On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Uh, TvT didn't need any evolution, it was basically always an action-packed MU after people got past 1base banshee
On January 04 2014 16:25 fishinguy wrote: How about this for a mech buff
New Upgrade
Armory - 150/150, 120sec research
Transformation Boosters
"Reduce transformation time of mech units by 25%"
So reduce the time for tanks to siege etc
Tank from 4 to 3 seconds Hellion from 4 to 3 seconds Viking from 3 - 2.25 seconds
Transformation Servos should already do this.... its the upgrade that lets hellions go to helbats. It's been suggested several times and it seems like a good idea.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall. All the little côterie of terrans who keep writing the same post were negative about it, from snusmum to imperialfist. Avilo was pretty adamant about it, he made a long post and had an insufferable streaming session.
I really hope people don't think Avilo is a representative for Terran, he is 100% bad for the game. I think the game is well balanced right now, but tvp is frustrating. I don't think PO is too strong, it's just incredibly frustrating to play against. Oracles aren't too strong, they are just obnoxious and frustrating. Everything protoss is frustrating. Or #dirty
But Avilo gives so much ammo for the balance whiners of the terran empire. He is Idra without all the dry humor and awesome cat.
After reading his attitude in that mech thread I wish he would just disappear.
On January 04 2014 03:30 Nebuchad wrote: You can see the biggest problem with SC2 in this thread.
PO change is announced, first reaction is negative. Everyone says that's not what should be done to help PvT and it won't change shit in PvZ. So it's not helping these match-ups.
[spoiler=Poll]
Poll: Photon Overcharge Change
Thumbs Up (1175)
78%
Thumbs Down (282)
19%
Neutral (49)
3%
1506 total votes
Your vote: Photon Overcharge Change
(Vote): Thumbs Up (Vote): Thumbs Down (Vote): Neutral
mhh?
Read the thread?
Your first reaction was "meh", as I recall. All the little côterie of terrans who keep writing the same post were negative about it, from snusmum to imperialfist. Avilo was pretty adamant about it, he made a long post and had an insufferable streaming session.
I really hope people don't think Avilo is a representative for Terran, he is 100% bad for the game. I think the game is well balanced right now, but tvp is frustrating. I don't think PO is too strong, it's just incredibly frustrating to play against. Oracles aren't too strong, they are just obnoxious and frustrating. Everything protoss is frustrating. Or #dirty
But Avilo gives so much ammo for the balance whiners of the terran empire. He is Idra without all the dry humor and awesome cat.
After reading his attitude in that mech thread I wish he would just disappear.
Why would you want the Bisu of SC2 mech to disappear?
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Yeah, exactly. People, who keep saing, that PvP is coinflip matchup, just doesn't understand PvP at all. PvP is great in HotS, and it's mainly becouse PO allow us to somewhat safely expand. Without PO PvP would be just 1-base vs 1-base all the time. And i think that, if they nerf PO to 40 seconds, it will be too weak to hold an expansion in PvP. But we will see, it might not be as bad, and it definitely will add agressive options to Terrans in TvP, so it can become more diverse matchup.
On January 04 2014 16:08 Wingblade wrote: PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Generally when the matchup is very deep in terms of gameplay, it just doesn't get stale (Just like how almost all the matchups in BW were, e.g. TvP BW, where even though it was mech 99% of the time, it NEVER got stale for years). Meta will shift depending on the map but when multiple build orders that are tailored to macro, greedy, aggression, tech etc are possible along with a few BO losses, every unit has a purpose, promote less deathball play due to siege tanks, emphasize positioning, can result in bio vs bio // bio vs mech // mech vs mech // bio/tank vs bio/tank, sky terran transitions and the likes..
This matchup is the closest thing that resembles BW and why not because most of the key design features with signature units were ported over. TvZ was also once like this.. 2011/12 produced some really awesome games til hello BL/Infestor.
Its interesting to observe that both Terran and somewhat Zerg did stay true to their old roots in terms of design and hence resulted in a very exciting matchup to play and spectate as seen by numerous games of the past (with the exception of ZvZ.. although effort vs DRG on taldarim always come into mind!!). However protoss and its new design that breaks alot of traditional RTS rules is where all the problems have occurred. PvP of the old, PvT, and how volatile PvZ was. Every matchup that involved SC2 protoss created some kind of a problem that frustrated alot of people. Somewhat like mixing oil with water and hoping they'd mix well.
