please someone who speaks korean translate this...
I for some reason imagine brood war pros already know of this issue but very eye opening to see how the units could function in the map editor vs how they currently function.
On November 04 2013 09:35 Chronos. wrote: I hope Blizzard at least considers making some of these changes, I'd love for air units to move more fluidly.
It should be their number one priority for legacy of the void IMO... i'm not too optimistic though =\
However, I persist in thinking that 1 and 2 are actually good things. I personally disliked how air stacking worked in BW, it just didn't feel right.
I really like how you can harass with one or two banshees (and even two to four if you can manage two front) but not much more
And the viking micro against corruptors is, in fact, ridiculous. You do realize that this is just transforming all air units in phoenix (albeit with a bit of micro)?
BW is not the end of all thing. There were good things, there were bad things, and there was a tremendous lot of design choices. But a design choice is not necessarily better than another.
On November 04 2013 07:07 LaLuSh wrote: Anyone willing to translate it into their native language is welcome to contact me. I've already finished a basic english transcript with timestamps, so it should be easy for you.
Especially nice if someone could translate it to korean.
Subtitles can be done in 1 of 2 ways:
1. Send me a PM with your googleaccount (email name) and the language you want to translate the video into. I will then share access with you to my video's subtitling feature on youtube. There is already a working transcript in english with time stamps. You basically only have to do a sentence by sentence translation.
2. You download one of the following raw subtitle files: .srt-format or .vtt-format. You then edit them yourself in a subtitle editor program and reupload them for me to download.
If time permits, I'll write up a Chinese translation and/or a French one.
Its times like these that I really appreciate the community.
I mean that one basically reads as "SC2 is awful, and Blizzard is awful - here's why. P.S. I really dislike Dustin Browder, did I say that yet?"
This one is "SC2 could be so much better if these made these changes to the engine", which is 1000x more useful.
yes i'm aware of that, and judging from the OP I think lalush is aware as well. While I agree with everything he said in the first thread... it was condescending and people generally don't bother listening at that point.
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
There was no Reactor, Warp Gate, Inject Larva in BW ... in short NO PRODUCTION BOOSTERS and thus the productivity was "1 unit per building at a steady rate". Marines are popular because they are cheap AND can be massed easily; if there wasnt a Reactor we might see more Marauders.
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
Did you really expect him to actually have played Broodwar? Come on, just read the bullshit he writes about it.
I did play more BW than I did play SC2. You are just one of the "ad hominem dudes" that prefer dismissing someones argument because he was wrong in your opinion somewhere else.
None of you ever argued with the original point I made ... that micro in SC2 (true microing like Lalush showed) is overshadowed by production ... even if it would be possible in SC2.
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
There was no Reactor, Warp Gate, Inject Larva in BW ... in short NO PRODUCTION BOOSTERS and thus the productivity was "1 unit per building at a steady rate". Marines are popular because they are cheap AND can be massed easily; if there wasnt a Reactor we might see more Marauders.
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
Did you really expect him to actually have played Broodwar? Come on, just read the bullshit he writes about it.
I did play more BW than I did play SC2. You are just one of the "ad hominem dudes" that prefer dismissing someones argument because he was wrong in your opinion somewhere else.
None of you ever argued with the original point I made ... that micro in SC2 (true microing like Lalush showed) is overshadowed by production ... even if it would be possible in SC2.
Since you did not play a lot of SC2, that doesn't mean anything. And guess what kind of argument
You are just one of the "ad hominem dudes" that prefer dismissing someones argument because he was wrong in your opinion somewhere else.
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
There was no Reactor, Warp Gate, Inject Larva in BW ... in short NO PRODUCTION BOOSTERS and thus the productivity was "1 unit per building at a steady rate". Marines are popular because they are cheap AND can be massed easily; if there wasnt a Reactor we might see more Marauders.
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
Did you really expect him to actually have played Broodwar? Come on, just read the bullshit he writes about it.
I did play more BW than I did play SC2. You are just one of the "ad hominem dudes" that prefer dismissing someones argument because he was wrong in your opinion somewhere else.
