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On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
Be honest now, you've never played a TvP with mech once in your life, did you? Also, you have't seen any high level pro games like this either, have you?
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On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
A meching Terran is not like bio and can go dual armory (like ebay) and expect to survive any early push. One can only sustain two armories if they are only producing out of one factory - in which case it is extremely risky PvT. Therefore, any meching Terran will always be behind in upgrades.
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On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote:On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote:
Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell.
No, that composition cannot take on Colossi without Vikings currently. The Protoss can come in with many colossi from angles at which only few tanks shoot, pick them off and retreat and heal his shields. Currently with Mech you still need Vikings (or banshees) to combat colossi. If you do, Colossi are one of the least scary units to face, but you still have to invest into that kind of stuff.
And those compositions absolutly cannot take on storms without giving a shit. 1-2 storms and all your hellbats get countered by zealots, not to mention the extra damage archon do. 1 storm into sieged tanks (which isn't that hard to get off, since tanks will focus everything else first) and all you need is a single immortal shot per tank to clean them up.
Immortals also don't cost 250gas, they cost 100 gas. And yes, you need more than 4-5 ghosts to blanket EMP everything, not to mention that a good Protoss will still pick off your ghosts with Feedbacks and Colossi, just like they do with ghosts when they play against bio.
And all of that is assuming that you can freely mass units against a groundbased Protoss, which is not the only possibility a Protoss has to deal with Mech.
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Like any fight ever takes 40 seconds.
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On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is.
Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
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On January 04 2014 04:35 Ravomat wrote:
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore.
You just posted all the reason why it needs to be changed. We have no timings or all ins to hit with the current overcharge. Delaying it by 25 energy will make you guys not go double tech and actually scout for the timings and all ins.
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On January 04 2014 05:34 PVJ wrote:
Like any fight ever takes 40 seconds.
Like that's actually what PO is most useful for lol
POs main strength is to delay pushes
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On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this.
I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too.
( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
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On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
It's is pretty dumb. Who cares about upgrades and what is fee or not free? I mean, Zerg has the most reason to bitch if we want to talk about split upgrades. But who cares?
At the end of the day, blizzard is going to keep doing little, non-game destroying buffs to mech until it's viable.
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On January 04 2014 05:34 CrayonSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:35 Ravomat wrote:
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. You just posted all the reason why it needs to be changed. We have no timings or all ins to hit with the current overcharge. Delaying it by 25 energy will make you guys not go double tech and actually scout for the timings and all ins.
This would utterly neuter the spell. What would you think about the usefulness of a spell that is supposed to help defend early aggression but doesn't? Is an energy cost increase all you can come up with?
Also I'm pretty sure you can punish a Protoss that is teching too heavily, just ask Select.
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I don't understand how building the energy upgrade into the Ghost for easier EMP access would be a buff to mech in particular. If anything it sounds to me like it would help bio because storm is easier to deal with.
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On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx )
Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields) is 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous.
I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke.
When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air.
Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran. That is if they actually buff the tank to a respectable level.
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On January 04 2014 06:42 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx ) Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous. I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke. When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air. Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran.
Are you for real this biased ?
Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100
Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100
I don't count building.
You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot.
Anyway I don't know why I even try to argue with you, because saying skyterran > skyprotoss is already being totally out of knowledge of the game.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On January 04 2014 06:48 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 06:42 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx ) Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous. I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke. When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air. Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran. Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building. You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot.
His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates.
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On January 04 2014 06:49 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 06:48 Faust852 wrote:On January 04 2014 06:42 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx ) Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous. I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke. When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air. Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran. Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building. You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot. His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates.
This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss?
This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time.
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On January 04 2014 07:14 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 06:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On January 04 2014 06:48 Faust852 wrote:On January 04 2014 06:42 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx ) Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous. I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke. When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air. Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran. Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building. You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot. His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates. This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss? This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time.
Wtf are you talking about? Mech upgrades that are combined in theory but never come into play in actual pro level games?
Trying to reason with people as biased as you, thats the waste of time.
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Ok, I am going to talk only about Zerg matchups. Photon overcharge won't change almost anything so I don't care.It's not like it will suddenly save me from this ridiculous void ray colossi storm bullshit.
Roach burrow movement. Sure, why not. It will affect only ZvP obviously because you will be able to run below forcefields faster.
Buff mech... Buff mech? Buff mech??!!!!! BUFF MECH?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE U KIDDING ME?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Playing vs. these absolutely atrocious unskilled slow pricks with 100 apm camping for fucking 50 minutes with their ravens without doing shit is the most frustrating thing I have experienced in my gaming career. It makes me wanna vommit before I kill myself. It makes me wanna stop playing this game. It's the most unfair shit ever where total retard like goody can beat godly superskilled beasts... And... What does David Kimchi say? Let's buff it! Holy shit he is a retard.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I'lll stop arguing with playa, since he considers himself a pro. (Hell, he said it himself).
On January 04 2014 07:19 SpeedyBozar wrote:
Ok, I am going to talk only about Zerg matchups. Photon overcharge won't change almost anything so I don't care.It's not like it will suddenly save me from this ridiculous void ray colossi storm bullshit.
Roach burrow movement. Sure, why not. It will affect only ZvP obviously because you will be able to run below forcefields faster.
Buff mech... Buff mech? Buff mech??!!!!! BUFF MECH?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE U KIDDING ME?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Playing vs. these absolutely atrocious unskilled slow pricks with 100 apm camping for fucking 50 minutes with their ravens without doing shit is the most frustrating thing I have experienced in my gaming career. It makes me wanna vommit before I kill myself. It makes me wanna stop playing this game. It's the most unfair shit ever where total retard like goody can beat godly superskilled beasts... And... What does David Kimchi say? Let's buff it! Holy shit he is a retard.
I think Blizzard want to buff mech in the TvP way, as they said, by tweaking EMP or so, but It shouldn't change much in TvZ I think. Hell, even if they buffed the tank, that wouldn't change anything in TvZ since the main problem is lategame raven/viking compo if you don't know how to deal with it.
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EPT
