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Its November 2013 and people are still bitching about forcefields, despite sentry-heavy play being a smaller part of the metagame than at pretty much any point since the WoL beta. Amazing.
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On November 05 2013 06:15 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 06:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they dont, i watch high level sc2 and i think it is pretty accurate. Roachwars and micro in the same sentence are pretty funny too, at least if we talk about real micro and not something like making a concave BEFORE the fight. Focus fire and burrow micro (and in case of well setup concaves pull-back micro) does exist, nobody has enough APM to incorporate it in useful amounts though.
because its very weak. Focus fire with rather cheap and homogenous compositions does hardly matter, since most things are done statistically right anyways.
Burrow micro does hardly matter, since it does not deny projectiles that are already fired (like blink) and since you lose damage output from burrowed units. Statistically it's a tradeoff of 8dps vs 10health/second (assuming you have the tunneling claws). And even that is not true, since you have burrow delay which reduces your dps, while your roach doesn't regenerate since it isn't burrowed yet. Also through the delay it's very hard to burrow in between shots without losing dps.
Also through the burrow/unburrow delay it's very sluggish (if you burrow very lowhealth roaches, chances are that they die before they respond). It's very analogue to damage point.
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On November 05 2013 06:15 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 06:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they dont, i watch high level sc2 and i think it is pretty accurate. Roachwars and micro in the same sentence are pretty funny too, at least if we talk about real micro and not something like making a concave BEFORE the fight. Focus fire and burrow micro (and in case of well setup concaves pull-back micro) does exist, nobody has enough APM to incorporate it in useful amounts though.
It exists but nobody uses it cause it doesnt really exist right?
I think you are the biggest pro sc2 guy i have ever seen here. It is fine if you think there are no flaws in the design that could be better, but many people think otherwise, even if that doesnt mean that they think sc2 is bad.
People like you dont get that, as soon as you read someone argue about these things they are haters or whatever.
Real life isnt black/white, maybe you could understand that finally.
Yes there are some roachwars that have little packs of roaches attacking expos etc, but the game isnt won there most of the time, its all about the one big fight and fungals/hydras. Its pretty much a click, even if you rerange a little bit, its just awfull to watch..
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You can watch (actually watch, not just listen to) soO vs Byul game 1 on Whirlwind, and have a pretty good idea on how micro matters in roach wars (take it from someone who pretty much shared your view three weeks ago)
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On November 05 2013 06:23 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Its November 2013 and people are still bitching about forcefields, despite sentry-heavy play being a smaller part of the metagame than at pretty much any point since the WoL beta. Amazing.
The sentry is still a terribly designed unit, so why shouldn't they?
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
Roach wars do factor in a form of defender's advantage you're right there, but it's almost wholly to do with reinforcement distances at work.
There are a lot of cool things in SC2 so shitting on the game in its entirety isn't necessarily productive. Look at things that are skillful, interesting unit interactions and try to make more of that possible.
I love the Phoenix for example, and it's quite thread relevant I guess in that Blizz gave it that ez mode moving shot.
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On November 05 2013 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
There's more you can do to mitigate damage of the likes of storm post-cast
EMP you have the ghost/Templar dance which is cool.
I do like Terrans using medivac pickups to get out of forcefields, would be nice if other races could do things like that reliably. Burrow micro being more responsive would be cool, but problematic given how much Protoss is currently balanced around the spell.
Brood War has spells that are just as potent, in fact some are stronger. The lack of smart cast + BW games not being as dependent on one or two big engagements make this less apparent. I think the problem is sexiness. Well placed storms in BW and SC2 shreds terran bio to shreds. And its cool *why* they die. Its someone summoning lightning from their mind burning the flesh of all his enemies. Forcefields are bumps on the ground. Both are powerful effects that, when used properly, is powerful. Storm requires spread out templars hitting from multiple spots using observers as spotters. They are used to soften bio compositions and tax medivac healing. Forcefields are close range spells that requires a strong army supporting sentries in order to engage in a brawl with the enemy composition. Its a bit too thuggish for a spellcaster in my book.
If I delve in further, there is a big fundamental difference in spell casters from SC:BW and SC2.
In SC2, the emphasis is placed on stopping a spell from being cast because once cast would normally result in a huge advantage that could result in the opposing army being disintegrated in seconds. Now why is the case? because the abilities in question often have no interaction with the opposing player, as in once cast theres nothing you can do about except bracing for impact.
Examples = 1) WoL Fungals where if you dont kill the infestor, your entire army might be stunned/damaged and literallly just die without being able to do anything.
2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories.
3) FFs where if you can't bait the spells or kill the sentries, your enitre main might get destoryed as the ramp is blocked forever or generally it just kills off any interactions with the opposing units as they are stuck helplessly while being killed.
This is why still do this day people get frustrated. Over the years, players have found ways to neutralise this threat with more precision and variety but at the end of the day, if it didn't get neutralised the end result will always be the same.
In SC:BW, the emphasis was placed on troops instead of the abilities. Why? no smart cast i.e. using casters was always going to be difficult during battle. Casters were hard to access (very high in the tech tree), fagile to the nth degree (I think ghosts had 45hp, and HTs were 40/40 - correct me if I am wrong) and the signature abilities had to be researched. So only in the late mid/late game do we see casters start appearing on the field.
Then there was the abilities themselves. Lets look at the signature spells and its fundamental difference to the SC2 ones.
Plague = does not kill units but put them down to 1hp. Just because you got plagued does not mean you lose or suddenly the zerg gets an upper hand. It gives you the opposing player to save your forces because it takes time for the plague to put you down to 1hp.
Ensare = Slows any units to a crawl within an AOE. Thats it. Need a queen which doesn't do much outside of perhaps broodlings and slowly a pack of units while being a costly unit.
Storm = kills units very fast within the aoe but gives time to get out of the spell. You can move out of the storms.
EMP = drains energy but you need science vessels which can't directly kill anything other than via irradiate (vs biological units but this is over a long period time kill spell which sometimes works against you e.g. ultralisk eraser).
