EPTAlso to the people who claim that league has nothing to do with MMR, you are sorely mistaken. In the old system MMR and league had correllation. In the new system too, but the relationship has been severely shifted. The fact that this happens after roughly 3 years of relative stability in what the players can expect as far as league placement goes, it's no wonder at all that people are upset. In the end this is a competitive game, and people care about what league they are in.
Situation Report: The SC2 Multiplayer Ladder - Page 8
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GunLove
Netherlands105 Posts
Also to the people who claim that league has nothing to do with MMR, you are sorely mistaken. In the old system MMR and league had correllation. In the new system too, but the relationship has been severely shifted. The fact that this happens after roughly 3 years of relative stability in what the players can expect as far as league placement goes, it's no wonder at all that people are upset. In the end this is a competitive game, and people care about what league they are in. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
It's very similar to their bogus "when we factor out player skill* the ladder is quite balanced" claims. Even with all of Blizzard's attempts to obfuscate ladder data, people are still able to gather enough data to see there are significant issues, whether it's league distribution, racial representation, MMR decay rates, or what have you. * The idea that one can simply "factor out" such an ambiguous variable as skill with a single magic calculation is absurd, particularly since the calculation, in Blizzard's admitted case, doesn't take into account how people win their games. When it comes to skill, it is all about how someone achieves victory. For the curious, they displayed this calculation at Blizzcon 2010. | ||
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glaresc
31 Posts
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
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kinsky
Germany368 Posts
On December 20 2013 18:58 KOtical wrote: nice blizzard really nice idea with the 2 weeks inatcivity thing... so heres my problem. my pc is broken, and i have to wait around 6 to 8 weeks for my new parts... so i guess i can find myself in silver next season... ty blizzard for forcing people to play! that seems really a good idea expecially for non pro gamers... *ironie off* Why would you have to wait that long for pc parts? | ||
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
On December 20 2013 18:58 KOtical wrote: nice blizzard really nice idea with the 2 weeks inatcivity thing... so heres my problem. my pc is broken, and i have to wait around 6 to 8 weeks for my new parts... so i guess i can find myself in silver next season... ty blizzard for forcing people to play! that seems really a good idea expecially for non pro gamers... *ironie off* I guess when you have a forced break of 2 months or more it's a good deal to be able to start in silver ~ I mean if you're good you rise quickly and otherwise it's a good way to get back into the game. Or would you rather have the same opponents after the break? I don't think so! | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
Yeah OK BLIZZARD WHATEVER YOU SAY | ||
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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
On December 20 2013 18:58 KOtical wrote: nice blizzard really nice idea with the 2 weeks inatcivity thing... so heres my problem. my pc is broken, and i have to wait around 6 to 8 weeks for my new parts... so i guess i can find myself in silver next season... ty blizzard for forcing people to play! that seems really a good idea expecially for non pro gamers... *ironie off* Why are people so obsessed with leagues? What do they mean anyway? Do you play for that league icon or because you are having fun? If this break really puts you below your real skill, 5 games will rectify that. I'd say: Relax, play the game, have fun and forget about some icons. If you are not grandmaster, nobody cares anyway! | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
On December 20 2013 23:35 testthewest wrote: Why are people so obsessed with leagues? What do they mean anyway? Do you play for that league icon or because you are having fun? If this break really puts you below your real skill, 5 games will rectify that. I'd say: Relax, play the game, have fun and forget about some icons. If you are not grandmaster, nobody cares anyway! because people do care! I want a masters icon next to my name as then id be able to release content videos and the community would accept that im not bad at the game! That icon is a symbol of improvement, of course it matters. i used to think like this, and i didnt really care but i soon found out its the only measure you have to see if ur getting better. #1 of league or go home! | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On December 19 2013 05:25 _SpiRaL_ wrote: If you come back worse after a break, your MMR will drop and your win rate will return to 50% quickly. This is the whole point of MMR. Trying to somehow massage things to "guess" what a players MMR might be after a break is a huge problem to the fundamental point of the system. I know exactly why it was implemented and just put a whole post about why that reason makes no sense and why it in fact damages the whole matchmaking system by artificially introducing a system which undermines MMR's self righting mechanism (as we have clearly seen). The MMR decay has arguably discouraged people from laddering even more than before it was implemented (certainly did for me and others I know). Their goal is not just not being met, it is doing the opposite of what they intend. I agree. In addition the MMR decay will kick in even if you are playing in other regions. Thus if I play for a while in EU but not in NA the MMR decay will lower the MMR of my NA account even though there has been no decay. This is an example of one of the problems they're introducing by trying to mess with MMR other than through simply having people play games. | ||
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Sherlock117
United States40 Posts
On December 20 2013 23:35 testthewest wrote: Why are people so obsessed with leagues? What do they mean anyway? Do you play for that league icon or because you are having fun? If this break really puts you below your real skill, 5 games will rectify that. I'd say: Relax, play the game, have fun and forget about some icons. If you are not grandmaster, nobody cares anyway! It's not that I care so much about the league, it's that people who are taking breaks are being overdemoted and the matchmaking system is a mess. It boils down to wanting the following two things:
