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People should remember that a buff to mech is a buff to BIOmech.
Terrans are TIRED to play the same thing in TvP since 4 years. They are TIRED to play more and more bio based games in TvZ too. VIEWERS are tired of it too. And Z/P complain all the time than T are doing the same thing every game.
A buff to mech units will be a buff to LOTS of playstyles. Who hated to see/play tvz marinetank? Who would like to see some more crazy compos like marauder hellbat TvP? Or even bioplay switching to mech slowly like BW TvZ?
Hell it can removes bio from one matchup completly for biomech or even mech only. It'll be a good thing aniway.
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I dont understand how DK can say all thi stupid things he wrote like "thoughs". MScore from 60 to 40 sec PO is a joke.Same as the supposed tank buff.This is how Blizz balance the game?
I want to see DK showing a TvP cheese before 10 min.Mvp won 4:3 the GSL with 2 rax proxy.This now is not possible.Neither Zerg or Terran will begin to win only by decreasing the PO with 20 miserable seconds.He said there is no data to see P OP in the game,because there are a few tournaments. How can he explain my games are almost 50% against P, 40% vs Z and 10% vs T in the ladder? Isnt this enough? There are too many P in the ladder man.They are winnig lot of tournaments, but will you wait as you did with WoL?I suppose the game will be balanced in 2016 with LotV...
The roach burrow speed is another joke.Who cares??? In 4 years I have never face this, NEVER and now wont change. If you may make them able to kill while burrowed, maybe people will began to use them...Actually Zerg got only the infestor able to spanw terrans while invisible and killing or the SH used only in PvZ...In the prebeta vods there were SH fighting agains Terran armies of tanks and marines...What happened to this? The feedback about this change is just this one: NO ONE CARES, David Kim, and will continue even if you buff roaches to 7 speed...
Mech changes. Buffing ghosts. Really? Buffing BIO unit to buff MECH?? REALLY? Better Tank vs armored??? Tanks are dying to Chargelots,archons and immortals.Nobody cares if they are better against armored. Roaches and TvT will be f...d.Is it really so difficult to add some +50 damage to protoss shields???Just this. Try it please. Just try it.
Mech air? What is this?? Vikings+banshee+Battlecruisers? You will never see this in TvP. Maybe in TvT late game, but in TvP you wont survive till late game dying to chargelots runbies,storm drops or DT harass being sieged in the other side of the map. Masssive Prism Warpins are nice too. Mech air is slow and will do nothing to this. Ghosts buffed will only improve TvP BIO even more.
David Kim, why dont you play some show match TvP with any of your game designer or from the balance team trying mech and try to explain why are you winning or losing?
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United States7483 Posts
On January 08 2014 06:10 MTAC wrote:
People should remember that a buff to mech is a buff to BIOmech.
Terrans are TIRED to play the same thing in TvP since 4 years. They are TIRED to play more and more bio based games in TvZ too. VIEWERS are tired of it too. And Z/P complain all the time than T are doing the same thing every game.
A buff to mech units will be a buff to LOTS of playstyles. Who hated to see/play tvz marinetank? Who would like to see some more crazy compos like marauder hellbat TvP? Or even bioplay switching to mech slowly like BW TvZ?
Hell it can removes bio from one matchup completly for biomech or even mech only. It'll be a good thing aniway.
It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd (for TvZ anyway), since mutas are the reason marine/tank is dead, not the ground stuff. Mutas are too fast and regen too quickly for marine/tank.
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It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd
Cheaper and more easily massables tanks could make marine tank live again, as it won't cut the same way into the marine numbers while getting the fire power. Maybe marine-tank is dead but this way marine/tank/mine maybe?
At least that kind of change wont kill any strategy in either MU but could allow for more diversity. This and a change for transfo upgrade to make EVERY transformation faster could be cool.
I'd like that kind of change better because it could hardly be OP as tanks are shit right now, IMO i would drop the cost even to 125/75 and don't change anything else. tanks will still be shit, but you would easily have like 9/10 tanks mid game + mines a few thors and HB. Enough to defend at home and attack.
At least that way it'll kill Turtle into mass raven/BC/thor we are seeing in TvZ/TvP. but a slight nerf to raven could be cool this way.
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Here is what I like to see for the tank buff:
+3 range. This is needed since all the new maps are huge and to compensate for mech's lack of mobility.
+40 single target damage as a tech lab upgrade. This allows tanks to better counter archons, zealots, and other gateway units.
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On January 08 2014 20:53 Loccstana wrote:
Here is what I like to see for the tank buff:
+3 range. This is needed since all the new maps are huge and to compensate for mech's lack of mobility.
+40 single target damage as a tech lab upgrade. This allows tanks to better counter archons, zealots, and other gateway units.