Maelstorm = stuns only biological units but deals no damage. To use maelstorms and also feedbacks, you need a series of tech structures, two DTs, research the ability and then wait enough energy. DTs themselves don't deal any damage.
Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc).
Stasis Field = Freezes the units but units frozen cannot be damaged. Its an expensive spell that doesn't sometimes result in what you want and work against you.
All these abilities gives the opposing player to interact after the spell has been cast outside of a few abilities such as stasis field or lockdown. However those few abilities that do exhibit the SC2 problem are downright hard to gain access in terms of time/resources and limited in what they do primarily because they don't deal the damage so there is no point rushing to these spells.
So a combination of somewhat imba spells balanced out by smart casting, resource/time heavy requirements to gain access to these spells, allowing the opposing player to interact with the spell after its been cast, spells that normally don't directly deal damage and if they did, they did over a long period of time.. Thats why in this particular game, casters or abilities were rarely frowned upon but memorable and at often times magnificent to spectate knowing how hard they were to use and rare they were. They aided the armies in battle not deciding fate of the battle.
On a side note, I do somewhat miss lategame PvZ in BW. So much magicks and the theme of hightech aliens holding the zerg infestation at bay with everything they got.
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On November 05 2013 07:35 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
There's more you can do to mitigate damage of the likes of storm post-cast
EMP you have the ghost/Templar dance which is cool.
I do like Terrans using medivac pickups to get out of forcefields, would be nice if other races could do things like that reliably. Burrow micro being more responsive would be cool, but problematic given how much Protoss is currently balanced around the spell.
Brood War has spells that are just as potent, in fact some are stronger. The lack of smart cast + BW games not being as dependent on one or two big engagements make this less apparent. I think the problem is sexiness. Well placed storms in BW and SC2 shreds terran bio to shreds. And its cool *why* they die. Its someone summoning lightning from their mind burning the flesh of all his enemies. Forcefields are bumps on the ground. Both are powerful effects that, when used properly, is powerful. Storm requires spread out templars hitting from multiple spots using observers as spotters. They are used to soften bio compositions and tax medivac healing. Forcefields are close range spells that requires a strong army supporting sentries in order to engage in a brawl with the enemy composition. Its a bit too thuggish for a spellcaster in my book. If I delve in further, there is a big fundamental difference in spell casters from SC:BW and SC2. In SC2, the emphasis is placed on stopping a spell from being cast because once cast would normally result in a huge advantage that could result in the opposing army being disintegrated in seconds. Now why is the case? because the abilities in question often have no interaction with the opposing player, as in once cast theres nothing you can do about except bracing for impact. Examples = 1) WoL Fungals where if you dont kill the infestor, your entire army might be stunned/damaged and literallly just die without being able to do anything. 2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories. 3) FFs where if you can't bait the spells or kill the sentries, your enitre main might get destoryed as the ramp is blocked forever or generally it just kills off any interactions with the opposing units as they are stuck helplessly while being killed. This is why still do this day people get frustrated. Over the years, players have found ways to neutralise this threat with more precision and variety but at the end of the day, if it didn't get neutralised the end result will always be the same. In SC:BW, the emphasis was placed on troops instead of the abilities. Why? no smart cast i.e. using casters was always going to be difficult during battle. Casters were hard to access (very high in the tech tree), fagile to the nth degree (I think ghosts had 45hp, and HTs were 40/40 - correct me if I am wrong) and the signature abilities had to be researched. So only in the late mid/late game do we see casters start appearing on the field. Then there was the abilities themselves. Lets look at the signature spells and its fundamental difference to the SC2 ones. Plague = does not kill units but put them down to 1hp. Just because you got plagued does not mean you lose or suddenly the zerg gets an upper hand. It gives you the opposing player to save your forces because it takes time for the plague to put you down to 1hp. Ensare = Slows any units to a crawl within an AOE. Thats it. Need a queen which doesn't do much outside of perhaps broodlings and slowly a pack of units while being a costly unit. Storm = kills units very fast within the aoe but gives time to get out of the spell. You can move out of the storms. EMP = drains energy but you need science vessels which can't directly kill anything other than via irradiate (vs biological units but this is over a long period time kill spell which sometimes works against you e.g. ultralisk eraser). Maelstorm = stuns only biological units but deals no damage. To use maelstorms and also feedbacks, you need a series of tech structures, two DTs, research the ability and then wait enough energy. DTs themselves don't deal any damage. Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc). Stasis Field = Freezes the units but units frozen cannot be damaged. Its an expensive spell that doesn't sometimes result in what you want and work against you. All these abilities gives the opposing player to interact after the spell has been cast outside of a few abilities such as stasis field or lockdown. However those few abilities that do exhibit the SC2 problem are downright hard to gain access in terms of time/resources and limited in what they do primarily because they don't deal the damage so there is no point rushing to these spells. So a combination of somewhat imba spells balanced out by smart casting, resource/time heavy requirements to gain access to these spells, allowing the opposing player to interact with the spell after its been cast, spells that normally don't directly deal damage and if they did, they did over a long period of time.. Thats why in this particular game, casters or abilities were rarely frowned upon but memorable and at often times magnificent to spectate knowing how hard they were to use and rare they were. They aided the armies in battle not deciding fate of the battle. On a side note, I do somewhat miss lategame PvZ in BW. So much magicks and the theme of hightech aliens holding the zerg infestation at bay with everything they got.
If you're looking for debate about spellcaster design, unit interface, and preference of player/spell interaction you won't get it from me since we'll already be in agreement.
I'm just saying that Plague without an army to finish off enemy units is about as powerful as forcefields without an army to finish off enemy units.
Abstractly speaking, Forcefields are short ranged spells that need an already powerful army beside it in order for it to work. Which is about as "OP" as medivac heals.
Its annoying because of how helpless you feel when it works, and how stupid your opponent looks when it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground where forcefields simply does it job aptly. Either it lands perfectly, and you're screwed or they miss and its as if they just burned the mana for no reason what so ever.
