"We’d like to make a small balance patch this week in order to help address PvT concerns, as well as implement a small fix for Daedalus point. Of the changes we’ve tested so far, we feel ready to make the Time Warp and EMP changes right now, but we’ll continue testing other changes as well in case we need to make further adjustments.
We’ll try our best to make these changes within a week:
Time Warp cost increased from 75 to 100.
Ghosts start with the energy upgrade built in.
Make the natural expansion ramp smaller on Daedalus Point.
Here are a few things we’d like to continue testing on a new balance test map:
We’d like to try out a sight range nerf to the Mothership Core, as commonly requested by the community. We also believe this could be a really solid direction if the Time Warp and EMP changes aren’t enough.
We’d still like to include a Hydralisk buff (but not as big as the current one we’re testing) of some sort for two reasons: To bring more Hydras into play in ZvZ as well as help Roach/Hydra to be more viable vs. Terran.
Late game PvZ in Europe is something we’d still like to look into testing/addressing. Looking at games in Korea, we’d still like to keep testing the Tempest change and not touch Swarm Hosts themselves if we can.
Please keep the discussions happening and constructive feedback is always welcome. Thank you."
As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
There was a good suggestion in the reddit thread with the Mothership retaining the current sight range (MsC sight still reduced). All in all, everything looks great with the exception of their views on SH, although it may be a design issue that handcuffs the balance team.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
There was a good suggestion in the reddit thread with the Mothership retaining the current sight range (MsC sight still reduced). All in all, everything looks great with the exception of their views on SH, although it may be a design issue that handcuffs the balance team.
I'm not sure you can really 'balance' the Swamhost in it's current design. It's a unit that snowballs incredibly. If they would nerf it, it would probably be the end for the Swarmhost completely in HoTS. I think they'll change it up for the next expansion where they can change the way it functions.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Constant cloaking field sometimes worths it, if snipe detectors.
I am happy to read this note, I feel blizzard is on the same line as us and I really like how they wanna to try out other ways to patch instead of immediately running to see what the community want the change to be.
I wish Blizzard would consider the feedback from professional players before dreaming up balance patches. The pros in the TL article all seemed to agree that the proper way to fix the MSC was to reduce its vision. They all seemed to think the Ghost buff was random. At least the weird Hydra and Tempest changes were put off, but it seems like Blizzard is intent on going through with them some later time. And Blizzard explicitly stated that it didn't want to change swarm hosts . . .
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
its an issue if you want to expand as protoss.
The race played does not determine the expand ability. That is wholly dependent on (1) player skill, (2) builds chosen by both players, and (3) working knowledge of the units and the game in general.
Nice to see they took the feedback about msc range into consideration and added. Daedelus smaller ramp will make zvt a bit less of a nightmare against helions althought i doubt this effect zvz in anyway. The main thing that makes 14/14 so strong on that map is the distance from the mainramp to the natural so queens blocking the ramp can't defend hatch and spine at natural can't defend ramp. Althought i don't really mind having one map like this. 14/14 is fun and in a mirror matchup it's at least fair either way.
Still dunno about hydra buff.. I don't think they need that much of a buff really..they're already used in all 3 mu whatever they say. I see them every zvz against my mutas and.. buffed hydras may push muta styles from being still common into not used.
Now all I want to see is that they nerf mech away again.. every zvt these days so boring. Maybe make pdd ignore biological attacks
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
It's the ONLY issue with the map. The rest of the map is fine as far as I'm concerned. But that natural ramp makes the map absolutely stupid for Protoss vs Zerg.
On February 04 2014 04:29 Incand wrote: Nice to see they took the feedback about msc range into consideration and added. Daedelus smaller ramp will make zvt a bit less of a nightmare against helions althought i doubt this effect zvz in anyway. The main thing that makes 14/14 so strong on that map is the distance from the mainramp to the natural so queens blocking the ramp can't defend hatch and spine at natural can't defend ramp. Althought i don't really mind having one map like this. 14/14 is fun and in a mirror matchup it's at least fair either way.
Still dunno about hydra buff.. I don't think they need that much of a buff really..they're already used in all 3 mu whatever they say. I see them every zvz against my mutas and.. buffed hydras may push muta styles from being still common into not used.
Now all I want to see is that they nerf mech away again.. every zvt these days so boring. Maybe make pdd ignore biological attacks
Yea it looks like I'm going to have to stop opening double factory hellions in TvZ on that map now. :/ oh well.
The reason the map is being changed though is for PvZ, that's the only match up that was REALLY affected by the map and that's the reason they're specifically targetting the ramp.
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
It's the ONLY issue with the map. The rest of the map is fine as far as I'm concerned. But that natural ramp makes the map absolutely stupid for Protoss vs Zerg.
Daedalus point isn't exactly a picnic for the other matchup too. Long distance between natural and ramp, tons of space around the minerals and a comically wide ramp are a really volitile mix. It's what made the map interesting.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Constant cloaking field sometimes worths it, if snipe detectors.
The only pros I've ever seen upgrade to Mothership in HotS is occasionally against swarm host play but that rarely has much of a point since the Zerg will just make a viper and abduct and kill your mothership.
I like this announcement, particularly the fix to Daedalus and confirming that they're looking at Swarm Host play.
If they nerf MSC sight range, Blizzard should also reduce the research time for Blinkstalkers back to what it was prior to the last increase, since the reason it was increased in the first place is MSC/blinkstalker attacks. Now Protoss will go back to needing observers again to make blinkstalkers offensively viable. One unfortunate result of this change is that it'll go (somewhat) back down the road of forcing Protoss to always go robo again.
I still think the hydra buff sounds bizarre, though I'm glad to hear they're now thinking of something less extreme than HALVING their gas cost. It's true hydras don't get a lot of use in ZvT, but they've been used in ZvZ since WoL and are a stable of ZvP. I'm not sure how you buff hydras to force their use in ZvT without unbalancing ZvP. Besides, what's the big deal that they're not used in ZvT? There have always been units that don't get used in one matchup and no one has minded as long as they're used in the others. Like void rays aren't used in PvT, widow mines not much used in TvP, etc.
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
It's the ONLY issue with the map. The rest of the map is fine as far as I'm concerned. But that natural ramp makes the map absolutely stupid for Protoss vs Zerg.
Daedalus point isn't exactly a picnic for the other matchup too. Long distance between natural and ramp, tons of space around the minerals and a comically wide ramp are a really volitile mix. It's what made the map interesting.
It isn't a picnic for ANY match up, which is fine but the ramp was the only one creating actual severe problems that couldn't be worked around.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Constant cloaking field sometimes worths it, if snipe detectors.
True. But, I'd really like to see Recall to Mothership added, at say an energy cost of 125 or 150.
That would really make the MS worth getting especially in late game PvZ.
Edit/ I like the TW nerf. I dislike that spell. Bringing the MSC vision down to 11 sounds good. Not sure about EMP. I dislike the fact that more upgrades are being removed from the game. It feels crude and inelegant.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Constant cloaking field sometimes worths it, if snipe detectors.
The only pros I've ever seen upgrade to Mothership in HotS is occasionally against swarm host play but that rarely has much of a point since the Zerg will just make a viper and abduct/snipe your mothership.
I like this announcement, particularly the fix to Daedalus and confirming that they're looking at Swarm Host play.
If they nerf MSC sight range, Blizzard should also reduce the research time for Blinkstalkers back to what it was prior to the last increase, since the reason it was increased in the first place is MSC/blinkstalker attacks. Now Protoss will go back to needing observers again to make blinkstalkers offensively viable. One unfortunate result of this change is that it'll go (somewhat) back down the road of forcing Protoss to always go robo again.
I still think the hydra buff sounds bizarre, though I'm glad to hear they're now thinking of something less extreme than HALVING their gas cost. It's true hydras don't get a lot of use in ZvT, but they've been used in ZvZ since WoL and are a stable of ZvP. I'm not sure how you buff hydras to force their use in ZvT without unbalancing ZvP. Besides, what's the big deal that they're not used in ZvT? There have always been units that don't get used in one matchup and no one has minded as long as they're used in the others. Like void rays aren't used in PvT, widow mines not much used in TvP, etc.
No they won't.
Blink will still be viable with the Mothership Core as a spotter only it's now easier to snipe the Mothership Core if you aren't careful with it.
Makes it easier for Terran to defend, but not to the point where the build is all of a sudden not viable.
Really nice that they consider the sight range nerf on the MSC.
Edit: As for the Hydra buff, I think removing the range upgrade (hydras spawn with it) and adding hive upgrade for extra HP and or a better anti air attack would be sick.
the ghost change was done specifically to help mech, so that could help him also time warp a little bit
Oh don't be naive.
The Ghost change is as much a buff to Bio as it is to Mech. They targeted Ghosts specifically because of the overall complaints about TvP, if they wanted to actually address Mech they'd do it elsewhere.
One of the chief complaints with Mech against Protoss is how reliant they already are on Ghosts and what that means to their options as a match progresses. Simply saying "well here have a free EMP upgrade" doesn't change that problem it just makes using Ghosts less of a pain, which applies equally to Bio users.
the ghost change was done specifically to help mech, so that could help him also time warp a little bit
Oh don't be naive.
The Ghost change is as much a buff to Bio as it is to Mech. They targeted Ghosts specifically because of the overall complaints about TvP, if they wanted to actually address Mech they'd do it elsewhere.
One of the chief complaints with Mech against Protoss is how reliant they already are on Ghosts and what that means to their options as a match progresses. Simply saying "well here have a free EMP upgrade" doesn't change that problem it just makes using Ghosts less of a pain, which applies equally to Bio users.
Yea I know it's a buff to both styles, my point was that it could help mech, I didn't say it would help mech more than bio.
Seems like they just followed the polls instead of listening to pro players. That is, the poll in the original thread was for the ghost change, but most pros were against it.
Also I hope they know the community wants MSC vision range to be nerfed. David Kim only said "range" which is worrisome.
I really looked at the ghost change as a buff to bio, maybe I'm forgetting something but since when did we see mech/ghost compositions in TvP? I looked at SuperNova's games against Stats and he wasn't making ghosts. Anyway ghosts are so good against P, especially now, that I guess it's a general buff to T in TvP.
On February 04 2014 04:58 Yakikorosu wrote: I really looked at the ghost change as a buff to bio, maybe I'm forgetting something but since when did we see mech/ghost compositions in TvP? I looked at SuperNova's games against Stats and he wasn't making ghosts. Anyway ghosts are so good against P, especially now, that I guess it's a general buff to T in TvP.
IMO it just gives terran the option to do a slightly later SCV pull with EMPs, and doesn't change late game at all.
Nerf the msc vision to 11 like every other air unit in the game. Nerf the PO range slightly and/or increase the energy cost and/or reduce casting range as per miniguns suggestion, but keep its 60sec duration as that only truly affects pvp. Instead of removing yet another upgrade (ghost), I really wish youd chosen to reduce the cost of the armory instead. Its virtually the same cost-reduction for terran regardless, but one actually helps mech. Please dont pretend to buff mech by buffing bio. You have no credibility in that department anymore, not after years and years of promising to make mech viable. But oh well... Remove the biotag from the hellbat. It makes zero sense to have a mechanical unit become a biounit just because it transforms. The ability of being healed is part of what made hellbat op in drops in the first place and at the same time it makes them shit against archons. Merge transformation servos and blueflame into one upgrade. Possibly with a longer upgradetime.
Things worth to consider but not to be done right now: give tanks an upgrade that lets them attack shield more effectively. Basically "EMP Shells".
PvZ: The problem isnt lategame tempests, the problem is the swarmhost! Some pros have suggested removing the enduring locust upgrade and instead let the swarmhost be faster both with burrowing/unborrowing and when moving around on the map. This could be either as an upgrade or as a fundamental change to the unit. Basically reward multitasking with swarmhosts instead of the boring, long, drawn out static play we're seeing. Others have more very good suggestions on how to improve the swarmhost and there are many possible ways to do so; please consider looking at the swarmhost instead of yet another bandaid with tempest.
Consider removing the tempest entirely and make the carrier into more of a bw-carrier where more micro is possible. The tempest is a truly wonky unit that makes very little sense intuitively with its minimal damage to everything but massive, and having air units with such range is terrible design as air units dont really interact with the map in the first place (they only do so transitively by interacting with counters on the ground) and long range reduces that even further.
TvZ:
Buff the radius of vipers blinding cloud but instead of nullifying range under it let it reduce range by a set number (as in reduce every units range by x, not reduce every units range to x). That way blinding cloud is less of a hard counter to mech and becomes more viable vs bio. Consider nerfing ravens slightly in conjunction with proposed swarmhost changes. That in conjunction with changes to viper will result in less risk of turtle-terrans.
People, if you like any of these suggestion please repeat them. Maybe blizzard will actually listen to us for once (unlikely).
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
It's the ONLY issue with the map. The rest of the map is fine as far as I'm concerned. But that natural ramp makes the map absolutely stupid for Protoss vs Zerg.
Main to Natural ramp distances, the openness of the third, the distance to the forth, the lack of any terrain features accross the map, the fact you're ALWAYS in the open when attacking, openness to aerial threats, silly Ruin-esque wall offs, no the rest of the map seems completely fine!
I actually like Daedalus Point. Though I do see the problem with Protoss but that forces them to innovate instead of the same settle of play as in every other map regarding that ramp.
On February 04 2014 05:06 HornyHerring wrote: Cant wait for those TvP unbeatable timings. )))))))) Hope I'm wrong.
As has been often said.
If you were going to do a Ghost timing attack vs Protoss, the amount of time needed for the Ghost to walk across the map is sufficient to gather energy for an EMP.
This change won't change that, it might allow for 2 EMPs per Ghost. MAYBE.
What this does help is an emergency situation vs Archons or something and you have a late Ghost Academy.
The ghost patch is just stupid. It's a bone to the Terrans that doesn't address late game at all. Nobody is losing TvP because their ghosts don't have enough energy.
Time warp is a slight nerf, but honestly it's only an issue w Blink allins and you can still cast 3 w full energy. Most blink allins are decided by the first time warp anyway. Just make the maps less blink friendly to address that.
Glad the Hydra buff didn't make it in. It was stupid. You can't halve the gas cost of a core unit in a MU (ZvP) without affecting other MU.
SWARM HOST NEEDS A FIX. Get rid of enduring locusts, make them regen faster and let the S/H burrow quicker. LIKE EVERYONE HAS SAID.
The problem with blinding cloud vs. mech is that tanks can't move out from under it. Maybe if they made it reduce the range by a certain amount it would be okay? Or if it only worked on bio?
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
It's the ONLY issue with the map. The rest of the map is fine as far as I'm concerned. But that natural ramp makes the map absolutely stupid for Protoss vs Zerg.
Main to Natural ramp distances, the openness of the third, the distance to the forth, the lack of any terrain features accross the map, the fact you're ALWAYS in the open when attacking, openness to aerial threats, silly Ruin-esque wall offs, no the rest of the map seems completely fine!
All of those things suck, but they all suck for ALL of the races.
That's what makes it fine.
The ramp isn't fine because it sucks WAY more for Protoss ONLY vs Zerg than it does for anyone else.
It's fine if you don't like Daedalus Point, the map does everything it can to make you uncomfortable, that's the whole point of it.
