|
On January 04 2014 07:17 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 07:14 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 06:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On January 04 2014 06:48 Faust852 wrote:On January 04 2014 06:42 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote:
I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do.
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring.
It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D).
Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster.
In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it.
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx ) Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous. I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke. When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air. Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran. Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building. You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot. His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates. This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss? This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time. Wtf are you talking about? Mech upgrades that are combined in theory but never come into play in actual pro level games? Trying to reason with people as biased as you, thats the waste of time.
You guys are some kinda dense. It's a fucking theory now that terran upgrades are merged? That's news to me. I thought it was a fact. Well, if your goal is for mech to become more viable and for the tank to be buffed, then this "theory" is going to get in the way of the reality of the situation.
You're talking to someone that wants to see terran get buffed because I think you guys need to play an imbalanced race to quit whining 24/7. I don't think foreigners have shown any capability of playing bio at the level needed, so I'd love to see mech get buffed so foreigners can play on their tricycles and win some games. I'm simply telling you, if you want the tank to get buffed like I do, then this theory is going to be a hindrance and alterations will have to be made.
A big part of why this never comes into play, in the first place, is because it's impossible to battle 3-3 in the air with 1-1, tops... thus, you kinda don't see it much. Then again, that's probably hard to understand for a terran player.
And, ofc, the fact that the top terran players are Koreans and can actually win games with bio.
User was warned for this post
|
playa, breathe in, breathe out...
We care about your health mate,don't do this to yourself!
|
On January 04 2014 07:35 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 07:17 Bagi wrote:On January 04 2014 07:14 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 06:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On January 04 2014 06:48 Faust852 wrote:On January 04 2014 06:42 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 06:01 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On January 04 2014 05:34 playa wrote:On January 04 2014 05:27 SirPinky wrote:On January 04 2014 04:41 playa wrote:
[quote]
I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself.
Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly.
I completely lost you when you said, "after giving Terran free air upgrades." Surely, you can't think they are free. Any meching Terran is always at an upgrade handicap when it comes to upgrades and time. You seem to miss the point it takes 150/100 for an armory and 150/100 for a factory, plus the opportunity cost it takes to build those structures prior to even having the ability to start your upgrades. So to recap, the meching Terran is 300/200 down in resources before he/she can EVEN start an upgrade and you consider this free? Now lets see what it takes for Protoss to start upgrades...150 minerals and chrono to their hearts content. Hopefully I don't have to spell out how misleading your "free upgrades statement" is. Your air upgrades are most definitely free. If I want to go above 1-1... I have to make a structure that costs 300/200 just to gain that ability. In a natural game, by the time you are trying to switch to air... terran is already 2-2. They're making it impossible to buff the tank much with silliness like this. I could go on a biased limb and say that colossi upgrades are free too. ( but i know its retarded so its ok thx ) Cost that goes into reaching 3-3 air for toss (ignoring shields). 1650/1400. Cost for Terran to now reach 3-3 air, 150/100. Apparently we're including the cost of armory and cyber for some reason. And you can't use the argument that it's not free because you have to upgrade your ground army, when toss still has to upgrade their army just as well. "Bias" and math must not be synonymous. I don't make colossi vs mech. And, even if I did, to research thermal lance, alone, it would cost more than it would for terran to reach 3-3 air. I don't think anyone needs to explain to you that, that's a joke. It's reality, but it's a joke. When you add in that it's impossible to never be out-upgraded (until finally reaching 3-3), air vs air against terran, then it becomes clear the dilemma with making the tank strong enough that toss has to find a way to win via the air. Since no one is handing me 1650/1400 at the start of games, I'll stick to making predominately 3 units (archon, immortal, zealot) and playing the boringest and lamest games of all time. Unless people find that fun, eventually they will need to revert/change the free air upgrades for terran. Are you for real this biased ? Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as terran : 2100/2100 Sum of upgrades for 3/3 as protoss : 2100/2100 I don't count building. You are really getting ridiculous and look more and more like a total idiot. His complaint is that he cannot build 3-3 carriers without actually using cybernetics core for anything but warp gates. This is fucking astounding. The terran player that is trying to lecture pros, apparently, on p vs p, doesn't even know the costs of upgrades for mech? Your upgrades were combined. Wtf are you talking about? The price wasn't reflected in this merging of upgrades. They gave you air upgrades for free. It's no where near 2100/2100 to have fully upgraded mech. And where are you getting 2100/2100 for 3/3 air for toss? This is why explaining things to people like this is a waste of time. Wtf are you talking about? Mech upgrades that are combined in theory but never come into play in actual pro level games? Trying to reason with people as biased as you, thats the waste of time. You guys are some kinda dense. It's a fucking theory now that terran upgrades are merged? That's news to me. I thought it was a fact. Well, if your goal is for mech to become more viable and for the tank to be buffed, then this "theory" is going to get in the way of the reality of the situation. You're talking to someone that wants to see terran get buffed because I think you guys need to play an imbalanced race to quit whining 24/7. I don't think foreigners have shown any capability of playing bio at the level needed, so I'd love to see mech get buffed so foreigners can play on their tricycles and win some games. I'm simply telling you, if you want the tank to get buffed like I do, then this theory is going to be a hindrance and alterations will have to be made. A big part of why this never comes into play, in the first place, is because it's impossible to battle 3-3 in the air with 1-1, tops... thus, you kinda don't see it much. Then again, that's probably hard to understand for a terran player. And, ofc, the fact that the top terran players are Koreans and can actually win games with bio.
I'm just gonna say its fucking hilarious to see a protoss player talk down to terran foreigners wanting mech to be viable. Some people will never see the irony in their actions.
|
On January 04 2014 04:55 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:52 Ravomat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:42 Squat wrote:I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one. I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days. On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground. I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go. Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged.
No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups
|
On January 04 2014 07:58 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 04:55 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:52 Ravomat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:42 Squat wrote:I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one. I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days. On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground. I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go. Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged. No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups
PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference.
And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken.
|
How about EMP to 50 energy?
EMP was 75 energy for Big Radius + All shields/energy
Then it was 75 energy for Big Radius + 100/100
Then it was 75 energy for Small Radius + 100/100
As a mech player, ghosts are a huge investment for a small reward.
Making EMP 50 energy would move its power level back up a tier without making each cast stronger.
|
On January 04 2014 08:05 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 07:58 Wingblade wrote:On January 04 2014 04:55 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:52 Ravomat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:42 Squat wrote:I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one. I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days. On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground. I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go. Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged. No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference. And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken.
Yes, PvZ is perfectly fine. Recent winrates even suggest that Zerg has a slight edge, but that aside, what problem do you have in PvZ? If you want to allin in PvZ against a gateway expand, 15h16g15p @100 gas start speed, start 2queens, rally zerglings for eternity. If the opponent only relies on MsC he dies 100%, he needs a superfast wall @the natural and a sentry as well, since he is dead before he even has the energy to overcharge if he only relies on MsC and some zealot+stalker combo. Other allins? try 3hatch speedroach busts, example would be Hydra vs whoever from proleague (just the first attack). Or double hydra den rushes if he goes stargate and wants to take a third. Lots of options for zerg, you just have to be willing to learn them.
|
On January 04 2014 08:05 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 07:58 Wingblade wrote:On January 04 2014 04:55 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:52 Ravomat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:42 Squat wrote:I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one. I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days. On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground. I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go. Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged. No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference. And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken.
So, all things Protoss are "a pile of shit"? Ahhh, gotcha. Thanks.
|
On January 04 2014 08:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:05 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 07:58 Wingblade wrote:On January 04 2014 04:55 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:52 Ravomat wrote:On January 04 2014 04:42 Squat wrote:I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe?
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything.
