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On February 26 2014 18:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 18:16 Big J wrote:On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote:
As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer.
I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less.
This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily.
Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high.
What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced. I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger. yeah cause that'll happen if the game slows down. Let's all just play chess instead right? I guess you prefer having terrible terrible damage completely wipe out an army while you're macro'ing at home in the 1 second that you don't look at your army
We have a race in the game with a ton of such units, it's called Protoss.
Call me when you see a successful stalker or sentry drop.
Call me the next time when someone calls a roach vs roach or roach vs stalker battle "so exciting", just because it lasts 3times longer than a fight including bio or banelings.
But yeah, you probably want more units like the Colossus or the Immortal or the Ultralisk or the Thor in the game. They are soooo exciting, right? Everyone always talks about those great units, and noone has ever called a glascanon exciting, right?
Hell, Swarm Hosts are the best! Have you ever seen how long battles including SHs last? Firecake vs Mana, over 2hours of nonstop action with hardly any real units dying. AMAZING!!!!
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On February 26 2014 18:38 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote:
Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal. Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead. Really...widow mines are not that big of a deal.
The terran army will be sitting on top of the mines... Its not so simple, they could prove to be a very powerful tool.
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Can't wait to see how this affects the overall meta and who will rise and fall among the pros.
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WM and msc vision range buffs are fine. But hydralisks? They were already used in 80% of midgame PvZ, and they get buffed? It's like buffing storm because no one uses them in PvP lol.
Void ray/templar style will be impossible to execute, but even if the toss goes colossi, forcing them out with the threat of hydras and then switching to mutas will be extremely effective. This change will definitely make ZvP zerg favoured.
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Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
They were super hard to deal with in the Mineral line back then. It's more reasonable damage it will do now, but they're much, much stronger vs the army now.
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Hydra buff gets online?
Ladder points, you no longer avoid me!!
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It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it.
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On February 26 2014 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:
It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it.
I think protoss cant open 3stargate voidray anymore.
It will be a sad day. :p
Honestly protoss should be forced to open colossus more often, and then rush to StormLossus.
My guess is the meta might become Robo >into 2star >into templar
2star has to be the followup IMO due to mutas being a win button vs a player with no stargates/unprepared.
Metagame will change, overall balance shouldn't. atleast I hope, as long as storm/collosus can still beat hydra armies then I see no problem with that change
In fact I am fine with all the changes, happy to see buffs to other races rather than nerfs to toss (the MSC vision was needed)
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On February 26 2014 19:58 Maasked wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:
It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it. I think protoss cant open 3stargate voidray anymore. It will be a sad day. :p Honestly protoss should be forced to open colossus more often, and then rush to StormLossus. My guess is the meta might become Robo >into 2star >into templar 2star has to be the followup IMO due to mutas being a win button vs a player with no stargates/unprepared. Metagame will change, overall balance shouldn't. atleast I hope, as long as storm/collosus can still beat hydra armies then I see no problem with that change In fact I am fine with all the changes, happy to see buffs to other races rather than nerfs to toss (the MSC vision was needed)
I agree that a colossus/stalker/storm army will still beat a hydra-based army. However, this brings two problems:
1- the first is that PvZ midgame meta will lose a lot of its variety, due to the impossibility of executing a void ray based play. David Kim has always stated that their aim was in increasing the possibilities in the game. While this hydra buff is useful in this sense in TvZ and ZvZ, it has the opposite effect in PvZ.
2- The tech choice of the protoss player becomes too predictable which allows the zerg to go for compositions which are very good against colossi instead, such as mutalisks, ultralisks, broodlords.
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On February 26 2014 18:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 18:29 Chaggi wrote:On February 26 2014 18:16 Big J wrote:On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote:
As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer.
I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less.
This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily.
Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high.
What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced. I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger. yeah cause that'll happen if the game slows down. Let's all just play chess instead right? I guess you prefer having terrible terrible damage completely wipe out an army while you're macro'ing at home in the 1 second that you don't look at your army We have a race in the game with a ton of such units, it's called Protoss. Call me when you see a successful stalker or sentry drop. Call me the next time when someone calls a roach vs roach or roach vs stalker battle "so exciting", just because it lasts 3times longer than a fight including bio or banelings. But yeah, you probably want more units like the Colossus or the Immortal or the Ultralisk or the Thor in the game. They are soooo exciting, right? Everyone always talks about those great units, and noone has ever called a glascanon exciting, right? Hell, Swarm Hosts are the best! Have you ever seen how long battles including SHs last? Firecake vs Mana, over 2hours of nonstop action with hardly any real units dying. AMAZING!!!!
Your examples are flawed.
Roach vs Roach is boring because there's it's a mirror fight with one unit. No dynamic. No spells
Instead Ling Bane is exciting to watch cause there's more a dynamic factor, baneling explosion. Still, Lings move so fast we see top pros make micro mistakes all the time, and 1 mistake into a bane can cost the game. Even if you raise the HP of Ling/Banes to slow down the fight, it will still involve intense micro and be fun to watch.
Roach vs Stalker is whatever simply due to blink micro. But Roach by itself has no wow factor. The roach player tries to rush and pick off single stalkers.
Swarm host sux simply due to continouse spawning of free units doing so much crazy damage
These examples are isolated cases, and don't defend the fact that Starcraft 2 is still very fast.
If you change the game design, like less clumping, then microing armies not only require whoever splits the best or has better positioning, but actual micro, and the attacker can actually not be so afraid to attack into a defender's advantage of pre-splitting, causeing a stalemate.
If you increase the HP of all the units, and if current balance still holds, then battles with different dynamics/ armies with different units will be very exciting and micro intensive and don't just last 3 seconds where everything obliterated while you spam out aoe spells like storms and fungals.
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It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving.
I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see.
Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
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On February 26 2014 16:48 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug* Though funny sounding, but you could actually make Mine into Sky-Terran work vs Protoss possible..
Sky Toss vs Sky Terran?! Stop stop stop...my penis can only get SO erect!
On February 26 2014 18:30 Faust852 wrote:
Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
I don't understand why people keep saying this. It's making the WM stronger than it is currently, why does it matter how completely OP it was before?
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United States4883 Posts
On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine
Stimmed marines have an attack speed of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
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On February 26 2014 21:56 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineStimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them.
Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second.
People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
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Hydra buff was probably needed; not sure if its the right change but that unit needs some buff or other.
MSC change FINALLY went through. I can't believe how long it took with almost everyone saying "if you need to nerf something, nerf the vision on this". That's a hell of a huge nerf though, fingers crossed there won't be unintended consequences.
Still not convinced by the mine thing. For all of the arguments that "oh it was stronger before and it wasn't a problem"...no, it was stronger before and it was very tricky to deal with, it wasn't "no problem". And that was with a longer-visioned MSC to help spot the drop coming into the base. Whether this change will be a problem I'm not sure; but I worry its going to really mess up openings given the importance of Zealot/HT to stop SCV pull all-ins.
Good that the more crazy proposals were left at the door. The Blink nerf was just absurd and the Tempest buff was completely the wrong way to go about answering the PvZ Swarm Host issue.
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On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see.
This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead
which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win
I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
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First time I'm hyped bout a balance patch , can't wait for tvping
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On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
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Me thinks Terran won't have such a hard time vs Protoss anymore :D
Ladder points here I come!
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Ok terrans will be fine, but look only 3 zerg and 9 toss in Gsl.
We should nerf toss air to save the zerg 
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EPT