On February 04 2014 05:06 HornyHerring wrote: Cant wait for those TvP unbeatable timings. )))))))) Hope I'm wrong.
As has been often said.
If you were going to do a Ghost timing attack vs Protoss, the amount of time needed for the Ghost to walk across the map is sufficient to gather energy for an EMP.
This change won't change that, it might allow for 2 EMPs per Ghost. MAYBE.
What this does help is an emergency situation vs Archons or something and you have a late Ghost Academy.
Well, if they start with enough for one, and it takes the walk across to earn the enrgy for another, each ghost will have 2 emps.
I can't wait for all the SCV pulls with EMP allins we will see. FML
lol well now our chances of seeing Mech in TvP at the pro level have gone from 5% to 1%. Players are just going to be infinitely more inclined to go Bio forever now with Ghosts that spawn with EMP. Great job Blizzard! #Diversity
Bit sad that the general direction is to remove potential decisions and points of optimizations in builds, of course it's a non-issue with regards of buffing, but I much rather that they keep the complexity.
Maybe in the end those upgrades are just there for legacy / balance and I'm being overly attached
Hmm. Radical idea here - when was the last time you saw ravens in common usage? They get used with mech, right? How about giving Ravens some form of EMP (a la science vessels of old). That might be more help to mech (which usually progresses into some form of skyterran with ravens anyways) than saying "Lol! Build more Barracks and a Ghost Academy!"
Also, lower the gas cost just a smidge.
That might help, it might not, I just want to see epic seeker missiles.
On February 04 2014 05:20 vesz wrote: Bit sad that the general direction is to remove potential decisions and points of optimizations in builds, of course it's a non-issue with regards of buffing, but I much rather that they keep the complexity.
Maybe in the end those upgrades are just there for legacy / balance and I'm being overly attached
I don't think the energy upgrades on ghosts really added much complexity, though. If ghost rush builds were more relevant (like if we still had a usable snipe on ghosts, heh), it definitely would add a wrinkle, but the upgrade as it stands doesn't add any nuances, because it simply serves as an extra "ehh probably should get it at this point" resource dump.
Energy upgrades make a little more sense for a unit like the infestor because they can be mass-produced and (in ZvZ especially) the timing can be messed with. It actually affords some interaction between players.
On February 04 2014 05:20 vesz wrote: Bit sad that the general direction is to remove potential decisions and points of optimizations in builds, of course it's a non-issue with regards of buffing, but I much rather that they keep the complexity.
Maybe in the end those upgrades are just there for legacy / balance and I'm being overly attached
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel, too. It seems like Blizzard is mutating SC2 into a game of players just churning out an army and slamming them together. I understand that they want more action in games and want "balance", but the game is becoming more and more one-dimensional. Really, these changes do not factor in the game as a whole. They are just putting in Y when X needs addressing, and then Z when Y needs addressing, but they don't look at how Z affects X or the whole game. If I may say, it is very hard-counter-esque way of addressing these concerns and ignores the fundamentals.
Nevertheless, I am looking forward to any changes.
I like the idea of making roach hydra viper viable against terran. Atm it feels like the only possibility Zerg has in ZvT is going ling baneling muta. The match up would be better if they could also use different compositions. Part of the problem here might be how ridiculously strong mutas are right now compared to the other options that zerg has. Imo they should make the muta regen a hive tech upgrade.
Also, it's time to accept that the swarm host is structurally flawed and will only make for boring turtly games. A big redesign of the unit is needed.
timewarp energy cost increase is fine ghost buff is ridiculous and yeah deadelous point jesus the mapmaker must have been drunk while making that. instant veto.. lets hope they do a proper fix
On February 04 2014 04:55 Cheren wrote: Seems like they just followed the polls instead of listening to pro players. That is, the poll in the original thread was for the ghost change, but most pros were against it.
Also I hope they know the community wants MSC vision range to be nerfed. David Kim only said "range" which is worrisome.
pros said a buff and a nerf is to much in pvt. And if they decrease the vision range of the MsC it will stop being used aggressive or for scouting, because it will get sniped left and right since it is to slow to avoid enemies. Right afterwards Protoss will die to early aggression just like in the good old times. And then the MsC will get a speed buff ...
On February 04 2014 04:55 Cheren wrote: Seems like they just followed the polls instead of listening to pro players. That is, the poll in the original thread was for the ghost change, but most pros were against it.
Also I hope they know the community wants MSC vision range to be nerfed. David Kim only said "range" which is worrisome.
pros said a buff and a nerf is to much in pvt. And if they decrease the vision range of the MsC it will stop being used aggressive or for scouting, because it will get sniped left and right since it is to slow to avoid enemies. Right afterwards Protoss will die to early aggression just like in the good old times. And then the MsC will get a speed buff ...
Bunch of ideas for a hydralisk buff. Would love it if other people quoted and added their ideas. Maybe we can get a reasonable list going.
- Grooved Spines increase attack range by +2 or - Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Grooved Spines increases attack range to 7. Either of those increases the zoning capability against air, and makes hydralisks able to fire from a safer distance.
- Hydralisk attack changed to do 15 (+2 per ugprade) damage with an attack cooldown of 1.05 The basic damage output stays the same, but the Hydralisk gets a little bit better at sniping fast moving targets such as medivacs and frontloaded damage is in general a little bit better than more steady damage output. On top of that, hydralisks now upgrade with +2 which makes them stronger in fully upgraded lategame scenarios. And the slower attack speed allows for a little bit extra kiting capability.
- Hydralisk hit points from 80 to 90 or - Hydralisk Armor from 0 to 1 Either of those makes hydralisks a little beefier.
- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0. Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly.
They will never make roach/hydra a thing in ZvT as long as both these units are two supply. You cannot trade well against a stimmed bio army with medivacs with roach/hydra, it just won't happen. If that is the motivation for buffing hydras, I'd rather see them just forget it and maybe change corruptors a bit.
The tempest change is still kind of wonky but at least hey get that they can't nerf swarm hosts.
On February 04 2014 05:20 vesz wrote: Bit sad that the general direction is to remove potential decisions and points of optimizations in builds, of course it's a non-issue with regards of buffing, but I much rather that they keep the complexity.
Maybe in the end those upgrades are just there for legacy / balance and I'm being overly attached
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel, too. It seems like Blizzard is mutating SC2 into a game of players just churning out an army and slamming them together. I understand that they want more action in games and want "balance", but the game is becoming more and more one-dimensional. Really, these changes do not factor in the game as a whole. They are just putting in Y when X needs addressing, and then Z when Y needs addressing, but they don't look at how Z affects X or the whole game. If I may say, it is very hard-counter-esque way of addressing these concerns and ignores the fundamentals.
Nevertheless, I am looking forward to any changes.
A lot of that is the fault of the maps, which usually have 3rd bases which are too close/easy - although if map design were to change drastically then the units would have to be rebalanced as well.
On February 04 2014 05:43 Big J wrote: Bunch of ideas for a hydralisk buff. Would love it if other people quoted and added their ideas. Maybe we can get a reasonable list going.
- Grooved Spines increase attack range by +2 or - Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Grooved Spines increases attack range to 7. Either of those increases the zoning capability against air, and makes hydralisks able to fire from a safer distance.
- Hydralisk attack changed to do 15 (+2 per ugprade) damage with an attack cooldown of 1.05 The basic damage output stays the same, but the Hydralisk gets a little bit better at sniping fast moving targets such as medivacs and frontloaded damage is in general a little bit better than more steady damage output. On top of that, hydralisks now upgrade with +2 which makes them stronger in fully upgraded lategame scenarios. And the slower attack speed allows for a little bit extra kiting capability.
- Hydralisk hit points from 80 to 90 or - Hydralisk Armor from 0 to 1 Either of those makes hydralisks a little beefier.
- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0. Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly.
On February 04 2014 04:25 ETisME wrote: I am happy to read this note, I feel blizzard is on the same line as us and I really like how they wanna to try out other ways to patch instead of immediately running to see what the community want the change to be.
I am upset for exactly the same reasons. Try out other ways? We had them try out "other ways" of nerfing the 4 gate and 1-1-1 for how long? Tried out "other ways" to buff mech other than buffing that tank for how long?
On February 04 2014 05:20 vesz wrote: Bit sad that the general direction is to remove potential decisions and points of optimizations in builds, of course it's a non-issue with regards of buffing, but I much rather that they keep the complexity.
Maybe in the end those upgrades are just there for legacy / balance and I'm being overly attached
Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel, too. It seems like Blizzard is mutating SC2 into a game of players just churning out an army and slamming them together. I understand that they want more action in games and want "balance", but the game is becoming more and more one-dimensional. Really, these changes do not factor in the game as a whole. They are just putting in Y when X needs addressing, and then Z when Y needs addressing, but they don't look at how Z affects X or the whole game. If I may say, it is very hard-counter-esque way of addressing these concerns and ignores the fundamentals.
Nevertheless, I am looking forward to any changes.
A lot of that is the fault of the maps, which usually have 3rd bases which are too close/easy - although if map design were to change drastically then the units would have to be rebalanced as well.
Can't do much more with map design because of FF and protoss needing an accessible third. Making good maps for SC2 is a nightmare. So many limiting factors.
On February 04 2014 05:43 Big J wrote: Bunch of ideas for a hydralisk buff. Would love it if other people quoted and added their ideas. Maybe we can get a reasonable list going.
- Grooved Spines increase attack range by +2 or - Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Grooved Spines increases attack range to 7. Either of those increases the zoning capability against air, and makes hydralisks able to fire from a safer distance.
- Hydralisk attack changed to do 15 (+2 per ugprade) damage with an attack cooldown of 1.05 The basic damage output stays the same, but the Hydralisk gets a little bit better at sniping fast moving targets such as medivacs and frontloaded damage is in general a little bit better than more steady damage output. On top of that, hydralisks now upgrade with +2 which makes them stronger in fully upgraded lategame scenarios. And the slower attack speed allows for a little bit extra kiting capability.
- Hydralisk hit points from 80 to 90 or - Hydralisk Armor from 0 to 1 Either of those makes hydralisks a little beefier.
- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0. Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly.
I like most of these, but I think it might be better to implement the extra hitpoints or armor as a hive upgrade, and then give them one of the other upgrades for free.
Definitely a step in the right direction compared to that horrifying Hydra buff proposed. However, a lot can still be done. I, for one, do not believe Time Warp is nerfed in the right manner. Also, I believe the Ghost buff is a purely timing based change, which I'm not a big fan of. However, PvT's problem is very complex, I think this could be a pretty nice band-aid solution.
On February 04 2014 05:17 IncubusSC wrote: lol well now our chances of seeing Mech in TvP at the pro level have gone from 5% to 1%. Players are just going to be infinitely more inclined to go Bio forever now with Ghosts that spawn with EMP. Great job Blizzard! #Diversity
i play mech tvp and im super happy bout that change lol
I've always wondered why don't more terran plays mix in hellbats into their bio compositions like the way Bomber did at the Red Bull tournament. Even with no mech upgrades and only blue flame, just a few helbats would increase the efficiency a lot against zealots. At 30 damage a shot, even if the helbat only hit 3 zealots, that's 90 damage per attack right there.
On February 04 2014 06:23 movac wrote: I've always wondered why don't more terran plays mix in hellbats into their bio compositions like the way Bomber did at the Red Bull tournament. Even with no mech upgrades and only blue flame, just a few helbats would increase the efficiency a lot against zealots. At 30 damage a shot, even if the helbat only hit 3 zealots, that's 90 damage per attack right there.
Mostly because hellbats are mineral-heavy so making Hellbats = less 3/3 bio. Certainly a viable strat though, especially now that P is adapting to very marauder-heavy compositions by making tons of chargelots.
On February 04 2014 06:23 movac wrote: I've always wondered why don't more terran plays mix in hellbats into their bio compositions like the way Bomber did at the Red Bull tournament. Even with no mech upgrades and only blue flame, just a few helbats would increase the efficiency a lot against zealots. At 30 damage a shot, even if the helbat only hit 3 zealots, that's 90 damage per attack right there.
Watch ForGG. He seemingly goes Bio/Hellbat every TvP to mix success. Hellbats seem to work well in theory, but all the games I've seen from ForGG has the Hellbats function more as storm fodder.
On February 04 2014 06:23 movac wrote: I've always wondered why don't more terran plays mix in hellbats into their bio compositions like the way Bomber did at the Red Bull tournament. Even with no mech upgrades and only blue flame, just a few helbats would increase the efficiency a lot against zealots. At 30 damage a shot, even if the helbat only hit 3 zealots, that's 90 damage per attack right there.
Many reasons: -Slow without stim -No upgrades -Factories are expensive -Need tech lab with expensive upgrades to be flexible -Terribly vulnerable to forcefields due to slow speed -Surprisingly bad against Twilight tech (Archons/Blinkstalker/Templar) -transport space -their AOE cone is very narrow due to nerfs, it is deeply unlikely that 3 zealots get hit if the zealots are in a line
They have a few good things: +Better tanks than marines
On February 04 2014 06:23 movac wrote: I've always wondered why don't more terran plays mix in hellbats into their bio compositions like the way Bomber did at the Red Bull tournament. Even with no mech upgrades and only blue flame, just a few helbats would increase the efficiency a lot against zealots. At 30 damage a shot, even if the helbat only hit 3 zealots, that's 90 damage per attack right there.
Watch ForGG. He seemingly goes Bio/Hellbat every TvP to mix success. Hellbats seem to work well in theory, but all the games I've seen from ForGG has the Hellbats function more as storm fodder.
I think upgrades were one of the biggest problems with adding hellbats. It part of the reason why combining air and mech upgrades were supposed to help tvp.
I am actually genuinely surprised they reacted so quickly to some of the pro player and community suggestions.
Deadelus ramp fix, the MSC nerf and ghost buff going trough, the stupid changes not going trough is big. I'm disappointed they didn't implement the pro suggestions already, but still, the response was way quicker then I expected. Hopefully the proper MSC proper nerfs are put into a test map and actually implemented before the half of this month, that would be excellent.
As a toss player, I'm far more bothered by gold base maps than the ramp on deadelus (I don't veto it). One day, maps with golds will finally go away. One day.
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
On February 04 2014 06:55 playa wrote: As a toss player, I'm far more bothered by gold base maps than the ramp on deadelus (I don't veto it). One day, maps with golds will finally go away. One day.
Why is it a problem? all races have use for the extra minerals, when that gold base gets into effect. It might favor Toss because of tempest/templar/collosi killing workers ezpz and zealots being the least hard of mineral dumps to abuse (and free gates :D), it might also favor terran by giving them more unit production, or Zerg, free static defense ALL THE WAY :D:D!
On February 04 2014 06:55 playa wrote: As a toss player, I'm far more bothered by gold base maps than the ramp on deadelus (I don't veto it). One day, maps with golds will finally go away. One day.
Why is it a problem? all races have use for the extra minerals, when that gold base gets into effect. It might favor Toss because of tempest/templar/collosi killing workers ezpz and zealots being the least hard of mineral dumps to abuse (and free gates :D), it might also favor terran by giving them more unit production, or Zerg, free static defense ALL THE WAY :D:D!
It's always imbalanced. One race always has an easier time/harder time taking it. Even if it were to favor my race, I think it's stupid and rather not play it...