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On November 05 2013 08:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 07:35 YyapSsap wrote:On November 05 2013 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
There's more you can do to mitigate damage of the likes of storm post-cast
EMP you have the ghost/Templar dance which is cool.
I do like Terrans using medivac pickups to get out of forcefields, would be nice if other races could do things like that reliably. Burrow micro being more responsive would be cool, but problematic given how much Protoss is currently balanced around the spell.
Brood War has spells that are just as potent, in fact some are stronger. The lack of smart cast + BW games not being as dependent on one or two big engagements make this less apparent. I think the problem is sexiness. Well placed storms in BW and SC2 shreds terran bio to shreds. And its cool *why* they die. Its someone summoning lightning from their mind burning the flesh of all his enemies. Forcefields are bumps on the ground. Both are powerful effects that, when used properly, is powerful. Storm requires spread out templars hitting from multiple spots using observers as spotters. They are used to soften bio compositions and tax medivac healing. Forcefields are close range spells that requires a strong army supporting sentries in order to engage in a brawl with the enemy composition. Its a bit too thuggish for a spellcaster in my book. If I delve in further, there is a big fundamental difference in spell casters from SC:BW and SC2. In SC2, the emphasis is placed on stopping a spell from being cast because once cast would normally result in a huge advantage that could result in the opposing army being disintegrated in seconds. Now why is the case? because the abilities in question often have no interaction with the opposing player, as in once cast theres nothing you can do about except bracing for impact. Examples = 1) WoL Fungals where if you dont kill the infestor, your entire army might be stunned/damaged and literallly just die without being able to do anything. 2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories. 3) FFs where if you can't bait the spells or kill the sentries, your enitre main might get destoryed as the ramp is blocked forever or generally it just kills off any interactions with the opposing units as they are stuck helplessly while being killed. This is why still do this day people get frustrated. Over the years, players have found ways to neutralise this threat with more precision and variety but at the end of the day, if it didn't get neutralised the end result will always be the same. In SC:BW, the emphasis was placed on troops instead of the abilities. Why? no smart cast i.e. using casters was always going to be difficult during battle. Casters were hard to access (very high in the tech tree), fagile to the nth degree (I think ghosts had 45hp, and HTs were 40/40 - correct me if I am wrong) and the signature abilities had to be researched. So only in the late mid/late game do we see casters start appearing on the field. Then there was the abilities themselves. Lets look at the signature spells and its fundamental difference to the SC2 ones. Plague = does not kill units but put them down to 1hp. Just because you got plagued does not mean you lose or suddenly the zerg gets an upper hand. It gives you the opposing player to save your forces because it takes time for the plague to put you down to 1hp. Ensare = Slows any units to a crawl within an AOE. Thats it. Need a queen which doesn't do much outside of perhaps broodlings and slowly a pack of units while being a costly unit. Storm = kills units very fast within the aoe but gives time to get out of the spell. You can move out of the storms. EMP = drains energy but you need science vessels which can't directly kill anything other than via irradiate (vs biological units but this is over a long period time kill spell which sometimes works against you e.g. ultralisk eraser). Maelstorm = stuns only biological units but deals no damage. To use maelstorms and also feedbacks, you need a series of tech structures, two DTs, research the ability and then wait enough energy. DTs themselves don't deal any damage. Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc). Stasis Field = Freezes the units but units frozen cannot be damaged. Its an expensive spell that doesn't sometimes result in what you want and work against you. All these abilities gives the opposing player to interact after the spell has been cast outside of a few abilities such as stasis field or lockdown. However those few abilities that do exhibit the SC2 problem are downright hard to gain access in terms of time/resources and limited in what they do primarily because they don't deal the damage so there is no point rushing to these spells. So a combination of somewhat imba spells balanced out by smart casting, resource/time heavy requirements to gain access to these spells, allowing the opposing player to interact with the spell after its been cast, spells that normally don't directly deal damage and if they did, they did over a long period of time.. Thats why in this particular game, casters or abilities were rarely frowned upon but memorable and at often times magnificent to spectate knowing how hard they were to use and rare they were. They aided the armies in battle not deciding fate of the battle. On a side note, I do somewhat miss lategame PvZ in BW. So much magicks and the theme of hightech aliens holding the zerg infestation at bay with everything they got. If you're looking for debate about spellcaster design, unit interface, and preference of player/spell interaction you won't get it from me since we'll already be in agreement. I'm just saying that Plague without an army to finish off enemy units is about as powerful as forcefields without an army to finish off enemy units. Abstractly speaking, Forcefields are short ranged spells that need an already powerful army beside it in order for it to work. Which is about as "OP" as medivac heals. Its annoying because of how helpless you feel when it works, and how stupid your opponent looks when it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground where forcefields simply does it job aptly. Either it lands perfectly, and you're screwed or they miss and its as if they just burned the mana for no reason what so ever.
But forcefields dont allow you to retreat or interact with it at all. Atleast with plague your 100% free about retreating or repositioning so in a sense it does not stop your interaction. With FFs, you normally can't do any of those.
Thats the same feeling I get too with regards to your last statement. But with plague its not. Your not screwed. Think we've gone a little off topic but I think the main point was that fundamentally in all aspects there are gnarling issues with this game ,its a fact but most importantly it can be improved to be better e.g. the OP.
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On November 05 2013 08:07 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 08:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 07:35 YyapSsap wrote:On November 05 2013 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
There's more you can do to mitigate damage of the likes of storm post-cast
EMP you have the ghost/Templar dance which is cool.
I do like Terrans using medivac pickups to get out of forcefields, would be nice if other races could do things like that reliably. Burrow micro being more responsive would be cool, but problematic given how much Protoss is currently balanced around the spell.
