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I really don't like massing spell casters :'(
But at least a massive ghost squad looks better than 30 infestors.
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On January 08 2014 00:04 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2014 23:52 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 20:03 TheDwf wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work. Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts? On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas... That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same. Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.).
Those are two seperate issues.
The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame.
For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively.
That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
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On January 08 2014 00:15 ZenithM wrote:
I really don't like massing spell casters :'(
But at least a massive ghost squad looks better than 30 infestors.
If Terrans get to a place where they were using as many ghosts and Protoss use HTs, it would be pretty cool. Plus ghosts do really good damage to zealots.
Personally, they are so under used, I think they could use a cost reduction.
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Blizzard has always been very vague when talking about mech and this next step is no exception. Will it be the Tank? The Ghost? Air? LAN? We don't know.
It's difficult to give suggestions when you can't really tell the direction the devs. want to take. Different people give different suggestions because they see different problems.
I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
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Best suggestion I've heard for mech is bonus damages to shields on siege tanks so they can better deal with archons and zealots! would leave tvt and tvz untouched as well.
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Archons have 350 shields and do not take bonus damage from Tanks, meaning it takes around 10 shots to deplete the shields. Immortals will have their shields depleted by one EMP, but you still need that EMP and Immortals don't cluster up all that much.
The energy change doesn't help much in this, I'd rather see Archons take full damage from Tanks and Immortals taking more than 10 damage from Thors and Tanks.
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Yea thats the HUGE problem with them their cost efficiency is in the gutter because they first saw how good they were Nerfed the cost then they said oh well lets nerf them in Radius of EMP then they Nerfed the Snipe damage and now they cost way to much for what they are.... Its a Slow building unit that doesn't give you the efficiency to cost ratio that you need to even justify making them.... I tried that build a couple times and it really came down to the fact that you effectively can only use 5 max anything past that is gimmicky and you have to snipe obs which is a crap shoot by everyone except taeja which i'm sure he doesn't really like hahahaha They just take forever to build and cost 200-100 you just give toss to much time to remass if you wind up in a situation where you have 5-6 ghosts left over from a major battle lol
This is why Polt's style was so freaking crazy good when it first came out and he has honed it even more I would love to see him start playing PL again under a US team if PL would ever allow it ahahaha
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On January 08 2014 00:24 manniefresh wrote:
Best suggestion I've heard for mech is bonus damages to shields on siege tanks so they can better deal with archons and zealots! would leave tvt and tvz untouched as well.
It also means they would do bonus damage to stalker, sentries, probes and every other Protoss unit. You are basically saying they should kill Protoss better.
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On January 08 2014 00:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 00:04 TheDwf wrote:On January 07 2014 23:52 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 20:03 TheDwf wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work. Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts? On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas... That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same. Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.). Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
What count would that be tho? I suppose you need about slightly over ten (taking into account Feedback and the fact radius is tiny vs Archon/Immortal and archons take 3/4 EMPS (preferance)? Thats 1K+gas gone right there. You need vikings/Ravens vs Aerial threats, and somehow, you end up with having about 50-75% of your 'mech army' in being support units for the siege tanks, which feel more like dead weight than anything if you acchieve this.
THe problem with 'mech':
- It cannot hold position, it is currently just a mass spellcaster deathball (akin to Broodlord/Infestor).
- It doesn't pose an offensive threat (A) making harassment impossible, B) making games really boring and stretched out, C) forces a gas heavy transition into said spellcaster deathball, which is what we shouldn't aim for!)
So what mech actually is: a fragile stepping stone to a really powerful endgame army, but with loads of weaknesses it doesn't make up for except for allowing said transition.
And if you reach the lategame army of choice -> grats, you can now fight on relatively even footing with Protoss, maybe you are slightly stronger, but good luck with the remax when you don't have all your energy back yet.
'mech' is weak. The lategame transition is pretty strong, but the mech people want to see (positional, choke-style, + Show Spoiler [SKTelecom Proleague KTvKHAN] +which is showcased perfectly at KT Ty v GalaxyKHAN Reality (which is really exciting and a great game, so I decided to spoiler the summary) + Show Spoiler [Summary] +Ty goes mech, Reality goes biomech. The game ends in 20 minutes of small skirmishes of low tank counts + hellbat counts vs biomech. Ty attacks Reality on multiple fronts and closes him in, once the game devolves into madness, you see what the Tanks can do and cannot do, a great display of how to abuse mech and how to defend with mech, all the while there is action all over the map on at least two fronts, most of the time. THIS is what we mean with positional strenght - being capable of holding a front without dedicating at least 80% of the supply your opponent dedicates.
vs Protoss because pretty much everything Protoss handles siege tanks well in some way, Protoss is actually superbly mobile and Warp in punishes any moveout HARD.
vs Zerg because the deathball either hits a pre-hive timing if Hellion Banshee did enough damage OR is forced to turtle on 4 bases for a RavenVikingSiegeTank composition, which takes forever.