On February 04 2014 06:55 playa wrote: As a toss player, I'm far more bothered by gold base maps than the ramp on deadelus (I don't veto it). One day, maps with golds will finally go away. One day.
Why is it a problem? all races have use for the extra minerals, when that gold base gets into effect. It might favor Toss because of tempest/templar/collosi killing workers ezpz and zealots being the least hard of mineral dumps to abuse (and free gates :D), it might also favor terran by giving them more unit production, or Zerg, free static defense ALL THE WAY :D:D!
It's always imbalanced. One race always has an easier time/harder time taking it. Even if it were to favor my race, I think it's stupid and rather not play it...
Everything is imbalanced following that logic.
How about big ramps / open naturals / much air space. Imbalanced?
These are the features that define an interesting map. Gold minerals where shut down HARD when Mules mined a ton of minerals and Terran was still OP, times have changed, time to give gold minerals a chance!
Not only have they decided to buff ghosts, which is retarded for a unit that's already strong against protoss, but they're still dead serious about buffing hydras - a freaking core unit that works perfectly fine. I don't know what to say anymore... it's like they want to tell people how to play by buffing certain units into oblivion instead of allowing players to devise their own strategies and accepting the fact that not every single unit will be used all the time.
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
If a Terran is learning everything with 1 or 2 scans than you are placing stuff properly (even though him scanning twice is nice value so I would probably take it).
On February 04 2014 07:23 vhapter wrote: Not only have they decided to buff ghosts, which is retarded for a unit that's already strong against protoss, but they're still dead serious about buffing hydras - a freaking core unit that works perfectly fine. I don't know what to say anymore... it's like they want to tell people how to play by buffing certain units into oblivion instead of allowing players to devise their own strategies and accepting the fact that not every single unit will be used all the time.
They didn't buff the ghost (which might have been more interesting) what they did was make it so the window where terran is at there strongest (midgame) starts a little earlier. The ghost as a unit is no stronger then it was last week but the initial post patch timings might make it look like it for a couple weeks.
so about the Daedalus change: I actually think making the a smaller ramp makes the map worse. It's a bad map right now but at least it has a unique feature that leads to unique and interesting games. If you take away that ramp it's just simply an awful map without any interesting feature whatsoever. They should completely re-work it then, make the middle less wide-open and less boring and bring some actual interesting features in to make positional play possible. Ramps, watch towers, hell even gold bases. Just something that makes this map more then just a wide-open boring field of nothing.
How exactly would the tempest buff vs buildings work? Wouldn't that be to strong period in all mu? or is it just vs bio and even that would kinda destroy swarm host play, as that's really the only way to play it vs late game protoss deathball. Seems like most Pro zergs themselves don't like that style but play it because they feel it's the only way to beat late game protoss.
On February 04 2014 06:55 playa wrote: As a toss player, I'm far more bothered by gold base maps than the ramp on deadelus (I don't veto it). One day, maps with golds will finally go away. One day.
Why is it a problem? all races have use for the extra minerals, when that gold base gets into effect. It might favor Toss because of tempest/templar/collosi killing workers ezpz and zealots being the least hard of mineral dumps to abuse (and free gates :D), it might also favor terran by giving them more unit production, or Zerg, free static defense ALL THE WAY :D:D!
It's always imbalanced. One race always has an easier time/harder time taking it. Even if it were to favor my race, I think it's stupid and rather not play it...
Everything is imbalanced following that logic.
How about big ramps / open naturals / much air space. Imbalanced?
These are the features that define an interesting map. Gold minerals where shut down HARD when Mules mined a ton of minerals and Terran was still OP, times have changed, time to give gold minerals a chance!
I don't care about open naturals. Open ramps, etc. If one race is mining 2x you, simply due to mineral layout, that's kind of a different animal. There's a reason there's only one map with gold minerals. They're imbalanced and they should be gone. I didn't veto daedelous or w/e it's called, and I've yet to cry about how wide open a third is.
The Mothershipcore's incredible defensive ability is still the biggest problem for terrans in TvP... i dont know why David Kim doesnt get that as a Terran it is incredibly hard to win if the toss can just sit behind 1 Unit with 100 energy to defend everything for 1 min. straight. IMO the Unit should be completly removed from the game because the benefits to gameplay dont balance out with just the effectiveness of the unit! As of now, TvP is my least favourite mu, not just because it is so unbalanced but also because you simply cant play an aggressive style like i want to. And if you try you just get killed by some forcefields and the Photon Overcharge. Also I'm running into many protosses as of late so that means the general part of the multiplayer is NOT fun for me AT ALL.
On February 04 2014 04:27 Salient wrote: I wish Blizzard would consider the feedback from professional players before dreaming up balance patches. The pros in the TL article all seemed to agree that the proper way to fix the MSC was to reduce its vision. They all seemed to think the Ghost buff was random. At least the weird Hydra and Tempest changes were put off, but it seems like Blizzard is intent on going through with them some later time. And Blizzard explicitly stated that it didn't want to change swarm hosts . . .
It's called ego. Game designers have seen their craft grow from humble origins to now blown out of proportion stature. Why listen to people who make less money and have lower educations? This is the same way big business treats their customers.
On February 04 2014 04:13 Bagi wrote: Not a bad emergency fix, maybe Maru can make some miracles happen with this ghost buff. Also Daedalus fix is desperately needed.
Good to know they acknowledge this is only a start too.
lol, did Maru start making ghosts when I wasn't looking? Dude is notorious for ghost-less TvP
On February 04 2014 04:27 Salient wrote: I wish Blizzard would consider the feedback from professional players before dreaming up balance patches. The pros in the TL article all seemed to agree that the proper way to fix the MSC was to reduce its vision. They all seemed to think the Ghost buff was random. At least the weird Hydra and Tempest changes were put off, but it seems like Blizzard is intent on going through with them some later time. And Blizzard explicitly stated that it didn't want to change swarm hosts . . .
It's called ego. Game designers have seen their craft grow from humble origins to now blown out of proportion stature. Why listen to people who make less money and have lower educations? This is the same way big business treats their customers.
Um, no, it's called you can't count on pro players to be unbiased, or legit know anything about how to properly design and balance a game. They DO listen to pro feedback as they've said many times, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.
On February 04 2014 04:27 Salient wrote: I wish Blizzard would consider the feedback from professional players before dreaming up balance patches. The pros in the TL article all seemed to agree that the proper way to fix the MSC was to reduce its vision. They all seemed to think the Ghost buff was random. At least the weird Hydra and Tempest changes were put off, but it seems like Blizzard is intent on going through with them some later time. And Blizzard explicitly stated that it didn't want to change swarm hosts . . .
It's called ego. Game designers have seen their craft grow from humble origins to now blown out of proportion stature. Why listen to people who make less money and have lower educations? This is the same way big business treats their customers.
You seem to be assuming that "professional players" will all have the same identical correct opinion about what must be done to fix balance. Read those pro player reactions again, even if you limit it to just the Terrans, some thought the changes still leave P with a big edge in TvP and some thought they're so extreme that they'll give T a big edge. It's simply not the case that there's some sort of single "progamer view" out there that Blizzard could just adopt and solve all SC2 problems. Pro gamers are certainly more informed about SC2 balance than pretty much everyone else, but they're still human and will have a wide variety of opinions.
why dont we get a Fungal buff (more damage against air units) and nerf the spore back to the WoL version? this would completly fix ZvZ cause then Muta vs Muta would be more exciting and roach players have stronger infestors with stronger fungals..
So they want to buff hydras for ZvZ and TvZ, but not for PvZ. However, PvZ is the matchup where Hydras are a core unit and show up extremely frequently, and it happens to be a matchup which is quite balanced at the moment (despite a few design flaws). A hydra buff of some kind will likely imbalance the matchup in favor of zerg in some way, and the time warp nerf does help zerg as well, not just terran.
Depending on what hydra buff they go with, it might be pretty okay, so I'm not terribly worried, but it is something to think about.
On February 04 2014 09:11 monsta wrote: why dont we get a Fungal buff (more damage against air units) and nerf the spore back to the WoL version? this would completly fix ZvZ cause then Muta vs Muta would be more exciting and roach players have stronger infestors with stronger fungals..
Do you remember the latter half of WoL? Fungal growth is a poorly designed spell and it is absolutely not fun to have infestors be a core unit of every matchup.
Fungal was nerfed explicitly for this reason, they aren't going to rebuff it.
On February 04 2014 07:53 LingBlingBling wrote: How exactly would the tempest buff vs buildings work? Wouldn't that be to strong period in all mu? or is it just vs bio and even that would kinda destroy swarm host play, as that's really the only way to play it vs late game protoss deathball. Seems like most Pro zergs themselves don't like that style but play it because they feel it's the only way to beat late game protoss.
Tempest:
Resonance Coil ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30 + 30 vs. Structures.
So that's all matchups. The change would essentially boost their dps vs. structures by 100%. This is still a lot less than what they do to massive air units (broodlords).
Bio TvP is probably fine given that we rarely see ultra-lategame TvP with tempests and Terran isn't really reliant on heavy static defense in that scenario.
If consistent mech TvP somehow became a reality, this might be a little trouble, but carriers seem to be the weapon of choice in that area anyway (at least according to Stats >_>).
ZvP probably won't be broken by this, but I still don't like the change. Even though I don't think the SH is nearly as bad as people make it out to be, it's not exactly good either from an entertainment point of view. I'd rather they focus on doing an overhaul with the SH and corruptor. Not likely to see anything in that regard between expansions though
Small complaint, I'd rather they change the msc sight before they change the ghost. Timewarp + msc range + better ghosts might be a tad too good for terran, and if it is, doing the sight range last means that that would probably be the one thing they decide not to change, and it's the one that they need to change the most.
Also if they do two nerfs to protoss offense and don't change protoss defense, PvP might switch to a more defensive state. Which I wouldn't mind, honestly, but I hope we're aware of that.
the ghost buff is going to be something maybe a harass with cloak or not but I can differently see this being used in both tvz tvp might be the fastest cloak unit in the game not sure though just thinking i could see a ghost fending off a oracle and a msc with a emp
On February 04 2014 07:53 LingBlingBling wrote: How exactly would the tempest buff vs buildings work? Wouldn't that be to strong period in all mu? or is it just vs bio and even that would kinda destroy swarm host play, as that's really the only way to play it vs late game protoss deathball. Seems like most Pro zergs themselves don't like that style but play it because they feel it's the only way to beat late game protoss.
Resonance Coil ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30 + 30 vs. Structures.
So that's all matchups. The change would essentially boost their dps vs. structures by 100%. This is still a lot less than what they do to massive air units (broodlords).
Bio TvP is probably fine given that we rarely see ultra-lategame TvP with tempests and Terran isn't really reliant on heavy static defense in that scenario.
If consistent mech TvP somehow became a reality, this might be a little trouble, but carriers seem to be the weapon of choice in that area anyway (at least according to Stats >_>).
ZvP probably won't be broken by this, but I still don't like the change. Even though I don't think the SH is nearly as bad as people make it out to be, it's not exactly good either from an entertainment point of view. I'd rather they focus on doing an overhaul with the SH and corruptor. Not likely to see anything in that regard between expansions though
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time.
Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote: Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
So make them a completely different unit and then rebalance the game around that? That doesn't sound like an easy fix in any way.
On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote: Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
Weakening their attack with a cost reduction would do almost nothing but make them worse in a maxed out situations while doing almost nothing for when you actually need them.
As for marking them as normal it wouldn't actually help in the situations it needs to (tipping roach vs roach battles, ZvT, Against late game protoss), it merely strips them of their interactions with other units (banelings, hellions in some situations, oracles/phoenix).
On February 04 2014 09:11 monsta wrote: why dont we get a Fungal buff (more damage against air units) and nerf the spore back to the WoL version? this would completly fix ZvZ cause then Muta vs Muta would be more exciting and roach players have stronger infestors with stronger fungals..
- Buffing fungal vs air units might hurt the other matchups.
- Reverting the spore buff puts us back to where we were at the start of HotS. The problem was always more in the accessibility of the infestor. It was very risky to try to transition into them out of mutalisks because it gave the opponent a sizable window to just overwhelm you with a higher muta count.
- This doesn't address their goal of even attempting the hydralisk buff, which was to ease the transition to roach/hydra. Hopefully resulting in a little more diversity. Right now people sit on roaches for too long and sometimes even max out on them before transitioning to the addition of hydras, infestors, and vipers into their composition.
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time.
Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
and to counter the HT countering the raven we have the ghost, interesting cirlce we have here. Tempest>Ghost > HT > Raven>tempest
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time.
Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
and to counter the HT countering the raven we have the ghost, interesting cirlce we have here. Tempest>Ghost > HT > Raven>tempest
I don't know why you would need to counter it with a ghosts when you could just zone it out with a few tanks, ghosts with mech should be largely to deal with archons and immortals, in my opinion.
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time.
Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
well usually you can ignore the Tempests because there are not enough to do any harm or there are to many so you can simply rush over the Protoss ignoring them completely. In a meching case, HTs can't even get close enough to feedback. You shouldn't calculate on mistakes by the opponent. The constant poking might trigger mistakes though especially in lower leagues. The biggest advantage Tempest have over Carriers is that they don't need air upgrades. But if you want to drag out a game you have plenty of time to get air attacks and switch to the better unit, if you have the control for it that is.
Lategame, Tempest + HT is stronger vs. mech then anything involving carriers. There is actually, as it stands right now, literally nothing terran can do against that composition other than hope the protoss makes mistakes. With proper control and positioning, it is basically impossible to lose as protoss if you can get yourself into a maxed out army with that composition, and maybe a couple of oracles for revelation.
Tempest + HT beats skyterran, it beats bio, it beats mech, and it beats any combination thereof. Terran is fortunate that getting to that particular composition is extremely difficult, if not impossible in any normal game.
Actually carrier + HT is better. Tempest suck because its to easy to counter them with PDD. Every toss that goes tempest against mech i just laugh at. Sooo bad ez win.
You just feedback the ravens and the PDDs, and hit storms. The Tempests are mostly just for spacing, to protect the HT's, to force the enemy to attack into you rather than the other way around, and to deal a small amount of damage over a long period of time. It's the high templar that win the battle. If he unsieges and rushes forwards with a mech army or a sky army, you just retreat while hitting storms and continue dealing damage from max range. Tempests don't hit very hard, but they hit plenty hard to kill armies given some time.
Carriers are inefficient cost wise because the interceptors are constantly being replaced, they can't siege a location nearly as efficiently, they don't space nearly as well, and thors are better against them then tempests.
well usually you can ignore the Tempests because there are not enough to do any harm or there are to many so you can simply rush over the Protoss ignoring them completely. In a meching case, HTs can't even get close enough to feedback. You shouldn't calculate on mistakes by the opponent. The constant poking might trigger mistakes though especially in lower leagues. The biggest advantage Tempest have over Carriers is that they don't need air upgrades. But if you want to drag out a game you have plenty of time to get air attacks and switch to the better unit, if you have the control for it that is.
How does the terran attack into the protoss, exactly? Protoss can keep poking at terran from outside range forever with tempests, but terran has to commit to walking into range of the templar to hit the tempests. That means storms and feedbacks will go off np. Using tempests also means you have way more minerals left over for cannons and zealot harass, since you don't have to be making 100 interceptors every time you have a minor skirmish.
