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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On February 26 2014 13:52 wishr wrote: So much protoss tears in this thread. Why everyone just complain so much instead of just playing? So much Protoss tears? Where do you get that from? I think there were a couple of Protoss posters, one of whom, I am pretty certain is a troll (theory crafting like mad) with a few Terran rising to it. But, the rest seem to be generally fine with it - as am I. | ||
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
On February 26 2014 14:09 aZealot wrote: + Show Spoiler + So much Protoss tears? Where do you get that from? I think there were a couple of Protoss posters, one of whom, I am pretty certain is a troll (theory crafting like mad) with a few Terran rising to it. But, the rest seem to be generally fine with it - as am I. Nice to see people like u. GJ, bro! | ||
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
"Regarding Hydralisk, I think that it would be much better to buff their anti air range and/or HP, not DPS. Perhaps something like this: Air attack range increased from 5 to 6. (becomes 7 after range upgrade) HP increased from 80 to 90. Anti air range is especially relevant because Zerg lacks good AA, except for spores. This would give them the same AA range as Queens, after you make range upgrade." Edit: On February 26 2014 14:16 Aveng3r wrote: im so dissapointed they didnt do something about blink They did. MSC vision range nerf affects Blink rushes considerably. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 26 2014 13:44 LibertyRises wrote: Yup theres something toss can do mirco wise to minimize the effectiveness of the widow mine. Oracles are impossible to kill and are still cost efficient even when u invest in directly countering them with turrets. U literally need 2 turrets or 1 turret and a marines. It doesnt make sense. Oh my god TWO WHOLE TURRETS? NO WAY 200 minerals to block a 300/300 Toss investment? Oh man how rough that must be. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On February 26 2014 14:16 Aveng3r wrote: im so dissapointed they didnt do something about blink You mean like... Nerfing the MSC vision all the way to 9 to make high ground vision way harder toget for blinking? | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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LibertyRises
United States175 Posts
On February 26 2014 14:20 Wingblade wrote: Oh my god TWO WHOLE TURRETS? NO WAY 200 minerals to block a 300/300 Toss investment? Oh man how rough that must be. Your right even when considering having to build an ebay earlier than you want to building two turrets PER BASE which is four is in no way impeding to your build at all silly me i forget that things like banshees and other forms of terran harass units illicit comparable responses economically (like force and cannons right!) and are so slow they require many actions and attention to detail as opposed to simply selecting overcharge. You are right 200 minerals no and no build hitches. Oracle never cost efficient in the face of perfect mirco duh and preventative measures. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 26 2014 14:20 Wingblade wrote: Oh my god TWO WHOLE TURRETS? NO WAY 200 minerals to block a 300/300 Toss investment? Oh man how rough that must be. That's two turrets per base if you want to move out with marines just to keep your mineral lines from getting destroy. Oracles have other uses like picking off SCVs building production, units coming out of production, scouting, deny SCV scout, revelation. So yes, it can be pretty rough. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 26 2014 14:06 Mozdk wrote: I haven't seen the game, but it doesn't matter. If it is so dang strong, that you can get a fast 3rd and put the terran far behind, it should be done every single game at pro level, and P should have 90%+ winrate. They don't, so it's not. /thread Lol, and BL/infestors weren't used in every single game and ZvP was never 90% for zerg, does that mean it was fine? Or 1-1-1 pre patch and pre map changes? Are you really suggesting things should only be changed if it has a 90% win rate? If so, please bring back the pre-nerf hellbats and widow mines. With the exception of maybe 5 rax reapers using the early WoL maps, nothing had 90% win rate. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On February 26 2014 14:23 Wingblade wrote: You mean like... Nerfing the MSC vision all the way to 9 to make high ground vision way harder toget for blinking? whoops misread, I didnt think that one went through either | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On February 26 2014 13:25 Mozdk wrote: You also have to account for mutas, you also have to account for widow mines. It's the same in every matchup. The closest comparable opening was in tvz/tvt and it was called hellbat drops. They since got nerfed because: Having an opening that can hit you reasonably cheaply and be expanded upon which when not prepared for can instantly lose you the game is stupid, furthermore since we dont play in a vacuum, just the threat of that build forces unreasonable countermeasures vs potentially stronger builds (in tvz its the 21 triple oc build, in pvt there's a miriad). Hellbat drops were almost unanimously regarded as a ridiculous and hence got nerfed, proxy oracle is if anything worse. Also, the two examples you gave were ridiculous. One hits you much much later (assuming two base muta here) and you have to do more damage then the proxy oracle build (which is kind of funny) the other cannot end the game without the protoss making the worlds largest micro mistake. | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
Or, Maruaders Mines Medivac :D | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On February 26 2014 13:56 theBALLS wrote: If protoss fails to do damage with oracles, they too fall far behind. That's not true at all. There's been countless games where people open up Stargate oracle, get at most 1-2 SCV kills cause who can't, and it's a very simple templar transition that plays like a normal game. Zest vs Maru was the most recent one in Proleague. sOs vs Bomber in WCS is also an easy one to see. Those are just the ones off the top of my head, I'm sure other people can give you far more examples that you're gonna just ignore. | ||
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moofang
508 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 26 2014 15:50 YyapSsap wrote: Its interesting to note that DK has been contacting Flash several times for his feedback with regards to balance according to his recent proleague interview. I think Flash has emailed DK several times. And some of his suggestions were implemented. But I am pretty sure DK got the same suggestions from hundreds of pro and non-pro players (sight range, blink, etc). | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 26 2014 16:07 moofang wrote: Really not sure the widow mine buff is needed. Already seeing steady increase in bio-mine compositions in pro-level PvT and in ladder PvT. Imo shoulda waited for the meta to develop a bit more before buffing. Buffs aren't only to made to units to make them more used/common. Some buffs are made so the units does better vs other units or do better in their roles. Immortals got buffed even though they were common before their buff. Spores were buffed even when they were being made. Protoss got buff to their upgrades even though protoss were already upgrading. Buffs to widows mines were done to increase their effectiveness in early harass (forcing protoss to be more defensive) and vs mass zealots comps that were increasingly more popular. | ||
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VArsovskiSC
Macedonia563 Posts
On February 26 2014 16:03 Chaggi wrote: That's not true at all. There's been countless games where people open up Stargate oracle, get at most 1-2 SCV kills cause who can't, and it's a very simple templar transition that plays like a normal game. Zest vs Maru was the most recent one in Proleague. sOs vs Bomber in WCS is also an easy one to see. Those are just the ones off the top of my head, I'm sure other people can give you far more examples that you're gonna just ignore. Well - strenght-wise that's true, but gameplay-wise that's not... So I guess you're both right.. If Protoss opens up with a Stargate it was an investment, and if it failed - true that Protoss is behind.. But - shouldn't it be that way ?? Also - don't forget how Revelation can really change the looks of the battles.. So Oracles have their prolonged usage though, despite not being a fighter unit.. Oracle still has at least some minimal (though it was shown quite a few times that minimal revelation role can really be pivital to the matchups as well) use after the beginning stages of the game | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On February 26 2014 14:15 MyrMindservant wrote: Eh, I'm really disappointed they didn't try different approach to Hydras. Here's the idea I mentioned in another thread some time ago: "Regarding Hydralisk, I think that it would be much better to buff their anti air range and/or HP, not DPS. Perhaps something like this: Air attack range increased from 5 to 6. (becomes 7 after range upgrade) HP increased from 80 to 90. Anti air range is especially relevant because Zerg lacks good AA, except for spores. This would give them the same AA range as Queens, after you make range upgrade." Edit: They did. MSC vision range nerf affects Blink rushes considerably. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about the hydra change too. I dislike the attack speed change because it affects the micro ability of the unit. At least they are trying to fix the hydra and I like the WM and MSC changes, looking forward to seeing how everything plays out. | ||
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