• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:06
CEST 19:06
KST 02:06
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors14[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists19[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers22Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament INu's Battles#14 <BO.9 2Matches> GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh: This Will Be My Final ASL【ASL S21 Ro.16】 Leta's ASL S21 Ro.16 review ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro16 Group D Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Diablo IV Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread 3D technology/software discussion European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2060 users

Jan 2nd Balance Test Map - Page 27

Forum Index > SC2 General
757 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 25 26 27 28 29 38 Next All
Waise
Profile Joined June 2013
3165 Posts
January 04 2014 00:11 GMT
#521
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 04 2014 00:15 GMT
#522
On January 04 2014 09:11 Waise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?

I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.

Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
January 04 2014 00:17 GMT
#523
On January 04 2014 09:15 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:11 Waise wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?

I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.

Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.


Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Squat
Profile Joined September 2013
Sweden7978 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 00:35:30
January 04 2014 00:17 GMT
#524
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a reason not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
"Digital. They have digital. What is digital?" - Donald J Trump
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 04 2014 00:20 GMT
#525
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote:
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.


ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.

#stupidlogic
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 04 2014 00:20 GMT
#526
On January 04 2014 09:17 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:15 Plansix wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Waise wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?

I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.

Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.


Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.

I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:

"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob"
"No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".

But I have high standards sometimes.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 04 2014 00:26 GMT
#527
On January 04 2014 09:20 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:17 Ghanburighan wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:15 Plansix wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Waise wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?

I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.

Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.


Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.

I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:

"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob"
"No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".

But I have high standards sometimes.


Hey, I would even be OK with that, if people would
a) realize it's personal taste and not up for discussion
b) do so without shitting on all other races/matchups ("TvT is the best matchup, because PvP is shit and...")
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
January 04 2014 00:26 GMT
#528
On January 04 2014 09:20 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:17 Ghanburighan wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:15 Plansix wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Waise wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?

I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.

Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.


Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.

I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:

"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob"
"No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".

But I have high standards sometimes.


If you have high standards for posting, lead the way. Be a role model. Knowing your posting habits, I'd say that requires a wee bit of elevation on your part
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 04 2014 00:31 GMT
#529
On January 04 2014 09:26 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:20 Plansix wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:17 Ghanburighan wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:15 Plansix wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Waise wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?

I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.

Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.


Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.

I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:

"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob"
"No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".

But I have high standards sometimes.


If you have high standards for posting, lead the way. Be a role model. Knowing your posting habits, I'd say that requires a wee bit of elevation on your part

You're turn, I already did. See example from above:

"Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work."

See, I wanted to discuss a real, early game timing and not ether and theory craft.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
-HuShang-
Profile Joined December 2012
Canada393 Posts
January 04 2014 00:40 GMT
#530
On January 04 2014 09:31 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:26 Ghanburighan wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:20 Plansix wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:17 Ghanburighan wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:15 Plansix wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Waise wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:11 Plansix wrote:
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.

Ready? GO!

I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!

i'm not sure what the alternative to arguing about personal opinions is. should we close the forum? or are we supposed to be posting nothing but facts, which would mean the pool of data available to us is basically winrates and unit statistics?

I think we can discuss stuff without measuring which match up gave us the "best games" and "most amazing Esports moments" and other shit posts like that. There are smarter discussions to be had out there.

Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work.


Better close the TL news section then Why else are we here if not to celebrate the best that StarCraft has brought us.

I'm all for celbrating SC2, but I think we can do better than:

"No TvT is the best mirror match, noob"
"No, scrub, TvZ is the best match up period. Must beautiful games of all time".

But I have high standards sometimes.


If you have high standards for posting, lead the way. Be a role model. Knowing your posting habits, I'd say that requires a wee bit of elevation on your part

You're turn, I already did. See example from above:

"Like, with the the PO only lasting 40 seconds, does the terran have a window to attack early if they can bait it out? That is basically one warp in cycle, so can does it provide room to pressure the protoss? Show you work."

See, I wanted to discuss a real, early game timing and not ether and theory craft.


Considering there are already timing windows with the 60s PO...
Professional Starcraft 2 Coach & Caster | Message me for more info or business proposals
Squat
Profile Joined September 2013
Sweden7978 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 00:41:43
January 04 2014 00:41 GMT
#531
On January 04 2014 09:20 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote:
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.


ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.

#stupidlogic

No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.