I'm not sure if it's just me, but I really hate the map pool now. When I watch tournament streams, it's like most maps have... I'm not sure, but there's something about them that I hate. I enjoy watching games on Alterzim and Frost and a little of Yeonsu because of the size, but Daedalus, Habitation, Heavy Rain, and Polar Night are just so bad in their layout.
Sooo how much is the sight range nerf for the test map? Currently the MSC has sight 14...I think nerfing it below 12 will change the PvP match up too much...as it is essential for scouting proxies in time and the opponent's base without getting sniped...
On February 04 2014 07:23 vhapter wrote: Not only have they decided to buff ghosts, which is retarded for a unit that's already strong against protoss, but they're still dead serious about buffing hydras - a freaking core unit that works perfectly fine. I don't know what to say anymore... it's like they want to tell people how to play by buffing certain units into oblivion instead of allowing players to devise their own strategies and accepting the fact that not every single unit will be used all the time.
They didn't buff the ghost (which might have been more interesting) what they did was make it so the window where terran is at there strongest (midgame) starts a little earlier. The ghost as a unit is no stronger then it was last week but the initial post patch timings might make it look like it for a couple weeks.
This change just seems to be unnecessary. Ghosts are fine. This could make scv pulls with ghosts even stronger, which is unnecessary. Other than that, is there a point? Blizzard shouldn't buff things that are fine unless there's a good reason behind it.
Hydras are pretty damn good, yet they were thinking about a ridiculous hydra buff that would indirectly make muta switches even more op, besides allowing zergs to have a maxed out hydra army really early. Let's talk about protoss for a change then, the oracle buff was so uncalled for that even protoss players, myself included, disliked it. It makes PvP even more coinflippy and expanding becomes harder than it already was against stargate openers. I'm not gonna say it was a game breaking buff, it actually makes the oracle a better scouting tool, but if they want to make the oracle a more useful unit, give it a decent fleet fleet beacon upgrade or something, I don't know... just don't make it an even more bs unit than it already is.
On February 04 2014 11:37 AxiomBlurr wrote: Sooo how much is the sight range nerf for the test map? Currently the MSC has sight 14...I think nerfing it below 12 will change the PvP match up too much...as it is essential for scouting proxies in time and the opponent's base without getting sniped...
Scouting with hallucinations is still an option. PvP with photon overcharge shouldn't be so razor edge that getting a sentry would mean death.
As for proxies, scout it like Terrans do. Early scout and count pylons.
/edit
Either way, the effect will be shared equally by both Protoss. I don't actually know what you mean by "change the PvP match up too much".
I really hope they can look into the issue with Sky Terran in TvZ. I honestly believe that once Terran gets that army the Zerg can't win if they are playing right.
Eh the hydra change won't go through but it's good to see that they're still trying to find a way to buff the unit to make it more viable in other matchups. I support a minor hp buff so they're a little more cost effective and don't get absolutely steam rolled by mass roach. Removing one of the costly upgrades would be nice, but it won't really make roach/hydra VIABLE in ZvZ or ZvT situations IMO.
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
Then WHAT IS the issue??? That Zergs don't have a 100% winrate on the map?
I honestly don't like these knee jerk fixes. They literally do next to nothing. Yes, it's nice, but why not have less blind nerfs, and more nerfs/changes/redesigning that actually fix the core problems?
And REALLY?! They don't want to touch the Swarm Hosts? REALLY...? Guys... Come on... Protoss just has a terrible time against free sieging units. Before, we had the problem where the game would always either end early or build up to the "dodge the vortex" point. Now it's, end it early, or slowly die to these mass Swarm Hosts. Free units is bad design. I mean, we could go on with the list of things where you fucked up on in terms of bad design, but this one is pretty fucking obvious. I don't know... Like, David Kim supposedly plays this game at a decently high level right...? Then how is he missing all of the core problems by miles? Is someone else playing with his name and claiming to be David Kim so they can say that they have someone who actually understands how the game works on the balance and design team? Cause we know for fucking sure Dustin Browder plays at a poor level, and if he were left alone to balance the game (which might actually be what's going on), we'd be beyond fucked. Like, if you put a misfit band of pros together to make changes to the game, I assure you, nearly all combinations of pros would create a better game.
On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote: Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
So make them a completely different unit and then rebalance the game around that? That doesn't sound like an easy fix in any way.
That's a good idea for LotV, but a terrible idea for a mid-expansion patch.
On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote: Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
Weakening their attack with a cost reduction would do almost nothing but make them worse in a maxed out situations while doing almost nothing for when you actually need them.
As for marking them as normal it wouldn't actually help in the situations it needs to (tipping roach vs roach battles, ZvT, Against late game protoss), it merely strips them of their interactions with other units (banelings, hellions in some situations, oracles/phoenix).
It would be fine if weakening them was coupled with lowering their supply to 1. Also, this is why we need a medium armor class.
On February 04 2014 05:43 Big J wrote:- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0. Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly.
What is damage point?
Damage point is the time from the start of the attack animation to the pointer that tells the game that a projectile has left the unit and is traveling towards the target. Right now, the Hydralisk has one of the longest damage points, whereas Marines and Marauders have very short ones.
On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote: Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
So make them a completely different unit and then rebalance the game around that? That doesn't sound like an easy fix in any way.
That's a good idea for LotV, but a terrible idea for a mid-expansion patch.
On February 04 2014 10:03 Alpha Plague wrote: Would the easiest buff for Hydras be the easiest one? Make them normal rather than light? Could also go the general, weaken their attack a bit and make them 75/25?
Weakening their attack with a cost reduction would do almost nothing but make them worse in a maxed out situations while doing almost nothing for when you actually need them.
As for marking them as normal it wouldn't actually help in the situations it needs to (tipping roach vs roach battles, ZvT, Against late game protoss), it merely strips them of their interactions with other units (banelings, hellions in some situations, oracles/phoenix).
It would be fine if weakening them was coupled with lowering their supply to 1. Also, this is why we need a medium armor class.
On February 04 2014 05:43 Big J wrote:- Hydralisk damage point reduced to 0. Gives Hydralisks the ability to kite other units when microed properly.
What is damage point?
Damage point is the time from the start of the attack animation to the pointer that tells the game that a projectile has left the unit and is traveling towards the target. Right now, the Hydralisk has one of the longest damage points, whereas Marines and Marauders have very short ones.
There is a medium armor class, it's just not labeled. Ghosts are an example of a unit that belongs to this class: it is not light and it is not armored.
Well, at least they recognize this changes will ONLY help the standart TvP and not the MECH TvP as all the community is requesting... Sad to see this, but at least they listen half of what the community is saying. Is sad as well to see there were lying when said they were listening to many Pros feedback, because they never show this to us, as the TL did. Blizzard, you need to fix all this stuff as son as posible. There are lot of people, who wont stay in the game waitong for LotV to see it fixed...
If they want to buff hydras in ZvZ and ZvT they can always buff hydra damage vs biological, seems like pretty neat and clean solution to me, any cost buff will be really extreme. Or maybe a range buff?
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Because scans have a cost and you can't just keep using it for scouting. It is like saying Protoss has permanent map hack because they have obs.
The fact that in pro PvT, the Protoss don't even bother to scout anymore because they can easily do it with their MsC,
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
True. But that's true for any form of scouting. If I send an observer through a Zerg base, who's to say he hasn't proxied a spire with overlord creep? And Terrans are really weird about scouting, despite having great tools (scans, floating buildings,dropships) to do so.
I mean, I've repeatedly heard Terrans say they were "surprised" by a templar "switch". You can literally look at the game timer and predict when that comes, Seriously, lol. Same for a colossus "switch." Not kidding, I've heard Terrans talk about "blindly" making vikings after Templar opening. If Protoss has completely filled out his PVT tech tree before you've managed to get reliable scouting, you've got a big problem, brother. And it's not w/ PVT.
I wonder if the ghost upgrade will have a major effect on reinforcing PVT. Will having EMPs out of the box help against mass zeal?
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
its an issue if you want to expand as protoss.
The race played does not determine the expand ability. That is wholly dependent on (1) player skill, (2) builds chosen by both players, and (3) working knowledge of the units and the game in general.
as a zerg I tell you this: go three nexus before gateway and survive against me or anyone not completely braindead.
Ok so go ahead and make these changes quickly and hopefully the pro's will figure out what is going to change before Code S is completely ruined. If only they would've done this sooner..
Glad they are listening on the MSC vision range nerf, sounds good to me just wish it was going through with the other changes.
I'm pretty worried about the Ghost upgrade removal, I hope templar openers in PvT aren't going to disappear now. But then again, Terran's hardly ever use ghost's anyway. They seem to not like to have to actually cast abilities while controlling their army, something every other race has to do in every matchup.
The only thing I'm disappointed in is the comments on the swarm host. It's not just Europe where they are a problem, it's everywhere. How they don't see that is just mind boggling. Change the enduring locust upgrade to something that gives the players incentives to use them in a more aggressive manner, instead of just having them sit at their base rallying across the map. But then again, that also just completely over-looks the inherent design flaw with giving a race free units, which didn't seem to come into account when designing the carrier for some reason seeing as how Interceptors still require resources to produce, go figure. When a unit is extremely vulnerable when being moved around like the SH is because of the insanely slow burrow/unburrow speed and movement speed is upgraded with something that makes their free-spawning units last 5 times longer that can also reach most expansions from sitting at their own expansion, there is absolutely no incentive to ever move them or use them in an aggressive manner. And they spawn fucking free units! Who would've thought they'd be overpowered? Didn't see that coming...!
On February 04 2014 15:08 ArTiFaKs wrote: Ok so go ahead and make these changes quickly and hopefully the pro's will figure out what is going to change before Code S is completely ruined. If only they would've done this sooner..
Glad they are listening on the MSC vision range nerf, sounds good to me just wish it was going through with the other changes.
I'm pretty worried about the Ghost upgrade removal, I hope templar openers in PvT aren't going to disappear now. But then again, Terran's hardly ever use ghost's anyway. They seem to not like to have to actually cast abilities while controlling their army, something every other race has to do in every matchup.
The only thing I'm disappointed in is the comments on the swarm host. It's not just Europe where they are a problem, it's everywhere. How they don't see that is just mind boggling. Change the enduring locust upgrade to something that gives the players incentives to use them in a more aggressive manner, instead of just having them sit at their base rallying across the map. But then again, that also just completely over-looks the inherent design flaw with giving a race free units, which didn't seem to come into account when designing the carrier for some reason seeing as how Interceptors still require resources to produce, go figure. When a unit is extremely vulnerable when being moved around like the SH is because of the insanely slow burrow/unburrow speed and movement speed is upgraded with something that makes their free-spawning units last 5 times longer that can also reach most expansions from sitting at their own expansion, there is absolutely no incentive to ever move them or use them in an aggressive manner. And they spawn fucking free units! Who would've thought they'd be overpowered? Didn't see that coming...!
You're right about swarm hosts, and that's the problem. Their basic issue is a DESIGN issue, not a BALANCE issue. You can nerf Swarm Hosts and while we'll stop seeing them (which is great) it will also unbalance ZvP completely. Swarm Hosts need to be redesigned into a different unit (kind of like Reapers and to some degree Void Rays were for HotS), and that's just not going to happen until LotV at the earliest. So given this unfortunate situation, I do agree with Blizzard that the WORST problem with Swarm Hosts is the 50+ minute nonsense games that ensue when a Zerg decides to use SH to turtle, covers the map with spore and spine crawlers, and just keeps abducting expensive units into static defense until the map runs out of resources or the Protoss falls asleep on his keyboard (I think we should just call this "the FireCake Problem" or "the Stephano Problem"--what IS it with French Zergs?). This seems less popular in Korea than in Europe (I guess no French Zergs there?) but RorO has been doing it a little recently so I'm all for them trying to make this strategy less viable.
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
True. But that's true for any form of scouting. If I send an observer through a Zerg base, who's to say he hasn't proxied a spire with overlord creep? And Terrans are really weird about scouting, despite having great tools (scans, floating buildings,dropships) to do so.
I mean, I've repeatedly heard Terrans say they were "surprised" by a templar "switch". You can literally look at the game timer and predict when that comes, Seriously, lol. Same for a colossus "switch." Not kidding, I've heard Terrans talk about "blindly" making vikings after Templar opening. If Protoss has completely filled out his PVT tech tree before you've managed to get reliable scouting, you've got a big problem, brother. And it's not w/ PVT.
I wonder if the ghost upgrade will have a major effect on reinforcing PVT. Will having EMPs out of the box help against mass zeal?
I'm not arguing that Terran scouting is unique in being unreliable. I'm arguing that scans, whilst occasionally useful, are unreliable and this individual seems to think they are.
About Deadalaus point, instead of making the choke smaller to help walling, wouldn't it be nice if blizzard put in some mineral patch there? Bw had some random patches that you could open a new patch after you mine it out, always thought that is pretty interesting
As I always complain I feel obliged to this also this time. At least little bit First, I hope that Photon Overcharge will be nerfed as it was proposed earlier? Time Warp cost increase may be interesting in general.
I am still not sure about EMP change. I think that in general, on highest level, like Korean level, it will make bio stronger, which is nice. But I can't really imagine it really could help playing Mech vs Protoss. Even with shields lost Protoss units kill Mech simply too fast.
The Daedalus change is needed, but personally I'm not happy. Why? Because Protoss players don't like this map, so as Terran I had bigger chance I will not have to face them on this map
No, I kid. Hydras don't really need a buff. Trying to "make" (read: force) roach/hydra to be viable in ZvT is dumb, just like trying to make mech viable in matchups where it isn't.
That said, patch changes look good.
Also, on the issue of swarmhost turtle strats: I don't think rebalancing tempest/spore is a great change. I think taking a look at the locust would be better. If Swarmhosts started to lose effectiveness once you got too many of them, that could help. Maybe rebalance the locust with shorter range so that they stack up on each other and aren't useful in super large numbers.
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
True. But that's true for any form of scouting. If I send an observer through a Zerg base, who's to say he hasn't proxied a spire with overlord creep? And Terrans are really weird about scouting, despite having great tools (scans, floating buildings,dropships) to do so.
I mean, I've repeatedly heard Terrans say they were "surprised" by a templar "switch". You can literally look at the game timer and predict when that comes, Seriously, lol. Same for a colossus "switch." Not kidding, I've heard Terrans talk about "blindly" making vikings after Templar opening. If Protoss has completely filled out his PVT tech tree before you've managed to get reliable scouting, you've got a big problem, brother. And it's not w/ PVT.
I wonder if the ghost upgrade will have a major effect on reinforcing PVT. Will having EMPs out of the box help against mass zeal?
Its not that simple and I find it annoying that you really think it is that simple and ppl are just plain bad....
You see a templar archives and that means what? You dont have 8 rax with techlab as terran. You cant warp in 8 ghosts at once because you scouted a few archons and HT with storms. Is the P warping in templars or chronoing out colossus 4,5 and 6`? Did he make the archives to create archons and go all in or is he getting storm and thinking long term? Its makes a huge difference. Have you ever lost a game vs a terran because he had 2-3 more of a certain unit than you thought?
