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On November 21 2013 05:34 iamcaustic wrote:Here's my fancy attempt at graphs, based on AM region 1v1 data from nios.kr (June 1st, 2013 vs. November 18th, 2013). Basically demonstrates the changes in percentile thresholds at this point in time compared to the middle of this year. Basically, if you got demoted this season, don't feel too bad about it. Chances are your MMR didn't actually drop significantly.
oh wow. Can you get the same info on SEA? It could be that they have more GMs than masters lately.
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On November 21 2013 03:01 Destructicon wrote:
Well, a lot of people in this thread, myself including, seem to have been demoted after long periods of inactivity. I think if you play enough games to polish off the rust then you should be able to get back to your former league, though it probably depends on the league and the length of the break.
I do believe ladder is getting a bit harder as time passes, because people do naturally get better over time if they play consistently.
The thing on my mind though, is that, players bellow Masters, may not be playing consistently enough for their skill level to improve and thus they get stuck in a sort of limbo, so in that sense I don't think the ladder is getting harder.
Atm the most likely explanation is the really aggressive MMR decay, which means that if a large number of good people go inactive for long, they could drop 1 or 2 leagues and artificially inflate the skill level of the league. Of course these players, if they are good enough and play with some measure of dedication, should be able to reach their former highest leagues eventually, which could normalize the lower leagues again.
And that means roflstomping through the league and fighting only 'bad' players that are in THAT league for a reason? They fucked up the MMR system, ofc the ladder is getting harder because people get demoted and when they come back they destroy you 'cause they're much better at the game than you ( they're in a higher league) but stuck in the same league as you....
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MMR decay explains a lot of this.
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On November 21 2013 07:09 Moonsalt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 03:01 Destructicon wrote:
Well, a lot of people in this thread, myself including, seem to have been demoted after long periods of inactivity. I think if you play enough games to polish off the rust then you should be able to get back to your former league, though it probably depends on the league and the length of the break.
I do believe ladder is getting a bit harder as time passes, because people do naturally get better over time if they play consistently.
The thing on my mind though, is that, players bellow Masters, may not be playing consistently enough for their skill level to improve and thus they get stuck in a sort of limbo, so in that sense I don't think the ladder is getting harder.
Atm the most likely explanation is the really aggressive MMR decay, which means that if a large number of good people go inactive for long, they could drop 1 or 2 leagues and artificially inflate the skill level of the league. Of course these players, if they are good enough and play with some measure of dedication, should be able to reach their former highest leagues eventually, which could normalize the lower leagues again. And that means roflstomping through the league and fighting only 'bad' players that are in THAT league for a reason? They fucked up the MMR system, ofc the ladder is getting harder because people get demoted and when they come back they destroy you 'cause they're much better at the game than you ( they're in a higher league) but stuck in the same league as you....
The problem is that on your way roflstomping yourself back into leagues way than the one you are currently in, you are also roflstomping other players who do not belong in this league, which means that they get stuck in the league longer roflstomping people who actually belong in that league. The ladder isn't actually an actual ladder, where you can just climb up and down freely without consequences. It's like a huge chaotic pile of people and you can only get up by pushing and pulling other people down.
So let's say you're a master player and you got placed in gold, well you obviously claw yourself back to the top after several games. This might take a bit longer than usual because blizzard is more conservative with promotions after they banned demotions entirely. Anyways, while you climb yourself up to masters, you might stomp people who rightfully belong in plat / diamond but who were also placed in gold because of mmr decay. However for the system it looks like one gold player beating another so it'll just say "well, that player just got beaten by a gold player, guess he belongs here after all". And so on and so on...
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On November 21 2013 07:21 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:09 Moonsalt wrote:On November 21 2013 03:01 Destructicon wrote:
Well, a lot of people in this thread, myself including, seem to have been demoted after long periods of inactivity. I think if you play enough games to polish off the rust then you should be able to get back to your former league, though it probably depends on the league and the length of the break.
I do believe ladder is getting a bit harder as time passes, because people do naturally get better over time if they play consistently.
The thing on my mind though, is that, players bellow Masters, may not be playing consistently enough for their skill level to improve and thus they get stuck in a sort of limbo, so in that sense I don't think the ladder is getting harder.