I think many of the posts here are expressing disappointment with the failure of one or both of these aspects. Blizzard did a good job trying to fix the small issue with the first aspect for people who take breaks by introducing MMR decay, but it went overkill and is now also affecting the second aspect. The distribution of leagues is so far off whack that people who are actually improving quite a bit are stuck in the same league forever, and still randomly playing the entire spectrum from noobs to masters. I for one was a former high plat, now in silver after some time playing sparingly. That was fine at first, but now I'm playing more seriously again and know I'm improving (and playing at the same or better level I was before my break) but there is no league promotion anywhere in sight. This isn't a huge problem for me, I know I'm getting better and I can look at various benchmarks and my opponents record to see that. I'm holding my own against the former diamond players and stomping the true bronze silver players I keep getting matched up against. The problem is some people aren't as good looking through all that information and will get discouaraged with the random matchmaking and never see any signs of improvement. | ||
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GunLove
Netherlands105 Posts
I'm only able to see for myself tomorrow, but I'm kinda curious to see if there are signs of Blizzard making changes to the ladder distribution. So please post your end of season result, and your placement after your placement match of this season! | ||
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Mantaza
Germany87 Posts
There was no patch fixing this shit or im just bad at this game its frustrating me i was always able to keep up with masters and i still do for example my last 12 games were all against 1200pkt + master players but who cares i have to have a 100% winrate to get master league to bad im not jaedong  | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
Additionally, to address the misconception that the majority of players are being adjusted in this way, the data shows that less than 6% of all StarCraft II games played on Battle.net are affected by this adjustment. "To address the misconception that the majority of apples are round, the data shows that most bananas are oblong." Well done answering a different question blizzard.... sigh. | ||
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korona
1098 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11039723988?page=2#24 Only we've got a change to how the leagues are apportioned in patch 2.1. After 2.1 goes live, you'll play one match and then be adjusted. Some players may not be adjusted much. Others will get to skip up the ladder. I know we can't yet say precisely when the patch will go live. It's in a stage where we're busy with quality assurance on it, and since we never know how long that will take, we don't set firm dates for the following stages of patching. But this sort of negative rumor-mongering doesn't help anyone, and doesn't make these discussion forums a better place to commune with others. Leviathan is doing an excellent job here, and should be commended. All of those who are trying to help other players understand the game and catch up with what's going on are greatly appreciated. Interesting word of choice: "Some players may not be adjusted much. Others will get to skip up the ladder." Could this mean that it is not necessarily only offset/threshold change, but also other factors would affect how much a player is affected by the change. Of course it might be that Kaivax used simplified language and just meant that some would be promoted regarding the leagues and some would stay in their old league. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
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Dragonm_sc2
United States15 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
Yesterday I played a zerg player who was in master league for 12 seasons and finished last season of 2013 as a top 16 diamond player. And I am currently on gold/plat level. I played a lot of games and worked my way up to rank 1, then I met this guy and even though he is miles better than me I was losing 15-16 points every time I got matched against him. I started WoL from bronze and worked my way to high diamond/low master. I know how playing genuine gold player looks like. The system obviously thought he is worse than me (his MMR is probably lower) even though in reality it was a one sided stomp. And I got unlucky and played him 3x in a row, losing around 50 points in total.. All my effort from previous games washed away. So how is 12 season master vs. borderline gold/plat an equivalent of losing a few games? Who are they kidding? | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On January 08 2014 16:55 korona wrote: There is interesting Blue quote on US forums. Somebody commented: "You, like most of the community, will be disappointed when 2.1 releases and it's the same bad ladder with poor league distributions." He got response from Kaivax: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11039723988?page=2#24 Interesting word of choice: "Some players may not be adjusted much. Others will get to skip up the ladder." Could this mean that it is not necessarily only offset/threshold change, but also other factors would affect how much a player is affected by the change. Of course it might be that Kaivax used simplified language and just meant that some would be promoted regarding the leagues and some would stay in their old league. Since they will adjust the league percentages it means that people who are high bronze, silver, gold etc. will probably be moved 1 league higher but people who are low-mid level players in their respected leagues will remain where they've been. But I am not sure this will be enough. MMR decay was a bad idea in general. In WoL if you took a longer break, your MMR would reset anyway and you would have to play 5 placement matches again and slowly work your way up. You wouldn't really get stomped by players of your former skill. Now with decay they actually make it harder for both active players but also returners who can't gradually get tougher opponents but often play people of their former skill level as well because their MMR also decreased. So in reality, although it is a good idea to help people who return with some sort of MMR adjustment, right now, the system is doing it on expense of 99% of other players. As a person who stopped playing in August 2012 and only recently came back, I can safely say that I would get more encouraged to get back into the game with the old WoL system than with the Hots system. | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
On January 08 2014 21:36 Qwerty85 wrote: At its maximum value, the adjustment is small; it’s the equivalent of losing a few games. Yesterday I played a zerg player who was in master league for 12 seasons and finished last season of 2013 as a top 16 diamond player. And I am currently on gold/plat level. I played a lot of games and worked my way up to rank 1, then I met this guy and even though he is miles better than me I was losing 15-16 points every time I got matched against him. I started WoL from bronze and worked my way to high diamond/low master. I know how playing genuine gold player looks like. The system obviously thought he is worse than me (his MMR is probably lower) even though in reality it was a one sided stomp. And I got unlucky and played him 3x in a row, losing around 50 points in total.. All my effort from previous games washed away. So how is 12 season master vs. borderline gold/plat an equivalent of losing a few games? Who are they kidding? That guy down ranked himself or was playing with his unranked mmr. There is no evidence that mmr decay would ever send a player from top diamond to gold in one season. | ||
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