None of you ever argued with the original point I made ... that micro in SC2 (true microing like Lalush showed) is overshadowed by production ... even if it would be possible in SC2.
warp gate is not production booster. I think you mean chronoboost. and obviously you are not meant to produce tank at the same rate as zerg/toss T1 swarm or that would be ridiculously stupid. just because one unit is produced faster doesn't mean anything without ideal unit composition, otherwise zerg would remax into ling whole day. Banshee is produced slower than both lings and roaches yet it is one of the key units to hold roach ling baneling all in in WoL.
anyway my point being, siege tanks always needed tech lab factory in BW to be produced. I don't know why you think this is what limits them being able to reproduced same rate as Protoss/Zerg. (do you really want terran to produce siege tanks as quickly as how you can warp in zealots?)
and lol@ true micro-ing? The Lalush ones only shows micro-ing in BW. As if SC2 can't have their own micro-able moments just because of mass production. Have you not seen any ling baneling muta vs bio mine games where it is all about the reproduction rate and mechanics?
should we call baneling marine split fake microing now?
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
There was no Reactor, Warp Gate, Inject Larva in BW ... in short NO PRODUCTION BOOSTERS and thus the productivity was "1 unit per building at a steady rate". Marines are popular because they are cheap AND can be massed easily; if there wasnt a Reactor we might see more Marauders.
On November 02 2013 18:25 Big J wrote:
On November 02 2013 13:23 ETisME wrote:
On November 02 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:38 Rabiator wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:35 lolfail9001 wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:34 Rabiator wrote:
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
Did you really expect him to actually have played Broodwar? Come on, just read the bullshit he writes about it.
I did play more BW than I did play SC2. You are just one of the "ad hominem dudes" that prefer dismissing someones argument because he was wrong in your opinion somewhere else.
None of you ever argued with the original point I made ... that micro in SC2 (true microing like Lalush showed) is overshadowed by production ... even if it would be possible in SC2.
Since you did not play a lot of SC2, that doesn't mean anything. And guess what kind of argument
On November 01 2013 18:15 ejozl wrote: If you make micro with BW engine, units will be much more powerful. If you make micro with SC2 engine, units will be little more powerful. Micro will be good with both engines, but with the BW one, it's more crucial to do.
Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
There was no Reactor, Warp Gate, Inject Larva in BW ... in short NO PRODUCTION BOOSTERS and thus the productivity was "1 unit per building at a steady rate". Marines are popular because they are cheap AND can be massed easily; if there wasnt a Reactor we might see more Marauders.
On November 02 2013 18:25 Big J wrote:
On November 02 2013 13:23 ETisME wrote:
On November 02 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:40 lolfail9001 wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:38 Rabiator wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:35 lolfail9001 wrote:
On November 01 2013 20:34 Rabiator wrote: [quote] Micro in SC2 is simply overshadowed by MASS (RE)PRODUCTION to the point of becoming pointless. This makes the game boring to watch ...
You did not even watch the game to begin with (your knowledge of what's up makes sure we know about that), what are you talking about :S?
Do you have another line of argument apart from the obvious ad hominem?
As obvious as it is, you did admit you did not play the game and your posts about automatically maximized DPS that is so good, nobody wants to avoid that, make sure that you never heard about splash damage units either. So, what is the point of argument, again?
Splash damage units in SC2 have been NERFED (compared to BW) when their efficiency should have been increased due to the increased amount of units coming your way. Quite obviously that would make them rather OP ... which would make it obvious that Blizzards design in SC2 is awful. The nerfing includes the required tech lab for Siege Tanks, which prevents them from being reproduced at the same rate at which Zerg can get their swarm back or Protoss their Zealots.
Could you please STOP with the ad hominem and try to argue with the point of the topic? Try to ARGUE your point instead ...
you need tech lab to produce siege tank in both bw and sc2
Did you really expect him to actually have played Broodwar? Come on, just read the bullshit he writes about it.
I did play more BW than I did play SC2. You are just one of the "ad hominem dudes" that prefer dismissing someones argument because he was wrong in your opinion somewhere else.
None of you ever argued with the original point I made ... that micro in SC2 (true microing like Lalush showed) is overshadowed by production ... even if it would be possible in SC2.
Since you did not play a lot of SC2, that doesn't mean anything. And guess what kind of argument
You are just one of the "ad hominem dudes" that prefer dismissing someones argument because he was wrong in your opinion somewhere else.
is?
wow, 7000 posts, i wonder if they are all steeped in such a magnificent training in formal logic.
