So after 1.5ish hours of reading I'm basically seeing nothing more than: + Show Spoiler +
{ OP Person A: HOLY WTF GJ Lalush Blizzard hire him immediately!
Person B: [repeat Person A] ] Person C: These changes would completely break the balance of the game no way this should even be in etc
Person D: [Logical argument for why adding micro is good despite balance problems]
Person E: [Tells person C to read the d@m posts]
Person C: Well I mean I agree with 1/2 of them obv(turret changes etc), but the rest [insert some mumblings about banshees]
The occasional Person F: You all just go fak yourselves for your BW > SC2 arguments SC2 is different FREEDOM!
Person D.2: [Logical argument again for rebutting Person F]
OP + decem, I mean Person G: [Insert summarizing information / rebuttal trying to move discussion forward]
All Persons: Bash on David Kim to varying degrees from hate to disdain to "well he didn't have a lot of time..."
Dat guy not posting but just reading trying to find some new discussion for an amazing OP: [shakes head with the facepalm and goes back to the calc homework he was procrastinating on.]
Repeat. }
If there was a way to close the discussion but leave the OP open for people to form their own opinions about, I would love that. The more people talking about it the better for publicity, but for the purposes of discussion, there really isn't much more to discuss I feel other than misc. speculating, theorycrafting, and telling ppl to go play StarBow. + Show Spoiler +
PS: Go play StarBow! It actually is really fun, but you would have to go on EU to find a consistent game.
<--- Now reading the old Amove by Design post that I have not seen before but seems interesting.
EDIT: Fak dat calc HW T_T EDIT#2: Oh and I have laundry fml.
Still, its something Blizzard should most certainly try out, yet sounds like they're not willing.. we're not capable of doing much more than arguing or theorycrafting... I mean sure, we can make a custom map with it and all but only Blizzard has the real tools to make the changes properly and to bring it with proper balance... and people don't like playing custom maps/arcade maps like this, they'd rather just ladder..
These changes are cool and all, but I feel like micro is the smallest problem with SC2. We have major design flaws to solve before trying to do something as big as this. Lets analyze TvP, for example. * Nexus cannons + 2 or 3 protoss units stops at least 25 supply of marines and marauders in the early game. * 1 gate exp -> double forge is considered standard and totally safe. Thats at least a bit weird considering they have chronnoboost to speed up their upgrades (which are the cheapest upgrades among the three races). * Not unsual to see 60 supply of gateway units being warped-in at any place on the map in the lategame (how can anyone be ok with that?) * Oracle harass killing either 5 workers per second, or no workers if there is a single turret placed in the mineral line. * Incredibly strong build orders that can be executed with the same efficiency by anyone from GM on NA to Code S on KR. Be honest with yourself, as a zerg/terran, dont you feel dumb when playing against protoss?
Come on guys, do you think Blizzard is even trying? There is 3 years this game has been launched, and now they come up with broodwar music and team decals.
On November 11 2013 04:46 Doominator10 wrote: So after 1.5ish hours of reading I'm basically seeing nothing more than: + Show Spoiler +
{ OP Person A: HOLY WTF GJ Lalush Blizzard hire him immediately!
Person B: [repeat Person A] ] Person C: These changes would completely break the balance of the game no way this should even be in etc
Person D: [Logical argument for why adding micro is good despite balance problems]
Person E: [Tells person C to read the d@m posts]
Person C: Well I mean I agree with 1/2 of them obv(turret changes etc), but the rest [insert some mumblings about banshees]
The occasional Person F: You all just go fak yourselves for your BW > SC2 arguments SC2 is different FREEDOM!
Person D.2: [Logical argument again for rebutting Person F]
OP + decem, I mean Person G: [Insert summarizing information / rebuttal trying to move discussion forward]
All Persons: Bash on David Kim to varying degrees from hate to disdain to "well he didn't have a lot of time..."
Dat guy not posting but just reading trying to find some new discussion for an amazing OP: [shakes head with the facepalm and goes back to the calc homework he was procrastinating on.]