Brood War has spells that are just as potent, in fact some are stronger. The lack of smart cast + BW games not being as dependent on one or two big engagements make this less apparent. I think the problem is sexiness. Well placed storms in BW and SC2 shreds terran bio to shreds. And its cool *why* they die. Its someone summoning lightning from their mind burning the flesh of all his enemies. Forcefields are bumps on the ground. Both are powerful effects that, when used properly, is powerful. Storm requires spread out templars hitting from multiple spots using observers as spotters. They are used to soften bio compositions and tax medivac healing. Forcefields are close range spells that requires a strong army supporting sentries in order to engage in a brawl with the enemy composition. Its a bit too thuggish for a spellcaster in my book. If I delve in further, there is a big fundamental difference in spell casters from SC:BW and SC2. In SC2, the emphasis is placed on stopping a spell from being cast because once cast would normally result in a huge advantage that could result in the opposing army being disintegrated in seconds. Now why is the case? because the abilities in question often have no interaction with the opposing player, as in once cast theres nothing you can do about except bracing for impact. Examples = 1) WoL Fungals where if you dont kill the infestor, your entire army might be stunned/damaged and literallly just die without being able to do anything. 2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories. 3) FFs where if you can't bait the spells or kill the sentries, your enitre main might get destoryed as the ramp is blocked forever or generally it just kills off any interactions with the opposing units as they are stuck helplessly while being killed. This is why still do this day people get frustrated. Over the years, players have found ways to neutralise this threat with more precision and variety but at the end of the day, if it didn't get neutralised the end result will always be the same. In SC:BW, the emphasis was placed on troops instead of the abilities. Why? no smart cast i.e. using casters was always going to be difficult during battle. Casters were hard to access (very high in the tech tree), fagile to the nth degree (I think ghosts had 45hp, and HTs were 40/40 - correct me if I am wrong) and the signature abilities had to be researched. So only in the late mid/late game do we see casters start appearing on the field. Then there was the abilities themselves. Lets look at the signature spells and its fundamental difference to the SC2 ones. Plague = does not kill units but put them down to 1hp. Just because you got plagued does not mean you lose or suddenly the zerg gets an upper hand. It gives you the opposing player to save your forces because it takes time for the plague to put you down to 1hp. Ensare = Slows any units to a crawl within an AOE. Thats it. Need a queen which doesn't do much outside of perhaps broodlings and slowly a pack of units while being a costly unit. Storm = kills units very fast within the aoe but gives time to get out of the spell. You can move out of the storms. EMP = drains energy but you need science vessels which can't directly kill anything other than via irradiate (vs biological units but this is over a long period time kill spell which sometimes works against you e.g. ultralisk eraser). Maelstorm = stuns only biological units but deals no damage. To use maelstorms and also feedbacks, you need a series of tech structures, two DTs, research the ability and then wait enough energy. DTs themselves don't deal any damage. Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc). Stasis Field = Freezes the units but units frozen cannot be damaged. Its an expensive spell that doesn't sometimes result in what you want and work against you. All these abilities gives the opposing player to interact after the spell has been cast outside of a few abilities such as stasis field or lockdown. However those few abilities that do exhibit the SC2 problem are downright hard to gain access in terms of time/resources and limited in what they do primarily because they don't deal the damage so there is no point rushing to these spells. So a combination of somewhat imba spells balanced out by smart casting, resource/time heavy requirements to gain access to these spells, allowing the opposing player to interact with the spell after its been cast, spells that normally don't directly deal damage and if they did, they did over a long period of time.. Thats why in this particular game, casters or abilities were rarely frowned upon but memorable and at often times magnificent to spectate knowing how hard they were to use and rare they were. They aided the armies in battle not deciding fate of the battle. On a side note, I do somewhat miss lategame PvZ in BW. So much magicks and the theme of hightech aliens holding the zerg infestation at bay with everything they got. If you're looking for debate about spellcaster design, unit interface, and preference of player/spell interaction you won't get it from me since we'll already be in agreement. I'm just saying that Plague without an army to finish off enemy units is about as powerful as forcefields without an army to finish off enemy units. Abstractly speaking, Forcefields are short ranged spells that need an already powerful army beside it in order for it to work. Which is about as "OP" as medivac heals. Its annoying because of how helpless you feel when it works, and how stupid your opponent looks when it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground where forcefields simply does it job aptly. Either it lands perfectly, and you're screwed or they miss and its as if they just burned the mana for no reason what so ever. But forcefields dont allow you to retreat or interact with it at all. Atleast with plague your 100% free about retreating or repositioning so in a sense it does not stop your interaction. With FFs, you normally can't do any of those. Thats the same feeling I get too with regards to your last statement. But with plague its not. Your not screwed. Think we've gone a little off topic but I think the main point was that fundamentally in all aspects there are gnarling issues with this game ,its a fact but most importantly it can be improved to be better e.g. the OP.
We're in agreement then 
Or at least "in agreement" enough
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On November 05 2013 08:07 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 08:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 07:35 YyapSsap wrote:On November 05 2013 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
There's more you can do to mitigate damage of the likes of storm post-cast
EMP you have the ghost/Templar dance which is cool.
I do like Terrans using medivac pickups to get out of forcefields, would be nice if other races could do things like that reliably. Burrow micro being more responsive would be cool, but problematic given how much Protoss is currently balanced around the spell.
