On February 26 2014 11:43 Loccstana wrote: still no fixes to TvP lategame or how ridiculous oracles are...
No one is having problems with oracles anymore. Not at pro level. Or even diamond.
You do realize that the problem with oracles has never been that they're hard to stop, but that literally every build that Terran has to open up with HAS to account for oracles or else they just straight up die? That they provide a stupid amount of flexibility to the Protoss player and give massive amounts of map control, and is easily transitioned from even if NO damage is done. Zest vs Maru in the most recent Proleague is a great example of that.
If protoss fails to do damage with oracles, they too fall far behind.
Depends on how you define "damage". Form recent games it seems that you don't necessarily need to kill a certain amount of SCVs for an oracle to pay off and not put you behind. Having map control and possibility to deny scouting for terran gives a lot of options to protoss at home, like taking a fast third and getting crucial tech out.
Flash vs. Parting in PL is also a good example because Parting's opening was a fast proxy oracle so it needed to do "even more damage" to pay off but at the start he didn't get a single SCV.
There is no real standard timing for a protoss third base like it is in TvZ where you expect to find a third between 6-7 minutes or else something is up (like 2 base mutas, or some roach-bane etc. aggression). So if you can't get an SCV or a reaper out you can never tell if he is doing some aggressive follow up, is he teching or is he taking a fast third base.
I suggest you watch this game:
There was also a similar game at IEM on Habitation station where protoss player (HerO or Classic) went for basically the same thing but they even went for a gold base instead of standard one.
On February 26 2014 15:50 YyapSsap wrote: Its interesting to note that DK has been contacting Flash several times for his feedback with regards to balance according to his recent proleague interview.
The idea to nerf MSC vision was suggested by a lot of people who play, cast or watch SC2 so it is not really shocking they finally went for it and tested it out.
I remember Flash saying he tried to get in contact with David Kim but was unable to do so (back then when he had some suggestions on how to change tanks to be better), so if he is finally in contact with him, that is great as far as I am concerned because DK himself said on that special episode of Meta that he is in contact with guys like Naniwa and ToD a lot so it is good if he also has a "terran representative" on his pro team.
Nice to hear that the Balance team is on the thinking again.. Hopefully they come out with a SH change in a good way.. Really pleased ATM, just hope I won't need to b*tch 2 days later, rofl..
OK - must say specifically that I really love the WM change, and that's mainly cause it affects the matchup on all levels on play and not just for the Pros.. Though maybe the lower levels of play don't matter much, think a lot more people will like SC2 if it's easier to play IMO.. Like - now there can possibly be some "alternatives" other than kiting like mad.. I mean - it will still be the kiting-as-mad thing, but it will work much better with the mines TBH, and that being the case vs especially heavy-Zealot compositions, which was the exact thing needed
The MSC change seems a bit drastic, but I guess it's ok, some army spread-up and a bit more scouting though could make it work well
And as for Hydras - don't know if the change is good or not, like seems to shut down some Protoss mid-game options harder, but what I'm optimistic about is - though the next thing is a SH nerf followup, Blizz finally showing some Zerg attention and love
It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
Agreed man, sorry for not understanding your point at the very first read..
Well the most important is the power of transition out of all this.. Now you could actually open up with mines and then decide what to do later on.. Though funny sounding, but you could actually make Mine into Sky-Terran work vs Protoss possible.. Tempest is still a big pain in the butt though..
Like I said however - it's not a Ghost-sight change, like - something that only pros will be able to operate with, but something that affects all the "mortals" as well
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
Definitely, the WM opening will be very popular because terrans finally have a unit that is flexible enough to deal with various P openings. Right now, it is marines/turrets vs oracle openings and marauders/tanks/bunkers vs blink openings so terrans are heavily dictated by Protosses. For blink, protoss will have to try to blink 1 stalker in to take the first shot and that will give terrans more time to react. Same with protoss zealot balls, they will have to send in a couple zealots to set off the mines like terrans do with marauders to zone out the templars. Flanking with templars also becomes more risky if you don't have obs in good positions.
i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
Agreed helps the Tempest identity crisis and just gives a little something that at least Protoss players can look forward in this patch.
Widow mine buff: Frankly I dont know. Not sure it is that efficient.
If it killed an Oracle it's cost is paid off x4, if it kills a Stalker, it's paid off x2, if it kills 3 workers it's paid off, if it kills a Zealot+does a little splash to other units, it's paid off. It's splash kills Sentries and High Templars. You need to get Robo and probably Cannons in your Mineral line. It will always pay off, all out of a structure that you will always get, because you want Medivacs/Vikings and all out of a structure that is known to just sit idle or used for scouting purpose. The only question is, how many of these buggers are you gonna build! Sidenote: Notice how Widow Mines now do 40 shield dmg splash, but only 35 shield dmg to the initial target. Looks a little silly IMO.
On February 26 2014 17:35 Drake wrote: i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
I'd rather they buff the Carrier but a better Tempest would be cool, too. That unit has grown on me.