Repeat. }
If there was a way to close the discussion but leave the OP open for people to form their own opinions about, I would love that. The more people talking about it the better for publicity, but for the purposes of discussion, there really isn't much more to discuss I feel other than misc. speculating, theorycrafting, and telling ppl to go play StarBow. + Show Spoiler +
PS: Go play StarBow! It actually is really fun, but you would have to go on EU to find a consistent game.
<--- Now reading the old Amove by Design post that I have not seen before but seems interesting.
EDIT: Fak dat calc HW T_T EDIT#2: Oh and I have laundry fml.
Pretty much summarized the thread perfectly.
Its basically a few guys who is afraid of changes for the better while others are optimistic about it.
Are there any games where these changes in micro mechanics made significant influence in starbow? I'm interested in the mod but I think people would stop doubting if definitive in game sc2 proof was shown. (These unit test examples are great but something the impacts a game would relate to a viewer even more) I've seen some vods a while ago but things looked pretty low level and uninteresting. Great micro clips from starbow would definitely get people to switch (myself included).
As dramatic as it may sound, that guy who said that he's just wishing/waiting for David Kim to be fired is halfway-right. It's really up to those guys in that level to decide whether not to incorporate drastic fundamental changes. Other than that, I think it's kinda implicitly understood that they're not going to do much in terms of drastic changes under the current management.
I can't imagine how infuriating it must have been to read/hear David Kim's response to the video/thread. DIdn't Nazgul post something about it on Twitter as well?
David Kim.... I dont know what to say. Having a game with completely unintuitive units like a fucking tank that cant aim while moving, yeah thats what makes sense to causal viewers.
1) Where are the ideas that they are coming up with for this so called "better skill visibility". More terrible terrible damage? Look at how cool my deathball looks? Is that what visible skill has become?
2) This is a huge cop-out. There's no reason to not implement these changes, at least with the overkill bug. That won't change balance and will keep units more consistent/ microable. Even if it's not "visible to casuals", this is clearly something that will make the game better and can be easily implemented at no cost of balance.
3) There's many aspects of popular sports that are not visible to a casual fan ie. basketball - when a player performs an amazing exhibition of footwork that only a seasoned player can understand. At the end of the day the casual fans see's their team score and that is good enough for them. What makes a game fun to watch is how dynamic it is and how unpredictable outcomes can seem while also at the same time eliminating randomness. That's the role of micro and it is my opinion and the opinion of many others that by creating these newer opportunities for players to utilize the power of micro, the game will be funner to watch for spectators at every level.
I think you really should take in consideration of not just how one unit perform and how it interacts with other units.
You can show us how fast can muta magic box the thors in a normal ling baneling muta composition vs marine mine thor medivac. how much stronger a thor shot/archon/storm/fungal onto a stacked muta is. how much easier it is for mutas to get in and out.
It looks to me it is just going to make muta extremely powerful at sniping and get out, and extremely volatile due to now being way more vulnerable to thors/storm/fungal/archon, not to mention it is harder to split because you can't use mouse click to seperate them out like you would with marines.
those "awkward" pause is what allows terran to have time to set up a marine traps, more punishable for the zerg player not to just get in and snipe and get out.
I genuinely feel that the dev team are unaware of such micro and how it works. This and the Nony video explaining things like the leash distance that appeared to previously be mysteries to the dev team would speak volumes in that regard.
That said, David Kim and the boys are not idiots. It's actually incredibly impressive how balanced SC2 is given certain mechanics like warp gate, the guys know their shit when it comes to balancing things. I know I couldn't hope to design a game with such relative parity between the races.
That said, balance does not always equal fun. Especially as a Protoss player who prefers the mechanical side of the game, I really do feel quite constrained by the race, but equally I don't particularly enjoy exploiting the strengths of it.
I think you really should take in consideration of not just how one unit perform and how it interacts with other units.
You can show us how fast can muta magic box the thors in a normal ling baneling muta composition vs marine mine thor medivac. how much stronger a thor shot/archon/storm/fungal onto a stacked muta is. how much easier it is for mutas to get in and out.
