargate. 3. Once you have pushed off the oracle the first time get out a missle turret in both minerals lines and if your going to be using WMs try placing 1 around the outside geyser of either the natural or main. However, your going to go its not that easy i won't remember to do that, I'll have to spend money on 2 turrets, so you will call me stupid and say the oracle is broken and Blizzard hates Terran.
I take it you do not, under any circumstances play terran? Protoss is fine, play it out before theorycrafting so hard and you will learn a lot. Or go play a couple ladder sessions as terrans and you will save yourself a lot of wasted time telling terrans who play at a far higher level than you what to do because youre looking a little ridiculous. But I appreciate your enthusiasm if you apply it in the right way you will be alright man.
Id hate to see some newbie read your post and take your advice because whether you realize it or not your gonna crush some poor nerds dreams.
On another note I cant fucking wait for the patch cuz of the widow mine. Imagine if it really does give auto wins like the toss doomsayers speculate? Quick ggs like our toss brethren have cost us with their hidden dts and blink. Cant wait to break out some Supernova style hidden tech cheese. Ah... how the tables have turned charlie murphy.
|
On February 26 2014 11:29 seak99 wrote:wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss. No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told. Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case
more like a lot of sour terran looking for more freebies to me.
Most of the terrans' nerfs in HOTS were meant to address TvZ, never for TvP. So take your whine elsewhere.
PO, MSC vision, stalker blink all-in exist since the release of HOTS. When Protoss was not doing well, nobody complained about them. Now everybody like you just jumped into the bandwagon and balance whine, lol.
|
This patch is fucking huge.
|
|
|
On February 26 2014 12:22 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 11:29 seak99 wrote:wow, after reading through all this it sounds like there are a lot of sour protoss. No one likes getting there race nerfed or the other buffed. Been happening to Terran for a long time now. "Lets see how it plays out" is what Terrans were always told. Also remember David Kim is always quick to fix imbalances just in case more like a lot of sour terran looking for more freebies to me. Most of the terrans' nerfs in HOTS were meant to address TvZ, never for TvP. So take your whine elsewhere. PO, MSC vision, stalker blink all-in exist since the release of HOTS. When Protoss was not doing well, nobody complained about them. Now everybody like you just jumped into the bandwagon and balance whine, lol.
The game will never be perfectly balanced because of design its a fact. We have been dealing with DT auto wins, blink auto wins, for a long time now. Many professional terrans and are getting fucked and thats not good for the game. Maybe for your ladder points but if you give a damn about the game youd be a little more diplomatic. The way they balance these auto win strats is by giving terrans some of those some opportunities that toss has been benefiting from for a long time. I would prefer these strats dont exist at all but hey, there is inherent problems with the design of the game we have to accept at this point. Try to look at it from both sides and stop being selfish. Your scouting was nerfed, okay, nerfs happen. But guess what terrans have been having a helluva time scouting toss its getting to the point where the best of terrans routinely running around their base like headless chickens preparing for shit that simply isnt coming. It was either they took away the element of surprise by giving terrans more viable scouting or the find some sort of way to take that scouting away from protoss. I wouldve preferred the former but hey, shit happens. Or maybe as a terran Im getting so used to nerfs Im not as sensitives as you guys but play the game it wont affect you.
If it does, chances are its because YOU did something wrong not David Kim.
If we gave you the mothership core as it is after the patch at the start of hots you would have been thrilled but now you lot cant begin to fathom a world where the vision is decreased? WTF. These things have nothing to do with us anyway unless your gm. Its about the korean terrans getting raped. Its about the game being good enough for aspiring progamers to choose playing it and giving us their entertainment?
What do you people what? Will you be satisfied with no attempts to balance the game until it gets to the point terran doesnt exist on the highest echelon anymore? Sometimes it seems like it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
