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JIJI_
United States123 Posts
On February 06 2014 00:53 avilo wrote: As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP. Ye that is what I was thinking. | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
On February 06 2014 00:55 Nebuchad wrote: You'll find that it doesn't mean he's protoss, for starters. The argument that suppressing upgrades is bad for the game is one that many people have expressed. I don't really mind killing upgrades myself, but I do think nerfing the sight range of msc and cast range of PO would be a better first tweak to PvT than the ghost change is. Sure it would be better, but after 3 years of watching Blizzard balancing this game, can we still expect reasonably good changes? I dont think so... Of course getting rid of upgrades can be bad for the game, but hell they already have implemented a harassing unit which kills 10 workers per second, an early game unit that can activate a spell which defends any early agression just like a Planetary Fortress, except with no drawback. When you have absurd things like this in the game, I don't see removing upgrades being too bad. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
On February 06 2014 00:53 avilo wrote: As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP. psss they are on a mission to remove as many upgrades as possible (in fact after templar and oracle energy this is already the 3rd energy upgrade removed), it is so much easier than simply adjusting how much energy they give, or touch regeneration or maybe increase max energy. Basically anything besides removing, but they are in it to eventually leave us with as little upgrades as possible. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On February 04 2014 04:26 iHirO wrote: Time to theorycraft a new one base marine build based around emping sentries and mothership cores. One base Marine/Ghost was a thing, long long ago. Highly doubt it will be any stronger now, as the MSC wasn't available in wings and the marine/ghost build was gimmicky at best even back before planetary nexus. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On February 06 2014 01:12 Lorch wrote: psss they are on a mission to remove as many upgrades as possible (in fact after templar and oracle energy this is already the 3rd energy upgrade removed), it is so much easier than simply adjusting how much energy they give, or touch regeneration or maybe increase max energy. Basically anything besides removing, but they are in it to eventually leave us with as little upgrades as possible. yes because removing 3 of the roughly 30 upgrades available is blizzard "leaving us with as little upgrades as possible" They removed HT energy upgrade because warp tech made it OP, they removed the ghost upgrade and gave u it for free because ghosts were not powerful enough. They get rid of upgrades where the unit is either too strong with it, or not strong enough without it built in to the unit, still leaving Stim, Combat shields, concussive shell, blue flame, cloak, storm, colo range, phoenix speed, drilling claws, burrow, bane speed, ling speed, hydra speed, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrowed movement, and many more. They are on anything but a mission to remove upgrades from the game, they are on a mission to balance the game. | ||
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Yonnua
United Kingdom2331 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 06 2014 01:26 Yonnua wrote: One of the best direct utilities of the ghost energy buff is defensively, not offensively. You can now have EMPs out in time to shut down immortal busts and to completely end Oracle harass. No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3711 Posts
On February 06 2014 01:22 emythrel wrote: yes because removing 3 of the roughly 30 upgrades available is blizzard "leaving us with as little upgrades as possible" They removed HT energy upgrade because warp tech made it OP, they removed the ghost upgrade and gave u it for free because ghosts were not powerful enough. They get rid of upgrades where the unit is either too strong with it, or not strong enough without it built in to the unit, still leaving Stim, Combat shields, concussive shell, blue flame, cloak, storm, colo range, phoenix speed, drilling claws, burrow, bane speed, ling speed, hydra speed, hydra range, roach speed, roach burrowed movement, and many more. They are on anything but a mission to remove upgrades from the game, they are on a mission to balance the game. So they could have increased storm cost, maybe have you start with a bit less than 75 etc. pp. but no they don't even try that they just remove it. Ghost are not powerful enough? Mabye because they nerfed the shit out of emp and snipe? But lets just remove more upgrades to balance it. And it's not just three upgrades. They also removed void ray speed (that shit was broken I do admit) and siege mode (which I still don't understand). I just don't see how, similiar to the warhound, their only answer to things is to simply remove them. A rts game allows such a broad option of tweaking things. I mean look at the ghost you can change how much energy what costs, how much it starts with by default, how much its upgrades cost, how much building a ghost itself costs, how powerful the spells are, how much a ghost academy costs, how fast it moves, its hit points, its damage, its max energy (though blizzard apparently wants that to be 200 for everything), what the energy upgrade does etc. pp. But I'm sure by far the best option out of all of those is to remove the energy upgrade. I guess DK gets 2 base templar allind a lot or w/e because after playing thousands of games as terran I don't even know where I'd ever be like "sweet now I can emp in my main". Maybe as mech vs 2 base immortal/archon