EPTDepth of Micro - Page 33
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puderle
10 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On November 02 2013 18:44 dreamseller wrote: the focus should definitely be on micro potential, this is an excellent point It's a strategy game. If you want the UI to macro for you , I can only recommend that you play games of a different genre. E.g. a Moba or a ARPG. On November 02 2013 19:00 puderle wrote: can someone make a map with these changes included? .. would be nice to try.. i loe sc2, but i also love BW mechanics .. sometimes it really feels so slow how tanks f.e. react .. they are pretty useless in normal mode tehse days :/ :/ most changes are just a Value... wouldnt it be nice they already apply some of these to the Testrealm? ;:D :D Starbow has them. Go try it, it's a fun mod. | ||
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plgElwood
Germany518 Posts
If Blizzard would aproach all this, it would give the game so much more, than simply swtiching DMG/HEALTH/SPEED/ACC stats arround to statisticly fix a matchup love it. | ||
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L3monsta
New Zealand149 Posts
Hopefully Blizzard's ego doesn't get in the way and they're willing to admit this way could be better than their own implemented solution. | ||
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dreamseller
Australia914 Posts
On November 02 2013 19:03 Big J wrote: It's a strategy game. If you want the UI to macro for you , I can only recommend that you play games of a different genre. E.g. a Moba or a ARPG. nerfing the macro ui in sc2 isn't going to happen. hence the point that optimising the micro is the way to go here. also, personally recommending me to go and play a moba is fucking insulting. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On November 02 2013 21:21 dreamseller wrote: nerfing the macro ui in sc2 isn't going to happen. hence the point that optimising the micro is the way to go here. also, personally recommending me to go and play a moba is fucking insulting. Don't mind him. The insult say more about him than about you!  | ||
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Big-t
Austria1351 Posts
I somehow always felt like air units are failing in a lot of points and now I know why. The most fail imo is, as you said, the combination of the ?changed? fire point system and the fact that the sc2 engine priorities separating units over gliding. These two changes make every air fight hard to play and not fun to watch. (Seriously I always thought why did that one oracle glided and the others not, pro player´s flaw would be the natural answer from people who don´t know how the engine works) To the turret system: Why the f*** did blizz remove it from sc2? Why does a hyper modern colossus need to look at the directing it is moving??? And why does the viking needs to look at the unit for 0,1 sec until it shoots? At least blizz brought some new ways of micro to sc2 with the phoenix I know that most of these changes are made for better spectator views (Blizz doesn´t like clumped units), but when there are no people to play there won´t be any people to watch! I hope Blizzard will see this video! | ||
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flashimba
225 Posts
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RESOqub
51 Posts
The way most people talk about this on this forum is "defenders advantage" which is not the correct term. The correct term is "space control", the idea that an army has a region of influence over which it becomes prohibitively punishing for an opposing army to move through. At present, there are only three armies with effective space control: - Terrans with seige tanks (range 13) - Protoss Deathball (range 9) - Swarm Host (range 18-30 along the line of spawn) The big problem is that in one of those cases, the range is not only not particularly shorter than the other, but there is no drawback AT ALL to keeping those units in an army. The micro tricks that people talk about in this thread as having come about through BW mechanics were not developed by BW mechanics at all. They were a response, within the game, to players having to overcome other players with superior space control. Players will only develop a strategy and adopt it communally IF they are forced to do so. More units need to be made seige tankish - powerful AoE with clear and obvious drawbacks to including them at the front of an army. Once you have done this and you are able to severely punish an army for moving into your position, NO MATTER THE RACE OR THE COMPOSITION, the games micro mechanics will have room to grow. | ||
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adMachine
Australia54 Posts
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RESOqub
51 Posts
Please have a gander at this, Blizzard. Some of this stuff is just good. | ||
vinsang1000
Belgium365 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 02 2013 19:00 puderle wrote: can someone make a map with these changes included? .. would be nice to try.. i loe sc2, but i also love BW mechanics .. sometimes it really feels so slow how tanks f.e. react .. they are pretty useless in normal mode tehse days :/ :/ most changes are just a Value... wouldnt it be nice they already apply some of these to the Testrealm? ;:D :D Search for "depth" on EU /NA . Lalush published a map with thje changes! | ||