You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one. I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days. On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground. I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go. Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged. No it didn't work for years in WoL. Protoss was far and away the worst race throughout the entirety of WoL. There's no reason to destroy gateway expands in PvZ right now. They need to buff something in Terran to let them do aggression early game not nerf Protoss stuff that will harm two perfectly fine matchups PvZ perfectly fine? Yeah ok. And MSC is still borderline OP with this change, it will just make is slightly harder to hold off every conceivable aggression with one click. If you think this will ruin PvP and PvZ and make them any worse than the pile of shit they are right now, I really don't think twenty seconds will make much of a difference. And you greatly exaggerate how badly protoss fared in WoL. It's a much needed fix for a unit that is verging on broken. Yes, PvZ is perfectly fine. Recent winrates even suggest that Zerg has a slight edge, but that aside, what problem do you have in PvZ? If you want to allin in PvZ against a gateway expand, 15h16g15p @100 gas start speed, start 2queens, rally zerglings for eternity. If the opponent only relies on MsC he dies 100%, he needs a superfast wall @the natural and a sentry as well, since he is dead before he even has the energy to overcharge if he only relies on MsC and some zealot+stalker combo. Other allins? try 3hatch speedroach busts, example would be Hydra vs whoever from proleague (just the first attack). Or double hydra den rushes if he goes stargate and wants to take a third. Lots of options for zerg, you just have to be willing to learn them.
I am sure it's reasonably ok balance wise, it's the gameplay that's nauseating.
I usually just do 2 base nydus or 1 base macro hatch nydus with roaches vs protoss these days. It stops forge FE, DTs and cannon rushes pretty much stone dead, which is basically all you see around low-mid diamond. Also it's hilarious.
So, all things Protoss are "a pile of shit"? Ahhh, gotcha. Thanks.
Design wise, yeah more or less. This is not the fault of any protoss player nor anything they can hope to change. It's just bad design from blizz. There have been some pretty strong objections from quite a few people to how the race plays since WoL beta.
|
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
|
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
|
On January 04 2014 08:57 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_- Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better.
#stupidarguments
|
On January 04 2014 08:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:57 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_- Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ. TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better. #stupidarguments
How is it a stupid argument? TvT has always had the most viable strategies and units in any matchup, mirror or non-mirror. It's also the matchup that emphasizes positioning and has real defender's advantage. It's the best matchup from a gameplay perspective.
|
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
I really want to do a count of the number of times design is used in the thread. It is the buzz word of SC2. Don't have anything interesting to say, say the words protoss and design a bunch of times and it will sound good.
On January 04 2014 09:01 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:58 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 08:57 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_- Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ. TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better. #stupidarguments How is it a stupid argument? TvT has always had the most viable strategies and units in any matchup, mirror or non-mirror. It's also the matchup that emphasizes positioning and has real defender's advantage. It's the best matchup from a gameplay perspective.
Argueing what match up people think is the best is like arguing about taste in beer. Sure, you can get all scientific on what is the best beer, but that's a fucking stupid discussion. Just drink what you like.
|
On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_-
yes? protoss has the most abysmally-designed units. pretty much all they have that rewards micro is phoenix play (which non-protoss players love to watch) and blink play (which transitions into deathballs anyway). presuming protoss macros correctly and doesn't fail to scout a timing, the other races have to dance their armies around like lunatics to even be able to engage a protoss army that's standing still, or use gimmicks like mass muta switch. none of this requires that i think protoss is "OP," since beating them is certainly possible and viable, but the most reliable ways of doing so involve either outfoxing their tech timings or just avoiding the army altogether (drops, muta play, etc). so yes, i think having a race in an RTS that has an inherent advantage in any "straight up" fight or any game where both players are defensive is really really shitty design. i'm not asking for buffs to zerg to make it easier for me to beat protoss; but i would love changes to the game that make the matchup more dynamic, interesting and fun as a player, especially since i play the only race that's automatically all-in if it plays aggressively off less than three bases
|
On January 04 2014 09:01 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:58 Big J wrote:On January 04 2014 08:57 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_- Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ. TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better. #stupidarguments How is it a stupid argument? TvT has always had the most viable strategies and units in any matchup, mirror or non-mirror. It's also the matchup that emphasizes positioning and has real defender's advantage. It's the best matchup from a gameplay perspective.
