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... And banshees would then become worthless for picking off anything other than workers and marines. Which would be awful for the game, as far as I'm concerned.
Banshee micro is ALREADY a good way to separate good players from bad players. There is no real middle ground between "horribly overpowered" and "completely useless outside of harass" if you buff the maneuverability this much.
Outside of the TvT match up in breaking tank lines, that's about all they are useful for at the moment anyways. I don't understand what your point is.
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On November 03 2013 03:14 Emperor_Earth wrote:
Easily the most widely useful SC2-related OP this year besides LR ones.
The only criticism I have is that it was only compiled in HotS. Imagine this in beta or WoL.
Very insightful by LaLuSh.
LaLuSh hwaiting.
he did make a post in WoL
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=121769
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On November 02 2013 22:29 RESOqub wrote:
Btw, have you ever considered that perhaps some of these changes were intentional to avoid things like the 3 banshees taking out 90 marines with micro?
Maybe that would be something to consider if the oracle weren't a unit. Why would they break their game intentionally to prevent 3 banshees from taking out 90 marines (would this really be the case?), but then allow a single oracle to demolish a mineral line if you're the out of position in the slightest? Not sure there's a reason that wouldn't be inconsistent.
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Some of the posters that have this "bunker" mentality really symbolizes just how restrictive and inflexible SC2 is. Clearly this should be looked at for LoTV but perhaps not for the current HOTS meta. However when to implement isn't important. Its the how to implement.
The ability to micro air units like LaLush has pointed out brings out so many potentials. It gives players to really dedicate their time to make units much much more cost efficent (in return for perhaps a hit in eco/tech as your busy doing this). It gives players options on what to do. Some might prefer more macro/eco side of things etc. Theres always a tradeoff because in a real game it won't be banshees vs marines only. In LaLush's example, Leta was on 1 base for a long time because he had to spend most of his time baby sitting the wraiths. Its all a trade off but each tradeoffs are distinct and can make the games very dynamic.
Lets take a look at mutalisks vs marine/medivac scenario. If you dedicate ALOT of your time in the game micro-ing the mutalisk pack, some players would be able to halt and stop stimmed marine balls as they try to push out with any ling support. BW is the proof that you could literally shut down many control groups of MM by gracefully controlling the mutas while abusing the terrain (this is another potential in map design, its a win-win). In SC2 that would be suicide because no amount of micro can overcome the marines (because there is literally NONE to speak of for the mutalisks) unless you have sheer quantity or ling/bling support. It won't be overpowered either because one thor or a raven's HSM would make the pack have to split up.
The big picture is that this is allowing units to perform perhaps x5 or x10 their worth. Suddenly they can become the core units. They aren't just one or two time units or have specialist roles. Banshees for all intent and purpose could very well be a core unit vs ground units whether they have stim or not. Whoever wins that battle will be decided by micro, just like shown in the BW example of wraiths vs hydralisks. The micro potential is what made them go toe to toe with mutalisks/scourges.. In SC2 this would be impossible because what can you do? pre-split and kite with the inherent problems? A-move and who ever has the better composition just wins. This overcomes the compositional disadvantage and brings it all down to micro. The battle also can last for a very long time as seen by the examples. The mutalisk pack and the wraiths duked out for a LONG periods of time before each losses started to pile up.
Its quite interesting because many players dislike how the marine can be micro-ed so much to boost its cost efficiency. This would allow other units from other races to do the same (mutalisk, oracle with a projectile) without having to make them move faster and faster.. and faster. A pack of oracles could be quite interesting to watch without the unit turning into "hopefully kill workers early game then become an expensive obs late game" syndrome.
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^
I think it's pretty natural the marine is disliked because of the micro potential: it's nearly the only unit in the game one is able to micro to such an extent. An opponent without that possibility would be terribly frustrated.
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A very intresting read, thanks for posting this LaLush!
