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On November 02 2013 10:32 Wombat_NI wrote:Great OP, some silly divergence in the thread. The strength (and weakness) of the video is that you don't have Lalush going BW < SC2 but is just him showcasing potentially cool unit interactions. Tbh my exodus from SC2 is more due to fatherhood and other commitments, but equally if I really enjoyed it I'd find the time. It's a bit monotonous and playing Protoss is especially annoying. I do love the race though, I am not allows to race switch  0
To be fair, the video is not very good. If the point is to implement great micro "space" in SC2, it could and should be done better. Especially if it is featuring on Reddit and may get seen by the development team. That last 20 minutes of BW is unnecessary and is, in the main, responsible for the overall shittyness of the discussion in the thread. There has been too much of BW > SC2 around here for a while now, and it's well past the point of annoyance. As I suggested earlier, if the point is to get the development team to look at the overall issue, then a Nony-esque take on the video is, IMO, the best way to go.
Once a Protoss, Wombat, always a Protoss. You may just be a Dark Templar, that's all. ;-)
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On November 02 2013 10:30 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 10:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:On November 02 2013 10:14 naastyOne wrote:
My problem is, when you make a case about how SC2 can become a better game, you do not need to add comparisons to any other game. When you say that "i could micro units like this in SC, and can not in SC2", you are making a case based on nostalgia. The point of a video is not well integrated into SC2 meta. The point doesn`t try to solve any of SC2s own flaws with death ball, on contrary, the way vikings are microed in the video, and the way autor tries to make it would only make a problem of an deathball of units worse. You do not have a BW controll group limitation. Thus, a tight ball of air units would became the ultimate deathball, since you could cram in a max supply of air units. Imagine you would have a BW-esque mutalisks. So, you`re microing 150ish supply worth stack of mutas. It would be terribly overpowered. The way SC2 air units behave largely is a responce to the fact that such stacks would be ridiculously broken under what author of a video deems as microable units. Splash damage takes care of stacked flying units. Yes, the same way Storms did deal with Muta in BW(well, they didn`t). In a battle of air units, ones with longer range/speed/splash will always win. in case of ground units splash wouldn`t be enought, as you will need a fire dencity to one-shot-kill a stack that is at maximum range from which an air unit stack can attack, and currently only thours are maybe close in case of fighting muta. "the broodwar level controll level " would ensure that a stack of air units can avoid any castble spell, as they did in BW, if you id it right. So you have ground units. That have to have AA splash, and you should be capable to cram enought AA units in attack range of a stack, to vipe it out instantly, othervise air units would just avoid that and pick you`r units apart, hence such units would make Air useless altogather. So, the author advocates for either ridiculously broken air units, or almost completely useless, and forcing a game to have a tonne of "archon-toilet style cases", where you`ll either get a great splash on enemy air stack and win,or you will not, and loose completely. Great thinking.
Hmm...I don't think this is quite right. 3 thors + medivacs and decent control can 1-shot an arbitrary number of stacked mutalisks. Haven't seen it used much but there has yet to be any necessity to develop such techniques. Similar things might be done with drilling claws widow mines and baited shots. Storm works well now if the numbers are matched to the size of the muta flock; if they don't unstack easily, that may actually make storm a more effective counter.
I don't see any grounds on which to conclude without play-testing that non ez-mode air units would be broken. In fact, it seems very likely that viable replies to each altered unit would arise and even be fun to watch....
For example..
Watching the muta player get shut down and pushed because Terran built enough turrets and finished 3/3 on his bio isn't very exciting. Watching the muta player get shut down because the Terran managed to boost-drop 3 thors just into range of the flock and obliterate it, or baited a shot and sprung a widow mine trap during the cooldown would be pretty cool...
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On November 02 2013 11:02 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:00 NightOfTheDead wrote:On November 02 2013 10:08 bo1b wrote:
It just boggles my mind that there are so many people against having more microable units. There's nothing wrong in 'fixing' bugs, dead stops and unresponsiveness. However, 'adding micro' to already solid units is equivalent of effectively "rebalancing" the game and perhaps introducing unwanted results. This is 100% my concern. Edit: Expanding on this, part of the reason why I like the turret suggestions is because it adds micro possibilities and character to units that are currently pretty bland on the micro front. I'm all for making currently unexciting units more exciting/usable in skilled hands, and I don't think that would break the game. I just don't think units that already have high utility and micro-ability need to be pushed any further in that direction.