It looks to me it is just going to make muta extremely powerful at sniping and get out, and extremely volatile due to now being way more vulnerable to thors/storm/fungal/archon, not to mention it is harder to split because you can't use mouse click to seperate them out like you would with marines.
those "awkward" pause is what allows terran to have time to set up a marine traps, more punishable for the zerg player not to just get in and snipe and get out.
You're focusing too much on the muta when you should pay attention to the behavior. It is inconsistent. You're saying you need that "bug" for defense when units really should be responsive and consistent so it can be used for surgical strikes. We want to see players that make something happen, so units have to do what they are told, not "randomly" glitch out when a target dies. Balance is done when you have proper behavior. Damage numbers can always be tweaked.
I think you really should take in consideration of not just how one unit perform and how it interacts with other units.
You can show us how fast can muta magic box the thors in a normal ling baneling muta composition vs marine mine thor medivac. how much stronger a thor shot/archon/storm/fungal onto a stacked muta is. how much easier it is for mutas to get in and out.
It looks to me it is just going to make muta extremely powerful at sniping and get out, and extremely volatile due to now being way more vulnerable to thors/storm/fungal/archon, not to mention it is harder to split because you can't use mouse click to seperate them out like you would with marines.
those "awkward" pause is what allows terran to have time to set up a marine traps, more punishable for the zerg player not to just get in and snipe and get out.
You're focusing too much on the muta when you should pay attention to the behavior. It is inconsistent. You're saying you need that "bug" for defense when units really should be responsive and consistent so it can be used for surgical strikes. We want to see players that make something happen, so units have to do what they are told, not "randomly" glitch out when a target dies. Balance is done when you have proper behavior. Damage numbers can always be tweaked.
Exactly. The above poster is yet again complaining about balance when the balance will be sorted out once the unit behaves more fluidly by removing these bugs or micro resistive engine flaws found in the game. Hes missing the actual point. If the mutalisks were more fluid for surgical strikes (i.e. free from the overkill bug and so forth), it would be MUCH more entertaining to see it vs a blink stalker ball because now, the zerg can outmicro your protoss opponent with pure micro alone instead of fighting against this bug and losing mutalisks everytime you engage hence the base trades.
Also a quick question.. does the overkill bug prevent from multiple mutalisk glaives from bouncing off an overkilled unit?
I think you really should take in consideration of not just how one unit perform and how it interacts with other units.
You can show us how fast can muta magic box the thors in a normal ling baneling muta composition vs marine mine thor medivac. how much stronger a thor shot/archon/storm/fungal onto a stacked muta is. how much easier it is for mutas to get in and out.
It looks to me it is just going to make muta extremely powerful at sniping and get out, and extremely volatile due to now being way more vulnerable to thors/storm/fungal/archon, not to mention it is harder to split because you can't use mouse click to seperate them out like you would with marines.
those "awkward" pause is what allows terran to have time to set up a marine traps, more punishable for the zerg player not to just get in and snipe and get out.
You're focusing too much on the muta when you should pay attention to the behavior. It is inconsistent. You're saying you need that "bug" for defense when units really should be responsive and consistent so it can be used for surgical strikes. We want to see players that make something happen, so units have to do what they are told, not "randomly" glitch out when a target dies. Balance is done when you have proper behavior. Damage numbers can always be tweaked.
Exactly. The above poster is yet again complaining about balance when the balance will be sorted out once the unit behaves more fluidly by removing these bugs or micro resistive engine flaws found in the game. Hes missing the actual point. If the mutalisks were more fluid for surgical strikes (i.e. free from the overkill bug and so forth), it would be MUCH more entertaining to see it vs a blink stalker ball because now, the zerg can outmicro your protoss opponent with pure micro alone instead of fighting against this bug and losing mutalisks everytime you engage hence the base trades.