allins but you can defend them via walloffs and not being too greedy and having decent target firing with your tanks. | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On February 04 2014 11:53 plogamer wrote: Scouting with hallucinations is still an option. PvP with photon overcharge shouldn't be so razor edge that getting a sentry would mean death. As for proxies, scout it like Terrans do. Early scout and count pylons. /edit Either way, the effect will be shared equally by both Protoss. I don't actually know what you mean by "change the PvP match up too much". To all protoss who think this will dramatically change PvP: No. It wont. 1) you can still scout w/ 12 vision 2) you can use your probes 3) 1 hallucination 4) count pylons 5) who cares it's pvp and you both have that disadvantage now + mscore overcharge makes it ez defense | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote: No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. This. I would really like to see a replay or vod with a immortal bust defense with ghosts. | ||
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Cassalina
United States65 Posts
Sad about the hydra though. i don't think a resources buff was the right answer; i just think they could be a little more durable for their cost. like +10 hp or so, even if it came with one of their upgrades (Muscular augments). hydra has been similar to the ghost...the muscular augments buff definatley did its job, but i think it could do a little more too. | ||
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fx9
117 Posts
On February 06 2014 00:53 avilo wrote: It doesn't. It has zero effect/impact on mech. It only buffs bio timings and bio in general. The reason it has no impact on mech is because it's not a mech unit...it has absolutely nothing to do with mech. As myself and other players have said, by the time you get a ghost out and it walks across the map or to a location, you already have enough energy for an EMP. That is true even if you're playing bio. Really, not much changed this last patch for TvP, and in the coming weeks people should realize TvP is exactly the same with the blink all-ins because the time warp "nerf" (if it can even be called that) doesn't matter if the game outright ends from the first blink. A better change that would have impacted mech and done the exact same resource cost cut of 100/100 as the ghost mobius reactor change would have been to reduce armory cost to 100/50, meaning two armories would cost 200/100 together instead of 300/200. That would have affected mech via allowing a mech Terran slightly more gas for infrastructure or to afford their armory earlier on in the game to be able to more reasonably keep up in upgrades with Zerg, but especially Protoss where when you opt for mech you almost always 1 or 2 upgrades behind due to chronoboost and how late you are able to afford the armory in games. There has been no reasonable photon overcharge nerf...no MSC sight range nerf, no reversion of oracle speed...blink is the same...this patch to me seems like it changed absolutely nothing about TvP but was rather an appeasement patch of "hey look we did something" when what they changed impacted the match-up 0%. With the current changes, and the next ones proposed for TvP, I would stake my real life that TvP will remain in as bad shape as it has been 3, 6, or even 1 year from now if these are the only changes blizzard are willing to put through. why do you care about photon overcharge nerf when all you do is just turtle until 200/200 supply and then move out? EMP is huge against protoss, it basically renders 3 of the most high tech units of protoss useless, ie archons, immortals, HT. EMP is the counter to everything protoss has. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 06 2014 01:29 Lorch wrote: So they could have increased storm cost, maybe have you start with a bit less than 75 etc. pp. but no they don't even try that they just remove it. Ghost are not powerful enough? Mabye because they nerfed the shit out of emp and snipe? But lets just remove more upgrades to balance it. And it's not just three upgrades. They also removed void ray speed (that shit was broken I do admit) and siege mode (which I still don't understand). I just don't see how, similiar to the warhound, their only answer to things is to simply remove them. A rts game allows such a broad option of tweaking things. I mean look at the ghost you can change how much energy what costs, how much it starts with by default, how much its upgrades cost, how much building a ghost itself costs, how powerful the spells are, how much a ghost academy costs, how fast it moves, its hit points, its damage, its max energy (though blizzard apparently wants that to be 200 for everything), what the energy upgrade does etc. pp. But I'm sure by far the best option out of all of those is to remove the energy upgrade. I guess DK gets 2 base templar allind a lot or w/e because after playing thousands of games as terran I don't even know where I'd ever be like "sweet now I can emp in my main". Maybe as mech vs 2 base immortal/archon allins but you can defend them via walloffs and not being too greedy and having decent target firing with your tanks. Without Tanks having Siege Mode by default, 1-1-1 builds (after or before expand) in TvP would not be viable since they would automatically lose to things like Blink or simple counter-Stalker pressure. Removing Siege Mode was quite a lazy way to fix that, but at least it made some sense regarding this. Removing Moebius Reactor is just a cosmetic change to appease the crowd. In like 95% of the situations it will simply result in Terran having one extra Medivac by midgame, and that's it. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 06 2014 01:29 Lorch wrote: So they could have increased storm cost, maybe have you start with a bit less than 75 etc. pp. but no they don't even try that they just remove it. Ghost are not powerful enough? Mabye because they nerfed the shit out of emp and snipe? But lets just remove more upgrades to balance it. And it's not just three upgrades. They also removed void ray speed (that shit was broken I do admit) and siege mode (which I still don't understand). I just don't see how, similiar to the warhound, their only answer to things is to simply remove them. A rts game allows such a broad option of tweaking things. I mean look at the ghost you can change how much energy what costs, how much it starts with by default, how much its upgrades cost, how much building a ghost itself costs, how powerful the spells are, how much a ghost academy costs, how fast it moves, its hit points, its damage, its max energy (though blizzard apparently wants that to be 200 for everything), what the energy upgrade does etc. pp. But I'm sure by far the best option out of all of those is to remove the energy upgrade. I guess DK gets 2 base templar allind a lot or w/e because after playing thousands of games as terran I don't even know where I'd ever be like "sweet now I can emp in my main". Maybe as mech vs 2 base immortal/archon allins but you can defend them via walloffs and not being too greedy and having decent target firing with your tanks. What's your obsession with upgrades that do not add decisions? you want siege tanks --> you built siege mode, because without it they can't do what you want them to do you want ghosts --> you built the energy upgrade, because with it they are much better Unless you find a reason why those upgrades offer any interesting strategic potential (which they don't) or why the powers they unlock have to be delayed/cost more you have no argument. Flux Vanes was removed because speed-VRs were to powerful. There was no tweaking needed, just make them regular VRs. Phoenix range was included as an upgrade instead of a straight buff, because just including it in the unit would be way too powerful. Lots of other upgrades are interesting because they are a strategic commital (blue flame, banshee cloak, prism speed, burrow, storm...) or too powerful early (most zerg upgrades, like speed upgrades; blink or stim). But of the small handful that blizzard is removing none falls under those categories. So I don't understand your critics here at all. | ||
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LingBlingBling
United States353 Posts
On February 06 2014 01:28 TheDwf wrote: No one is going to make a Ghost for that... The only defensive utility is against some 2-bases Storm timings, and even then they can be defended without Ghosts, so the upgrade makes little difference in the end. Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
This won't change late game TvP which is what ladder people are complaining about, and it won't really change early game allins which is what professional T's are worrying about. It just makes mid-game T a tad bit stronger. So best case scenario we see a few creative alilns that phase out from the meta once they've been figured out. I think Terran has a lot of cheeses to scout for at the moment. Just make it so half of the maps can't be blink allin-ed on and you pretty much balance professional PvT in my opinion. The Daedalus change is welcome, though. The biggest flaw of that map was the ramp obviously. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
If you said to me we want to give observers +2 armor I'd say HELL YES why not. Do I think it will change anything? Not really.. maybe you save one observer early game from a few marines. But I'll take it... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 06 2014 04:49 LingBlingBling wrote: Can people stop commenting and saying "it makes no difference" when they obviously have no clue what they are talking about? Every Pro Terran Korean and F Terran, likes the ghost change, it means they can tech switch and have ghost out the exact same time storms out if they are scouting properly. Before the tech switch took to long and that's why often you just saw Korean T skip the ghost completely and go marauder heavy and just hope they have sick Maru micro. It makes a big difference now in the mid and late game for Terran to have the emps they will need to match the protoss and it comes down who can micro, Ghost change is not game breaking or op or useless please stop saying that. Ghost change is very reasonable and a good quality life change for Terran in the TVP match up, it effects very little in the other 2 match ups. I'm top50 GM, so odds are my understanding of the game is far superior to yours. The small delay of Moebius Reactor (40 seconds to have Ghosts spawn with 75 energy) was not at all the reason Ghosts were so rarely used in midgame. To put it one sentence, Ghosts are very expensive yet unreliable (you're not guaranteed at all to hit all Templars; actually it's impossible against a competent Protoss); they slow/kill your initiative (producing Ghosts = less Marauders/Medivacs) and thus are more a "lategame-oriented" unit, especially as it takes time for them to have a second EMP (2 minuts 15). But of course no Terran is interested in playing lategame TvP since Protoss is so heavily favored in this phase of the game. Removing Moebius Reactor opens no particular new window offensively because any "early midgame" timing with a few Ghosts (say 3-6) is nullified by spreading Templars and spamming Zealots to hold. The only semi-reliable Ghosts timings are done before Protoss tech switches to Colossi (e. g. Mvp vs San, Whirlwind, IEM Singapore VIII), and since they hit much later than when the Ghost Academy is complete, removing Moebius Reactor has only one effect on them: freeing 100/100. | ||
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