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On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Probably the 0.2% games that are decided by a third Time Warp. What this patch changes is that Protoss has less chances to accidentally win the game with the Zealots/Stalkers/MSC pokes.
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On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change?
Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were.
Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
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On February 06 2014 18:11 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Probably the 0.2% games that are decided by a third Time Warp. What this patch changes is that Protoss has less chances to accidentally win the game with the Zealots/Stalkers/MSC pokes.
Yeah I'm way less likely to use a Time Warp with that push now knowing how much longer it will take for PO to be available at home.
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On February 06 2014 23:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were. Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
I'm really sorry, but is it weird for me to find it only logical that if your all in fails, you're supposed to be vulnerable..?
-ALSO, if you go all in, GO ALL IN. There's no reason to go all in and safe energy for when it backfires. That's like the 1/1/1s that pulled a few scvs - why do you go all in if you don't want to go all in?
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On February 06 2014 23:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were. Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
I think you mean 'aggression'... Early blink is a not really an all-in now.
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On February 06 2014 23:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were. Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed.
So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met:
1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common),
2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards
3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened,
4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already,
4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well
So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack.
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On February 06 2014 23:42 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 23:38 DinoMight wrote:On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were. Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed. I'm really sorry, but is it weird for me to find it only logical that if your all in fails, you're supposed to be vulnerable..? -ALSO, if you go all in, GO ALL IN. There's no reason to go all in and safe energy for when it backfires. That's like the 1/1/1s that pulled a few scvs - why do you go all in if you don't want to go all in?
Easy there buddy, no need to infuse everything with balance whine. I was just simply stating facts.
There were some Blink builds you could transition out of using PO to defend while you got Psi Storm out. Now PO will be really delayed if you Time Warp twice. So it makes the Blink builds a little more all-in.
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On February 06 2014 23:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 23:38 DinoMight wrote:On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were. Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed. So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met: 1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common), 2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards 3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened, 4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already, 4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack.
Sigh, sometimes I wonder why I even post in these forums if all the responses are angry whiny ones like this. This is just not true.
You used to be able to fly in the MsC super early, see kind of what the Terran was doing, poke at SCVs a little and then run the MsC away. You could use a Time Warp to cover your tracks. Now that it costs 25 more energy, doing that severely delays your first PO at home, so Protoss does have to be more careful about their TW usage. Not just in that very specific scenario you described but in others as well.
It's a small nerf, but one that means we have to be a lot more picky about when to use it. And it does open up good stim timings if the Protoss overuses it.
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On February 07 2014 00:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2014 23:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 23:38 DinoMight wrote:On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were. Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed. So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met: 1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common), 2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards 3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened, 4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already, 4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack. Sigh, sometimes I wonder why I even post in these forums if all the responses are angry whiny ones like this. This is just not true. You used to be able to fly in the MsC super early, see kind of what the Terran was doing, poke at SCVs a little and then run the MsC away. You could use a Time Warp to cover your tracks. Now that it costs 25 more energy, doing that severely delays your first PO at home, so Protoss does have to be more careful about their TW usage. Not just in that very specific scenario you described but in others as well. It's a small nerf, but one that means we have to be a lot more picky about when to use it. And it does open up good stim timings if the Protoss overuses it.
How is that whiny? As you said, I'm trying to understand the facts. With regard to the blink attack, how does it change?
I listed the conditions to be met for a change. Just 'have to be more careful' is too vague, there has to be a concrete timing that we're talking about.
Each use of TW is now +25 energy. Energy regeneration is such that it takes about 44 in-game seconds to replenish. So each timing has to be within those energy replenish rates.
Btw, interestingly, the msc only takes 30 sec to build. So, if you're at less than 33 energy, and you need a PO in the quickest time, it's better to sac the msc and build a new one.
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On February 07 2014 00:07 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2014 00:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 06 2014 23:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On February 06 2014 23:38 DinoMight wrote:On February 06 2014 10:40 Ghanburighan wrote:
So, just saw the first blink stalker attack (ex all-in) since the patch, and the P cast two time warps... So what exactly was that patch supposed to change? Using 2 TIme Warps sends you back to zero energy. If your allin fails and the Terran counters you're WAY more vulnerable than you were. Also it used to be possible to Time warp twice, wait a little, then do it again. Now you need 75 extra energy for the 3rd time warp so it will be very delayed. So, let me get this straight, it matters when each of the following conditions are met: 1) You use 2 time warps in the attack (which isn't actually that common), 2) You lose your attack immediately afterwards 3) the terran races you across the map immediately, so that they arrive inside the 88.xx second window now opened, 4) you have not transitioned into something* like templars/colossus already, 4') the terran has not magically transitioned into their* counter as well So it's basically a contingent 88 in-game second window to counter-attack. Sigh, sometimes I wonder why I even post in these forums if all the responses are angry whiny ones like this. This is just not true. You used to be able to fly in the MsC super early, see kind of what the Terran was doing, poke at SCVs a little and then run the MsC away. You could use a Time Warp to cover your tracks. Now that it costs 25 more energy, doing that severely delays your first PO at home, so Protoss does have to be more careful about their TW usage. Not just in that very specific scenario you described but in others as well. It's a small nerf, but one that means we have to be a lot more picky about when to use it. And it does open up good stim timings if the Protoss overuses it. How is that whiny? As you said, I'm trying to understand the facts. With regard to the blink attack, how does it change? I listed the conditions to be met for a change. Just 'have to be more careful' is too vague, there has to be a concrete timing that we're talking about. Each use of TW is now +25 energy. Energy regeneration is such that it takes about 44 in-game seconds to replenish. So each timing has to be within those energy replenish rates. Btw, interestingly, the msc only takes 30 sec to build. So, if you're at less than 33 energy, and you need a PO in the quickest time, it's better to sac the msc and build a new one.
"Terran can only do X in this tiny little window" always sounds whiny to me. You're way exaggerating how limited Terran is and how small the window is.
I don't think "having to be more careful" is too vague. The game is very dynamic and fluid and often things don't turn out as you expected them to. Sometimes you have to think on the fly and make decisions on the spot. Now your Time Warp usage can't be as free as pre-patch.
Imagine they made forcefields require more energy (say 15 more energy per FF). You could still do certain builds, but you would need to be a lot more accurate with your forcefields and a lot pickier about when you choose to engage.
I think it's the same with the MsC in PvT. Sure you can still Time Warp twice, but you better know that you won't need to PO for a while otherwise you're leaving yourself vunlerable for an extra 50 energy regen time (compared to pre patch). Now you have to decide if it's really worth floating the MSC in to pick off the 1 SCV building the supply depot in the corner since you can't cover your escape with a Time Warp (or doing so would leave you vulnerable without a PO for longer). That sort of thing.
And yes, good point. It's sometimes faster to just sac the MsC and build a new one than to regen energy. But that costs 100/100 which I'd much rather spend on something else like +1 Armor
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EPT