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RESOqub
51 Posts
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On November 02 2013 22:29 RESOqub wrote: Btw, have you ever considered that perhaps some of these changes were intentional to avoid things like the 3 banshees taking out 90 marines with micro? But why? That would be incredibly awesome to watch and play. In many ways this was possible in BW(if you had really stupid opponents) And I doubt that that would be broken, considering that the micro would be very intensive and the marine player would just be a-moving, giving enough time to react properly to the banshees while they kill the marines. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
On November 02 2013 22:10 RESOqub wrote: Micro decisions are all very well but your main issue continues to be that space control is difficult in SC2 and a great deal of that is down to extremely mobile seige units such as the Colossus. While the running narrative is that AoE has been nerfed in SC2, it hasn't at all. It has been buffed substantially in a number of ways particularly through the use of Banelings and especially Colossi, which allow for mobile AoE which co-ordinates very well with large groups of units. The way most people talk about this on this forum is "defenders advantage" which is not the correct term. The correct term is "space control", the idea that an army has a region of influence over which it becomes prohibitively punishing for an opposing army to move through. At present, there are only three armies with effective space control: - Terrans with seige tanks (range 13) - Protoss Deathball (range 9) - Swarm Host (range 18-30 along the line of spawn) The big problem is that in one of those cases, the range is not only not particularly shorter than the other, but there is no drawback AT ALL to keeping those units in an army. The micro tricks that people talk about in this thread as having come about through BW mechanics were not developed by BW mechanics at all. They were a response, within the game, to players having to overcome other players with superior space control. Players will only develop a strategy and adopt it communally IF they are forced to do so. More units need to be made seige tankish - powerful AoE with clear and obvious drawbacks to including them at the front of an army. Once you have done this and you are able to severely punish an army for moving into your position, NO MATTER THE RACE OR THE COMPOSITION, the games micro mechanics will have room to grow. If you are able to properly micro against a death ball i.e maximizing damage while minimizing losses then you can break up and death ball that pushes forward using the area your more mobile army has acquired to drawback to. If you can move shot with high result then you could move shot while getting into a defenders advantage. Just buffing area effects will only worsen the death ball since you need a bigger army to pierce locations. Hence you will group together more minimizing the damage dealt to your army. In BW you did not go reaver and psi storm to combat a mech composition, you used gateway units with some support either reavers then templars (or both depends). The focus was on the gateway units and the reason is purely to outmaneuver the mech player rather than maximizing damage dealt. Using map control as a weapon rather than space control. Zerg against mech in BW was the same, you did not go mass lurkers you went for an army to outmaneuver your opponent muta/hydra/lings. On November 02 2013 22:43 Psychobabas wrote: I feel that these changes have been done on purpose to allow newish players not to get demolished by more experienced players. We have ladder and exprienced player should demolish newbish player. If they did not then sc2 would be a horrible e-sport. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On November 02 2013 22:43 Psychobabas wrote: I feel that these changes have been done on purpose to allow newish players not to get demolished by more experienced players. Which is different than what is happening now because...? | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On November 02 2013 19:03 Big J wrote: It's a strategy game. If you want the UI to macro for you , I can only recommend that you play games of a different genre. E.g. a Moba or a ARPG. Starbow has them. Go try it, it's a fun mod. I agree, it's a Real Time Strategy game. Time management is an essential part of an RTS. | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
On November 02 2013 22:33 KeksX wrote: But why? That would be incredibly awesome to watch and play. In many ways this was possible in BW(if you had really stupid opponents) And I doubt that that would be broken, considering that the micro would be very intensive and the marine player would just be a-moving, giving enough time to react properly to the banshees while they kill the marines. It is awesome to watch good terran players control their banshees against marines right now imo. The modified banshees vs marines in the vid looks incredible easy to do and moving shot is pretty easy to do/learn in sc2 anyway. Every decent player would have great banshee micro with these changes and I dont see how that would be good for the game. It would be like how casters were always saying "great infestor micro" in wol. Maybe it is just me but the only thing I agree with is the point about the turrets. | ||
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