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Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence?
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On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
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On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote:
Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence?
Well, you can use part of the 100/100 to upgrade Cloak, yes, but you still need a lot of energy if you want to use EMPs + Cloak.
On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
6 lines to say essentially nothing relevant/interesting is overkill.
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On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Other than the "since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game" I think everything you said is accurate. It's buffing a thing about Terran that was never an issue in the first place. Terran is strong in the mid-game.
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On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote:
Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence?
Well, as a result you get cloak faster because you don't have to take the time to research it. So while it's true that the Ghosts arrived at the Protoss base with energy for EMP anyway, they will have cloak now whereas they didn't before.
So that is actually a bigger buff IMO.
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On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
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On February 06 2014 05:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote:
Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence? Well, you can use part of the 100/100 to upgrade Cloak, yes, but you still need a lot of energy if you want to use EMPs + Cloak. Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do. 6 lines to say essentially nothing relevant/interesting is overkill.
Ok so you're just full of crap. You probably aren't top 50 GM at all, but you say it to sounds smart(which still doesn't cut it) and you refuse to actually prove you are. And frankly you sound like the most obnoxious, condescending person on the planet every time you reference your "top 50 GM" and have never once to me actually shown this at all. Plenty of pros who are way better than you say plenty of things that shouldn't be taken seriously and your appealing to authority is ridiculous.
You were illogical in turning his post about what pro players said into what he said.
Furthermore, you don't make any sense. Ghosts slow marauder production yes, but marauders aren't terribly useful in late game anyways. A mostly charge lot tanking force doesn't take very much damage from marauders, and they aren't needed for anything else, Vikings should be battling colossi, not marauders. And it doesn't have any effect realistically on medivac production, that is halted by the building of Vikings. Also, Terran is rarely at a shortage of gas playing bio which makes medivac and ghost production a nonissue. Marauders have been shown in the late game by pros to simply not be that good, and they should be phased out when you need ghosts.
If Terran timings and mid game are weaker because of the mothership core, then why are Terrans producing less ghosts. Would it not make sense for Terran to build more ghosts if they are forced into late game? Building less of a late game unit when you have to play more late game is counterintuitive. I'm not going to argue that the ghost buff is very helpful, it isn't. But saying ghosts, a late game unit as you described them, are not as good in a metagame where Terran needs to play more late game? That doesn't make sense.
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I'm just going to miss screwing zergs over on daed point with hellion banshee runbys  all in all I don't think the ghost patch is goign to change much if anything its just going to get Terran Renerfed somehow LOL Some Terran Ace is goign to abuse it and the next day Blizzard will patch it LOL!
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On February 06 2014 06:20 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do. You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
Knowledge and proof of top 50 GM are different. He appears to know a lot and he's right on at least 1 point. But saying "I'm top 50 GM so I'm automatically smarter than you" is obnoxious as hell
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On February 06 2014 07:13 Wingblade wrote:
But saying "I'm top 50 GM so I'm automatically smarter than you" is obnoxious as hell
This.
But also, he's right on a lot of things.
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So basically Terrans get 1 EMP now. With the patch they will get either 2 EMPs w/ 100/100 in their pocket or 1 EMP and cloak. I think cloak as part of an EMP allin would be pretty nifty.
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On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
I'm surprised he even made that post, the thread were TL asked some of the pros how they felt about the current balance changes and most feed back from pro Terrans on their streams, is where I got my information, The Ghost change is something they all agreed is a good change and allows for a better transition vs storm play. Not sure why that guy got all offensive and had to rage and say hes "gm i'm god and smarter than you" Pretty silly.
You can find that thread on the first page or 2nd in the General sc2 section if he wants to go look at what the Pro Terrans had to say, which I'm sure they have a better understanding of this game than any of us in this thread.
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On February 06 2014 06:51 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:44 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote:
Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence? Well, you can use part of the 100/100 to upgrade Cloak, yes, but you still need a lot of energy if you want to use EMPs + Cloak. On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do. 6 lines to say essentially nothing relevant/interesting is overkill. Ok so you're just full of crap. You probably aren't top 50 GM at all, but you say it to sounds smart(which still doesn't cut it) and you refuse to actually prove you are. And frankly you sound like the most obnoxious, condescending person on the planet every time you reference your "top 50 GM" and have never once to me actually shown this at all. Plenty of pros who are way better than you say plenty of things that shouldn't be taken seriously and your appealing to authority is ridiculous.
1. Do you think I care one single second whether you believe me or not?
2. I mentioned my ranking because the poster said "Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about?" It had nothing to do with "appealing to authority".
3. Fairly sure I didn't make a reference to "top50 GM" numerous times in the past since I had not been top50 since like 4 seasons, and unlike what you insinuate I do not inflate my ranking "to sound smarter" (I did not even pretend I was smarter, so stop putting words in my mouth) or boast.
Furthermore, you don't make any sense. Ghosts slow marauder production yes, but marauders aren't terribly useful in late game anyways.
Except if you had vaguely taken some time to read my post before going berserk, you would have understood I was not at all talking about lategame but midgame attacks with Ghosts.
Also, Terran is rarely at a shortage of gas playing bio which makes medivac and ghost production a nonissue.
Lol. Of course Terran is gas-starved when building Ghosts and Medivacs (or Vikings); if you actually want to play lategame as you describe, you'll even immediately take your 7th and 8th geyser upon taking your fourth because upgrades + mass Ghosts/Vikings production require so much gas. Only low-tech bio (i. e. precisely Ghost-free compositions) can stay on 4 or 5 geysers.
Besides, when you say a unit is expensive, it's not only about gas. Ghosts still cost 200 minerals and 40 seconds of rax lab production (only 3 rax lab at the beginning of midgame, then 5).