Those things DO affect outsize PvT mech. so that is not a good option
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4713 Posts
On January 08 2014 20:46 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd Cheaper and more easily massables tanks could make marine tank live again, as it won't cut the same way into the marine numbers while getting the fire power. Maybe marine-tank is dead but this way marine/tank/mine maybe? At least that kind of change wont kill any strategy in either MU but could allow for more diversity. This and a change for transfo upgrade to make EVERY transformation faster could be cool. I'd like that kind of change better because it could hardly be OP as tanks are shit right now, IMO i would drop the cost even to 125/75 and don't change anything else. tanks will still be shit, but you would easily have like 9/10 tanks mid game + mines a few thors and HB. Enough to defend at home and attack. At least that way it'll kill Turtle into mass raven/BC/thor we are seeing in TvZ/TvP. but a slight nerf to raven could be cool this way.
No, cheaper tanks won't bring marine tank back, because it doesn't solve the core issue with tanks sucking against zerg, compared to mines because.
Mines shoot at air.
Mines require detection to decimate.
Mines are more mobile and have shorter setup time.
Mines are still way faster and cheaper to produce.
If you want marine tank, then you need to nerf mutas. To buff tanks to a level reasonable enough that they are worth getting over mines, would mean buffing them to a level where they are too good vs everything else and you cause more problems.
Its way better to just nerf mutas, either cut regen by half, or movement speed by 0.25 or maybe even both. Would also solve the stupid issue of some zergs refusing to fight toss head on and just going for wack a-mole base race starts with mutalisk, in both ZvT and ZvP.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 09 2014 02:40 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 20:46 MTAC wrote:It doesn't really matter how much tanks are buffed unless they become completely absurd Cheaper and more easily massables tanks could make marine tank live again, as it won't cut the same way into the marine numbers while getting the fire power. Maybe marine-tank is dead but this way marine/tank/mine maybe? At least that kind of change wont kill any strategy in either MU but could allow for more diversity. This and a change for transfo upgrade to make EVERY transformation faster could be cool. I'd like that kind of change better because it could hardly be OP as tanks are shit right now, IMO i would drop the cost even to 125/75 and don't change anything else. tanks will still be shit, but you would easily have like 9/10 tanks mid game + mines a few thors and HB. Enough to defend at home and attack. At least that way it'll kill Turtle into mass raven/BC/thor we are seeing in TvZ/TvP. but a slight nerf to raven could be cool this way. No, cheaper tanks won't bring marine tank back, because it doesn't solve the core issue with tanks sucking against zerg, compared to mines because. Mines shoot at air. Mines require detection to decimate. Mines are more mobile and have shorter setup time. Mines are still way faster and cheaper to produce. If you want marine tank, then you need to nerf mutas. To buff tanks to a level reasonable enough that they are worth getting over mines, would mean buffing them to a level where they are too good vs everything else and you cause more problems. Its way better to just nerf mutas, either cut regen by half, or movement speed by 0.25 or maybe even both. Would also solve the stupid issue of some zergs refusing to fight toss head on and just going for wack a-mole base race starts with mutalisk, in both ZvT and ZvP.
Not gonna lie, mutas are pretty dumb in ZvP. The matchup as a whole might be balanced, but the only response from toss to Mutas is immediate base trade or go phoenix ASAP, and muta/corrupter is a royal bitch and a half to fight with phoenix. Protoss ground units can't deal with mutalisks at all.
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i cant speak for terrans but for me it feels like zerg is still the weakest race. and its the least fun race to play.
i would love to see mutas nerfed and infestors being playable again and not die to drops. i dont want the old infestor back but it has to be something like extra damage to energy units or so. that you get rewarded for catching medivacs and then dont have any more energy to defend against the ground army.
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People are still posting useless "Buff Damage/Give New Ability Changes". So I'm just going to reiterate what I said earlier:
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It really irks me the way all the randoms in here are coming up with unnecessarily complicated band-aid applications in order to "fix" mech. Mech cannot be fixed in its current state, because it was BROKEN from the start.
There are 3 things which break Mech:
1. Protoss units in general. The Immortal, Zealot, Stalker, Archon, Tempest, Voidray etc etc all hard/soft counter Mech in some way shape or form. This is undisputed knowledge and anyone arguing against this needs to go back and review the match up. Terran units do not have much in response and are either at a mobility disadvantage or cannot match the quantity of counters that Protoss has against it. You can say "Ghosts", but by that time the Terran is already trying to build Tanks, Thors, Ravens and Vikings.. Lets not talk about a heavy air transition here.
2. Maps. I've said this several times but I always get lambasted for it. The maps are utterly trash. I remember the early days of WoL where Terran fully abused the varied maps (of which they had much better thought and imagination poured into them) whilst the other 2 races were utterly clueless and cried imba. I saw Thor drops, Tank suppression from ledges overlooking greedy expands, height differences and blind spots which encouraged positional play and positions of power. I have not seen that since Antigua Shipyard. Mech can't function properly on these ridiculously huge maps with wide open planes, lots of dead air spaces and pretty much no chokes or positions of defence or slow pushing.