The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
"Digital. They have digital. What is digital?" - Donald J Trump
BadBorz
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada61 Posts
January 04 2014 00:58 GMT
#532
When a patch against maphack?...
Wingblade
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1806 Posts
January 04 2014 01:00 GMT
#533
On January 04 2014 09:41 Squat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:20 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote:
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.


ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.

#stupidlogic

No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.

The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.


I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
PartinG fanboy to the max, Rain/Squirtle/Dear/Scarlett/Bbyong are cool too. I don't always watch Dota2 but when I do I have no clue what's going on. GOGO POWER RANGERS
Edogaa
Profile Joined January 2012
United States10 Posts
January 04 2014 01:02 GMT
#534
On behalf of tigerSC2 he suggests tanks fire two shots after researching. The first shot to catch act as a shield damage shell and the second the current tank shot. Both acting in aoe.
Secondly thors need their air weapons to be changed. They should retain their splash attack but the unit targeted should take additional impact damage. This way magic box will still have its place, but its effectiveness will reduce as muta numbers reduce.

Again, not my suggestions, but someone wanted me to post this to talk about it for some reason. :/ So I figured, "Why not?" Though, to be honest I disagree with the EMP tank idea.

Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
January 04 2014 01:03 GMT
#535
On January 04 2014 09:41 Squat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:20 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote:
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.


ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.

#stupidlogic

No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.

The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.


PvP early game was in pretty good shape before HotS came in with cheaper DTs, oracles and a MsC that can be used for blink and gateway rushes. If you disagree, I advise you to watch PvP form late 2012 and 2013, which had hardly any problems with early game rushes being too strong. HotS MsC is a fix to HotS introductions to this matchup.

So if you break PvP with a nerf to PO you are
purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none.
, just as in the scan example.

And I'm not #stupidthinging anything I disagree with. I'm stupidthinging anything that is either a matter of personal taste or a matter of logically wrong, as your example of "when you break PvP it's not because you broke it".
Squat
Profile Joined September 2013
Sweden7978 Posts
January 04 2014 01:08 GMT
#536
On January 04 2014 10:00 Wingblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:41 Squat wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:20 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote:
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.


ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.

#stupidlogic

No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.

The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.


I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.

Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.

As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
"Digital. They have digital. What is digital?" - Donald J Trump
Squat
Profile Joined September 2013
Sweden7978 Posts
January 04 2014 01:17 GMT
#537
On January 04 2014 10:03 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 09:41 Squat wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:20 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote:
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.


ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.

#stupidlogic

No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.

The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.


PvP early game was in pretty good shape before HotS came in with cheaper DTs, oracles and a MsC that can be used for blink and gateway rushes. If you disagree, I advise you to watch PvP form late 2012 and 2013, which had hardly any problems with early game rushes being too strong. HotS MsC is a fix to HotS introductions to this matchup.

So if you break PvP with a nerf to PO you are
Show nested quote +
purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none.
, just as in the scan example.

And I'm not #stupidthinging anything I disagree with. I'm stupidthinging anything that is either a matter of personal taste or a matter of logically wrong, as your example of "when you break PvP it's not because you broke it".

But then the problems are with oracles, cheap DTs and the MSC as a whole, basically the whole HotS package made PvP bad. It can't be helped or reversed at this point, it is what is. Avoiding a minor nerf to MSC that can help PvT and PvZ because PvP ended up being shit in HotS is not a good reason. The nerf to PO isn't what is making it bad, HotS made it bad, and PO has just swept the problems under rug for a while. My logic is fine, and frankly your puerile "ur stupid" is becoming irritating.

Should worse come to worst, it's still a mirror so it's still balanced even if the gameplay is bad. The none mirror match ups take precedence, balance is more important that gameplay. Saying we should not nerf PO because it helps mitigate the underlying issues of PvP is a terrible argument.
"Digital. They have digital. What is digital?" - Donald J Trump
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
January 04 2014 01:25 GMT
#538
Honestly, I don't really like the nerf approach. If PO gets nerfed, how about some buff for protoss to compensate? For example.. -10 sec to warpgate research? I've never understood why this thing got nerfed so hard in WoL. Yes, 4 gate all-in but it was overnerfed at some point.
Fission
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada1184 Posts
January 04 2014 01:44 GMT
#539
I really wish Blizz would release hard data about the matchup balance for every level of skill. We know they have an enormous wealth of statistical data, but they are stubbornly refusing to share it, which has resulted in hyperbole and murky anecdotal evidence being all we have. Is random reddit poster #324242 correct when they assert that PvT seems broken at X skill level? We have no way of knowing.