Brood War has spells that are just as potent, in fact some are stronger. The lack of smart cast + BW games not being as dependent on one or two big engagements make this less apparent. I think the problem is sexiness. Well placed storms in BW and SC2 shreds terran bio to shreds. And its cool *why* they die. Its someone summoning lightning from their mind burning the flesh of all his enemies. Forcefields are bumps on the ground. Both are powerful effects that, when used properly, is powerful. Storm requires spread out templars hitting from multiple spots using observers as spotters. They are used to soften bio compositions and tax medivac healing. Forcefields are close range spells that requires a strong army supporting sentries in order to engage in a brawl with the enemy composition. Its a bit too thuggish for a spellcaster in my book. If I delve in further, there is a big fundamental difference in spell casters from SC:BW and SC2. In SC2, the emphasis is placed on stopping a spell from being cast because once cast would normally result in a huge advantage that could result in the opposing army being disintegrated in seconds. Now why is the case? because the abilities in question often have no interaction with the opposing player, as in once cast theres nothing you can do about except bracing for impact. Examples = 1) WoL Fungals where if you dont kill the infestor, your entire army might be stunned/damaged and literallly just die without being able to do anything. 2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories. 3) FFs where if you can't bait the spells or kill the sentries, your enitre main might get destoryed as the ramp is blocked forever or generally it just kills off any interactions with the opposing units as they are stuck helplessly while being killed. This is why still do this day people get frustrated. Over the years, players have found ways to neutralise this threat with more precision and variety but at the end of the day, if it didn't get neutralised the end result will always be the same. In SC:BW, the emphasis was placed on troops instead of the abilities. Why? no smart cast i.e. using casters was always going to be difficult during battle. Casters were hard to access (very high in the tech tree), fagile to the nth degree (I think ghosts had 45hp, and HTs were 40/40 - correct me if I am wrong) and the signature abilities had to be researched. So only in the late mid/late game do we see casters start appearing on the field. Then there was the abilities themselves. Lets look at the signature spells and its fundamental difference to the SC2 ones. Plague = does not kill units but put them down to 1hp. Just because you got plagued does not mean you lose or suddenly the zerg gets an upper hand. It gives you the opposing player to save your forces because it takes time for the plague to put you down to 1hp. Ensare = Slows any units to a crawl within an AOE. Thats it. Need a queen which doesn't do much outside of perhaps broodlings and slowly a pack of units while being a costly unit. Storm = kills units very fast within the aoe but gives time to get out of the spell. You can move out of the storms. EMP = drains energy but you need science vessels which can't directly kill anything other than via irradiate (vs biological units but this is over a long period time kill spell which sometimes works against you e.g. ultralisk eraser). Maelstorm = stuns only biological units but deals no damage. To use maelstorms and also feedbacks, you need a series of tech structures, two DTs, research the ability and then wait enough energy. DTs themselves don't deal any damage. Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc). Stasis Field = Freezes the units but units frozen cannot be damaged. Its an expensive spell that doesn't sometimes result in what you want and work against you. All these abilities gives the opposing player to interact after the spell has been cast outside of a few abilities such as stasis field or lockdown. However those few abilities that do exhibit the SC2 problem are downright hard to gain access in terms of time/resources and limited in what they do primarily because they don't deal the damage so there is no point rushing to these spells. So a combination of somewhat imba spells balanced out by smart casting, resource/time heavy requirements to gain access to these spells, allowing the opposing player to interact with the spell after its been cast, spells that normally don't directly deal damage and if they did, they did over a long period of time.. Thats why in this particular game, casters or abilities were rarely frowned upon but memorable and at often times magnificent to spectate knowing how hard they were to use and rare they were. They aided the armies in battle not deciding fate of the battle. On a side note, I do somewhat miss lategame PvZ in BW. So much magicks and the theme of hightech aliens holding the zerg infestation at bay with everything they got. If you're looking for debate about spellcaster design, unit interface, and preference of player/spell interaction you won't get it from me since we'll already be in agreement. I'm just saying that Plague without an army to finish off enemy units is about as powerful as forcefields without an army to finish off enemy units. Abstractly speaking, Forcefields are short ranged spells that need an already powerful army beside it in order for it to work. Which is about as "OP" as medivac heals. Its annoying because of how helpless you feel when it works, and how stupid your opponent looks when it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground where forcefields simply does it job aptly. Either it lands perfectly, and you're screwed or they miss and its as if they just burned the mana for no reason what so ever. But forcefields dont allow you to retreat or interact with it at all. Atleast with plague your 100% free about retreating or repositioning so in a sense it does not stop your interaction. With FFs, you normally can't do any of those. Thats the same feeling I get too with regards to your last statement. But with plague its not. Your not screwed. Think we've gone a little off topic but I think the main point was that fundamentally in all aspects there are gnarling issues with this game ,its a fact but most importantly it can be improved to be better e.g. the OP.
You can also use restoration on plagued units (which is good for science vessels and battle cruisers). And you can wait for the plague to run out, and then heal your biological units. And you can repair mechanical units with SCV's once the plague has worn off (I've seen HiyA do it. It's good).
So if you get hit by a plague, it can either lead to your entire army dying, if he manages to catch your army, or it can lead to your units being weaker temporarily, until they get healed, giving your opponent momentum and breathing room, but not killing you completely. It's very scalar.
And you can hunt defilers with science vessels (which he can protect with scourge, which you can deal with by sending forward a small amount of marines)
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On November 05 2013 07:35 YyapSsap wrote:
2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories.
Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc).
It's interesting, but I've never thought about how big a change moving EMP to the Ghost was. Now the unit with EMP, arguably the most powerful spell versus Protoss, is built from the barracks, doesn't need to be researched, can be cast by a cloaked unit, and only needs one tech building to produce. In BW the EMP unit was a bit, fat, flying thing that couldn't cloak and doubled as your detector unit. Ghosts with EMP are absurdly good compared to their BW counterparts. I mean, who actually built ghosts in BW?
The battle between Ghosts and HTs in TvP (or the dance, if you will) is usually won by ghosts for a few reasons:
#1: They can cloak.
#2: They can spam their ability over a wide area (non-specific target)
#3: Their counter (feedback) pretty much negates its own use because of its mana cost. You cast feedback to prevent getting EMP'd so you can cast storm, but once you've done that you can't cast storm anyway because you're out of mana. It's a silly situation, and it's why you rarely see high level protoss even try to EMP, it's better to just hold back your HTs and bring them in after the fact to hopefully cast a few storms to keep your army from dying.
#4: Did I mention EMP does more damage than storm and cannot be dodged? I don't think it's OP, but it is a very, very strong ability, much more in SC2 than BW.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
On November 05 2013 08:33 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 07:35 YyapSsap wrote:
2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories.
Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc).