Na, just the ones where I answer that guy, since he keeps on spamming the same 2 topics over and over again (look, we are back to derailing this thread to production boosts when it was about damage point and stuff like that) and then there are two possible outcomes: 1) You answer him and he disappears to make the same arguement again at the next possibility (or even if there is no possibility), since he actually does not have more up his sleeve than the 3phrases he writes at the beginning of the discussion. (blablabla PRODUCTION BOOSTERS, blablabla TOO FAST, blablabla UNIT DENSITY) 2) You don't answer him and he will post how nobody can "disprove" him.
Then pair that with lack of experience/knowledge about either Starcraft, since he (assuming from his comments) hasn't played either extensively.
well to be fair, production booster mechanics, max supply too quickly, and unit density/clumping are the main premise of most of the conclusions about the design shortcomings in sc2.
i'm going to guess you don't disagree with these design shortcomings, just that the guy is repeating himself?
On November 04 2013 21:51 dreamseller wrote: well to be fair, production booster mechanics, max supply too quickly, and unit density/clumping are the main premise of most of the conclusions about the design shortcomings in sc2.
i'm going to guess you don't disagree with these design shortcomings, just that the guy is repeating himself?
Unit density/clumping is not real problem though, considering that SC2's AoE even after all the nerfs is good enough to make clumping all the stuff in 1 ball not the best way to play. Production booster is subjective, max supply is legit, but supply workers take is more legit. And yes, repeating these formulae even when it is off-topic is straight up annoying. P. S. Did i say, that i want to see moar micro in SC2, but not moar ported-straight-from-BW-micro :3?
On November 04 2013 21:51 dreamseller wrote: well to be fair, production booster mechanics, max supply too quickly, and unit density/clumping are the main premise of most of the conclusions about the design shortcomings in sc2.
i'm going to guess you don't disagree with these design shortcomings, just that the guy is repeating himself?
I disagree with them, but this discussion has no place here. I'm sending you a PM with some of the details why.
On November 04 2013 21:51 dreamseller wrote: well to be fair, production booster mechanics, max supply too quickly, and unit density/clumping are the main premise of most of the conclusions about the design shortcomings in sc2.
i'm going to guess you don't disagree with these design shortcomings, just that the guy is repeating himself?
Unit density/clumping is not real problem though, considering that SC2's AoE even after all the nerfs is good enough to make clumping all the stuff in 1 ball not the best way to play. Production booster is subjective, max supply is legit, but supply workers take is more legit. And yes, repeating these formulae even when it is off-topic is straight up annoying. P. S. Did i say, that i want to see moar micro in SC2, but not moar ported-straight-from-BW-micro :3?
agreed. people loved complaining about forcefields as well, labeled as "anti micro" spell. comes hots, it suddenly becomes a much cooler spell without needing any change at all
On November 05 2013 00:29 Wombat_NI wrote: It's cool occasionally to see some like that, mitigated by how little the other player can do to reliably avoid the spell.
we don't live in 2012 anymore, zerg has learnt how to bait forcefield energy by distracting/baiting, flanking etc
On November 04 2013 09:39 dutchfriese wrote: please someone who speaks korean translate this...
I for some reason imagine brood war pros already know of this issue but very eye opening to see how the units could function in the map editor vs how they currently function.
On November 04 2013 09:35 Chronos. wrote: I hope Blizzard at least considers making some of these changes, I'd love for air units to move more fluidly.
It should be their number one priority for legacy of the void IMO... i'm not too optimistic though =\
Changing air units to make them this good would require a MASSIVE re-balancing of the game (which I think they should do anyway). Vikings alone would completely unstoppable if they could shoot while moving, and phoenixes would lose their gimmick.
Frankly I WANT to see the game have more micro potential, but there would be enormous consequences.
On November 05 2013 00:29 Wombat_NI wrote: It's cool occasionally to see some like that, mitigated by how little the other player can do to reliably avoid the spell.
we don't live in 2012 anymore, zerg has learnt how to bait forcefield energy by distracting/baiting, flanking etc
I still find the ability problematic, baiting and whatnot notwithstanding. If good forcefields are hit, youre fucked.
EPT