Perhaps the game really and truly is fairly well balanced at all skill levels and current opinion is just a run-away train of discontent. Perhaps it's utterly and completely broken at some or all skill levels. How are we supposed to give feedback on whether or not changes seem appropriate when we have no idea if there's anything truly wrong? I can't trust my own experience. I thought terran was underpowered at the start of WoL, for fucks' sake. Of course my opinion is going to be skewed by my own inadequacy. We need objectivity if things are going to get better.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-04 01:49:39
January 04 2014 01:45 GMT
#540
On January 04 2014 10:17 Squat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2014 10:03 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:41 Squat wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:20 Big J wrote:
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote:
The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.

I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.


ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.

#stupidlogic

No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.

The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.


PvP early game was in pretty good shape before HotS came in with cheaper DTs, oracles and a MsC that can be used for blink and gateway rushes. If you disagree, I advise you to watch PvP form late 2012 and 2013, which had hardly any problems with early game rushes being too strong. HotS MsC is a fix to HotS introductions to this matchup.

So if you break PvP with a nerf to PO you are
purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none.
, just as in the scan example.

And I'm not #stupidthinging anything I disagree with. I'm stupidthinging anything that is either a matter of personal taste or a matter of logically wrong, as your example of "when you break PvP it's not because you broke it".

But then the problems are with oracles, cheap DTs and the MSC as a whole, basically the whole HotS package made PvP bad. It can't be helped or reversed at this point, it is what is. Avoiding a minor nerf to MSC that can help PvT and PvZ because PvP ended up being shit in HotS is not a good reason. The nerf to PO isn't what is making it bad, HotS made it bad, and PO has just swept the problems under rug for a while. My logic is fine, and frankly your puerile "ur stupid" is becoming irritating.

Should worse come to worst, it's still a mirror so it's still balanced even if the gameplay is bad. The none mirror match ups take precedence, balance is more important that gameplay. Saying we should not nerf PO because it helps mitigate the underlying issues of PvP is a terrible argument.


No, it did not make it bad, because there is a Mothership Core in HotS. It's a fact that it is here and that the gameplay has been figured/balanced as it is because it has been here.
It's the scan example all over again, the scan is required as it is, because gameplay has been figured/balanced around it.

It's an interactive game, you can't remove some screws and then say that the apparate has been broken all along, despite it working before.


And I can partly agree that if it is 2nonmirrors vs 1mirror that can be improved/worsened, I would usually take the 2nonmirrors. Just that I think that it rather makes PvZ worse (is there any problem with PO currently? not really... but if Gateway expands become unavailable because of nerfs to the PO, jokes on you because it makes the matchup much worse and less diverse). Also I don't believe we should buff tanks eternally until only Mech is viable in TvT, if it is required to make Mech playable in TvZ and TvP. There are borders how much you want to sacrifice of a matchup for another one...
Prev 1 25 26 27 28 29 38 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#49
RotterdaM624
TKL 214
IndyStarCraft 186
SteadfastSC132
BRAT_OK 127
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 624
Hui .235
TKL 214
IndyStarCraft 186
BRAT_OK 127
SteadfastSC 124
UpATreeSC 81
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 5125
EffOrt 1129
actioN 573
Stork 483
ggaemo 382
Free 225
PianO 82
Hyun 78
Barracks 69
Shinee 62
[ Show more ]
ajuk12(nOOB) 36
Killer 34
Bale 29
Sacsri 26
Sexy 25
soO 25
HiyA 20
Terrorterran 17
910 17
GoRush 14
Dota 2
qojqva5107
BananaSlamJamma321
Counter-Strike
fl0m966
byalli665
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King91
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor246
Other Games
Grubby3058
singsing2006
B2W.Neo1203
ceh9599
Beastyqt331
KnowMe315
Sick201
crisheroes193
C9.Mang079
Trikslyr48
MindelVK12
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream372
Other Games
BasetradeTV141
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 8
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 89
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 36
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3827
• TFBlade933
Other Games
• WagamamaTV480
• Shiphtur237
• imaqtpie206
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 54m
Replay Cast
15h 54m
Afreeca Starleague
16h 54m
Leta vs YSC
GSL
1d 16h
Rogue vs Percival
Zoun vs Solar
Replay Cast
2 days
GSL
2 days
Cure vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Bunny
The PondCast
2 days
KCM Race Survival
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
Escore
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
IPSL
4 days
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
BSL
6 days
IPSL
6 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Jaedong vs Light
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W4
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.