How about a ghost price reduction? Terrans never have a gas dump in tvp, so why not change the cost of ghosts to 100/125?. Also, giving vikings some extra hp would be nice. They are extremely fragile and die to anything that shoots up.
I think the enduring locusts upgrade is mainly responsible for the awkward swarm hosts games. It leaves them without a window of vulnerability and extends their range far too much.
On February 04 2014 18:42 Grumbels wrote: I think the enduring locusts upgrade is mainly responsible for the awkward swarm hosts games. It leaves them without a window of vulnerability and extends their range far too much.
Yeah, they just pin down the opponent main army very, very efficiently without giving him an opportunity to move out, unless he tries to push straight through the locusts. Yet, the problem is without it it is just a longrange siege unit that hardly tickles the opponent. I think tweaking it may produce better results (from 25life time/25cooldown to 22/25 or 25/30), but just going to 15/25(+the awkwardly long spawning animation and the fact that if you splash the locusts on top of the hosts, the hosts go down very fast as well) will most likely just render them completely useless.
On February 04 2014 16:54 SC2Toastie wrote: So many biased and scared protosses making silly claims in this threat 0.0
Yeah, a few posts really take the cake :D, i also would be afraid if my race would get the nerf stick.
OT: Imo this quick patch is like 1 month too late and will do little in TvP. The damage is already done in WCS season 1.
The ghost buff nice nice and all, but when you do a timing you have to walk the ghost from your rax to the enemy most of the times (ghost energy regen 0.56, polar night: main to nat distance 41-47 ingame s with a drone) --> ghost has enough energy for a emp without the upgrade at the enemy. The best thing would be to revert the ghost change, make it 100/150 again.
Maybe with cutting the sight range and a little movement speed nerf the msc would be fine, but we will see what changes are going into the test map.
On February 04 2014 04:19 aeligos wrote: zomg... the ramp width is not even an issue... but oh well
its an issue if you want to expand as protoss.
The race played does not determine the expand ability. That is wholly dependent on (1) player skill, (2) builds chosen by both players, and (3) working knowledge of the units and the game in general.
I would like to see you a fast expand build against a Zerg player. Because on deadalus, if i see an expansion, i will allin you with my dirtiest allin possible and you will die. Or you can do a pressure build then expand, but you will be scouted SO EASILY but overlords.
Oh. And my lings runby will kill your nat the second you move out if you did not spend all your money on a wall
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
He is doing a build trying to kill you. Before the next 20minutes or so. 100% Sure :p
I don't like the ghost change tbh. At least from my perspective I don't feel like Terran mid games are weak compared to Protoss. Giving ghosts energy simply gives you a better timing for timing attacks. Once that timing is past, and if you haven't done lethal damage, you're back to the state of the game now i.e. nothing has changed. So all it'll do is encourage some ghost cheese/timing attacks and doesn't fix the real issues.
The issue I feel is Terran has no reliable way of knowing what's actually happening. Your reaper scouts a quick expand, doesn't tell you what the followup is. You scan 3 gates and a blink research. Doesn't actually if you're throwing down 4 more gates in 10 seconds. There is no constant way for scouts other than throwing lots of scans, but then terran can't keep up economically.
I think a much simpler solution could be, significantly reduce the energy cost of scans or remove energy cost and replace with a cooldown. Benefits I can see for terran is, you can scan the 3 gates and and blink. You can cheaply scan again for the next 4 gates. Also removing observers will be cheaper in the mid game. In the late game with multiple CCs, you will essentially have an observer because if the cost is reduced significantly you can basically throw it out non stop.
I don't see this changes really change pvt ... This won't stop oracle and blink and death ball at all ..
Protoss still have to many openings, to many harass weapons and can still defend any terran push with EZ in early game and still power up their maccro ...
On February 04 2014 20:01 Dracover wrote: I don't like the ghost change tbh. At least from my perspective I don't feel like Terran mid games are weak compared to Protoss. Giving ghosts energy simply gives you a better timing for timing attacks. Once that timing is past, and if you haven't done lethal damage, you're back to the state of the game now i.e. nothing has changed. So all it'll do is encourage some ghost cheese/timing attacks and doesn't fix the real issues.
The issue I feel is Terran has no reliable way of knowing what's actually happening. Your reaper scouts a quick expand, doesn't tell you what the followup is. You scan 3 gates and a blink research. Doesn't actually if you're throwing down 4 more gates in 10 seconds. There is no constant way for scouts other than throwing lots of scans, but then terran can't keep up economically.
I think a much simpler solution could be, significantly reduce the energy cost of scans or remove energy cost and replace with a cooldown. Benefits I can see for terran is, you can scan the 3 gates and and blink. You can cheaply scan again for the next 4 gates. Also removing observers will be cheaper in the mid game. In the late game with multiple CCs, you will essentially have an observer because if the cost is reduced significantly you can basically throw it out non stop.
That's perma map hack in lategame, and Scanning should cost you something, that makes the mule/scan mechanic so good.
On February 04 2014 16:41 Loccstana wrote: How about a ghost price reduction? Terrans never have a gas dump in tvp, so why not change the cost of ghosts to 100/125?. Also, giving vikings some extra hp would be nice. They are extremely fragile and die to anything that shoots up.
That would probably brake the already really strong skyterran tvz.
I do agree on rather changing ghost cost though. I ALWAYS end up floating gas in the lategame when going bio so why no make ghost that gas sink? Maybe even 100/200.
I'm afraid these changes won't help TvP much... As I said earlier in the according test map thread, I don't think the upgrade buff for Ghosts is a good approach since it just makes the game easier. Time Warp should just be removed from the game or more drastically changed since it literally kills micro without being hard to micro at all... Photon Overcharge not nerfed is probably the biggest issue together with not touching the MSC vision, yet.
Nice that there's finally something done, but I really wish they'd do it different, like involing the community more beforehand and not just informing people about changes and putting up a test map without even really considering feedback.
What if MSC's health was lowered(together with vision)? Then Ps need to be more careful with them in battle and easier to snipe if P goes Blink All-in. And it makes scout with MSC harder, so maybe P will need a Sentry to scout in early game and 100 gas into a Sentry really slows down the tech. I really think MSC is a all-around unit and a really good one, maybe too good. I remember it was meant to a defensive unit to fix PvP and in other matchup it was suppose to give P option to be aggressive and able to recall home if things get out of hands, cause if P loses his army early then it's GG. But right now you can do everything I said and even scout with it and the Time Warp and vision make Blink All-in so strong. And one big problem in TvP is that T need two different units to deal with two different "power-plays". T need Marines to deal with Oracle or it's GG, but T also need Maurader to deal with Blink All-in or it's GG. So if the Reaper don't scout what it is, then T need to pray and try to defend both, but P may just yoloswag and take a third and T is behind.
I think the ghost buff could make games play out quite differently since we will most likely see cloaked ghosts in play much earlier than before, time will show though.
Overall a good direction but I still don't buy the Ghost energy change. Either way, can someone tell me how this positively impacts mech TvP as was stated to be a goal of the design team?
On February 05 2014 02:39 mythandier wrote: Overall a good direction but I still don't buy the Ghost energy change. Either way, can someone tell me how this positively impacts mech TvP as was stated to be a goal of the design team?
Quick question regarding the Mothership core: is it true that Photon overcharge is the sole reason why one base protoss isn't viable anymore (unless proxy cheese ofc)? If so, then one needs to be careful with nerfing it, I really like (from an observer pov) the HotS PvP compared to the WoL PvP...
On February 05 2014 02:39 mythandier wrote: Overall a good direction but I still don't buy the Ghost energy change. Either way, can someone tell me how this positively impacts mech TvP as was stated to be a goal of the design team?
This 0.72 extra Tank will change everything, man.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Nevermind, all is well.
On February 05 2014 02:43 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question regarding the Mothership core: is it true that Photon overcharge is the sole reason why one base protoss isn't viable anymore (unless proxy cheese ofc)? If so, then one needs to be careful with nerfing it, I really like (from an observer pov) the HotS PvP compared to the WoL PvP...
Yes, Overcharge pretty much nullifies all 1 base and early 2 base timings in all Protoss match ups.
I can't tell you how happy I am to see Terran buff combined with Toss nerf, if only because its been the reverse of that for so long and its nice to be on the other end for once!
That said, the ghost thing is really minor, if anything. All it saves you is a few extra neurons firing to remind you to get the upgrade. It opens up a tiny window where you have EMP where you otherwise wouldn't, and then thats it, you're back to where you were before the patch.
My fix to ghosts would be to make it so that ghosts dont automatically get top priority when selecting a mix of units. I don't know about the rest of you, but my biggest issue with using a bio comp + ghosts is that when the big fight comes, and I am frantically boxing units and stimming and stuttering, I will invariably catch a ghost in my box, hit E to stim and then click backwards, only to see that my army is twiddling its fucking thumbs while the ghost I caught by accident EMPs nothing (or even my own damn units). Protoss has such high burst damage that fighting the toss deathball puts you on razor thin margins as it is; any miscontrol that involves the accuracy of a critical spell or a chunk of army standing around bathing in storms is going to have huge consequences.
A change like this would not affect the balance of the game at the highest levels, because the pros can manage already, but it would be tossing a bone to us lower level guys by making it a little easier to use the unit in a max battle but doing so via a change in the UI, not the base unit stats.
Maybe Im the only one who has this problem, but at the very least I think a change like the one I described is philosophically very good, because it could boost the lower leagues without touching the higher ones.
The ghost buff is not minor, no offense but I don't think anyone here actually understands how big of a change that is. Biggest issue Terran has with protoss since Wings was the ability to Tech switch in a proper time from Viking to Ghost. This change will make it so Ghost are in play a lot sooner for the Tech switch to storm or can be put in play and be ready when storm is ready. Then it will come down to micro.
That's why they asked the pros and not us. And all the Korean Terrans they asked jumped for joy when they saw the Ghost changes going live. Ghost change is prob the best thought out change Blizzard has done so far out of all the changes in hots.
On February 04 2014 06:29 Taronar wrote: Ghost upgrade only fixes poor scouting by Terran. A race who can just scan to gather all the information they need.
Scanning is unreliable though. Say I scan a protoss's main at 6:30 and see only 3 gateways. What build is he doing?
True. But that's true for any form of scouting. If I send an observer through a Zerg base, who's to say he hasn't proxied a spire with overlord creep? And Terrans are really weird about scouting, despite having great tools (scans, floating buildings,dropships) to do so.
I mean, I've repeatedly heard Terrans say they were "surprised" by a templar "switch". You can literally look at the game timer and predict when that comes, Seriously, lol. Same for a colossus "switch." Not kidding, I've heard Terrans talk about "blindly" making vikings after Templar opening. If Protoss has completely filled out his PVT tech tree before you've managed to get reliable scouting, you've got a big problem, brother. And it's not w/ PVT.
I wonder if the ghost upgrade will have a major effect on reinforcing PVT. Will having EMPs out of the box help against mass zeal?
Okay well with the observer you walk it around and you can tell for a one time cost what is going on. If zerg proxies a building of course scans can't hit that either, but you'd have a higher chance over time of finding that with an observer. Also, proxies are less common as they are far more risky. Although toss and terran both can scatter tech buildings across their main/natural to avoid scouting, I would argue terran is the reactive race in this matchup and relies on proper scouting way more.
The ghost change most likely help with two things: 1) midgame timing attacks vs storm first builds 2) easier holds vs 2 base storm chargelot timings/ 2 base archon chargelot timings
On February 05 2014 04:58 LingBlingBling wrote: The ghost buff is not minor, no offense but I don't think anyone here actually understands how big of a change that is. Biggest issue Terran has with protoss since Wings was the ability to Tech switch in a proper time from Viking to Ghost. This change will make it so Ghost are in play a lot sooner for the Tech switch to storm or can be put in play and be ready when storm is ready. Then it will come down to micro.
That's why they asked the pros and not us. And all the Korean Terrans they asked jumped for joy when they saw the Ghost changes going live. Ghost change is prob the best thought out change Blizzard has done so far out of all the changes in hots.
Check out the Pros responses to the proposed changes (the link is earlier in this thread). Most echoed what I said: that the ghost thing is pretty minor. Really vs P the best thing to do against Templars is snipe them anyways so they can't morph Archons and you already start with two snipes. Plus, as has also been said, by the time you walk them over to P's base they will have the energy for EMP anyways. The one area where the patch would be important is if P went for some sort of quick archon attack (like if P goes for DTs but you have enough detection and rather then transition out he morphs archons and goes in even deeper); in this situation I could see spawning with EMPs making a difference. Other than that though...
This change doesn't let you get ghosts out any sooner, and really I dont know that rushing out ghosts is a good thing to do anyways. The starport is critical vs P. Your army isnt efficient enough without the healing medivac, and dealing with collossus without vikings can be done, but it isnt easy. Delaying the starport to build ghosts sets you back far. The ghosts build time also ties up your barracks, meaning that not only are your critical air units late, but you also have less M&M to support the ghosts. Its not worth it to set yourself back like that just to get access to EMP (that you would have had anyways by the time you walked to his base, so the upgrade is moot)
All that said, Id rather have some buff than no buff, but I dont think this really addresses the issues in TvP, which to me are: 1) Ridiculous amount of potent all ins 2) The MSC shutting down all of T's early game aggression with one mouse click, and further enabling more P all ins 3) The protoss deathballs natural lategame dominance, when combined with point 1) gives T a narrow window to cripple or kill the protoss
On February 04 2014 20:01 Dracover wrote: I don't like the ghost change tbh. At least from my perspective I don't feel like Terran mid games are weak compared to Protoss. Giving ghosts energy simply gives you a better timing for timing attacks. Once that timing is past, and if you haven't done lethal damage, you're back to the state of the game now i.e. nothing has changed. So all it'll do is encourage some ghost cheese/timing attacks and doesn't fix the real issues.
The issue I feel is Terran has no reliable way of knowing what's actually happening. Your reaper scouts a quick expand, doesn't tell you what the followup is. You scan 3 gates and a blink research. Doesn't actually if you're throwing down 4 more gates in 10 seconds. There is no constant way for scouts other than throwing lots of scans, but then terran can't keep up economically.
I think a much simpler solution could be, significantly reduce the energy cost of scans or remove energy cost and replace with a cooldown. Benefits I can see for terran is, you can scan the 3 gates and and blink. You can cheaply scan again for the next 4 gates. Also removing observers will be cheaper in the mid game. In the late game with multiple CCs, you will essentially have an observer because if the cost is reduced significantly you can basically throw it out non stop.
That's perma map hack in lategame, and Scanning should cost you something, that makes the mule/scan mechanic so good.
I don't it will be a problem. Late game P v T is already P favoured. You can adjust the length of scan so it's not a perm maphack. more like you get to see an area for 2 seconds or something but low cost means you can use it a lot.
Ah ok so blizzard still doesn't know what they're doing with the game. I guess ill be staying in starbow for a long LONG time then.... mabye if im lucky they'll fix the game by the time sc5 comes out
In a few hours, we're going to move forward with the Daedalus Point fix and the balance update mentioned in David Kim's latest forum post. The changes should be live in all regions before this evening and we shouldn't need to bring the StarCraft II service down in order to apply the update. We'll let you know as soon as we've rolled out the changes.