It's interesting, but I've never thought about how big a change moving EMP to the Ghost was. Now the unit with EMP, arguably the most powerful spell versus Protoss, is built from the barracks, doesn't need to be researched, can be cast by a cloaked unit, and only needs one tech building to produce. In BW the EMP unit was a bit, fat, flying thing that couldn't cloak and doubled as your detector unit. Ghosts with EMP are absurdly good compared to their BW counterparts. I mean, who actually built ghosts in BW? The battle between Ghosts and HTs in TvP (or the dance, if you will) is usually won by ghosts for a few reasons: #1: They can cloak. #2: They can spam their ability over a wide area (non-specific target) #3: Their counter (feedback) pretty much negates its own use because of its mana cost. You cast feedback to prevent getting EMP'd so you can cast storm, but once you've done that you can't cast storm anyway because you're out of mana. It's a silly situation, and it's why you rarely see high level protoss even try to EMP, it's better to just hold back your HTs and bring them in after the fact to hopefully cast a few storms to keep your army from dying. #4: Did I mention EMP does more damage than storm and cannot be dodged? I don't think it's OP, but it is a very, very strong ability, much more in SC2 than BW.
Usually won by the ghosts?
As in you kill 80% of HTs energy but you missed two of them so they kill your bio regardless
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On November 05 2013 08:30 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 08:07 YyapSsap wrote:On November 05 2013 08:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 07:35 YyapSsap wrote:On November 05 2013 02:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On November 05 2013 01:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
There's more you can do to mitigate damage of the likes of storm post-cast
EMP you have the ghost/Templar dance which is cool.
I do like Terrans using medivac pickups to get out of forcefields, would be nice if other races could do things like that reliably. Burrow micro being more responsive would be cool, but problematic given how much Protoss is currently balanced around the spell.
Brood War has spells that are just as potent, in fact some are stronger. The lack of smart cast + BW games not being as dependent on one or two big engagements make this less apparent. I think the problem is sexiness. Well placed storms in BW and SC2 shreds terran bio to shreds. And its cool *why* they die. Its someone summoning lightning from their mind burning the flesh of all his enemies. Forcefields are bumps on the ground. Both are powerful effects that, when used properly, is powerful. Storm requires spread out templars hitting from multiple spots using observers as spotters. They are used to soften bio compositions and tax medivac healing. Forcefields are close range spells that requires a strong army supporting sentries in order to engage in a brawl with the enemy composition. Its a bit too thuggish for a spellcaster in my book. If I delve in further, there is a big fundamental difference in spell casters from SC:BW and SC2. In SC2, the emphasis is placed on stopping a spell from being cast because once cast would normally result in a huge advantage that could result in the opposing army being disintegrated in seconds. Now why is the case? because the abilities in question often have no interaction with the opposing player, as in once cast theres nothing you can do about except bracing for impact. Examples = 1) WoL Fungals where if you dont kill the infestor, your entire army might be stunned/damaged and literallly just die without being able to do anything. 2) Storms vs Snipe/EMP (Ghosts vs HTs) where if the ghosts kill off the HTs or neutralises them the advantage shifts to the Terran massively where as the opposite occurs if the ghosts fail this mission. The consequences of not neutralising the opponent casters often result in lopsided victories. 3) FFs where if you can't bait the spells or kill the sentries, your enitre main might get destoryed as the ramp is blocked forever or generally it just kills off any interactions with the opposing units as they are stuck helplessly while being killed. This is why still do this day people get frustrated. Over the years, players have found ways to neutralise this threat with more precision and variety but at the end of the day, if it didn't get neutralised the end result will always be the same. In SC:BW, the emphasis was placed on troops instead of the abilities. Why? no smart cast i.e. using casters was always going to be difficult during battle. Casters were hard to access (very high in the tech tree), fagile to the nth degree (I think ghosts had 45hp, and HTs were 40/40 - correct me if I am wrong) and the signature abilities had to be researched. So only in the late mid/late game do we see casters start appearing on the field. Then there was the abilities themselves. Lets look at the signature spells and its fundamental difference to the SC2 ones. Plague = does not kill units but put them down to 1hp. Just because you got plagued does not mean you lose or suddenly the zerg gets an upper hand. It gives you the opposing player to save your forces because it takes time for the plague to put you down to 1hp. Ensare = Slows any units to a crawl within an AOE. Thats it. Need a queen which doesn't do much outside of perhaps broodlings and slowly a pack of units while being a costly unit. Storm = kills units very fast within the aoe but gives time to get out of the spell. You can move out of the storms. EMP = drains energy but you need science vessels which can't directly kill anything other than via irradiate (vs biological units but this is over a long period time kill spell which sometimes works against you e.g. ultralisk eraser). Maelstorm = stuns only biological units but deals no damage. To use maelstorms and also feedbacks, you need a series of tech structures, two DTs, research the ability and then wait enough energy. DTs themselves don't deal any damage. Lockdown = stuns a mechanical unit for a long time. Ghosts are fagile, requires lots of tech buildings and addon (there are no tech labs or reactors so this addon is specifically for the ghost) and then requires upgrades to even make it useful (researching the ability, cloak, ghost range etc). Stasis Field = Freezes the units but units frozen cannot be damaged. Its an expensive spell that doesn't sometimes result in what you want and work against you. All these abilities gives the opposing player to interact after the spell has been cast outside of a few abilities such as stasis field or lockdown. However those few abilities that do exhibit the SC2 problem are downright hard to gain access in terms of time/resources and limited in what they do primarily because they don't deal the damage so there is no point rushing to these spells. So a combination of somewhat imba spells balanced out by smart casting, resource/time heavy requirements to gain access to these spells, allowing the opposing player to interact with the spell after its been cast, spells that normally don't directly deal damage and if they did, they did over a long period of time.. Thats why in this particular game, casters or abilities were rarely frowned upon but memorable and at often times magnificent to spectate knowing how hard they were to use and rare they were. They aided the armies in battle not deciding fate of the battle. On a side note, I do somewhat miss lategame PvZ in BW. So much magicks and the theme of hightech aliens holding the zerg infestation at bay with everything they got. If you're looking for debate about spellcaster design, unit interface, and preference of player/spell interaction you won't get it from me since we'll already be in agreement. I'm just saying that Plague without an army to finish off enemy units is about as powerful as forcefields without an army to finish off enemy units. Abstractly speaking, Forcefields are short ranged spells that need an already powerful army beside it in order for it to work. Which is about as "OP" as medivac heals. Its annoying because of how helpless you feel when it works, and how stupid your opponent looks when it doesn't. There isn't a middle ground where forcefields simply does it job aptly. Either it lands perfectly, and you're screwed or they miss and its as if they just burned the mana for no reason what so ever. But forcefields dont allow you to retreat or interact with it at all. Atleast with plague your 100% free about retreating or repositioning so in a sense it does not stop your interaction. With FFs, you normally can't do any of those. Thats the same feeling I get too with regards to your last statement. But with plague its not. Your not screwed. Think we've gone a little off topic but I think the main point was that fundamentally in all aspects there are gnarling issues with this game ,its a fact but most importantly it can be improved to be better e.g. the OP. You can also use restoration on plagued units (which is good for science vessels and battle cruisers). And you can wait for the plague to run out, and then heal your biological units. And you can repair mechanical units with SCV's once the plague has worn off (I've seen HiyA do it. It's good). So if you get hit by a plague, it can either lead to your entire army dying, if he manages to catch your army, or it can lead to your units being weaker temporarily, until they get healed, giving your opponent momentum and breathing room, but not killing you completely. It's very scalar. And you can hunt defilers with science vessels (which he can protect with scourge, which you can deal with by sending forward a small amount of marines)
I see you've expanded further on the depth that was defilers and TvZ. The matchup was beautiful and I quote you because it already shows just how deep that matchup was (how every unit intervened deeply into that matchup) something thats lacking in SC2.