3. This is the most important point. What safeguards alot of the common strats of Zerg and Protoss? A unit with good utility and supply efficiency. For Zergs, this is the Roach and for Protoss, this is the Zealot. These are units with flat damage, few hard counters and are good (or do reasonably well) against virtually every other unit. They are also easy to build en masse. Terran only has this option in the Marine, Marines are ridiculously efficient, kill everything in large enough numbers and have the cost and supply to justify high numbers of them. But that is Bio and a completely different tech path from Mech (its interesting how the other 2 races do not deviate so much from a core tech path no matter what the lategame build is apart from Terran). Mech has no such unit. In the campaign, this is the Goliath - excellent utility, attacks both land and air, easily produced. In the HoTS beta, this was the Warhound (same thing but cluster rockets was just imba). It would have been the Hell Bat but it got nerfed, now it can't even kill a Zealot on equal tech. Terran Mech needs such a unit to act as a buffer and provide missing utility that would take a Mech army 4 different units to provide.
Giving Tanks EMP attack will not solve because Immortals and Archons will still 2 shot mech and Chargelots are still beefy enough to close the distance and start dicing the Mech. Increasing the flat damage (at least without DRASTICALLY rethinking map design) also will not help, because there is no circumstance or opportunity to take advantage of it when a Protoss army is so much more mobile on these huge, open maps. Its either you nerf Protoss into the ground, or Terran needs a new unit! That or Terrans just accept that you cannot go full Mech and instead go Bio Mech with Marines as good utility.
Utility should be a keyword in this game from now on.
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Mech is also at a fairly OK place in T v Z although weak to Swarmhosts and tech switches between Ultra and Broodlord Corruptor. Mass Roach timings also damage Mech progression quite a bit. But skill plays an important part in this MU and if the Terran is the better player then he will usually win. If we were to goo through changes of buffing damage of giving new abilities then Zergs would never win vs Mech.
So be careful what you are saying and I think a mod should really start keeping an eye on some of the posting here.. it just reads like bnet forums now.
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On January 09 2014 04:10 TheManInBlack wrote:
So be careful what you are saying and I think a mod should really start keeping an eye on some of the posting here.. it just reads like bnet forums now.
Says the guy who literally just re-posted his prior post. I like to read other people's ideas on how to address the situation, even if they go against your theory.
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On January 09 2014 04:19 Prime Directive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 04:10 TheManInBlack wrote:
So be careful what you are saying and I think a mod should really start keeping an eye on some of the posting here.. it just reads like bnet forums now. Says the guy who literally just re-posted his prior post. I like to read other people's ideas on how to address the situation, even if they go against your theory.
I rewrote it because I thought it had an interesting take on the situation rather than devolving into "buff this" and "give this unit this ability" spam that would fit more in bnet forums. All I see here is whining and I'll be honest it irritated me that my post was ignored so other people can post their inane (and quite frankly ill-thought out) ideas.
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So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
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I'm fine with buffing Terran mech as long as Zerg AA is buffed. But that won't happen until LotV.
Queen speed upgrade coming LotV to address Zerg's poor AA.
Also a Hellbat/Thor combine upgrade that increases it's movement speed when it transforms into a semi truck. Takes 1 second to transform. Blizzard will call him Optimus Prime. Calling it now.
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On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote:
So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ?
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On January 12 2014 01:22 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote:
So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ?
I think people completely skipped tanks and just massed warhound instead because it was just that good
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On January 12 2014 01:34 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 01:22 goody153 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote:
So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ? I think people completely skipped tanks and just massed warhound instead because it was just that good
It was an anti mechanical unit, and all Protoss units that are not light are mechanical. So Hellbat Warhound was all you really needed. It didn't fix mech, it replaced it with a generic move and shoot army. Worst unit ever.
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On January 12 2014 01:45 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 01:34 ETisME wrote:On January 12 2014 01:22 goody153 wrote:On January 10 2014 20:54 drkcid wrote:
So, 10 months later, people reaalize that T needs Warhound back to make Mech viable against P. That way we can finally do something else than Bio everywhere and every mach.
as far as i can remember warhound + tanks is like bio-tank comp right ? I think people completely skipped tanks and just massed warhound instead because it was just that good It was an anti mechanical unit, and all Protoss units that are not light are mechanical. So Hellbat Warhound was all you really needed. It didn't fix mech, it replaced it with a generic move and shoot army. Worst unit ever.
Worst unit ever indeed. Making a unit more boring than Colossi is quite the feat. I wonder why blizz didn't try to rework it into something interesting, they are always so eager to delete stuff from the game instead of trying to balance it, lazy balancing team.
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