Also a quick question.. does the overkill bug prevent from multiple mutalisk glaives from bouncing off an overkilled unit?
of cause I am talking about balance. you always need counter play in a game.
tell me how can you deal with a 10 viking moving shot clumping as a protoss who went colossus based army? vikings can now dodge storm and take less damage from stalker shots when sniping colossus/any toss air including mothershipe core.
where is the counter play? nothing. the race design lacks that kind of burst anti air unit in mid game. it lacks a unit
again using my muta example, how can a terran zone out mutas?
unless you do lazy patches like stalker now can do +10 against terran vikings, I don't see how you can fix it.
you are basically giving a race something and offers nothing to counter
On November 11 2013 07:35 ( bush wrote: These changes are cool and all, but I feel like micro is the smallest problem with SC2. We have major design flaws to solve before trying to do something as big as this. Lets analyze TvP, for example. * Nexus cannons + 2 or 3 protoss units stops at least 25 supply of marines and marauders in the early game. * 1 gate exp -> double forge is considered standard and totally safe. Thats at least a bit weird considering they have chronnoboost to speed up their upgrades (which are the cheapest upgrades among the three races). * Not unsual to see 60 supply of gateway units being warped-in at any place on the map in the lategame (how can anyone be ok with that?) * Oracle harass killing either 5 workers per second, or no workers if there is a single turret placed in the mineral line. * Incredibly strong build orders that can be executed with the same efficiency by anyone from GM on NA to Code S on KR. Be honest with yourself, as a zerg/terran, dont you feel dumb when playing against protoss?
Come on guys, do you think Blizzard is even trying? There is 3 years this game has been launched, and now they come up with broodwar music and team decals.
This is ENTIRELY exaggeration and completely untrue.
I think you really should take in consideration of not just how one unit perform and how it interacts with other units.
You can show us how fast can muta magic box the thors in a normal ling baneling muta composition vs marine mine thor medivac. how much stronger a thor shot/archon/storm/fungal onto a stacked muta is. how much easier it is for mutas to get in and out.
It looks to me it is just going to make muta extremely powerful at sniping and get out, and extremely volatile due to now being way more vulnerable to thors/storm/fungal/archon, not to mention it is harder to split because you can't use mouse click to seperate them out like you would with marines.
those "awkward" pause is what allows terran to have time to set up a marine traps, more punishable for the zerg player not to just get in and snipe and get out.
You're focusing too much on the muta when you should pay attention to the behavior. It is inconsistent. You're saying you need that "bug" for defense when units really should be responsive and consistent so it can be used for surgical strikes. We want to see players that make something happen, so units have to do what they are told, not "randomly" glitch out when a target dies. Balance is done when you have proper behavior. Damage numbers can always be tweaked.
Exactly. The above poster is yet again complaining about balance when the balance will be sorted out once the unit behaves more fluidly by removing these bugs or micro resistive engine flaws found in the game. Hes missing the actual point. If the mutalisks were more fluid for surgical strikes (i.e. free from the overkill bug and so forth), it would be MUCH more entertaining to see it vs a blink stalker ball because now, the zerg can outmicro your protoss opponent with pure micro alone instead of fighting against this bug and losing mutalisks everytime you engage hence the base trades.
Also a quick question.. does the overkill bug prevent from multiple mutalisk glaives from bouncing off an overkilled unit?
of cause I am talking about balance. you always need counter play in a game.
tell me how can you deal with a 10 viking moving shot clumping as a protoss who went colossus based army? vikings can now dodge storm and take less damage from stalker shots when sniping colossus/any toss air including mothershipe core.
where is the counter play? nothing. the race design lacks that kind of burst anti air unit in mid game. it lacks a unit
again using my muta example, how can a terran zone out mutas?
unless you do lazy patches like stalker now can do +10 against terran vikings, I don't see how you can fix it.
you are basically giving a race something and offers nothing to counter
You don't get it though you worded it right: "counter play" > "counter unit". Counter play would involve stuff like the turret-tracking or the surgical strikes especially if you're behind.