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Reaver attacks and dragoons were not really consistent at all
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On November 05 2013 07:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
Roach wars do factor in a form of defender's advantage you're right there, but it's almost wholly to do with reinforcement distances at work.
There are a lot of cool things in SC2 so shitting on the game in its entirety isn't necessarily productive. Look at things that are skillful, interesting unit interactions and try to make more of that possible.
I love the Phoenix for example, and it's quite thread relevant I guess in that Blizz gave it that ez mode moving shot.
That unit by design still suffocate from the dearth of unit interaction. In BW, Corsair's D-web can easily micro'd out of tough position while in its counterpart, there really is nothing to be to counteract the spell. This create a lack of uncertain tension between fights and harassment, a portion that defined BW greatness is that w/e the enemy strikes you with, you can always funnel your way to preclude it in innovative fashion. In SC2, once something is thrown in your face, you have little time to react. The entire game is based upon the specific set up for those crucial battles.
Again, simply drawing parallels between the game.
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I have found this very interesting:
I am a SC2 fan since the Beta, but never played BW. We often hear about BW, but today one reason why people still talk about BW was explained and demonstrated.
A lot of those changes make a lot of sense. The argument about units being constant in a e-sports game should be taken into very high consideration.
Visually, I liked a lot how the Starbow tanks looked. They look so much more realistic when they don't do a 180 on the ground each time. I'd like to see that on Immortals and collosus too. Or are they afraid to trip on a cliff while walking backwards ? 
Some detractors could argue that, as you have shown with tanks VS zealots, this changes the capacities of units, and thus, balance. Well, if we have to change some numbers to make the game better, so be it. Would be stupid to prevent a step foward for that balance reason.
Was not the probe micro exagerated in the video ? I feel like you have shown the worse case scenario, no ?
First interesting tought in a few lines: The probe Micro in BW makes the attack animation almost invisible. This would have to be corrected in order to make the game still easy to follow.
I had the same tought about air unit packs: No matter how much better it is to put them exactly on the same spot, the natural separation in SC2 makes it visually more interesting or, at least, you have more feedback on the numbers and state of the mutas. Could there be a solution to this ? A hybrid system where you can pack the units as tight as you want, but you know by some other mean (without selection) how much there is in the pack ?
Thanks for your work. Do you believe if they made this a priority in the expansion it could be done, or from what you have seen those ''hard coded'' difficulties would need a new game altogheter ?
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On November 02 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 04:37 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:On November 02 2013 01:16 fighter2_40 wrote:
Argument for why these changes are just good for SC2 even without Broodwar context:
To address this topic, we first have to examine why people watch sports ie. other people playing games, in the first place. The fans want the thrill of seeing somebody else do what they themselves cannot do. Now this does not necessarily mean the score screen. Fans do not get excited over team X beating team Y if they don't see the action that takes place.
In starcraft 2, there surely is a large skill gap between the professional players that we watch, and the fans sitting at home. However, I would say this inequality presents itself through the course of the game as a whole whether it be by better macro, decision making, or unit composition. Very rarely is it through a "move" or a skill shot.
Similarly in sports, the game becomes way more involved for the fans when their favorite player performs exceptional athletic movements that no ordinary human can do. Although it is satisfying for your team to win, it's only time and time again exciting if we see what the skill gap is, which in my opinion is best demonstrated through brief moments of micro.
I'm not saying SC2 doesn't have micro. It does. However, the micro tricks you can do in SC2 are too easy to execute. The fact that many diamond and masters players can do all the micro steps that the pros do within a custom map shows that it's not the micro itself that is a reflection of the skill gap, but the overall picture, which has more to do with things that we cannot see as viewers.
So in conclusion, although I believe Lalush's proposed changes will make the game more dynamic, we need to be sure that if they do enter the game (which I doubt given blizzards track record), that these new features of units can only be exploited given extreme dexterity and apm, which will highlight the gap between pro players and casuals or even lesser pro players. If it's so easy how come we don't see more MarineKings, MVPs, and all of the zerg and protoss players that have amazing micro? If you want proof of this watch the automation (I probably spelled it incorrectly but oh well) bot videos. You can still do amazing things in SC2 micro wise that not anyone has done yet that are a far cry from easy. I think that most that are complaining are still stuck on BW and it's out dated engine that requires you to click a bunch of times just to get a worker mining. Look, if you're going to be comparing micro with what that 2-3 year old video showed, you don't really understand what people here really want. From what I understand, and at least from my PoV, adding more micro to something is never bad because it adds more options for the better (read: mechanically better) player to come back and win in places they should not. We are looking at marine splits and honestly, they're probably not going to get that much better. Watch any top level pro Terran and their splits and it's pretty much as good as you're going to get. But what else is there? The problem here is that so many people are on polar sides. You either want changes, badly - or you think that anything that resembles BW is bad so therefore SC2 is perfect the way it is. Realistically, we've already seen what happens when the scene stagnates, and it can stagnate so easily because of BAD DESIGN and POOR SKILL SCALING.
