EPTJan 2nd Balance Test Map - Page 24
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CannonsNCarriers
United States638 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster. In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything. You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. | ||
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cptjibberjabber
Netherlands87 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:33 Bagi wrote: Easiest fix to the tank would be to make them deal full damage to shields like in BW. Only units this really affects are zealots and archons. Zealots would be kinda worse but archons a lot more. This should force protoss players outplay the mech player instead of "I'll just mass immortal archon and a-move over him". ghosts? have you tried using them? | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:35 Ravomat wrote: I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe? A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything. You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. A band aid that has the ability to heal braincancer, quite useful indeed. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:09 ZenithM wrote: I would personally start with putting every spell on the MSC at 125 energy. Each of those spells are potentially game changing, so you shouldn't be able to carelessy cast 2 of them in a row. Like, wtf, blanketting the battlefield with huge timewarp zones which render units slower than thors doesn't sound very appealing. Neither does making your 2 bases impenetrable with two huge-ass cannons. Well, I'm sure it appeals to 50% of GM players, and that's probably enough for Blizzard, half the players isn't so bad. I'm against another patch. But, then I've been against all the patches since the release of HOTS (except for the Hellbat patch - and, even that, I am not sure about). I am just tired of Blizzard's incessant fiddling with the game. It is exhausting. It is also a incentive to players to just whine and complain. And god, we do that a lot. So much whine in the recent past.  Anyway, I can well see a case for two tweaks to Protoss play. One, the defensive capability of the PO. Initially I had little trouble in a reduction in duration to say 45 seconds. But, as others have pointed out this may overly affect PvP play (still finding its feet in a post Oracle patch world). If so, a reduction in the range and an increase in energy cost to 125 might be better (starting energy at 75 perhaps?). This will prevent the dual activation of PO at two Nexus. It will also mean that if a Recall is forced to a Protoss army (due to say a counter-attack in the main), then it is not as easy to defend. Finally, it may be good to alter the threat priority of the Nexus. Players will have to choose if they focus the Nexus or probes or whatever. (However, in response, I would like to see the PO scale with ground weapon upgrades. Say +2, so it remains more viable.) Secondly, tweak the offensive capability of MSC Time Warp (interestingly the spell appears to have been intended as a defensive spell. It is one more example of players making use of abilities in ways perhaps not originally intended). I don't like the spell much. I never have. Certainly, I think if it affects enemy ground units then it should affect friendly ground units too. This may be a change worth pursuing. The other is to also make it a cheap researchable ability at cybercore. I do not believe Roach changes are warranted. Blizzard should not have the primary voice in what goes on and develops in Starcraft. I don't give a damn if they think it is "cool". Enough fiddling with the game in the name of "cool". Neither do I think any more buffs to Mech are warranted (certainly not without nerfs to Bio). So, I hope only the MSC/PO nerf goes ahead. After that, I hope, Blizzard leave the damn game alone for at least 6 months. Let the players take it from there. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:20 ZenithM wrote: I would be very careful with buffing the tank. It's an interesting unit when used by the top players, but a very boring one when used by less than top players (even top foreigners). Ideally I would like the unit to have only a big offensive buff but not a big defensive one, but that's probably not easy to do. Haha, what about this: buff the damage, but nerf to the ground the attack rate (to something ridiculous like 10-20 seconds) in sieged mode, but you can get it to insta reload if you unsiege-resiege (and tweak the unsiege-siege time accordingly). Would favor fast players who take care of their units, while making huge turtling strats with multiple defensive tanks everywhere quite skill-requiring. It's really gimmicky though, but I find it more fun than what the siege tank is right now (he is useless, mostly ;D). Also: With big enough damage, with this you could see crazy shit like tank drop harass, or repositionning his tanks with medivacs to push faster. In the end, if it's just to mindlessly buff whatever damage on the tank, I'm not really up for it. I think mech does make for a horrible viewing experience (and playing). Do they really want to be reminded how much better BW was, every time someone sees a mech game? That's one thing sc 2 def doesn't having going for it. But, also, there's a problem when you think about how strong the tank was in BW. Once they reached a critical mass of tanks, you needed carriers or amazing arbiter control. After giving terran free air upgrades... if you make tanks strong, then there wouldn't really be anything toss could do. Atm, imo, you have to mainly just try to beat them on the ground, as is. It's too hard to compete with free upgrades, when you put yourself in a position to need to upgrade air, to the same extent, yourself. Thus, I'd be all for a stronger tank (I was a big fan of them in BW). I wouldn't mind seeing them strike some amount of fear in me. But, that would call for cheaper air upgrades, at the least -- not freebies. Right now, it's a compositional snooze fest. See how many archons and immortals you can make and sprinkle in some zealots. It's really lame and looks a bit silly. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote: ghosts? have you tried using them? Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