I share your concern. If changes overturn SC2 then I would be against it. But, there is little wrong in adding elements that may improve gameplay and testing them out in a beta environment. The point is to add more tools to the already beautiful tool kit that is Starcraft 2. If these can be incorporated without adverse effect on the game they can be pursued further. If not, they can be tweaked or abandoned. The SC2 design team is a good one (and quite under-rated). I'd be happy with their call.
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On November 02 2013 10:22 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Micro is the flashiest part of the game. And I think SC2 has a real opportunity to be that type of game, on steroids. With powerful macro control built in to the UI, I think players could spend more time on micro. The "fun stuff" that Blizzard wants to emphasize.
I agree so much with this post.
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On November 02 2013 11:23 Rainling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 10:22 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Micro is the flashiest part of the game. And I think SC2 has a real opportunity to be that type of game, on steroids. With powerful macro control built in to the UI, I think players could spend more time on micro. The "fun stuff" that Blizzard wants to emphasize. I agree so much with this post.
Unfortunately the game is so anti micro at this point.
I really hope Blizz is rethinking that for LotV.
Even some of our most amazing micro in SC2 doesn't have much counter play or agency for the person being microed vs vs. That micro of course being marine marauder splits.
I really dislike charge, it is the definition of anti micro. You get a free hit every single time charge cooldown has expired. Let me control my units please. Of course that has a lot to do with the fundamental way blizzard built their melee units compared to BW.
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On November 02 2013 11:23 Rainling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 10:22 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Micro is the flashiest part of the game. And I think SC2 has a real opportunity to be that type of game, on steroids. With powerful macro control built in to the UI, I think players could spend more time on micro. The "fun stuff" that Blizzard wants to emphasize. I agree so much with this post.
seriously. I've always been of the opinion the the simplified UI would ultimately give players more apm to micro with, however micro is being severely limited because of the reasons demonstrated in the OP. These are simple changes that would greatly improve the game.
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Expecting another one of those "omg, why isn't everything like in BW" (not really, since I know Lalush does better than this, but still... it's what you start to expect in general on this forum these days) I was pleasantly surprised by the first 18mins of that video.
Some of the details should be more fleshed out than "every air unit should behave like X" (why? - some should, and some would be fine without) or wether we need/want gliding ground units. But apart from those tiny discrepancies, I can completely agree with the content. Units should be maximum responsive and reliable. Animations for the sake of "realism" or whichever reason belong in Singleplayer games and movies. Not in esports.
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On November 02 2013 11:32 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:23 Rainling wrote:On November 02 2013 10:22 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Micro is the flashiest part of the game. And I think SC2 has a real opportunity to be that type of game, on steroids. With powerful macro control built in to the UI, I think players could spend more time on micro. The "fun stuff" that Blizzard wants to emphasize. I agree so much with this post. Unfortunately the game is so anti micro at this point. I really hope Blizz is rethinking that for LotV. Even some of our most amazing micro in SC2 doesn't have much counter play or agency for the person being microed vs vs. That micro of course being marine marauder splits. I really dislike charge, it is the definition of anti micro. You get a free hit every single time charge cooldown has expired. Let me control my units please. Of course that has a lot to do with the fundamental way blizzard built their melee units compared to BW.
Dunno about last part. Zealots didn't have free hit some time in SC2 history, it was added to counterbalance the effectiveness of terran kiting in mid game where it could snowball pretty fast.
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On November 01 2013 20:40 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2013 20:38 Rabiator wrote:On November 01 2013 20:35 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 01 2013 20:34 Rabiator wrote:On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote:
If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful.
If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful.
Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do. Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ... You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S? Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem? As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
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On November 02 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2013 20:40 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 01 2013 20:38 Rabiator wrote:On November 01 2013 20:35 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 01 2013 20:34 Rabiator wrote:On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote:
If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful.
If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful.
Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do. Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ... You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S? Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem? As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again? Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots. Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
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On November 02 2013 12:06 NightOfTheDead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 11:32 decemberscalm wrote:On November 02 2013 11:23 Rainling wrote:On November 02 2013 10:22 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Micro is the flashiest part of the game. And I think SC2 has a real opportunity to be that type of game, on steroids. With powerful macro control built in to the UI, I think players could spend more time on micro. The "fun stuff" that Blizzard wants to emphasize. I agree so much with this post. Unfortunately the game is so anti micro at this point. I really hope Blizz is rethinking that for LotV. Even some of our most amazing micro in SC2 doesn't have much counter play or agency for the person being microed vs vs. That micro of course being marine marauder splits. I really dislike charge, it is the definition of anti micro. You get a free hit every single time charge cooldown has expired. Let me control my units please. Of course that has a lot to do with the fundamental way blizzard built their melee units compared to BW. Dunno about last part. Zealots didn't have free hit some time in SC2 history, it was added to counterbalance the effectiveness of terran kiting in mid game where it could snowball pretty fast.