Hey all, quick update - We're in the process of deploying the balance changes for Time Warp and Ghost energy right now. It'll still be a couple of hours before we've rolled out the update to all regions, but thanks for being patient!
"Good morning. What does the newest Hydralisk look like?"
Hydralisks still look pretty scary to me with all their slithering and spines. Wouldn't want to run into one of them in a dark alley, that's for sure!
There aren't any balance changes for them in this particular update but, like Dayvie mentioned, we're still looking to try out some sort of Hydra buff with the next test map.
"Thank you very much!
Is there an ETA on the new balance test map, with the MSC vision nerf?"
Not yet, but keep a lookout for it. We'll definitely let you know when the balance team is ready to publish the next test map.
Maybe making Photon overcharge the last priority for attacking units will fix the problem with protoss being so safe. A nexus with highest aggro is just a giant meatshield atm.
On February 05 2014 09:23 Rainmansc wrote: Maybe making Photon overcharge the last priority for attacking units will fix the problem with protoss being so safe. A nexus with highest aggro is just a giant meatshield atm.
IMO, this will hurt PvP more than it will help the other matchups.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Watch a ZvP? See them all the time as counter to swarm hosts.
Yaaaaaaaaay Daedalus is now playable for P, its still zerg favored because of lack of chokes, but hooray I'll take a favored map over a completely imbalanced map anyday! Also I think the patch hit mid-game, or like while i was in queue, it was shocking to suddenly need 100 energy for timewarp
On February 05 2014 09:23 Rainmansc wrote: Maybe making Photon overcharge the last priority for attacking units will fix the problem with protoss being so safe. A nexus with highest aggro is just a giant meatshield atm.
that will just affect noobs
the way it is right now actually rewards skill and/or more micro
since real pros will be controlling their units to not attack the meatshield
Well I only ever tried to nexus wall on daedalus before vetoing it so I don't know how many buildings it used to take to wall but right now it is 3 3x3 buildings + 1 pylon (if you want a 1 zealot hole). I think this is the same as it was on antiga, though that map had a way longer rush distance afaik.
On February 05 2014 09:23 Rainmansc wrote: Maybe making Photon overcharge the last priority for attacking units will fix the problem with protoss being so safe. A nexus with highest aggro is just a giant meatshield atm.
that will just affect noobs
the way it is right now actually rewards skill and/or more micro
since real pros will be controlling their units to not attack the meatshield
When you have to micro on 2 fronts it makes it so that if there is an overcharge it's insanely hard to just kill Probes, and Marauder overkill is a big issue.
Swarm host design has been terrible since the beta. Free units that can soak up damage and do greater than hydra dps are just terrible design. Once LoTV hits they should honestly just remove the unit. Running away from a free 15 sec spawn unit that lasts 20 with the upgrade because of it's scary close range dps makes for stupid games.
On February 05 2014 11:00 Zanzabarr wrote: Swarm host design has been terrible since the beta. Free units that can soak up damage and do greater than hydra dps are just terrible design. Once LoTV hits they should honestly just remove the unit. Running away from a free 15 sec spawn unit that lasts 20 with the upgrade because of it's scary close range dps makes for stupid games.
I very much doubt that Blizzard will remove it outright, because that doesn't seem to be their approach in SC2.
But they do occasionally seem open to fairly substantial tweaks to a unit that retain its role and concept but change its actual mechanics (e.g. Void Rays).
As such, I do hope they consider at least some serious rebalancing and tweaking of the Swarm Host. There may be ways to balance a unit that spawns other units (BW did it fine with the Carrier, and the Infestor was eventually tweaked to the point where it retains a role without being gamebreaking). But what is undeniable is that the current iteration of the Swarm Host makes for generally unfun gameplay, and even if they do want to stick to their basic concept of a unit that spawns units, they need to execute that in a much better way.
On February 05 2014 11:51 Dynamitekid wrote: I think TLO's suggestion of increasing Hydras hp to 90 is pretty good. Hydras used to be 90 hp in the early days of WOL and they were not overpowered.
You can't judge anything based on the early days of WoL where everybody was absolutely terrible, people didn't even know what Infestors were.
On February 04 2014 16:41 Loccstana wrote: How about a ghost price reduction? Terrans never have a gas dump in tvp, so why not change the cost of ghosts to 100/125?. Also, giving vikings some extra hp would be nice. They are extremely fragile and die to anything that shoots up.
That would probably brake the already really strong skyterran tvz.
I do agree on rather changing ghost cost though. I ALWAYS end up floating gas in the lategame when going bio so why no make ghost that gas sink? Maybe even 100/200.
There's skyterran in TvZ at levels where balance matters? Vikings are definitely not going to ruin TvZ if their HP is buffed a bit.
On February 04 2014 20:01 Dracover wrote: I don't like the ghost change tbh. At least from my perspective I don't feel like Terran mid games are weak compared to Protoss. Giving ghosts energy simply gives you a better timing for timing attacks. Once that timing is past, and if you haven't done lethal damage, you're back to the state of the game now i.e. nothing has changed. So all it'll do is encourage some ghost cheese/timing attacks and doesn't fix the real issues.
The issue I feel is Terran has no reliable way of knowing what's actually happening. Your reaper scouts a quick expand, doesn't tell you what the followup is. You scan 3 gates and a blink research. Doesn't actually if you're throwing down 4 more gates in 10 seconds. There is no constant way for scouts other than throwing lots of scans, but then terran can't keep up economically.
I think a much simpler solution could be, significantly reduce the energy cost of scans or remove energy cost and replace with a cooldown. Benefits I can see for terran is, you can scan the 3 gates and and blink. You can cheaply scan again for the next 4 gates. Also removing observers will be cheaper in the mid game. In the late game with multiple CCs, you will essentially have an observer because if the cost is reduced significantly you can basically throw it out non stop.
That's perma map hack in lategame, and Scanning should cost you something, that makes the mule/scan mechanic so good.
I don't it will be a problem. Late game P v T is already P favoured. You can adjust the length of scan so it's not a perm maphack. more like you get to see an area for 2 seconds or something but low cost means you can use it a lot.
Think of TvZ and TvT as well. If scans are too easy, it will lower the skill ceiling in those matchups.
Personally I don't understand the hate for the Ghost buff. if you were to do a Bio Ghost timing, you wont have Medivacs in that push. Remember Ghosts are still 200/100. Which is a huge investment for a Bio player.
I can see this helping Mech, but its very dependent on how well you drop the EMPs.
Anyhow Bio is probably still a better option, nontheless in a BOs a Mech Timing is sure to throw off an opponent.
It's kinda weird that they didn't go for reducing the hydra's mineral cost by 25 instead. I'm curious to see what they will do to the hydra next.
+1 armor would yield better results vs chargelot/voidray and vs. bio in ZvT. +10 HP would do better vs storm and mech, and would also make them a lot more durable in ZvZ. A mix of the two could also work but might be too strong.
seems like the hydra is having a bit of an identity crisis ^-^
On February 05 2014 13:26 Liquid`Snute wrote: It's kinda weird that they didn't go for reducing the hydra's mineral cost by 25 instead. I'm curious to see what they will do to the hydra next.
+1 armor would yield better results vs chargelot/voidray and vs. bio in ZvT. +10 HP would do better vs storm and mech, and would also make them a lot more durable in ZvZ. A mix of the two could also work but might be too strong.
seems like the hydra is having a bit of an identity crisis ^-^
The question those kind of buffs always raise for me is what sense it makes to buff their tanking. Isn't that kind of what the roach is for in roach/hydra compositions. Sure, 90HP Hydras won't overtake the roaches job, but I'd rather have something changed with the hydralisk that puts more emphasis on what they are or should be good at, like dealing with air, dealing the big damage from behind or giving Zerg some ranged fighting options to pick of stuff from further away.
Now that the patch is live in the ramp from the natural to the 3rd really smaller? It still looks huge to me, but I vetoed Daedelus the first time I saw the map, so I have not played any games on it.
So basically, is the ramp smaller now, and if so, by how much?
On February 05 2014 16:51 MockHamill wrote: Now that the patch is live in the ramp from the natural to the 3rd really smaller? It still looks huge to me, but I vetoed Daedelus the first time I saw the map, so I have not played any games on it.
So basically, is the ramp smaller now, and if so, by how much?
On February 05 2014 16:51 MockHamill wrote: Now that the patch is live in the ramp from the natural to the 3rd really smaller? It still looks huge to me, but I vetoed Daedelus the first time I saw the map, so I have not played any games on it.
So basically, is the ramp smaller now, and if so, by how much?
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Watch a ZvP? See them all the time as counter to swarm hosts.
Well i watch PL (so ZvP a lot) and i saw them like 4time. It's not THAT common. But we've seen it a few times.
On February 05 2014 13:26 Liquid`Snute wrote: It's kinda weird that they didn't go for reducing the hydra's mineral cost by 25 instead. I'm curious to see what they will do to the hydra next.
+1 armor would yield better results vs chargelot/voidray and vs. bio in ZvT. +10 HP would do better vs storm and mech, and would also make them a lot more durable in ZvZ. A mix of the two could also work but might be too strong.
seems like the hydra is having a bit of an identity crisis ^-^
The question those kind of buffs always raise for me is what sense it makes to buff their tanking. Isn't that kind of what the roach is for in roach/hydra compositions. Sure, 90HP Hydras won't overtake the roaches job, but I'd rather have something changed with the hydralisk that puts more emphasis on what they are or should be good at, like dealing with air, dealing the big damage from behind or giving Zerg some ranged fighting options to pick of stuff from further away.
I absolutely agree with you on this one. Either a DMG-Buff, better upgrade scaling or even more range would be a better choice then a health or armor buff.
If they want to change the cost i would much rather see them reduce the mineral cost. 75/50 or even 50/50 might work fine, but needs to be tested obviously.
That part about Hydra's is so funny, you don't need roach-hydra in ZvT and we don't need Hydras in ZvZ. This is going to make PvZ a total joke with the current ling/hyrdra meta.
As for PvT I wanna see where this goes though, Time Warp nerft isn't that big of a deal.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Watch a ZvP? See them all the time as counter to swarm hosts.
Well i watch PL (so ZvP a lot) and i saw them like 4time. It's not THAT common. But we've seen it a few times.
Mothership to counter swar *abducts* nope !
well if your Mothership gets abducted you kinda screwed up and forgot the reason why you get the Mothership in the first place.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Constant cloaking field sometimes worths it, if snipe detectors.
Hm, right. I sometimes forget that not everybody plays bad macro terran like me.
On February 04 2014 04:14 JustPassingBy wrote: As the Mothership Core is about to be nerfed, I would like to remind Blizzard that barely any player upgrades it to a fully fledged Mothership. This might not be top priority, but I would like to see the Mothership being used again.
Watch a ZvP? See them all the time as counter to swarm hosts.
Well i watch PL (so ZvP a lot) and i saw them like 4time. It's not THAT common. But we've seen it a few times.
Mothership to counter swar *abducts* nope !
well if your Mothership gets abducted you kinda screwed up and forgot the reason why you get the Mothership in the first place.
I don't play Protoss. But pro players i watched do this lost their MS like that.
And in the end, there will be no upgrades, so that everyone can get any units they wish at any time and have them at full efiiciency, instead of planning ahead. Then there will be one official build for each race that will be automatically performed by the game, allowing you to take control at when reaching the supply cap.
There used to be a time when Blizzard was not "listening to the community enough". Only now I can see how good time that was.
On February 06 2014 00:41 opisska wrote: And in the end, there will be no upgrades, so that everyone can get any units they wish at any time and have them at full efiiciency, instead of planning ahead. Then there will be one official build for each race that will be automatically performed by the game, allowing you to take control at when reaching the supply cap.
There used to be a time when Blizzard was not "listening to the community enough". Only now I can see how good time that was.
What about your nexus cannon, I bet you like having it without upgrading anything, right? Fuck off.
On February 06 2014 00:41 opisska wrote: And in the end, there will be no upgrades, so that everyone can get any units they wish at any time and have them at full efiiciency, instead of planning ahead. Then there will be one official build for each race that will be automatically performed by the game, allowing you to take control at when reaching the supply cap.
There used to be a time when Blizzard was not "listening to the community enough". Only now I can see how good time that was.
What about your nexus cannon, I bet you like having it without upgrading anything, right? Fuck off.
On February 05 2014 02:39 mythandier wrote: Overall a good direction but I still don't buy the Ghost energy change. Either way, can someone tell me how this positively impacts mech TvP as was stated to be a goal of the design team?
It doesn't. It has zero effect/impact on mech. It only buffs bio timings and bio in general.
The reason it has no impact on mech is because it's not a mech unit...it has absolutely nothing to do with mech.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
That is true even if you're playing bio. Really, not much changed this last patch for TvP, and in the coming weeks people should realize TvP is exactly the same with the blink all-ins because the time warp "nerf" (if it can even be called that) doesn't matter if the game outright ends from the first blink.
A better change that would have impacted mech and done the exact same resource cost cut of 100/100 as the ghost mobius reactor change would have been to reduce armory cost to 100/50, meaning two armories would cost 200/100 together instead of 300/200.
That would have affected mech via allowing a mech Terran slightly more gas for infrastructure or to afford their armory earlier on in the game to be able to more reasonably keep up in upgrades with Zerg, but especially Protoss where when you opt for mech you almost always 1 or 2 upgrades behind due to chronoboost and how late you are able to afford the armory in games.
There has been no reasonable photon overcharge nerf...no MSC sight range nerf, no reversion of oracle speed...blink is the same...this patch to me seems like it changed absolutely nothing about TvP but was rather an appeasement patch of "hey look we did something" when what they changed impacted the match-up 0%.
With the current changes, and the next ones proposed for TvP, I would stake my real life that TvP will remain in as bad shape as it has been 3, 6, or even 1 year from now if these are the only changes blizzard are willing to put through.
On February 06 2014 00:51 ( bush wrote: ? He's clearly complaining about Ghosts starting with energy upgrade.
You'll find that it doesn't mean he's protoss, for starters. The argument that suppressing upgrades is bad for the game is one that many people have expressed.
I don't really mind killing upgrades myself, but I do think nerfing the sight range of msc and cast range of PO would be a better first tweak to PvT than the ghost change is.
On February 06 2014 00:51 ( bush wrote: ? He's clearly complaining about Ghosts starting with energy upgrade.
You'll find that it doesn't mean he's protoss, for starters. The argument that suppressing upgrades is bad for the game is one that many people have expressed.
I don't really mind killing upgrades myself, but I do think nerfing the sight range of msc and cast range of PO would be a better first tweak to PvT than the ghost change is.
See ? That's how you respond to a post.
I'm all for MSC sight range too. Or maybe speed but not by much. On some map you can cast photon overcharge in two nexus without moving so maybe casting range nerf would be better.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
On February 06 2014 00:51 ( bush wrote: ? He's clearly complaining about Ghosts starting with energy upgrade.
You'll find that it doesn't mean he's protoss, for starters. The argument that suppressing upgrades is bad for the game is one that many people have expressed.
I don't really mind killing upgrades myself, but I do think nerfing the sight range of msc and cast range of PO would be a better first tweak to PvT than the ghost change is.
Sure it would be better, but after 3 years of watching Blizzard balancing this game, can we still expect reasonably good changes? I dont think so...