TLDR: Mech has no aggressive capabilities outside of TvT, harassment is easily nullified because there is no threat of a large move-out, People want positional mech with the strenght to attack at any timing, without the need for the skyterran transition which takes 10 minutes -> all contributes to less stale MechvX games.
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I hope for a more focused assessment in a next update. And a Tank buff.
For the love of god no more tank buffs LOL I like the idea of Mech being viable but not at the cost of erasing Bio then we will be in the same venue we were before having a pidgeonholed match up on top of Destroying our now TvT instead of giving more options.......
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On January 08 2014 00:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 00:04 TheDwf wrote:On January 07 2014 23:52 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 20:03 TheDwf wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work. Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts? On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas... That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same. Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.). Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that.
I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech".
The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this:
- Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10;
- Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units;
- Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
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I would like a buff to the tank that is actually hard to use to its fullest potential. Like, not something which buffs turboturtlenoobs.
QUICKLY, INCREASE ITS MOVEMENT SPEED!
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On January 08 2014 00:37 ZenithM wrote:
I would like a buff to the tank that is actually hard to use to its fullest potential. Like, not something which buffs turboturtlenoobs.
QUICKLY, INCREASE ITS MOVEMENT SPEED!
Incoming slide stutter step with auto-shot, Phoenix style.
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Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope.
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On January 08 2014 00:31 Pirfiktshon wrote:For the love of god no more tank buffs LOL I like the idea of Mech being viable but not at the cost of erasing Bio then we will be in the same venue we were before having a pidgeonholed match up on top of Destroying our now TvT instead of giving more options.......
A Tank buff will not kill bio don't worry. Best Terran in the World, Taeja is a bio player. There is plenty of room to buff tanks without completely turning TvT in to a mech only MU (though as far as i'm concern if you loose diversity in one MU but gain diversity in two, then it's a step forward).
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On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote:
Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope.
That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D
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On January 08 2014 00:37 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 00:16 Big J wrote:On January 08 2014 00:04 TheDwf wrote:On January 07 2014 23:52 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 20:03 TheDwf wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Of course it is. If mech needs so badly Ghost or Raven support, then something is wrong. The fact you cannot spend your gas however you want is not a problem per se, but the style should not have to rely on massing spellcaster energy to vaguely work. Why is there something wrong if you have to build certain units? You have to build certain units in all RTS games in all situations, so why is it wrong if those certain units are Ravens and Ghosts? On January 07 2014 20:29 matthy wrote:On January 07 2014 17:42 Big J wrote:On January 07 2014 17:06 maartendq wrote:On January 07 2014 15:34 cptjibberjabber wrote:On January 07 2014 08:43 Soldier92 wrote:
I like the attitude blizzard has coming with these balance changes but the solutions they present to mech are not the right way to go.
Buffing mech air does not make sense as skyterran is already considered one of if not the strongest lategame armies. Each terran starport unit excluding the BC has a number of roles for both harassment as well as benefit to the main army.
Siege tanks already do decent damage to armored. This change will not affect immortals, the strongest siege tank counter. This change will not affect archons, another hardcounter to tanks. This will only help in tvp for blink stalker allins, lategame protoss vs mech terran rarely relies on stalkers or collosus for a lategame composition.
EMP is a ghost ability. The ghost is a bio unit built from the barracks. If the solution to mech becomes a ghost buff I will be very disappointed in blizzards lack of conviction to make mech work.