Yep. As I said, it ties in with the fundamental way blizz built their melee units.
For sc2, all melee units hit upon contact (they have a large range slop which means you can't run away, the attack will hit regardless of how far you move).
In BW, even a speed zealot won't hit a slow hydralisk if he is constantly running directly away.
Instead you had to micro to kill retreating units.
You had to micro to deny that probe scout with your speedling.
Consider the hydralisk vs zealot in BW. Hydra was baaarely slower than the zealot, BUT, if it was currently running away it would not get hit. So you were able to do some pretty nifty micro, and the zealot could also micro vs this and try to manually get surrounds or partial surrounds.
How ranged vs melee in SC2 generally works is as follows:
If the melee unit is faster, it hits, constantly, while chasing the ranged.
If the ranged unit is faster, it just kites, and keeps kiting. Hence the necessity of something like charge.
The range micro here is as simple as just stutter stepping. Run, attack move/stop command/hold position, run repeat. Not too dynamic. Its either running away or towards for your opponent with your entire group of units.
And the melee? They have literally no recourse, no control possible against this. Oh wait, we dooooo have a charge cooldown.
It ties in my general thoughts towards the game, there is almost no room for micro.
If anything, the straight to 200/200 high tech fights is a bit of reprieve because then there is enough unit variety and spells being brought that you do have better displays of micro. Sure, most of it is in the form of spell poking, but is there.
Plenty of people are critical of some of the problematic spell designs like force field because it is anti micro.
It digs even deeper than that in how units are actually built.
edit: Just to be sure you know, I'm not advocating we go back to how exactly units are designed in BW, but I do wish blizz would redesign units to make room for more micro in battles to determine common fights for LotV.
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Micro is what really makes Starcraft exciting to watch. The nerd chill moments are nearly almost always micro. Yea, the guy putting down the turret just in time for the DT's he didn't scout is amazing, but it's just not the same. It's the in the moment micro, the demonstrations of a players mechanics and control, that really makes people stand up and get excited.
It's most certainly true that we already have that kind of micro in the game. The point is, we can amplify it, make it bigger and more exciting. SC2 isn't going to be a big e-sport by being mediocre, it has to excel at its niche. It's easy to say, "It's already the best of its kind", but we shouldn't be comparing SC2 to any other game, not even BW. We should be comparing it to the possibilities. If we see a way to make it better, to really make it excel even more, we should jump at the opportunity.
I we a conservative dull game, we can't be conservative and dull in our view towards changes.
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I loved every minute of this.
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On November 02 2013 11:16 lodro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 10:30 naastyOne wrote:On November 02 2013 10:17 A3iL3r0n wrote:On November 02 2013 10:14 naastyOne wrote:
My problem is, when you make a case about how SC2 can become a better game, you do not need to add comparisons to any other game. When you say that "i could micro units like this in SC, and can not in SC2", you are making a case based on nostalgia. The point of a video is not well integrated into SC2 meta. The point doesn`t try to solve any of SC2s own flaws with death ball, on contrary, the way vikings are microed in the video, and the way autor tries to make it would only make a problem of an deathball of units worse. You do not have a BW controll group limitation. Thus, a tight ball of air units would became the ultimate deathball, since you could cram in a max supply of air units. Imagine you would have a BW-esque mutalisks. So, you`re microing 150ish supply worth stack of mutas. It would be terribly overpowered. The way SC2 air units behave largely is a responce to the fact that such stacks would be ridiculously broken under what author of a video deems as microable units. Splash damage takes care of stacked flying units. Yes, the same way Storms did deal with Muta in BW(well, they didn`t). In a battle of air units, ones with longer range/speed/splash will always win. in case of ground units splash wouldn`t be enought, as you will need a fire dencity to one-shot-kill a stack that is at maximum range from which an air unit stack can attack, and currently only thours are maybe close in case of fighting muta. "the broodwar level controll level " would ensure that a stack of air units can avoid any castble spell, as they did in BW, if you id it right. So you have ground units. That have to have AA splash, and you should be capable to cram enought AA units in attack range of a stack, to vipe it out instantly, othervise air units would just avoid that and pick you`r units apart, hence such units would make Air useless altogather. So, the author advocates for either ridiculously broken air units, or almost completely useless, and forcing a game to have a tonne of "archon-toilet style cases", where you`ll either get a great splash on enemy air stack and win,or you will not, and loose completely. Great thinking. Hmm...I don't think this is quite right. 3 thors + medivacs and decent control can 1-shot an arbitrary number of stacked mutalisks. Haven't seen it used much but there has yet to be any necessity to develop such techniques. Similar things might be done with drilling claws widow mines and baited shots. Storm works well now if the numbers are matched to the size of the muta flock; if they don't unstack easily, that may actually make storm a more effective counter. I don't see any grounds on which to conclude without play-testing that non ez-mode air units would be broken. In fact, it seems very likely that viable replies to each altered unit would arise and even be fun to watch.... For example.. Watching the muta player get shut down and pushed because Terran built enough turrets and finished 3/3 on his bio isn't very exciting. Watching the muta player get shut down because the Terran managed to boost-drop 3 thors just into range of the flock and obliterate it, or baited a shot and sprung a widow mine trap during the cooldown would be pretty cool...