Of course getting rid of upgrades can be bad for the game, but hell they already have implemented a harassing unit which kills 10 workers per second, an early game unit that can activate a spell which defends any early agression just like a Planetary Fortress, except with no drawback. When you have absurd things like this in the game, I don't see removing upgrades being too bad.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
psss they are on a mission to remove as many upgrades as possible (in fact after templar and oracle energy this is already the 3rd energy upgrade removed), it is so much easier than simply adjusting how much energy they give, or touch regeneration or maybe increase max energy. Basically anything besides removing, but they are in it to eventually leave us with as little upgrades as possible.
On February 04 2014 04:26 iHirO wrote: Time to theorycraft a new one base marine build based around emping sentries and mothership cores.
One base Marine/Ghost was a thing, long long ago. Highly doubt it will be any stronger now, as the MSC wasn't available in wings and the marine/ghost build was gimmicky at best even back before planetary nexus.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
psss they are on a mission to remove as many upgrades as possible (in fact after templar and oracle energy this is already the 3rd energy upgrade removed), it is so much easier than simply adjusting how much energy they give, or touch regeneration or maybe increase max energy. Basically anything besides removing, but they are in it to eventually leave us with as little upgrades as possible.
yes because removing 3 of the roughly 30 upgrades available is blizzard "leaving us with as little upgrades as possible"
They removed HT energy upgrade because warp tech made it OP, they removed the ghost upgrade and gave u it for free because ghosts were not powerful enough. They get rid of upgrades where the unit is either too strong with it, or not strong enough without it built in to the unit, still leaving Stim, Combat shields, concussive shell, blue flame, cloak, storm, colo range, phoenix speed, drilling claws, burrow, bane speed, ling speed, hydra speed, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrowed movement, and many more. They are on anything but a mission to remove upgrades from the game, they are on a mission to balance the game.
One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
psss they are on a mission to remove as many upgrades as possible (in fact after templar and oracle energy this is already the 3rd energy upgrade removed), it is so much easier than simply adjusting how much energy they give, or touch regeneration or maybe increase max energy. Basically anything besides removing, but they are in it to eventually leave us with as little upgrades as possible.
yes because removing 3 of the roughly 30 upgrades available is blizzard "leaving us with as little upgrades as possible"
They removed HT energy upgrade because warp tech made it OP, they removed the ghost upgrade and gave u it for free because ghosts were not powerful enough. They get rid of upgrades where the unit is either too strong with it, or not strong enough without it built in to the unit, still leaving Stim, Combat shields, concussive shell, blue flame, cloak, storm, colo range, phoenix speed, drilling claws, burrow, bane speed, ling speed, hydra speed, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrowed movement, and many more. They are on anything but a mission to remove upgrades from the game, they are on a mission to balance the game.
So they could have increased storm cost, maybe have you start with a bit less than 75 etc. pp. but no they don't even try that they just remove it. Ghost are not powerful enough? Mabye because they nerfed the shit out of emp and snipe? But lets just remove more upgrades to balance it. And it's not just three upgrades. They also removed void ray speed (that shit was broken I do admit) and siege mode (which I still don't understand). I just don't see how, similiar to the warhound, their only answer to things is to simply remove them. A rts game allows such a broad option of tweaking things. I mean look at the ghost you can change how much energy what costs, how much it starts with by default, how much its upgrades cost, how much building a ghost itself costs, how powerful the spells are, how much a ghost academy costs, how fast it moves, its hit points, its damage, its max energy (though blizzard apparently wants that to be 200 for everything), what the energy upgrade does etc. pp. But I'm sure by far the best option out of all of those is to remove the energy upgrade. I guess DK gets 2 base templar allind a lot or w/e because after playing thousands of games as terran I don't even know where I'd ever be like "sweet now I can emp in my main". Maybe as mech vs 2 base immortal/archon allins but you can defend them via walloffs and not being too greedy and having decent target firing with your tanks.
On February 04 2014 11:37 AxiomBlurr wrote: Sooo how much is the sight range nerf for the test map? Currently the MSC has sight 14...I think nerfing it below 12 will change the PvP match up too much...as it is essential for scouting proxies in time and the opponent's base without getting sniped...
Scouting with hallucinations is still an option. PvP with photon overcharge shouldn't be so razor edge that getting a sentry would mean death.
As for proxies, scout it like Terrans do. Early scout and count pylons.
/edit
Either way, the effect will be shared equally by both Protoss. I don't actually know what you mean by "change the PvP match up too much".
To all protoss who think this will dramatically change PvP:
No. It wont.
1) you can still scout w/ 12 vision 2) you can use your probes 3) 1 hallucination 4) count pylons 5) who cares it's pvp and you both have that disadvantage now + mscore overcharge makes it ez defense
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
This. I would really like to see a replay or vod with a immortal bust defense with ghosts.
about time with the ghosts eh? i remember pros asking for something similar to this way back in HotS beta and a little before that in WoL. good to see some people were persistent in their request.
Sad about the hydra though. i don't think a resources buff was the right answer; i just think they could be a little more durable for their cost. like +10 hp or so, even if it came with one of their upgrades (Muscular augments).
hydra has been similar to the ghost...the muscular augments buff definatley did its job, but i think it could do a little more too.
On February 05 2014 02:39 mythandier wrote: Overall a good direction but I still don't buy the Ghost energy change. Either way, can someone tell me how this positively impacts mech TvP as was stated to be a goal of the design team?
It doesn't. It has zero effect/impact on mech. It only buffs bio timings and bio in general.
The reason it has no impact on mech is because it's not a mech unit...it has absolutely nothing to do with mech.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
That is true even if you're playing bio. Really, not much changed this last patch for TvP, and in the coming weeks people should realize TvP is exactly the same with the blink all-ins because the time warp "nerf" (if it can even be called that) doesn't matter if the game outright ends from the first blink.
A better change that would have impacted mech and done the exact same resource cost cut of 100/100 as the ghost mobius reactor change would have been to reduce armory cost to 100/50, meaning two armories would cost 200/100 together instead of 300/200.
That would have affected mech via allowing a mech Terran slightly more gas for infrastructure or to afford their armory earlier on in the game to be able to more reasonably keep up in upgrades with Zerg, but especially Protoss where when you opt for mech you almost always 1 or 2 upgrades behind due to chronoboost and how late you are able to afford the armory in games.
There has been no reasonable photon overcharge nerf...no MSC sight range nerf, no reversion of oracle speed...blink is the same...this patch to me seems like it changed absolutely nothing about TvP but was rather an appeasement patch of "hey look we did something" when what they changed impacted the match-up 0%.
With the current changes, and the next ones proposed for TvP, I would stake my real life that TvP will remain in as bad shape as it has been 3, 6, or even 1 year from now if these are the only changes blizzard are willing to put through.
why do you care about photon overcharge nerf when all you do is just turtle until 200/200 supply and then move out? EMP is huge against protoss, it basically renders 3 of the most high tech units of protoss useless, ie archons, immortals, HT. EMP is the counter to everything protoss has.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
psss they are on a mission to remove as many upgrades as possible (in fact after templar and oracle energy this is already the 3rd energy upgrade removed), it is so much easier than simply adjusting how much energy they give, or touch regeneration or maybe increase max energy. Basically anything besides removing, but they are in it to eventually leave us with as little upgrades as possible.
yes because removing 3 of the roughly 30 upgrades available is blizzard "leaving us with as little upgrades as possible"
They removed HT energy upgrade because warp tech made it OP, they removed the ghost upgrade and gave u it for free because ghosts were not powerful enough. They get rid of upgrades where the unit is either too strong with it, or not strong enough without it built in to the unit, still leaving Stim, Combat shields, concussive shell, blue flame, cloak, storm, colo range, phoenix speed, drilling claws, burrow, bane speed, ling speed, hydra speed, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrowed movement, and many more. They are on anything but a mission to remove upgrades from the game, they are on a mission to balance the game.
So they could have increased storm cost, maybe have you start with a bit less than 75 etc. pp. but no they don't even try that they just remove it. Ghost are not powerful enough? Mabye because they nerfed the shit out of emp and snipe? But lets just remove more upgrades to balance it. And it's not just three upgrades. They also removed void ray speed (that shit was broken I do admit) and siege mode (which I still don't understand). I just don't see how, similiar to the warhound, their only answer to things is to simply remove them. A rts game allows such a broad option of tweaking things. I mean look at the ghost you can change how much energy what costs, how much it starts with by default, how much its upgrades cost, how much building a ghost itself costs, how powerful the spells are, how much a ghost academy costs, how fast it moves, its hit points, its damage, its max energy (though blizzard apparently wants that to be 200 for everything), what the energy upgrade does etc. pp. But I'm sure by far the best option out of all of those is to remove the energy upgrade. I guess DK gets 2 base templar allind a lot or w/e because after playing thousands of games as terran I don't even know where I'd ever be like "sweet now I can emp in my main". Maybe as mech vs 2 base immortal/archon allins but you can defend them via walloffs and not being too greedy and having decent target firing with your tanks.
Without Tanks having Siege Mode by default, 1-1-1 builds (after or before expand) in TvP would not be viable since they would automatically lose to things like Blink or simple counter-Stalker pressure. Removing Siege Mode was quite a lazy way to fix that, but at least it made some sense regarding this.
Removing Moebius Reactor is just a cosmetic change to appease the crowd. In like 95% of the situations it will simply result in Terran having one extra Medivac by midgame, and that's it.
As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP.
psss they are on a mission to remove as many upgrades as possible (in fact after templar and oracle energy this is already the 3rd energy upgrade removed), it is so much easier than simply adjusting how much energy they give, or touch regeneration or maybe increase max energy. Basically anything besides removing, but they are in it to eventually leave us with as little upgrades as possible.
yes because removing 3 of the roughly 30 upgrades available is blizzard "leaving us with as little upgrades as possible"
They removed HT energy upgrade because warp tech made it OP, they removed the ghost upgrade and gave u it for free because ghosts were not powerful enough. They get rid of upgrades where the unit is either too strong with it, or not strong enough without it built in to the unit, still leaving Stim, Combat shields, concussive shell, blue flame, cloak, storm, colo range, phoenix speed, drilling claws, burrow, bane speed, ling speed, hydra speed, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrowed movement, and many more. They are on anything but a mission to remove upgrades from the game, they are on a mission to balance the game.
So they could have increased storm cost, maybe have you start with a bit less than 75 etc. pp. but no they don't even try that they just remove it. Ghost are not powerful enough? Mabye because they nerfed the shit out of emp and snipe? But lets just remove more upgrades to balance it. And it's not just three upgrades. They also removed void ray speed (that shit was broken I do admit) and siege mode (which I still don't understand). I just don't see how, similiar to the warhound, their only answer to things is to simply remove them. A rts game allows such a broad option of tweaking things. I mean look at the ghost you can change how much energy what costs, how much it starts with by default, how much its upgrades cost, how much building a ghost itself costs, how powerful the spells are, how much a ghost academy costs, how fast it moves, its hit points, its damage, its max energy (though blizzard apparently wants that to be 200 for everything), what the energy upgrade does etc. pp. But I'm sure by far the best option out of all of those is to remove the energy upgrade. I guess DK gets 2 base templar allind a lot or w/e because after playing thousands of games as terran I don't even know where I'd ever be like "sweet now I can emp in my main". Maybe as mech vs 2 base immortal/archon allins but you can defend them via walloffs and not being too greedy and having decent target firing with your tanks.
What's your obsession with upgrades that do not add decisions? you want siege tanks --> you built siege mode, because without it they can't do what you want them to do you want ghosts --> you built the energy upgrade, because with it they are much better Unless you find a reason why those upgrades offer any interesting strategic potential (which they don't) or why the powers they unlock have to be delayed/cost more you have no argument.
Flux Vanes was removed because speed-VRs were to powerful. There was no tweaking needed, just make them regular VRs. Phoenix range was included as an upgrade instead of a straight buff, because just including it in the unit would be way too powerful. Lots of other upgrades are interesting because they are a strategic commital (blue flame, banshee cloak, prism speed, burrow, storm...) or too powerful early (most zerg upgrades, like speed upgrades; blink or stim). But of the small handful that blizzard is removing none falls under those categories. So I don't understand your critics here at all.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
^ yeah, they didn't skip ghosts because they are expensive as fuck at all. That is the actual "problem" about them (quotes because one might argue they are strong enough like this). Buffing ghosts didn't help at all with the actual problems of the matchup either (all in guessing game), soooooooo. Of course it's always cool to get a slight buff to anything, what he's saying is that it's not a big thing at all, and he's right (jjakji lost a game to chargelot archons a few minutes ago, and didn't make ghosts because it's too expensive).
Seems like more of a give-a-dog-a-bone change than an actual change to be honest. When was the last time you saw a Terran die because he didn't have enough energy on his HT to EMP? When did a Blink allin fail because the MsC was 25 mins short of a third Time Warp?
This won't change late game TvP which is what ladder people are complaining about, and it won't really change early game allins which is what professional T's are worrying about. It just makes mid-game T a tad bit stronger. So best case scenario we see a few creative alilns that phase out from the meta once they've been figured out.
I think Terran has a lot of cheeses to scout for at the moment. Just make it so half of the maps can't be blink allin-ed on and you pretty much balance professional PvT in my opinion.
The Daedalus change is welcome, though. The biggest flaw of that map was the ramp obviously.
PS just because pro Terrans like the Ghost buff doesn't mean they think it solves any of the issues they are concerned with in the matchup. If you ask any pro, they will always favor something that buffs their race. I'll take a buff any day and figure out what to do with it later!
If you said to me we want to give observers +2 armor I'd say HELL YES why not. Do I think it will change anything? Not really.. maybe you save one observer early game from a few marines. But I'll take it...
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote: Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence?
Well, you can use part of the 100/100 to upgrade Cloak, yes, but you still need a lot of energy if you want to use EMPs + Cloak.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
6 lines to say essentially nothing relevant/interesting is overkill.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Other than the "since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game" I think everything you said is accurate. It's buffing a thing about Terran that was never an issue in the first place. Terran is strong in the mid-game.
On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote: Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence?
Well, as a result you get cloak faster because you don't have to take the time to research it. So while it's true that the Ghosts arrived at the Protoss base with energy for EMP anyway, they will have cloak now whereas they didn't before.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote: Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence?
Well, you can use part of the 100/100 to upgrade Cloak, yes, but you still need a lot of energy if you want to use EMPs + Cloak.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
6 lines to say essentially nothing relevant/interesting is overkill.
Ok so you're just full of crap. You probably aren't top 50 GM at all, but you say it to sounds smart(which still doesn't cut it) and you refuse to actually prove you are. And frankly you sound like the most obnoxious, condescending person on the planet every time you reference your "top 50 GM" and have never once to me actually shown this at all. Plenty of pros who are way better than you say plenty of things that shouldn't be taken seriously and your appealing to authority is ridiculous.
You were illogical in turning his post about what pro players said into what he said.
Furthermore, you don't make any sense. Ghosts slow marauder production yes, but marauders aren't terribly useful in late game anyways. A mostly charge lot tanking force doesn't take very much damage from marauders, and they aren't needed for anything else, Vikings should be battling colossi, not marauders. And it doesn't have any effect realistically on medivac production, that is halted by the building of Vikings. Also, Terran is rarely at a shortage of gas playing bio which makes medivac and ghost production a nonissue. Marauders have been shown in the late game by pros to simply not be that good, and they should be phased out when you need ghosts.