I think it is much better now for PvZ and PvP.. but its PvT that has not changed very much and perhaps gotten worse off in HOTS. It would be quite nice to see this matchup have a big shakeup somehow without affecting the other two matchups. I think primarily the MSC's PO (a very rough bandaid fix by Blizzard imo) is what makes PvZ and PvP somewhat less volatile in HOTS so I believe they should be looking at other things instead of straightup nerfing it to 40 sec.
In my oppinion Photon Overcharge is absolutely NOT a problem in TvP right now. Yes it makes basically impossible to 1base against Toss. BUT I think every terran could live with that. The problem is, that the MSC makes Protoss Allins on the other hand way too strong with the Timewarp ability and the nice air to ground DPS it offers. And another problem is, that there are no viable lategame options for terran. D. Kim doesn´t understand at all where the key problems in the matchups are located. I really hope he gets fired soon.
Big TvP buff. Fast expand aggression in all its forms got a good buff and drop pressure got a good buff. It really lies in that area of saving the medivac after the protoss responds, or pressuring the front wanting to come back in with units on the Nexus-Cannoned main.
I like the potential changes, I just hope by "other changes" to help mech (i.e. EMP) they would consider some sort of Ghost buff. It's been an extremely underutilized unit since being neutered, having it's snipe ability only doing added damage against spell casters.
I feel they should do something in the realm of: -Reduce price cost of the Ghost(200,100) - This would be fair, considering HTs(50,150) and Infestors(100,150) both cost less and have AoE spells that do actual damage as opposed to the AoE counter-spell, EMP. The new cost can maybe be (150,100)?
-Fix EMP to maybe add some actual damage against mech/armored units - This could help both TvP and the rise of Mech in TvT by allowing EMP to deal real damage to only armored and mechanical units, any other units in the field are unaffected. This could also help vs Blink Stalker All-ins in TvP, coupled with the reduced cost, a Terran may be able to get a Ghost or two out in time for the attack. The real damage it deals wouldn't be great, just enough to jar their insides. Something like a weak psi storm, while keeping its main essence of shield/energy killer.
-Return Snipe to its old stats, but reduced damage vs Massive, like suggested in many threads.
There are others, but these are just off the top of my head reading this now.
How about we don't make another warhound? Having to siege up tanks is a good thing. It leads to more positional play, and rewards the better player. Having tanks run around doing massive damage from 13 range with no down-side is what makes colossus such a terrible unit. Instead, we need to stop units, such as the immortal, from being able to a-move through a siege tank line.
There are two things that needs to done in order to fix mech.
1. Increase Tempest supply cost from 4 to 6. Tempest should be used to force engagement and pick off key units, not be a hard counter to mech where you need to mass ravens/vikings and throw away all ground units in order to free up supply to match the extreme supply efficiency of Tempest.
2. Give tanks bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode, and let the bonus damage be spell damage which bypass hardened shields in the same way as widow mine damage do. I think just having +10 bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode would solve the weakness of tanks in TvP without making Tanks OP in TvT or TvZ.
A - Change the Ghost Reasoning: Ghosts have been nerfed often, their cost of 200m100g is worse than 150m150g for Bio, and it ridiculously high overall for a unit that's designed to deal with Infestor/HT only. - Snipe can use a rebuff. I'm still all for 25 Damage, +20 non Massive, +5 Psionic. Makes Snipe a useful spell again without slaughterraping T3 Zerg. Also helps a little bit with Mass zealot warp ins when you only have Ghosts in the rally to defend. - Buff movement speed - Because the 2.25 average speed of old is acvtually slow nowadaus (only mech and unstimmed bio move slower), A speed buff for the Ghost might be of use. Make them be able to retreat, so Terran can choose to disengage without losing the Ghosts for sure. - If no direct damage buff for snipe (FYI - The reasoning for the snipe nerf was that it killed broodlord/ultralisk too fast - there's no reason for the nerf against zealots/banelings/everything else), make the animation faster so Snipes 1 range advantage over feedback gives you a 100% win vs HTs if you use 2 Ghosts, instead of risking 2 Ghosts for not killing the HT (Juke gives HT the advantage in Snipe vs Feedback). Risks in TvZ/TvT: - Terran get's a lategame transition verse Zerg, where Snipe can deal with mutalisk, Infestors, Overseers, small Baneling skirmishes or in Mech's case, Vipers and Swarmhosts better. - TvT might get some of the cool Ghost rush builds of old back ( 45 damage Snipe one shots SCVs/Marines)
B - Change the Mothership Core Reasoning: The MSC is TOO much of a catch all unit - I think this is because of its mobility and the relatively low mana cost of it's spells. Increasing Mana costs makes the Mothership Core user FORCED to decide - Commit to a more powerful attack OR have the safety net ability of the MSC - Nerf Time Warp to 100 Energy. No more Triple Time Warps in Blink Rushes or engagements, No more using Time Warp and being able to Recall/Overcharge. - Overcharge to 125 Energy: You can't overcharge 2 Nexi, there's a considerable window between 2 Overcharges (Right now, it is 60 second overcharge - 60 second overcharge - 80 second window - 60 second overcharge -> this changes to 60 second overcharge, 40 second window - 60 second overcharge - 190 second window). This forces the use of sentries in greedy play and thus slows Tech down, and overall forces more defense if Terran is aggressive. - Recall to 125 Energy: So it can't be used with Time Warp / Overcharge - makes positioning of the Mothership Core important. Also; Change Vision Range (it's currently 14, which is one of the biggest reasons Blink is so strong), and I'm in favor of changing movement speed to something slightly lower. These changes all make the spells and positioning of the MSC take more commitment and weakens Blink All Ins by forcing the use of Stalkers for vision or the taking of risks. (might be going slightly overboard, but it is worth the try).