It's nice to finally have a word on tvp though, the matchup hasn't been talked about publicly in a long time as far as I know other than the fact that it remained around 50%. The MSC change was much needed good to see happen. why would you be dissappointed? I think when you say "mech" you shouldn't rule out half of your tech tree. Mostly you do, because of upgrades. But you don't want ghosts for their DPS anyway, so I don't see why it is bad to use ghosts in a mech composition? Because mech players would rather spend gas producing mech units than ghosts, I guess.. yeah sorry, that's not an argument. Zergs would also rather spend their gas on mutalisks than on banelings... Yeah but for a terran there is just not enough gas... That's the whole point of buffing them... that you need less resources to achieve the same. Because then you end up having those "Ghosts/Hellbats/Tanks/Thors/Vikings/Ravens" armies which make no sense (since the support spellcasters have actually the most important role, a bit like the WoL infest; this also means you cannot be active before the said army is complete) instead of having a simple core like Hellbats/Tanks/Vikings in TvT that you can then support with only a few of those units (like one Raven to have 2 pdds, not 15 full energy because otherwise you cannot advance/fight, etc.). Those are two seperate issues. The one is that some energy units tend to overperform in the late-/endgame. For the other one, we do see pushes with ghosts, Storm timings, Viper timings, Sentry timings, etc... where you utilize few of those units. Thus I don't see why the reliance on energy units in certain scenarios would always lead to people massing them and playing passively. That's the other issue and much more tied to the specifc design/role of those units. In particular with the ghost I can't really see how you would really have to mass them so much with Mech. Once the Immortal/Archon shields are down, you are pretty happy and you don't really want more ghosts than the count to ensure that. I didn't say the spellcasters would systematically be massed. You go only for a few Ghosts along mech, yet those 6-8 ones are still critical because without the EMPs, your army gets slaughtered. But building that Ghost/mech army takes a long time, you cannot have much midgame activity, so Protoss can transition to air, and then you have to add Vikings/Ravens, and finally we have this weird mix of an army in which the Tank has so little role left it cannot seriously be called "mech". The best thing is simply to make it so mech in TvP can operate without the Ghost until some point, just like mech in TvZ can work without Ravens until some point, instead of forcing the Ghost into mech and promote turtly play. I would test this: - Rework Hardened Shields so attacks dealing more than 20 damage are halved instead of reduced to 10; - Tanks in Siege Mode have a +15 bonus damage against Massive units; - Blinding Cloud reduces the range of units under its effect by 6.
And you know, all these idea's have been spoken out so often, but aren't heared.
What rework Hardened Shields does:
Archons, Immortals deal slightly more damage,
Ultralisk, Broodlords deal slightly more damage,
Siege tanks, Thors deal considerably more damage, Marauders deal slightly more damage (talking 1 damage/upgrade, so 13 instead of 10 at 3/3)
Agains all of these units, if the Immortal is taking damage, often you have already lost the fight (PvP, Immortals are the last units in Archon vs Immortal) or it works for both sides; Immortals can face Ultralisk face to face, but now lose their shields about 66% faster. Immortals aren't supposed to engage broodlords, so no biggy.
Thors/Tanks however, deal massively more damage after this patch. Siege tanks deal 25+2.5/upgrade to Immortals, cutting their shields in ~4 hits instead of 10. Thors deal about 40 damage instead of 20, also increasing the shield kill speed. Marauder effect is negligable.
This change almost exclusively affects Mech vs Protoss, in a good way. Immortals still counter Thor/Tank, but less extremely so.
Siege Tanks deal bonus damage vs Massive + Show Spoiler [assumption] +I'm assuming it stacks, if it doesn't, problems for collosi/thor/ultralisk don't occur
Ultralisk die slightly faster, taking 65(+5) damage instead of 50(+5). Same goes for collosi both probably die in 2/1 hit faster respectively). This might pose a problem verse the Ultralisk, but MechvZ is underdeveloped and might require patching for the Zerg to deal with Skyterran transitions better on certain maps. The only other candidates are Thor and Archon. Thors shouldn't engage Tank lines, just sole tanks, but Archons. Archons suddenly take almost 50% more damage! Going from 35 to 50 damage.
Blinding Cloud reduces range of units by 6 istead of by infinite:
Unith with over 6 range:
Collosi (go from 9 > 3)
Thor v ground (from 7 to 1, slightly longer than melee, negligable)
Thor v air (from 9 to 3/10 to 4)
Siege Tank (from 13 to 7).
Another change which affects probably only the Siege Tank.
These are clear changes with very few disadvantages, which all of a sudden make the siege tank a force to be reckoned with!
I am of the opinion TvZ might become problematic as Mech get's more well-developped, but it is too early to tell.
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On January 08 2014 00:46 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote:
Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope. That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D
For the better. You know we all want to see it. Think of the micro and the amazing doom drops. Think of the laughs then someone loses like 5 medivacs and tanks to stalkers.
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On January 08 2014 00:46 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote:
Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope. That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D
Are there any more basic RTS rules we could throw out the window? Blizzard already does a good job at it, but this would be a whole new level.
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On January 08 2014 00:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2014 00:46 ZenithM wrote:On January 08 2014 00:40 Plansix wrote:
Medivacs can pick up tanks while seiged, but only one at a time, Thor style. There is a tank buff we can all get behind because it's dope. That shit would be ridiculously game changing :D For the better. You know we all want to see it. Think of the micro and the amazing doom drops. Think of the laughs then someone loses like 5 medivacs and tanks to stalkers.
That's almost even better than Tanks with blink. Even the WoL campaign didn't have that. I'm all for it.
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EPT