First of all, boosted medivac thor drops have been theorycrafted alot, but I still have never seen it in practise, so for me it isn't realistic.
Second, we must have a different definition of cool. Yeah if we have now a close game between Innovation and Hyun, and Innovation in the end when he is losing manages to pull of such a stunt to obliterate the muta flock that is awesome. When he does it a second time it is cool. When every single game depends on it if the zerg makes an error and manages to get his muta flock one-shotted by AOE weapons it is the opposite of cool, it is extremely boring.
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I don't see why so many people are assuming that Blizzard won't look at this and make changes.
They took notice of Nony's carrier video, and even if they didn't fix it exactly, they still improved it.
And they fixed fungal growth! They made it a projectile that was dodgeable and that one change improved micro in games tremendously. That was a huge change that had potentially unbalancing effects, and they did it anyway and it made SC2 a better game.
Blizzard does listen and can make changes. The community just has to make a really good argument.
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Video is really informative here is hoping blizzard actually listen to lalush advice and take restructure the whole aspect of micro in sc2 and probably then we could have better games in sc2 .
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Thanks for revealing this to us in-depth. Was really awesome watching that video :o
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On November 02 2013 13:23 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:On November 01 2013 20:40 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 01 2013 20:38 Rabiator wrote:On November 01 2013 20:35 lolfail9001 wrote:On November 01 2013 20:34 Rabiator wrote:On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote:
If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful.
If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful.
Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do. Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ... You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S? Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem? As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again? Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots. Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ... you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
Did you really expect him to actually have played Broodwar? Come on, just read the bullshit he writes about it.
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I hope people see this as "Let's make Sc2 (LOTV) better by adding depth to units" and not "let's make BW."
Lush merely used broodwar to show some examples, the tracking tank turrets is sweet, it would look great in sc2. Adding some more consistency and agility to harassing air units, hell yea.
Nobody wants Broodwar 2.0, what is being said is "All the depth to unit control made Broodwar amazing for spectators, the best players could really stand out from the crowd and unique, impressive styles could show through if we added some of this depth to the Sc2 units"
When LOTV comes out, and new units/abilities are added, balance will go right out the window. (Remember the HOTS beta? OR WOL when it was released?) It is a great chance to make a great game, much better.
I want to watch top SC2 competitions and wonder how someone could be so good, I want to be mesmerized by brilliant tactics and unit control that seems super human. I want to see players of all races with signature styles and able to utilize compositions that no one else can because of the way they can control them.
I'm tired of seeing 2 big blobs headbutt each other. I'm tired of seeing an economic builds get steamrolled because the defender didn't have enough of unit "X" and there is no way to make the units they do have more cost effective then their stats would indicate.
I want more clutch holds, comebacks, battle royals, and jaw dropping mind blowing plays. I want matchups to be revolutionized drastically when one top pro figures out a way to make something work that no one else ever could. But this can't happen if the tools aren't there for these artists to work with.
Here's to hope! 
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On November 02 2013 11:23 Rainling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 10:22 A3iL3r0n wrote:
Micro is the flashiest part of the game. And I think SC2 has a real opportunity to be that type of game, on steroids. With powerful macro control built in to the UI, I think players could spend more time on micro. The "fun stuff" that Blizzard wants to emphasize. I agree so much with this post.
the focus should definitely be on micro potential, this is an excellent point
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EPT
