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On February 26 2014 22:14 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins
why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
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On February 26 2014 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 21:56 SC2John wrote:On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote: It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineStimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them. Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second. People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation.
Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them.
Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
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I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
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On February 26 2014 22:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 21:56 SC2John wrote:On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineStimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them. Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second. People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation. Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
You're right, but just as a sidenote; it's definitely possible to kite marines so that they do less damage than they would have if they weren't controlled at all. If you spend too much time running, and not enough time stopping to shoot, they will miss out on potential attacks and do less damage. It's true that you can't cancel attacks, but you will perform worse if you kite incorrectly.
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On February 26 2014 22:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 21:56 SC2John wrote:On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineStimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them. Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second. People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation. Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting.
In terms of design, isn't the hydra superior to the marine then? Someone who kites hydras well is doing something more impressive than someone who kites marines... The problem is that hydras don't seem to need to kite much...
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On February 26 2014 22:21 dargul wrote:Ok terrans will be fine, but look only 3 zerg and 9 toss in Gsl. We should nerf toss air to save the zerg
Zerg did get a nice buff with hydras.
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On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year
Um, that's being a little overdramatic lol
On February 26 2014 22:29 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:14 Chaggi wrote:On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
Um, Templar openings are absolutely superior. Colossus are much more easily hard countered, and the Templar tech path naturally opens up Blink/Charge/Upgrades. Templar are also much better for drop defense.
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On February 26 2014 22:43 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:21 dargul wrote:Ok terrans will be fine, but look only 3 zerg and 9 toss in Gsl. We should nerf toss air to save the zerg Zerg did get a nice buff with hydras.
I don't think the problem with Hydras has ever been the damage they deal.
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On February 26 2014 22:39 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:31 Big J wrote:On February 26 2014 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 21:56 SC2John wrote:On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineStimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them. Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second. People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation. Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting. You're right, but just as a sidenote; it's definitely possible to kite marines so that they do less damage than they would have if they weren't controlled at all. If you spend too much time running, and not enough time stopping to shoot, they will miss out on potential attacks and do less damage. It's true that you can't cancel attacks, but you will perform worse if you kite incorrectly.
sorry. Of course that's possible! I meant when you go too frequent attack/stop. And of course there is the issue that you run out of range as well.
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Blizzard wanted factory to have more uses in TvP back in Hots reveal, good to see they are actually succeeding
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On February 26 2014 22:39 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:31 Big J wrote:On February 26 2014 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 21:56 SC2John wrote:On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineStimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them. Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second. People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation. Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting. In terms of design, isn't the hydra superior to the marine then? Someone who kites hydras well is doing something more impressive than someone who kites marines... The problem is that hydras don't seem to need to kite much...
well, the problem is that kiting is not very efficient, if you only run for 0.2-0.5 seconds, while topterrans can nearly perform moving shots with marines. You just eat many more hits. Also true, due to roaches and lings tanking, you usually dont need them to kite so much (though this again means you are limited to also play like that: hydras only with buffer!)
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On February 26 2014 22:46 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year Um, that's being a little overdramatic lol Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:29 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 22:14 Chaggi wrote:On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something? Um, Templar openings are absolutely superior. Colossus are much more easily hard countered, and the Templar tech path naturally opens up Blink/Charge/Upgrades. Templar are also much better for drop defense.
Exactly, and now you have widow mines doing 80 damage to zealots so, pick your poison on your protoss opening now
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On February 26 2014 22:29 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:14 Chaggi wrote:On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something?
They abandoned colossi opening because templar iss superior especially with the early thirds since with templars, you are only limited by your gas/mineral income. Unless you go double robo (which is a huge investment in the mid game), your colossi production is limited even with the extra income. Plus templars are also much better vs drops (single templar and cannon can hold off a drop while unprotected colossi with cannon cannot even though the colossi is much more expensive).
So no, protoss didn't abandon the colossi opening because they were losing too much to SCV pull.
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On February 26 2014 21:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 16:48 VArsovskiSC wrote:On February 26 2014 16:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
It's always funny to see how fast balance patch threads devolve.
I really think some of the Terran players in this thread are underestimating just how big the buff to WM is against Protoss. It does so much more damage to shield units now. You wanted a way to open that can account for just about everything Protoss can throw at you? Open widow mines...they can zone out blink stalker all-ins (which are further nerfed by the MsC site range nerf), they were already really good against Oracles, and they do way more damage to packs of Zealots and Immortals now. Plus they are cheaper than tanks, so getting WM instead vs Blink either gives you more gas to tech a bit harder, or maybe allows you to cut out a refinery and get more economy with the extra mineral income.