If Terran timings and mid game are weaker because of the mothership core, then why are Terrans producing less ghosts. Would it not make sense for Terran to build more ghosts if they are forced into late game? Building less of a late game unit when you have to play more late game is counterintuitive. I'm not going to argue that the ghost buff is very helpful, it isn't. But saying ghosts, a late game unit as you described them, are not as good in a metagame where Terran needs to play more late game? That doesn't make sense.
I'm just going to miss screwing zergs over on daed point with hellion banshee runbys all in all I don't think the ghost patch is goign to change much if anything its just going to get Terran Renerfed somehow LOL Some Terran Ace is goign to abuse it and the next day Blizzard will patch it LOL!
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
Knowledge and proof of top 50 GM are different. He appears to know a lot and he's right on at least 1 point. But saying "I'm top 50 GM so I'm automatically smarter than you" is obnoxious as hell
So basically Terrans get 1 EMP now. With the patch they will get either 2 EMPs w/ 100/100 in their pocket or 1 EMP and cloak. I think cloak as part of an EMP allin would be pretty nifty.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
I'm surprised he even made that post, the thread were TL asked some of the pros how they felt about the current balance changes and most feed back from pro Terrans on their streams, is where I got my information, The Ghost change is something they all agreed is a good change and allows for a better transition vs storm play. Not sure why that guy got all offensive and had to rage and say hes "gm i'm god and smarter than you" Pretty silly.
You can find that thread on the first page or 2nd in the General sc2 section if he wants to go look at what the Pro Terrans had to say, which I'm sure they have a better understanding of this game than any of us in this thread.
On February 06 2014 05:35 Ana_ wrote: Just wondering with the ghost change, does it give Terrans some form or fassion time to get cloak faster for either offence or defence?
Well, you can use part of the 100/100 to upgrade Cloak, yes, but you still need a lot of energy if you want to use EMPs + Cloak.
On February 06 2014 05:39 Wingblade wrote:
On February 06 2014 05:14 TheDwf wrote:
On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote:
On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote:
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
6 lines to say essentially nothing relevant/interesting is overkill.
Ok so you're just full of crap. You probably aren't top 50 GM at all, but you say it to sounds smart(which still doesn't cut it) and you refuse to actually prove you are. And frankly you sound like the most obnoxious, condescending person on the planet every time you reference your "top 50 GM" and have never once to me actually shown this at all. Plenty of pros who are way better than you say plenty of things that shouldn't be taken seriously and your appealing to authority is ridiculous.
1. Do you think I care one single second whether you believe me or not? 2. I mentioned my ranking because the poster said "Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about?" It had nothing to do with "appealing to authority". 3. Fairly sure I didn't make a reference to "top50 GM" numerous times in the past since I had not been top50 since like 4 seasons, and unlike what you insinuate I do not inflate my ranking "to sound smarter" (I did not even pretend I was smarter, so stop putting words in my mouth) or boast.
Furthermore, you don't make any sense. Ghosts slow marauder production yes, but marauders aren't terribly useful in late game anyways.
Except if you had vaguely taken some time to read my post before going berserk, you would have understood I was not at all talking about lategame but midgame attacks with Ghosts.
Also, Terran is rarely at a shortage of gas playing bio which makes medivac and ghost production a nonissue.
Lol. Of course Terran is gas-starved when building Ghosts and Medivacs (or Vikings); if you actually want to play lategame as you describe, you'll even immediately take your 7th and 8th geyser upon taking your fourth because upgrades + mass Ghosts/Vikings production require so much gas. Only low-tech bio (i. e. precisely Ghost-free compositions) can stay on 4 or 5 geysers.
Besides, when you say a unit is expensive, it's not only about gas. Ghosts still cost 200 minerals and 40 seconds of rax lab production (only 3 rax lab at the beginning of midgame, then 5).
If Terran timings and mid game are weaker because of the mothership core, then why are Terrans producing less ghosts. Would it not make sense for Terran to build more ghosts if they are forced into late game? Building less of a late game unit when you have to play more late game is counterintuitive. I'm not going to argue that the ghost buff is very helpful, it isn't. But saying ghosts, a late game unit as you described them, are not as good in a metagame where Terran needs to play more late game? That doesn't make sense.
Who said that? Terrans still desperately try to win by midgame because they pretty much auto-lose by lategame (4+ bases scenarii). So no, it does not make much sense to build a unit that slows down your tempo when you only have a 4-5 minuts window to seize to win—unless you want to hit a +2 attack and/or pre-Colossus switch timing like the one I mentioned with the Mvp vs San game.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
Knowledge and proof of top 50 GM are different. He appears to know a lot and he's right on at least 1 point. But saying "I'm top 50 GM so I'm automatically smarter than you" is obnoxious as hell
I think the other guy needed to be called out. Too bad no-one else did.
As for proof, you do realize you're asking for him to reveal his smurf, right? But, anyway, you can track his official ladder record via sc2ranks: http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/eu/11001183103/downfall You can see where he is now, where he has been before, his best and worst. Best this season I could find was 16th in Europe.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
No ones calling out anyone, instead of being ignorant yourself, maybe read what the real Korean Pros had to say about the changes, which is all I stated, before insulting people on the TL forums. You can ask any Pro Terran about the Ghost changes. The Korean Terrans and the Pro NA/EU Terrans do have a better understanding, just because you write guides on TL does not mean you are a pro and know everything. That's all I stated, the current Pros are very happy, and it makes sense as well.
Raging and calling these changes useless is nonsense. FYI the whole "i'm gm i'm gm" is silly, no need to even do that. People get so hostile these days.
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass.
No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end.
Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that.
Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups.
I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game.
Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100.
Ok so first of all he started his post by establishing that this is what pro ayers are saying(I don't know if he's right but that's his argument) so you referencing your GM and saying your smarter than him means nothing since his argument stems from pro players.
Second of all, I've never heard of you in tournaments or on ladder and never seen any proof that you really are top 50 GM. And considering how much you post in these balance threads I'm amazed you can hold that rank. I can't take anything you say seriously under that pretense because I've never seen proof and I'm amazed so many people do.
You shouldn't wear your ignorance on your sleeve like that. TheDwf is basically TL Strategy's terran knowledge repository who seemingly knows every build and timing from the pro scene. For anyone that actually knows SC2, it's hilarious to see him called out for not having enough knowledge by a random nobody.
No ones calling out anyone, instead of being ignorant yourself, maybe read what the real Korean Pros had to say about the changes, which is all I stated, before insulting people on the TL forums. You can ask any Pro Terran about the Ghost changes. The Korean Terrans and the Pro NA/EU Terrans do have a better understanding, just because you write guides on TL does not mean you are a pro and know everything. That's all I stated, the current Pros are very happy, and it makes sense as well.
Raging and calling these changes useless is nonsense. FYI the whole "i'm gm i'm gm" is silly, no need to even do that. People get so hostile these days.
You're being rude and patronizing, while getting your facts wrong, you deserve worse than you got.
As for
maybe read what the real Korean Pros had to say about the changes, which is all I stated, before insulting people on the TL forums. You can ask any Pro Terran about the Ghost changes. The Korean Terrans and the Pro NA/EU Terrans do have a better understanding, just because you write guides on TL does not mean you are a pro and know everything. That's all I stated, the current Pros are very happy, and it makes sense as well.
Let's read what they had to say about the ghost:
Jjakji:
About Ghost, blizzard said it will be helpful with mechanic [mech compositions] but i don't think its much help mechanic. I think it gives more power with bionic [bio - marine marauder] play. Its a nice patch but we need to see it for a while [if it is] good or not. [Against] high templar basic mana will be problem because player can use them after make unit but ghost need to walk they get mana between time so i dont know its over patch or so so. [the intention here is as follows: since when attacking, ghosts walk cross map they should already have energy for emp
MMA
Ghost energy change is good :D
Notice, that's ALL MMA said. No explanation of any kind. But he did add:
Mothership vision, please change.
The photon overcharge and time warp changes are very good, but not enough.
So, surely, the ghost change isn't sufficient in his mind.
Libo:
Ghosts: Seems like a redundant buff, Terran is only strong in the mid game (when they're not being all-ined) so it's making the strongest Terran point a little bit stronger (still doesn't have that much of an impact).
That's all that was said on the ghost by terrans.
So, do explain to us how those pro's all think the ghost is great and will solve all problems.
***
Edit:
By request, Ryung said:
If they change 2 things in PvT like that, PvT will be so good for Terran.
I have no idea about hydralisk and tempest because I'm Terran."
They hadn't played it and were looking at the ghost invacuum. I wouldnt be surprised if we see Terrans learn to:
1) recognize the HT openings
2) divert the cost of energy upgrade into cloak (saving 100/100 in the process)
3) hitting a timing with cloak AND the additional energy that ghosts come out with so they can both cloak and they can emp.
Now this wont happen every game, and the change to ghosts is very situational. Maybe it will help defensive timings as mech continues to gain popularity in Korea, but who knows.
Also: TheDwf is smart, and he has a point, right now its not a big change, and it won't flip the matchup on its head. There might be a discovery to be made but I think its a good change to help terrans but it wasnt a NECESSARY nor was it the most IMPACTFUL change, and it also does not address the lack of depth in Terran aggression and openers in TvP. It only provides a bit of an extra tool for the midgame.
Might this tool help slow down the protoss late game strength? maybe, but its hard to say if it will or won't without a few weeks or months until the possibilities get figured out.
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Not the outcome of that single game where the MSC built up 200 energy? I know its weird, but they arn't going to nerf blink all-ins into the ground any more than they are going to nerf the SCV pull.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Probably the 0.2% games that are decided by a third Time Warp. What this patch changes is that Protoss has less chances to accidentally win the game with the Zealots/Stalkers/MSC pokes.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Probably the 0.2% games that are decided by a third Time Warp. What this patch changes is that Protoss has less chances to accidentally win the game with the Zealots/Stalkers/MSC pokes.
Yeah I'm way less likely to use a Time Warp with that push now knowing how much longer it will take for PO to be available at home.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
I'm really sorry, but is it weird for me to find it only logical that if your all in fails, you're supposed to be vulnerable..?
-ALSO, if you go all in, GO ALL IN. There's no reason to go all in and safe energy for when it backfires. That's like the 1/1/1s that pulled a few scvs - why do you go all in if you don't want to go all in?
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
I think you mean 'aggression'... Early blink is a not really an all-in now.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met:
1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common), 2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards 3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened, 4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already, 4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well
So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
I'm really sorry, but is it weird for me to find it only logical that if your all in fails, you're supposed to be vulnerable..?
-ALSO, if you go all in, GO ALL IN. There's no reason to go all in and safe energy for when it backfires. That's like the 1/1/1s that pulled a few scvs - why do you go all in if you don't want to go all in?
Easy there buddy, no need to infuse everything with balance whine. I was just simply stating facts.
There were some Blink builds you could transition out of using PO to defend while you got Psi Storm out. Now PO will be really delayed if you Time Warp twice. So it makes the Blink builds a little more all-in.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met:
1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common), 2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards 3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened, 4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already, 4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well
So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack.
Sigh, sometimes I wonder why I even post in these forums if all the responses are angry whiny ones like this. This is just not true.
You used to be able to fly in the MsC super early, see kind of what the Terran was doing, poke at SCVs a little and then run the MsC away. You could use a Time Warp to cover your tracks. Now that it costs 25 more energy, doing that severely delays your first PO at home, so Protoss does have to be more careful about their TW usage. Not just in that very specific scenario you described but in others as well.
It's a small nerf, but one that means we have to be a lot more picky about when to use it. And it does open up good stim timings if the Protoss overuses it.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met:
1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common), 2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards 3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened, 4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already, 4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well
So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack.
Sigh, sometimes I wonder why I even post in these forums if all the responses are angry whiny ones like this. This is just not true.
You used to be able to fly in the MsC super early, see kind of what the Terran was doing, poke at SCVs a little and then run the MsC away. You could use a Time Warp to cover your tracks. Now that it costs 25 more energy, doing that severely delays your first PO at home, so Protoss does have to be more careful about their TW usage. Not just in that very specific scenario you described but in others as well.
It's a small nerf, but one that means we have to be a lot more picky about when to use it. And it does open up good stim timings if the Protoss overuses it.
How is that whiny? As you said, I'm trying to understand the facts. With regard to the blink attack, how does it change?
I listed the conditions to be met for a change. Just 'have to be more careful' is too vague, there has to be a concrete timing that we're talking about.
Each use of TW is now +25 energy. Energy regeneration is such that it takes about 44 in-game seconds to replenish. So each timing has to be within those energy replenish rates.
Btw, interestingly, the msc only takes 30 sec to build. So, if you're at less than 33 energy, and you need a PO in the quickest time, it's better to sac the msc and build a new one.
On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote: So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met:
1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common), 2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards 3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened, 4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already, 4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well
So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack.
Sigh, sometimes I wonder why I even post in these forums if all the responses are angry whiny ones like this. This is just not true.
You used to be able to fly in the MsC super early, see kind of what the Terran was doing, poke at SCVs a little and then run the MsC away. You could use a Time Warp to cover your tracks. Now that it costs 25 more energy, doing that severely delays your first PO at home, so Protoss does have to be more careful about their TW usage. Not just in that very specific scenario you described but in others as well.
It's a small nerf, but one that means we have to be a lot more picky about when to use it. And it does open up good stim timings if the Protoss overuses it.
How is that whiny? As you said, I'm trying to understand the facts. With regard to the blink attack, how does it change?
I listed the conditions to be met for a change. Just 'have to be more careful' is too vague, there has to be a concrete timing that we're talking about.
Each use of TW is now +25 energy. Energy regeneration is such that it takes about 44 in-game seconds to replenish. So each timing has to be within those energy replenish rates.
Btw, interestingly, the msc only takes 30 sec to build. So, if you're at less than 33 energy, and you need a PO in the quickest time, it's better to sac the msc and build a new one.
"Terran can only do X in this tiny little window" always sounds whiny to me. You're way exaggerating how limited Terran is and how small the window is.
I don't think "having to be more careful" is too vague. The game is very dynamic and fluid and often things don't turn out as you expected them to. Sometimes you have to think on the fly and make decisions on the spot. Now your Time Warp usage can't be as free as pre-patch.
Imagine they made forcefields require more energy (say 15 more energy per FF). You could still do certain builds, but you would need to be a lot more accurate with your forcefields and a lot pickier about when you choose to engage.
I think it's the same with the MsC in PvT. Sure you can still Time Warp twice, but you better know that you won't need to PO for a while otherwise you're leaving yourself vunlerable for an extra 50 energy regen time (compared to pre patch). Now you have to decide if it's really worth floating the MSC in to pick off the 1 SCV building the supply depot in the corner since you can't cover your escape with a Time Warp (or doing so would leave you vulnerable without a PO for longer). That sort of thing.
And yes, good point. It's sometimes faster to just sac the MsC and build a new one than to regen energy. But that costs 100/100 which I'd much rather spend on something else like +1 Armor
EPT
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