If Terran timings and mid game are weaker because of the mothership core, then why are Terrans producing less ghosts. Would it not make sense for Terran to build more ghosts if they are forced into late game? Building less of a late game unit when you have to play more late game is counterintuitive. I'm not going to argue that the ghost buff is very helpful, it isn't. But saying ghosts, a late game unit as you described them, are not as good in a metagame where Terran needs to play more late game? That doesn't make sense.
Who said that? Terrans still desperately try to win by midgame because they pretty much auto-lose by lategame (4+ bases scenarii). So no, it does not make much sense to build a unit that slows down your tempo when you only have a 4-5 minuts window to seize to win—unless you want to hit a +2 attack and/or pre-Colossus switch timing like the one I mentioned with the Mvp vs San game.
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On February 06 2014 07:13 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 06:20 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do. You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody. Knowledge and proof of top 50 GM are different. He appears to know a lot and he's right on at least 1 point. But saying "I'm top 50 GM so I'm automatically smarter than you" is obnoxious as hell
I think the other guy needed to be called out. Too bad no-one else did.
As for proof, you do realize you're asking for him to reveal his smurf, right? But, anyway, you can track his official ladder record via sc2ranks: http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/eu/11001183103/downfall You can see where he is now, where he has been before, his best and worst. Best this season I could find was 16th in Europe.
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On February 06 2014 06:20 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do. You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
No ones calling out anyone, instead of being ignorant yourself, maybe read what the real Korean Pros had to say about the changes, which is all I stated, before insulting people on the TL forums. You can ask any Pro Terran about the Ghost changes. The Korean Terrans and the Pro NA/EU Terrans do have a better understanding, just because you write guides on TL does not mean you are a pro and know everything. That's all I stated, the current Pros are very happy, and it makes sense as well.
Raging and calling these changes useless is nonsense. FYI the whole "i'm gm i'm gm" is silly, no need to even do that. People get so hostile these days.
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On February 06 2014 07:42 LingBlingBling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 06:20 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote:
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players. Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do. You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody. No ones calling out anyone, instead of being ignorant yourself, maybe read what the real Korean Pros had to say about the changes, which is all I stated, before insulting people on the TL forums. You can ask any Pro Terran about the Ghost changes. The Korean Terrans and the Pro NA/EU Terrans do have a better understanding, just because you write guides on TL does not mean you are a pro and know everything. That's all I stated, the current Pros are very happy, and it makes sense as well. Raging and calling these changes useless is nonsense. FYI the whole "i'm gm i'm gm" is silly, no need to even do that. People get so hostile these days.
You're being rude and patronizing, while getting your facts wrong, you deserve worse than you got.
As for
maybe read what the real Korean Pros had to say about the changes, which is all I stated, before insulting people on the TL forums. You can ask any Pro Terran about the Ghost changes. The Korean Terrans and the Pro NA/EU Terrans do have a better understanding, just because you write guides on TL does not mean you are a pro and know everything. That's all I stated, the current Pros are very happy, and it makes sense as well.
Let's read what they had to say about the ghost:
Jjakji:
About Ghost, blizzard said it will be helpful with mechanic [mech compositions] but i don't think its much help mechanic. I think it gives more power with bionic [bio - marine marauder] play. Its a nice patch but we need to see it for a while [if it is] good or not. [Against] high templar basic mana will be problem because player can use them after make unit but ghost need to walk they get mana between time so i dont know its over patch or so so. [the intention here is as follows: since when attacking, ghosts walk cross map they should already have energy for emp
MMA
Ghost energy change is good :D
Notice, that's ALL MMA said. No explanation of any kind. But he did add:
Mothership vision, please change.
The photon overcharge and time warp changes are very good, but not enough.
So, surely, the ghost change isn't sufficient in his mind.
Libo:
Ghosts: Seems like a redundant buff, Terran is only strong in the mid game (when they're not being all-ined) so it's making the strongest Terran point a little bit stronger (still doesn't have that much of an impact).
That's all that was said on the ghost by terrans.
So, do explain to us how those pro's all think the ghost is great and will solve all problems.
***
Edit:
By request, Ryung said:
If they change 2 things in PvT like that, PvT will be so good for Terran.
I have no idea about hydralisk and tempest because I'm Terran."
No idea how to interpret that.
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Canada13389 Posts
We really shouldn't take the pro post as bible.
They hadn't played it and were looking at the ghost invacuum. I wouldnt be surprised if we see Terrans learn to:
1) recognize the HT openings
2) divert the cost of energy upgrade into cloak (saving 100/100 in the process)
3) hitting a timing with cloak AND the additional energy that ghosts come out with so they can both cloak and they can emp.
Now this wont happen every game, and the change to ghosts is very situational. Maybe it will help defensive timings as mech continues to gain popularity in Korea, but who knows.
Also: TheDwf is smart, and he has a point, right now its not a big change, and it won't flip the matchup on its head. There might be a discovery to be made but I think its a good change to help terrans but it wasnt a NECESSARY nor was it the most IMPACTFUL change, and it also does not address the lack of depth in Terran aggression and openers in TvP. It only provides a bit of an extra tool for the midgame.
Might this tool help slow down the protoss late game strength? maybe, but its hard to say if it will or won't without a few weeks or months until the possibilities get figured out.
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So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
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On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Not the outcome of that single game where the MSC built up 200 energy? I know its weird, but they arn't going to nerf blink all-ins into the ground any more than they are going to nerf the SCV pull.
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You get to quote Ryung too, Ghan. Quoting him doesn't hurt your point, and not quoting him makes it look like you're trying to help your point across.
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EPT