Atm the most likely explanation is the really aggressive MMR decay, which means that if a large number of good people go inactive for long, they could drop 1 or 2 leagues and artificially inflate the skill level of the league. Of course these players, if they are good enough and play with some measure of dedication, should be able to reach their former highest leagues eventually, which could normalize the lower leagues again. And that means roflstomping through the league and fighting only 'bad' players that are in THAT league for a reason? They fucked up the MMR system, ofc the ladder is getting harder because people get demoted and when they come back they destroy you 'cause they're much better at the game than you ( they're in a higher league) but stuck in the same league as you.... The problem is that on your way roflstomping yourself back into leagues way than the one you are currently in, you are also roflstomping other players who do not belong in this league, which means that they get stuck in the league longer roflstomping people who actually belong in that league. The ladder isn't actually an actual ladder, where you can just climb up and down freely without consequences. It's like a huge chaotic pile of people and you can only get up by pushing and pulling other people down. So let's say you're a master player and you got placed in gold, well you obviously claw yourself back to the top after several games. This might take a bit longer than usual because blizzard is more conservative with promotions after they banned demotions entirely. Anyways, while you climb yourself up to masters, you might stomp people who rightfully belong in plat / diamond but who were also placed in gold because of mmr decay. However for the system it looks like one gold player beating another so it'll just say "well, that player just got beaten by a gold player, guess he belongs here after all". And so on and so on...
Actually promotions seem to happen immediately when you go over next league's MMR threshold. Conservative placement only happens if you start from blank MMR (5 placement matches). For example when starting from blank MMR the 25th match is the first time you can be promoted to master league, even if your MMR got to master range a lot earlier. For most people MMR carries over the seasons and they are placed according their MMR at that moment.
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On November 21 2013 07:36 korona wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:21 JustPassingBy wrote:On November 21 2013 07:09 Moonsalt wrote:On November 21 2013 03:01 Destructicon wrote:
Well, a lot of people in this thread, myself including, seem to have been demoted after long periods of inactivity. I think if you play enough games to polish off the rust then you should be able to get back to your former league, though it probably depends on the league and the length of the break.
I do believe ladder is getting a bit harder as time passes, because people do naturally get better over time if they play consistently.
The thing on my mind though, is that, players bellow Masters, may not be playing consistently enough for their skill level to improve and thus they get stuck in a sort of limbo, so in that sense I don't think the ladder is getting harder.
Atm the most likely explanation is the really aggressive MMR decay, which means that if a large number of good people go inactive for long, they could drop 1 or 2 leagues and artificially inflate the skill level of the league. Of course these players, if they are good enough and play with some measure of dedication, should be able to reach their former highest leagues eventually, which could normalize the lower leagues again. And that means roflstomping through the league and fighting only 'bad' players that are in THAT league for a reason? They fucked up the MMR system, ofc the ladder is getting harder because people get demoted and when they come back they destroy you 'cause they're much better at the game than you ( they're in a higher league) but stuck in the same league as you.... The problem is that on your way roflstomping yourself back into leagues way than the one you are currently in, you are also roflstomping other players who do not belong in this league, which means that they get stuck in the league longer roflstomping people who actually belong in that league. The ladder isn't actually an actual ladder, where you can just climb up and down freely without consequences. It's like a huge chaotic pile of people and you can only get up by pushing and pulling other people down. So let's say you're a master player and you got placed in gold, well you obviously claw yourself back to the top after several games. This might take a bit longer than usual because blizzard is more conservative with promotions after they banned demotions entirely. Anyways, while you climb yourself up to masters, you might stomp people who rightfully belong in plat / diamond but who were also placed in gold because of mmr decay. However for the system it looks like one gold player beating another so it'll just say "well, that player just got beaten by a gold player, guess he belongs here after all". And so on and so on... Actually promotions seem to happen immediately when you go over next league's MMR threshold. Conservative placement only happens if you start from blank MMR (5 placement matches). For example when starting from blank MMR the 25th match is the first time you can be promoted to master league, even if your MMR got to master range a lot earlier. For most people MMR carries over the seasons and they are placed according their MMR at that moment.
Statements like this make me dislike MMR even more. I mean, it's nothing personal against you or anything. I just get so frustrated with the fact that hardly anyone knows how it truly works. Hidden MMR values, blank MMR, MMR decay, the list goes on and on.
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8 Posts
Yes, it is frustrating. Here's something I don't understand: On the one hand they implement a MMR Decay, which in a way "punishes" you for not playing (i'm not saying the general idea is bad). But on the other hand they have this bonus pool, which in a way seems to "reward" you for not playing. Granted, this is a very simplified view, but still.
To me it makes no sense at all. I feel the whole system was way too complex already and they tried to improve it by adding even more complexity.
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Just get rid of one (or two) league(s)
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On November 21 2013 08:15 dr.fahrenheit wrote:
Just get rid of one (or two) league(s)
The problem with this, I feel, is that at every level, there is a huge disparity between players. A mid Silver would annihilate a low Bronze. A high Masters typically beats a low Masters pretty one-sidedly...