If a race lacks something Blizzard has to add it. To satisfy your need to visualize: Vikings TvP are not a problem. You can still zone them out with storms and blink. Also once Protoss decides it's go-time Terran needs to kite against the zealots while the vikings won't move at all. TvPs problems are elsewhere. Also tempests. Mutas. If muta play gets out of hand and Terran can't deal with it, then maybe they need a nerf, or Blizz introduces an upgrade for turret splash, or you use a few of your new microable vikings to pick them off while microing them towards backup. Micro is not a one-way road.
The proposed changes are not balance-related, they are based on principle. Balance comes second.
Although I really wish those problems would be fixed, lets face it, its not gonna ever happen. It MAY BE considered for SC3 or WC4, but sc2 is already shaped up.
it will stay as one of the greatest opportunities the game has missed
As a side note: I hope DK won't be game dev for any of my favourite games anymore.
On November 11 2013 15:24 saddaromma wrote: Although I really wish those problems would be fixed, lets face it, its not gonna ever happen. It MAY BE considered for SC3 or WC4, but sc2 is already shaped up.
it will stay as one of the greatest opportunities the game has missed
If (when) we believe that, we might as well jump ship and hope it happens earlier because of it.
I think you really should take in consideration of not just how one unit perform and how it interacts with other units.
You can show us how fast can muta magic box the thors in a normal ling baneling muta composition vs marine mine thor medivac. how much stronger a thor shot/archon/storm/fungal onto a stacked muta is. how much easier it is for mutas to get in and out.
It looks to me it is just going to make muta extremely powerful at sniping and get out, and extremely volatile due to now being way more vulnerable to thors/storm/fungal/archon, not to mention it is harder to split because you can't use mouse click to seperate them out like you would with marines.
those "awkward" pause is what allows terran to have time to set up a marine traps, more punishable for the zerg player not to just get in and snipe and get out.
You're focusing too much on the muta when you should pay attention to the behavior. It is inconsistent. You're saying you need that "bug" for defense when units really should be responsive and consistent so it can be used for surgical strikes. We want to see players that make something happen, so units have to do what they are told, not "randomly" glitch out when a target dies. Balance is done when you have proper behavior. Damage numbers can always be tweaked.
Exactly. The above poster is yet again complaining about balance when the balance will be sorted out once the unit behaves more fluidly by removing these bugs or micro resistive engine flaws found in the game. Hes missing the actual point. If the mutalisks were more fluid for surgical strikes (i.e. free from the overkill bug and so forth), it would be MUCH more entertaining to see it vs a blink stalker ball because now, the zerg can outmicro your protoss opponent with pure micro alone instead of fighting against this bug and losing mutalisks everytime you engage hence the base trades.
Also a quick question.. does the overkill bug prevent from multiple mutalisk glaives from bouncing off an overkilled unit?
of cause I am talking about balance. you always need counter play in a game.
tell me how can you deal with a 10 viking moving shot clumping as a protoss who went colossus based army? vikings can now dodge storm and take less damage from stalker shots when sniping colossus/any toss air including mothershipe core.
where is the counter play? nothing. the race design lacks that kind of burst anti air unit in mid game. it lacks a unit
again using my muta example, how can a terran zone out mutas?
unless you do lazy patches like stalker now can do +10 against terran vikings, I don't see how you can fix it.
you are basically giving a race something and offers nothing to counter
You are looking at it far too narrow minded. Stacked vikings? one perfect storm = vikings in trouble. Vikings are slow so moving in and out to kite still going to be somewhat hard. In a big engagement you won't have time to kite with vikings unless you want all your bio to die. Plus if this becomes an issue, the range can be nerfed in return for an upgrade that increases its range etc.. Balance can come second. Like the above poster has said, its the principle.
Mutalisks? Easy, if they are stacked liked that, 2 widow mines or 1 thor etc can literally wreak the entire flock or perhaps kill the entire flock. Obviously the movement speed buff the mutalisk got should be reverted back if they are deemed to strong or their regen. All these can be balanced.
The tools are already there to counter these plays. Once again its the principle. Its the idea to allow all races to have units that can be micro-ed to increase its efficiency by ten fold (making the units less restrictive is a good start).
EPT