On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug*
The widow mine buff is not going to be some sort of failsafe against blink all ins as opposed to before.. you are really overestimating this buff.
On February 26 2014 17:35 Drake wrote: i rly want the tempest buff ... guys in the testmaps showmatches, the buff vs buildings fixed a HELL LOT vs swarmhost play ... so why that isnt in ? i mean it god damn fixes the swarmhost problem (bye bye spores) for me its ok make it + vs bio only or whatever
Haven't watched the games, but does it actually make for more interesting games? Or is it just "bye bye spores, time for you to make more spores and deny vision more".
As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote: As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger.
On February 26 2014 18:14 Dfine wrote: As much as I like changes to the game. There is one thing that I would like to point out that. This game is too fast paced like husky says that the battles are short and they should be a bit longer the units die too fast the battles should last longer. I recently installed LoL, after playing dota for 2 years i found that the main difference between the 2 games, is that in LoL the hero vs hero battle last longer since the health pool is large the mana pool is large and even the damage output is less. This game is too fast in terms of units dieing.Now lets take an example of starbow this game is also a little slow paced. The units dont die so easily. Now when we say fast paced I dont mean the speed of the game like normal and faster but i mean to say that the health pools of the units is too low and the damage output is too high. What I would like to see is that the health pools of the units to rise and/or the damage to be reduced.
I'd hate that. Turns every unit into a low risk, low reward, Protosslike unit that cannot harass because before it kills something the opponent has put down his cup of tea, tabbed into the game, fed the cat and pulled his stuff out of danger.
yeah cause that'll happen if the game slows down. Let's all just play chess instead right?
I guess you prefer having terrible terrible damage completely wipe out an army while you're macro'ing at home in the 1 second that you don't look at your army
Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
On February 26 2014 07:01 saintforsale wrote: All balance whine aside how do you open solidly as toss now?
Temps which seemed to be the only thing preventing a 2 base allin (+workers) seem throughly nerfed.
Colossus every game just like wings?
What about PvZ, seems that all aggressive options are countered by hydra now.
No whine just honestly courious.
how does the patch change 2 base templar opening? Learn to scout with drones again or observer (currently it feels some protoss "forgot" how to do that, as it wasn't needed), leave the MSC at home. It is a defensive unit. They should also remove recall so it isn't that useful in offensive maneuvres anymore.
Being less greedy could also bei an option (going from 1 base and harassement into 2 base and then later)
If this forum had a mute function I'd use it right now. You come in here pretty much only whining "Terran too weak, Protoss too strong", go passive aggressive on someone who is slightly scared of the new widow mines and even drop some dumb balance suggestion while not considering why they were implemented in the first place. A slightly more positive attitude might be appropriate given that a negative one grants precisely 0 advantages.
By the way Protoss players aren't the only one forgetting techniques. There was a time when occasionally Terrans would walk out with 4 rax worth of marines after FEing to snipe a bunch of sentries. It took a good while until Polt showed that a pre stim moveout might be worth a shot against blink builds. I actually noticed MMA doing WM drops after expo to achieve the same a while earlier. So figure something out. It's a RTS.
didnt say only toss forget how to use this or that. Example: saw this awful game reality vs... symbol? Dunno the one that took over 2hrs. And the zerg continued to send locust waves over and over vs the terran mech army, but they didn't do a thing because of the PDDs. Same day I watched Stephanos Stream, and he just crushed similar engagements over and over again, by using Tank splash damage: he ran the locusts right next to the tank.
Btw I am sorry if my posts sound like whining, didn'T mean to, I am just glad they fixed a clear inbalance and I dont understand the whining in this thread from the toss, they say their race is now completely useless.
When I was in diaomond, I switched from T because whining alone doesn't make you better, to actually try if the other races really are imba and tried them out, since then I play random for the most part, so I think(!) I have some clue (btw a few weaks after I switched races I wasn't only diamond anymore, so at least I know how to play the game)
On February 26 2014 18:30 Faust852 wrote: Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf.
thats the funny thing in general here. One race always complains... oh now now it is unfair that is wayyy too strong - not really thinking about how to deal with it (or in that case that they already learned how to deal with it)- just because it changes the game a bit. We'll see if something changes.
For the Blink Timings (If they ever get changed), why can't it be like slow blink time at first and then a (cheap) upgrade later on? I think in mid/late game the actual time between blinks is fine, as it is already the case that zerglings always catch up with fleeing stalkers, making them slower... i dont know, doesn't sound right. Would be cool if blink is at first slow, and gets faster with a 2nd upgrade that needs... templar archives or so...
On February 26 2014 16:49 Moobla wrote: Prepare for unforeseen consequences.
When terrans figure out how to abuse vikings + "unlimited" scans in the late game in conjunction with plenty of widow mines, any attempt from protoss to break a terran's frontline will be suicidal.
Yeah they might need to send 1-2 zealots before a-moving ahead.
EPT