I don't understand how some of you think that Photon Overcharge is still ok at 125 energy. Have you guys forgotten why this spell was introduced? Do you realize how long it takes to accumulate that amount of energy and what can happen in that timeframe? A 125 energy photon overcharge comes too late for any kind of gateway attack, too late for a non-proxy oracle, proxy voidrays, too late for marine+widow mine pushes, and too late for speedling all ins. If this nerf was to happen, you might as well go back to sentry defenses and remove the spell entirely, because it wouldn't fulfill its purpose anymore. I'm glad none of you get to decide anything. You need to remember that the MSC is just a band aid for the mess that is Protoss. I'm surprised no one yet suggested feeding the nexus cannon with chronoboost to even start to work. Maybe then some Protoss players would reach the APM threshold to not be insulted for their relatively low APM anymore. No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one. I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days. On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:37 cptjibberjabber wrote: ghosts? have you tried using them? Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? | ||
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Ravomat
Germany422 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:42 Squat wrote: No one is disputing that protoss is a mess, we are trying to come up with something realistic. Currently the MSC is too good. It needs to be less good somehow. Nerfing PO is one way. If you want to make protoss not depend on MSC in the first place, that requires sweeping, fundamental changes that are exceedingly unlikely to occur. We are talking about repainting the house instead of building a new one. I completely agree that having toss depend on a one-click super cannon with 1500 hp for defense is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less OP in its current state. Protoss will be fine with this nerf, they are doing very well right now and honestly I think terrans will take anything they can get in TvP these days. On a side note, roaches are becoming the new bunker. Soon they will faster burrowed than when moving on the ground. I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:52 Ravomat wrote: I agree that PO currently is too good. I'm just saying that increasing the energy cost on PO is not the way to go. Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged. | ||
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ricecake
152 Posts
Buffing roach burrow speed because they just like the ability seems like a terrible idea. Siege tanks do not need buffs. The suggestions for "EMP Shells" on tanks are silly. Immortals counter tanks, same as colossi counter marines. But nobody is asking for marines to do +dmg vs armored and massive. Any ghost buff would completely break TvP in favor of the Terran. Also this is a balance test map. Nothing is final. Knowing Blizz patch 2.1 will discard all of these changes, and instead buff oracle move speed. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:55 Squat wrote: Would it be so damaging for protoss to rely more on sentries for early defense? It worked for years in WoL, and zerg early/mid game is basically unchanged. It's more against Terran than Zerg. Sentries are a gas intensive investment into which delays Protoss tech significantly. Once Terran gets Stim and/or Medivacs, Protoss needs their high tech (Colossus and/or Templar) or Protoss dies. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 04 2014 05:03 ricecake wrote: Siege tanks do not need buffs. The suggestions for "EMP Shells" on tanks are silly. Immortals counter tanks, same as colossi counter marines. But nobody is asking for marines to do +dmg vs armored and massive. That's because marines are already viable despite having a counter. This isn't rock paper scissors. All units have counters but when the counter is so strong that the unit isn't worth building in the first place, theres a problem. Or in the case of TvP a whole techpath is rendered unplayable thanks to the immortal. | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
40% toss, 20% terran There is an obvious problem, just a 20 second reduction on overcharge alone wont fix this. | ||
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cptjibberjabber
Netherlands87 Posts
On January 04 2014 04:41 Bagi wrote: Yeah ghosts are really cheap and come with infinite EMPs to counter archons, thats why we see korean terrans build them so much in the current meta. Oh shit its even worse with mech when every tank costs 125 gas. A suggestion to build ghosts on top of everything else is basically saying "play like avilo and turtle for 30mins before you attack". I'd rather have a form of mech that can attack in the midgame, not just turtle into an ultimate comp of ghosts tanks ravens and whatever bullshit you can think of. On January 04 2014 04:42 vthree wrote: Do ghost come out of your ass with 0 minerals amd 0 gas? no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 04 2014 05:12 cptjibberjabber wrote: no, ghosts aren't free. But think about your composition: your main tanker and close-range dmg dealer is hellbats, which cost only minerals. Your main support unit is the tank. On top of that you have medivacs to heal your hellbats. That composition can take on collosi without vikings, can take on storms without giving a shit and generally beat all gateway units to heaven without caring. If you really need ghosts quickly then you can even delay your medivacs to do so. Also, immortals and archons aren't free either. They require even more gas (250 per immortal and 300 per archon) than you need. On top of that you don't need more than 4-5 ghosts to be able to blanket EMP everything. I don't see why you can't beat immortal/archon without being cost-efficient. blue flame hellbats deal with quick zealot/archon reinforcements aswell. Theorycrafting, fun. Pretending to do math, even better. Can you actually point out pro games where a terran goes mech and beats a protoss convincingly? | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
On January 04 2014 05:03 ricecake wrote: Also this is a balance test map. Nothing is final. Knowing Blizz patch 2.1 will discard all of these changes, and instead buff oracle move speed. >.< That made me rofl. | ||
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