At least, that's what it looks like to me. *shrug* Though funny sounding, but you could actually make Mine into Sky-Terran work vs Protoss possible.. Sky Toss vs Sky Terran?! Stop stop stop...my penis can only get SO erect! Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 18:30 Faust852 wrote:
Why is WM buff such a big deal ? They were much more stronger before the nerf and it wasn't much a problem back in the days, why so much fuss now, when the current buff isn't even close to counterbalance the previous nerf. I don't understand why people keep saying this. It's making the WM stronger than it is currently, why does it matter how completely OP it was before?
The very fun fact is that it wasn't OP. TvP isn't in T favor since 1 month after HOTS release, and the mine nerf came way after that.
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On February 26 2014 23:03 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:46 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year Um, that's being a little overdramatic lol On February 26 2014 22:29 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 22:14 Chaggi wrote:On February 26 2014 22:11 shivver wrote:On February 26 2014 04:53 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 26 2014 04:51 starslayer wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. to #1 isnt that the point blink is crazy right now and seems like theres no risks to it at all and its an all in The problem with blink has always been the timing, and that it transitions quite well into other techs which allows Toss to fake out what they are doing. It's not ever been the cooldown of the ability that was the problem. I'm so glad they decided not to change that. I think the MsC sight range nerf and widow mine buff vs shields will be sufficient to give Terrans better tools. I'm a tad worried that Templar openings are going to be a lot more difficult now with buffed mines, but we'll see. This is what I'm very very concerned about, templar openings might be dead which leaves you with collosi openings, which leaves you with scv pulls every game for the win I would not be surprised to see protoss not with another tournament all year I didn't realize that SCV pull means automatic wins why do you think toss have all but abandoned collosi openings? Do you think it was because they were so uber good or something? Um, Templar openings are absolutely superior. Colossus are much more easily hard countered, and the Templar tech path naturally opens up Blink/Charge/Upgrades. Templar are also much better for drop defense. Exactly, and now you have widow mines doing 80 damage to zealots so, pick your poison on your protoss opening now
Isn't that the whole point of balance? Why should protoss have a build that is always advantageous even if your opponent knows the exact build you are doing. Terrans can't go ghosts if opponent is going colossi and can't go vikings if opponent is going templar.
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On February 26 2014 22:39 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:31 Big J wrote:On February 26 2014 22:01 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 21:56 SC2John wrote:On February 26 2014 21:06 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:It's the wrong hydralisk change. There are so many better options! This just makes them even more either "a-move" or "sit and shoot". Increased the rate of fire makes micro worse because of the increased damage output you MISS OUT ON when moving. I suspect the mine change is going to be too strong against protoss, but we'll see. Vision nerf is the only great change and it can obviously be scaled back to some degree if it's too strong, but I think 9 should be good actually. Protoss has phoenixes, hallucinated phoenixes and oracles for easy vision on fast, flying units and they also have Revelation too so I really think the mothership needn't also have great (let alone the obscene 14) vision radius. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MarineStimmed marines have a DPS of 0.57387. People still kite with them. Not DPS, Attack speed. DPS = Damage/Second. People kite with Stimmed marines because the marine damage point is early in the animation; Hydralisk deal damage late in their animation. Exactly. Marines have a damage point of 0. That means it is impossible to "overkite them" (cancel shots). You basically get to spam as much as you want with them and it's never going to be worse than not controlling them. Hydralisks have a damage point of 0.2080. So you have 0.2080 seconds in which you can cancel the attack animation of hydralisks and do no damage at all, if you give move commands. So you have to be very precise with kiting them and you only have ~0.5seconds of running between shots (theoretically). Practically probably only like 0.25seconds, unless you want to risk overkiting. In terms of design, isn't the hydra superior to the marine then? Someone who kites hydras well is doing something more impressive than someone who kites marines... The problem is that hydras don't seem to need to kite much...
Yeah, kiting Hydras effectively is harder in the sense that it requires more precise timing, but the increase in performance you get out of it is also smaller. There's a limit too how fast you can kite them without cancling attacks, meaning that the potential skill ceiling is lower. Not necessarily bad design; it's just that it means kiting Hydras will usually make less of a difference than kiting marines. This is even more true if you take into account that Hydras are slower and will move less when kited. If you have to fall back with hydras, chances are higher that you will be caught up and killed anyway than with marines.
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On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up.
The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
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On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line. Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro.
Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line.
Well, you have oracle. And protoss have mass recall, warping, photons and nexus cannon against widow mines. So I don't see here any problems
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On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line. Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro. Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game.
I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late 
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EPT