Well to fix this "problem" all that Blizzard has to do is add more ability's to each unit even if they are minor ability's.
Also, I disagree with marine splitting being as good as it's ever going to get. If this was the case we would have automon like bot marine split micro where players are stutter stepping near perfectly, while splitting perfectly, while macroing perfectly.
I have yet to see a single player able to pull off near perfect micro while macroing. Also, I have yet to see a terran utilize drop ship pickup while splitting WHILE stutter stepping perfectly.......after Terran players have that high level of micro than we could even see Ravens being used simontaniously while stutter stepping, splitting, medivac microing, and using HSM, after that we could see even more and more micro....it's basically unlimited as it is.
To say that the cap has been reached when it comes to micro in SC2 is ignorant in my opinion.
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On November 05 2013 14:47 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On November 02 2013 04:37 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:On November 02 2013 01:16 fighter2_40 wrote:
Argument for why these changes are just good for SC2 even without Broodwar context:
To address this topic, we first have to examine why people watch sports ie. other people playing games, in the first place. The fans want the thrill of seeing somebody else do what they themselves cannot do. Now this does not necessarily mean the score screen. Fans do not get excited over team X beating team Y if they don't see the action that takes place.
In starcraft 2, there surely is a large skill gap between the professional players that we watch, and the fans sitting at home. However, I would say this inequality presents itself through the course of the game as a whole whether it be by better macro, decision making, or unit composition. Very rarely is it through a "move" or a skill shot.
Similarly in sports, the game becomes way more involved for the fans when their favorite player performs exceptional athletic movements that no ordinary human can do. Although it is satisfying for your team to win, it's only time and time again exciting if we see what the skill gap is, which in my opinion is best demonstrated through brief moments of micro.
I'm not saying SC2 doesn't have micro. It does. However, the micro tricks you can do in SC2 are too easy to execute. The fact that many diamond and masters players can do all the micro steps that the pros do within a custom map shows that it's not the micro itself that is a reflection of the skill gap, but the overall picture, which has more to do with things that we cannot see as viewers.
So in conclusion, although I believe Lalush's proposed changes will make the game more dynamic, we need to be sure that if they do enter the game (which I doubt given blizzards track record), that these new features of units can only be exploited given extreme dexterity and apm, which will highlight the gap between pro players and casuals or even lesser pro players. If it's so easy how come we don't see more MarineKings, MVPs, and all of the zerg and protoss players that have amazing micro? If you want proof of this watch the automation (I probably spelled it incorrectly but oh well) bot videos. You can still do amazing things in SC2 micro wise that not anyone has done yet that are a far cry from easy. I think that most that are complaining are still stuck on BW and it's out dated engine that requires you to click a bunch of times just to get a worker mining. Look, if you're going to be comparing micro with what that 2-3 year old video showed, you don't really understand what people here really want. From what I understand, and at least from my PoV, adding more micro to something is never bad because it adds more options for the better (read: mechanically better) player to come back and win in places they should not. We are looking at marine splits and honestly, they're probably not going to get that much better. Watch any top level pro Terran and their splits and it's pretty much as good as you're going to get. But what else is there? The problem here is that so many people are on polar sides. You either want changes, badly - or you think that anything that resembles BW is bad so therefore SC2 is perfect the way it is. Realistically, we've already seen what happens when the scene stagnates, and it can stagnate so easily because of BAD DESIGN and POOR SKILL SCALING. Well to fix this "problem" all that Blizzard has to do is add more ability's to each unit even if they are minor ability's. Also, I disagree with marine splitting being as good as it's ever going to get. If this was the case we would have automon like bot marine split micro where players are stutter stepping near perfectly, while splitting perfectly, while macroing perfectly. I have yet to see a single player able to pull off near perfect micro while macroing. Also, I have yet to see a terran utilize drop ship pickup while splitting WHILE stutter stepping perfectly.......after Terran players have that high level of micro than we could even see Ravens being used simontaniously while stutter stepping, splitting, medivac microing, and using HSM, after that we could see even more and more micro....it's basically unlimited as it is. To say that the cap has been reached when it comes to micro in SC2 is ignorant in my opinion.
Players aren't bots and won't magically discover 5000 more apm. You can still improve with your micro as a terran, but never to anywhere close to bot level.
It would be like inventing a robot that could easily hog the ball in football using a cage and machine gun fire and then saying that this represents the skill cap for football and that the players aren't anywhere close.
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Players aren't bots and won't magically discover 5000 more apm. You can still improve with your micro as a terran, but never to anywhere close to bot level.
It would be like inventing a robot that could easily hog the ball in football using a cage and machine gun fire and then saying that this represents the skill cap for football and that the players aren't anywhere close.
It shows that there is no physical 'skill ceiling' though.
I find that Marine splitting is a lot more reactive micro and as so is a lot more impressive than that just knowing the timing of all attacks and doing robot kiting.
What makes Warcraft 3 the ultimate micro game, is the amount of active things you need to do in responds to the other player. Burrow Crypt Fiends out of Ensnare, or Kodo Consume, flight form Talons to avoid Shockwave and these sorts, while you still need to keep a tab on keeping the crowd control up on heavy hitters and so. Dispel vs Spell activation, the quicker the Dispel the better.
The non-consistency of units, makes it harder, it's a lot harder to kite Marine/Marauder, than just Marines. Full army engagements requires a lot more focus, it would be bad if you could have an entire Protoss army and just kite back with all units firing perfectly. Rather that you need to leave some be, which requires a lot of de-selecting and rather that you try to individually kite Stalkers and individually kite Colossus, doing so really fast that it happens simultaneously, than just selecting both groups and do a normal kite.
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EPT