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On November 03 2013 09:31 Yorbon wrote:
^
I think it's pretty natural the marine is disliked because of the micro potential: it's nearly the only unit in the game one is able to micro to such an extent. An opponent without that possibility would be terribly frustrated.
I don't think people's occasional dislike for the marine has anything to do with the behaviour of that unit, but rather with it dominating every single XvT matchup in terms of strategies.
"MMM deals with everything"... sounds familiar?
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On November 03 2013 00:20 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2013 00:03 RampancyTW wrote:On November 02 2013 23:50 LaLuSh wrote:On November 02 2013 23:41 Chaggi wrote:On November 02 2013 23:35 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:On November 02 2013 22:33 KeksX wrote:On November 02 2013 22:29 RESOqub wrote:
Btw, have you ever considered that perhaps some of these changes were intentional to avoid things like the 3 banshees taking out 90 marines with micro? But why? That would be incredibly awesome to watch and play. In many ways this was possible in BW(if you had really stupid opponents) And I doubt that that would be broken, considering that the micro would be very intensive and the marine player would just be a-moving, giving enough time to react properly to the banshees while they kill the marines. It is awesome to watch good terran players control their banshees against marines right now imo. The modified banshees vs marines in the vid looks incredible easy to do and moving shot is pretty easy to do/learn in sc2 anyway. Every decent player would have great banshee micro with these changes and I dont see how that would be good for the game. It would be like how casters were always saying "great infestor micro" in wol. Maybe it is just me but the only thing I agree with is the point about the turrets. then tweak the damage. If it creates micro and is able to separate good players from bad players, it's always a good thing. Balance will obviously be changed but I don't think that's such a big deal This. The wraith in SC2 dealt 8 dmg to ground. Think about that. 8 damage. In Korea I believe they were called paper airplanes because they were so fragile. Wraith's mineral/gas cost was exactly the same as a banshee that deals 12+12 damage. If the banshee is made maneuverable. You don't necessarily need to have it 2 shot workes and marines anymore. Same with viking. Viking wouldn't have been given 9 range in the first place if it were more maneuverable. ... And banshees would then become worthless for picking off anything other than workers and marines. Which would be awful for the game, as far as I'm concerned. Banshee micro is ALREADY a good way to separate good players from bad players. There is no real middle ground between "horribly overpowered" and "completely useless outside of harass" if you buff the maneuverability this much. On November 02 2013 23:35 SC2ShoWTimE wrote:On November 02 2013 22:33 KeksX wrote:On November 02 2013 22:29 RESOqub wrote:
Btw, have you ever considered that perhaps some of these changes were intentional to avoid things like the 3 banshees taking out 90 marines with micro? But why? That would be incredibly awesome to watch and play. In many ways this was possible in BW(if you had really stupid opponents) And I doubt that that would be broken, considering that the micro would be very intensive and the marine player would just be a-moving, giving enough time to react properly to the banshees while they kill the marines. It is awesome to watch good terran players control their banshees against marines right now imo. The modified banshees vs marines in the vid looks incredible easy to do and moving shot is pretty easy to do/learn in sc2 anyway. Every decent player would have great banshee micro with these changes and I dont see how that would be good for the game. It would be like how casters were always saying "great infestor micro" in wol. Maybe it is just me but the only thing I agree with is the point about the turrets. Not just you, man. Completely how I feel as well. The turret thing would buff units that would currently benefit from more micro capability. The air changes (beyond the simply bug/inconsistency fixes) would either break the units completely or force the units to be nerfed so hard that they'd be useless when not expertly microed. Look. You make these ridiculous assertions/predictions like you are somehow able to see into the future and easily deconstruct all the effects of a change like this.
Your thread is above debating chobos who want to theorycraft balance repercussions. It's plainly ridiculous to put balance before engine mechanics.
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i just played the test map , how do u make the tank attack while moving? ..... did LaLuSh change that? and the only problem i saw from this was that u cannot tell how many units are in the pack as it looks like there is one viking/muta etc when there are like 10-20 which would be my only concern other than that this change actually is really logical and makes sense and most importantly... was fun to play.