The fewer leagues you have, the bigger the range of skill you have in each league, which is counter effective. The system is ideally trying to pit you against people of your level.
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On November 21 2013 07:21 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
MMR decay explains a lot of this.
I think so as well. Match making seems very random. Some times I'm playing gold players who do random builds, other times I'm playing barcodes with 270 APM (what's more, Blizzard APMs).
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Yeah I have been demoted from diamond 4 times now, and now I'm switching to zerg and I'm playing against gold players who used to be masters, it's a whole screwup, and not good for anyone's ego.
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I took a break at the end of the summer (was diamond) and I'm now in gold and struggling to stay in the top 8. When I check my opponent's rankings they are also previously diamond who are now gold with a few thousand games played. Either the MMR system in SC2 is insanely good at matching players or leagues are getting more bottom heavy like in WoL.
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I think you can't go more than plat on your first placement match (meaning with a new account). That's probably why.
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All I want is an ELO like rating system which just shows a number.
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Depends on how you look at it. For me, I'm still getting evenly matched opponents averaging 50/50 win ratio. I don't play a lot, don't have time to train up builds or keep up on the latest meta but as long as the matchmaking works it's just as hard now for me as it was 2 years ago. Then there is the player base, going by the league distribution and anecdotal placement of my friends, it's shrinking.
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The ladder is definitely harder than it used to be in Wings of Liberty. Back then, plat used to mean someone who had a build order and could macro decently (no micro required). In plat now, I almost always match against former diamonds and former masters. I mean it's cool to have so many skilled opponents but it's kind of unsettling how the average toss can feedback my drops right as they are coming in, hold my timings with ease, and crush my army with perfect storms while dt dropping my main.
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if blizzard just stopped pussying out and showed us the real MMR instead of those bogus leagues, then we wouldnt be in this mess. I understand the need to motivate players, but doing so by deceiving them isnt the best way of doing that.
Besides, most casuals stopped playing sc2 a long time ago, i would imagine that those remaining want to know where they stand ELO wise.
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On November 20 2013 16:59 DinoMight wrote:
Could it also be the "MMR decay" being a bit too aggressive? Someone takes a couple of weeks off and they come back 1-2 league lower, but still at like 90% of their former skill? So they just destroy everyone?
this is exactly what's going on here. blizzard screwed the ladder up ever since hots with the aggressive mmr decay, and this is what we get. people playing below their league because they weren't active enough and got demoted.
blizzard seems to think if you don't play for a season, you're automatically a newb and demotes you one or two leagues. i hope blizzard realizes this is nonsense, and adjusts the decay accordingly.
On November 21 2013 19:14 Maxhster wrote:
if blizzard just stopped pussying out and showed us the real MMR instead of those bogus leagues, then we wouldnt be in this mess. I understand the need to motivate players, but doing so by deceiving them isnt the best way of doing that.
Besides, most casuals stopped playing sc2 a long time ago, i would imagine that those remaining want to know where they stand ELO wise.
no, the problem is the aggressive decay which lowers inactive players mmr way to fast, and way too far. the game thinks you are a much worse player than you actually are, unless you're very active.
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4713 Posts
On November 21 2013 20:33 CycoDude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 16:59 DinoMight wrote:
Could it also be the "MMR decay" being a bit too aggressive? Someone takes a couple of weeks off and they come back 1-2 league lower, but still at like 90% of their former skill? So they just destroy everyone? this is exactly what's going on here. blizzard screwed the ladder up ever since hots with the aggressive mmr decay, and this is what we get. people playing below their league because they weren't active enough and got demoted. blizzard seems to think if you don't play for a season, you're automatically a newb and demotes you one or two leagues. i hope blizzard realizes this is nonsense, and adjusts the decay accordingly. Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 19:14 Maxhster wrote:
if blizzard just stopped pussying out and showed us the real MMR instead of those bogus leagues, then we wouldnt be in this mess. I understand the need to motivate players, but doing so by deceiving them isnt the best way of doing that.
Besides, most casuals stopped playing sc2 a long time ago, i would imagine that those remaining want to know where they stand ELO wise. no, the problem is the aggressive decay which lowers inactive players mmr way to fast, and way too far. the game thinks you are a much worse player than you actually are, unless you're very active.
Do we know exactly how the MMR decay works? Say, is it possible to play 5 games per day and maintain or grow your current MMR? Do you need to play more then 5 games per day and if so, how may more?
Do you need to have a set number of games played by the end of a season?
I'm asking because its quite relevant to know how much activity do you really need per day or per week to stop the decay and start seeing results again.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZaXMeoCMAEd2k3.png)