It's stupid because it's personal taste.
You can say TvT has a lot of strategies, you can also observe that tons of the TvTs end with a 1 or early 2base play.
I'm a huge fan of strategic diversity, but I much prefer it when gameplay is kind of forced into macrogames, like in TvZ. personal taste, but series like Maru vs INnoVation bug me out, yet, such games are not rare in TvT.
For your defenders advantage, that is true for as long as it is you that has the sieged tanks in your base. Doomdrop with speedivacs and its insta-gg because suddenly you have an attacker that controls your defensive chokes.
And I don't want to say TvT is bad or something, just making clear why it is not as golden as your phrases make it sound and why my personal taste prefers ZvT.
|
On January 04 2014 08:57 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_- Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ.
Good match-ups are a matter of preference though. I don't think you can objectively state that one is better than the other.
As to my point regarding design, faulting Protoss design in its interactions with Zerg and Terran treat Protoss in isolation when actually it is a two way thing. Briefly, why is Protoss so dependent on AOE splash after about 9/10 minutes against T? It's because then that Terran production ramps up and stim and medivacs come into play. The Marauder destroys Stalkers and mass Marines have huge DPS. Zealots are the key basic unit but are melee units so are taking hits coming in and going out and can be kited. Charge is required otherwise, after a point, they are wasted minerals. Hence the reliance on AOE splash.
Why is the Sentry and FF so crucial against Zerg? Because of Zerg's production capabilities. This is a race that can max by 12 minutes. There is no way a Protoss holds those numbers (or takes a third on a good map) without FF and specific counters.
It's all inter-connected, IMO. But, no, it's all the fault of Protoss. Anyway, I'm tired of talking about this. Time to ladder.
(For me, most important, is that once the MSC/PO is nerfed/tweaked, I hope Blizzard leaves the game the fuck alone.)
|
On January 04 2014 08:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:57 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_- Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ. TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better. #stupidarguments
Definitely stupid arguments, and design discussion anyway. But, historically, TvT and TvZ have given us some of the very best games. HotS has screwed terran up recently, with TvZ only having a few great games (Innovation v Soulkey, Innovation v DRG, Innovation v Life). And TvT has given us some absolutely amazing games only after the hellbat nerf. But, historically, the best games of all time were probably TvZ's between MMA and DRG, but also some games with MKP against DRG. Other contenders are TvT's, such as Ryung versus Mvp on Crossfire SE.
So, whatever the point of those posts was, remember those games, rewatch them even, that's when SC2 was at its very best.
|
On January 04 2014 08:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2014 08:57 Squat wrote:On January 04 2014 08:54 aZealot wrote:
Ah yes, "bad design". Specifically bad Protoss design. That old chestnut. But, Terran and Zerg are fine. Right...
-_- Zerg is better, though a ways away from fine. Terran is really solid. There is a reason why TvT is far and way the best match up in SC2, followed by TvZ. TvT the best? Lol. PvZ and TvZ are miles better. #stupidarguments
I actually laughed out loud at the idea of PvZ being better than TvT, thank you.
TvT is just everything that is good about this game in one package, every unit has a place, constant action in multiple places, positional play(oh the glory of BW)where you can use smaller forces to fend off larger attacks, very little incentive to deathball, properly rewards mechanical superiority etc. Just a beautiful match up. It's the Mozart to the Nsync of PvZ.
This is why I don't think PvP should be a concern when making changes like this, the problems of the match up run so deeply that to resolve them we would have to remake almost all of protoss. In the current state of the game, we'll probably have to accept that some things are more or less un-salvageable to make any sort of progress. This is a good start.
|
We should totally argue about personal opinion about which match up is best and most robust.
Ready? GO!
I think PvT is the best because I like the animation that marines make when the colossi burn them and zealots slice them. PROVE ME WRONG!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