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On November 03 2013 12:56 adMachine wrote:
i just played the test map , how do u make the tank attack while moving? ..... did LaLuSh change that? and the only problem i saw from this was that u cannot tell how many units are in the pack as it looks like there is one viking/muta etc when there are like 10-20 which would be my only concern other than that this change actually is really logical and makes sense and most importantly... was fun to play.
Separation radius wouldn't be removed, it would be fixed. Units won't all of a sudden stack. THey will however maintain momentum while even the tiniest bit overlapped which they don't now.
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On November 03 2013 12:49 ShadeR wrote:
Your thread is above debating chobos who want to theorycraft balance repercussions. It's plainly ridiculous to put balance before engine mechanics.
I agree, design is more important than balance... well the two go hand in hand really, there's no point in having one with out the other. However the balance is so fine right now I think it would be okay to tip it a little bit, since Blizzard (David Kim) themselves have said that they're okay with there being slight imbalances as long as the game is fun to watch. I think that design should be addressed first/prioritized and balance can be fine tuned later.
Plus the other side of the coin is that the way to make things balanced again is to play better, find counters and fine tune those.. Let the meta game evolve... its what happened in Brood War.
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the microable vikings and oracles look better .. and more fun .. might be better to play that way
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On November 03 2013 12:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2013 09:31 Yorbon wrote:
^
I think it's pretty natural the marine is disliked because of the micro potential: it's nearly the only unit in the game one is able to micro to such an extent. An opponent without that possibility would be terribly frustrated. I don't think people's occasional dislike for the marine has anything to do with the behaviour of that unit, but rather with it dominating every single XvT matchup in terms of strategies. "MMM deals with everything"... sounds familiar?
MMM can deal with everything has a lot to do with Marines having 0 damage point though, which does in fact define the behavior of that unit.
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What is astonishing in the video is that it shows that the genius in bw can be reproduced quite easily. One day a new rts will come with those features and it will stomp sc2 so hard into the ground that it will make the competition from lol look like a joke.
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I support implementing some of this micro in some units. I dont think I needs to be changed across the board but rather just adding/changing more units to "break the rules" as the phoenix does. I would hope that adding units that prioritize gliding over separating or units that dont have front swing would be more practical and feasible than retooling the entire engine. LotV is the perfect time, for example, to add and balance a micro intense unit that can't be used with the Protoss Deathball.
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The video is incredibly good, but please put some more entusiasm in your voice. It sounds like a funeral speech :/
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It's definitely a good video, enjoyed it. Would like to see some of these things implemented for sure.
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I'm curious, if these mechanics could be implemented for only one unit, which one would you pick? Because I feel like Blizzard would sooner implement this for exactly unit as part of a diversifying and appeasement strategy than admit defeat and change the game globally.
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On November 03 2013 12:56 adMachine wrote:
i just played the test map , how do u make the tank attack while moving? ..... did LaLuSh change that? and the only problem i saw from this was that u cannot tell how many units are in the pack as it looks like there is one viking/muta etc when there are like 10-20 which would be my only concern other than that this change actually is really logical and makes sense and most importantly... was fun to play.
You can try the tank by searching for "Starbow Unit Tester".
As decemberscalm said in his reply: I want separation/spreading mechanic to be fixed so units don't dead stop. Units will still spread if spreading is fixed to not interfere with movement/gliding. Removing separation radius is just a temporary/make-shift fix to let people see how units would micro if separation was handled the right way by the engine.
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On November 03 2013 21:37 Grumbels wrote:
I'm curious, if these mechanics could be implemented for only one unit, which one would you pick? Because I feel like Blizzard would sooner implement this for exactly unit as part of a diversifying and appeasement strategy than admit defeat and change the game globally.
Thor.
Just imagine a skyscraper high Walker slowly move towards you, and shooting without stopping. Would also look pretty cool combined with the attack animation I think.
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EPT