And I like the idea of +Mechanical damage for Ghosts (+Armored makes no sense) - Makes room for buffs for Mech without thrashing TvT.
On January 04 2014 09:17 Squat wrote: The whole thread is people posting their personal opinions on balance changes over which they have zero influence. That's usually what a forum is.
I never said that my choices of best match ups were somehow objectively true. But I do contend that with the way PvP is, it cannot be used a season not to go through with this, because any dependence on PO to survive early aggression in PvP is a sign of far deeper issues that cannot be resolved in a balance patch. If even shittier PvP is the price we pay for better PvZ and specifically PvT, I am cool with that.
ok, make scan require an armory research. If you have trouble with banshees and mines, it's just a sign of deeper issues with Terran that cannot be resolved in a balance patch.
#stupidlogic
No, because that would be purposefully making the match up worse in order to create problems where there previously were none. In the case with PO, it was a giant band aid applied because of the myriad problems that were already there. It also had a deleterious effect on PvT and PvZ, which is why I consider any issues the nerf might cause in PvP a worthwhile sacrifice for a chance to improve the protoss non mirror match ups. I'm starting to suspect you are being intentionally fatuous.
The whole #stupid thing is kind of played out. If you disagree, then do so, but contrary to what you may believe, saying that everything someone who disagrees with you is saying is stupid doesn't actually make it so.
I'm blown away that you're of the opinion that PvP is bad and we should sacrifice it for other matchups. That's just lazy. Do something that makes all the matchups better. PvP is a far better matchup right now than the community gives it, spearheaded by the amount of hate it gets even in articles by writers who still talk about PvP like were in 2011 saying it's a coin flip and boring buildup. Just read the best games of 2013 for what I'm talking about. There's 3 PvP games I remember and none inside the top 30 when in fact several of them deserved much higher places on the list.
Well I'm a pragmatist, and I do not believe there is anything that can plausibly be done in a small patch that can make PvP good or at least decent. If the choice is between not nerfing something that is hurting other match ups and keeping it because it's needed due to the slightly absurd nature of PvP, I say it's gone in an instant. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and focus on what can realistically be done.
As for lazy, maybe, but after four years of feedback and essay long posts by dozens, if not hundreds of people...I think our expectations for what can actually be done need to be a little more grounded. This seems like a solution blizzard would be willing to do, and it will have to suffice. Much like everything in this game, it's about what we can do to make it suffice. Trying to fix PvP is a pipe dream.
PvP is actually a much better matchup, but shortsighted people never gave it a chance after Wings of Liberty and the joke it was back then. Meanwhile matchups like TvT that haven't evolved in forever somehow aren't stale.
Protoss : People who don't know shouldn't talk about PvP, they have been brainwashed this is an awesome match up. Protoss : TvT is stale and doesn't evolve.
Sometimes you guy are magics, you manage to contradict yourself in 2 sentences.
On January 04 2014 21:13 MockHamill wrote: There are two things that needs to done in order to fix mech.
1. Increase Tempest supply cost from 4 to 6. Tempest should be used to force engagement and pick off key units, not be a hard counter to mech where you need to mass ravens/vikings and throw away all ground units in order to free up supply to match the extreme supply efficiency of Tempest.
2. Give tanks bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode, and let the bonus damage be spell damage which bypass hardened shields in the same way as widow mine damage do. I think just having +10 bonus damage vs. shields in siege mode would solve the weakness of tanks in TvP without making Tanks OP in TvT or TvZ.
EPT
