On November 02 2013 06:14 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
On November 02 2013 04:37 SjPhotoGrapher wrote:
On November 02 2013 01:16 fighter2_40 wrote: Argument for why these changes are just good for SC2 even without Broodwar context:
To address this topic, we first have to examine why people watch sports ie. other people playing games, in the first place. The fans want the thrill of seeing somebody else do what they themselves cannot do. Now this does not necessarily mean the score screen. Fans do not get excited over team X beating team Y if they don't see the action that takes place.
In starcraft 2, there surely is a large skill gap between the professional players that we watch, and the fans sitting at home. However, I would say this inequality presents itself through the course of the game as a whole whether it be by better macro, decision making, or unit composition. Very rarely is it through a "move" or a skill shot.
Similarly in sports, the game becomes way more involved for the fans when their favorite player performs exceptional athletic movements that no ordinary human can do. Although it is satisfying for your team to win, it's only time and time again exciting if we see what the skill gap is, which in my opinion is best demonstrated through brief moments of micro.
I'm not saying SC2 doesn't have micro. It does. However, the micro tricks you can do in SC2 are too easy to execute. The fact that many diamond and masters players can do all the micro steps that the pros do within a custom map shows that it's not the micro itself that is a reflection of the skill gap, but the overall picture, which has more to do with things that we cannot see as viewers.
So in conclusion, although I believe Lalush's proposed changes will make the game more dynamic, we need to be sure that if they do enter the game (which I doubt given blizzards track record), that these new features of units can only be exploited given extreme dexterity and apm, which will highlight the gap between pro players and casuals or even lesser pro players.
If it's so easy how come we don't see more MarineKings, MVPs, and all of the zerg and protoss players that have amazing micro? If you want proof of this watch the automation (I probably spelled it incorrectly but oh well) bot videos.
You can still do amazing things in SC2 micro wise that not anyone has done yet that are a far cry from easy.
I think that most that are complaining are still stuck on BW and it's out dated engine that requires you to click a bunch of times just to get a worker mining.
In what conceivable universe will anyone ever be able to match Automaton 5000? It is an AI, a computer program that uses the full power of an electric brain that can react thousands if not millions of times faster than a human being can, even excluding the fact that it bypasses the clumsy mouse and keyboard interface to interact directly with the game. This "micro" you speak of might as well not even exist. We only even know it is possible because someone designed a computer program for it and even then no human being will ever do it.
Innovation's splits are actually really similar to it. They do not control each marine separately though, so that is.
No they are not. The bot is infinitely better than innovation.
The method is pretty much the same. Execution of a bot is ofc something like ~30 times better than Innovation's ofc.
What's confusing about this thread is why everything has to be extreme. Collosi can still suffer the delay but this maybe makes stalkers a lot more interesting. Hellions might be too ridiculous changed but tanks a lot cuter.
On November 02 2013 06:39 Sabu113 wrote: What's confusing about this thread is why everything has to be extreme. Collosi can still suffer the delay but this maybe makes stalkers a lot more interesting. Hellions might be too ridiculous changed but tanks a lot cuter.
Actually after reading original thread on the issue (yes, that one, you know what i am talking about) i am almost convinced some actually want replicated BW with minor enough changes. And tbh, implementing this alone will drag the game down that path, perhaps not instantly, but it shall.
The majority of microing in brood war was literally fighting against the A.I. trying to get in the proper position, working with multiple control groups to best engage the enemy or set up a defense. These example that are brought were barely used in BW. The only real examples are vultures, mutalisk stacking and reavers. Don't get me wrong BW is the better game and especially during battles, but with no limit on the control groups these micro changes would be pretty pointless and lower the skill ceiling, since everyone would have to relearn everything.
Obviously there are some pretty boring units in SC2 micro wise, but people are far from perfect with them, (technically stutter stepping marines and marauders separately with control groups would give the most damage output rather than doing it at the same time.) Its too late to change SC2 imo its fine the way it is, but yeah make a ProMod and technically it will take more skill, but at what cost, and would it really be better?
On November 02 2013 07:03 Velouria wrote: The majority of microing in brood war was literally fighting against the A.I. trying to get in the proper position, working with multiple control groups to best engage the enemy or set up a defense. These example that are brought were barely used in BW. The only real examples are vultures, mutalisk stacking and reavers. Don't get me wrong BW is the better game and especially during battles, but with no limit on the control groups these micro changes would be pretty pointless and lower the skill ceiling, since everyone would have to relearn everything.
Obviously there are some pretty boring units in SC2 micro wise, but people are far from perfect with them, (technically stutter stepping marines and marauders separately with control groups would give the most damage output rather than doing it at the same time.) Its too late to change SC2 imo its fine the way it is, but yeah make a ProMod and technically it will take more skill, but at what cost, and would it really be better?
Hats off to LaLush and as a long time BW/SC2 fan i'm totally on board with bringing (back) more microing abilities into the game. Some of the points are very well put. I'm being selfish on this one but i don't need starcraft being a game for retards who can A-move.
On November 02 2013 07:03 Velouria wrote: The majority of microing in brood war was literally fighting against the A.I. trying to get in the proper position, working with multiple control groups to best engage the enemy or set up a defense. These example that are brought were barely used in BW. The only real examples are vultures, mutalisk stacking and reavers. Don't get me wrong BW is the better game and especially during battles, but with no limit on the control groups these micro changes would be pretty pointless and lower the skill ceiling, since everyone would have to relearn everything.
Obviously there are some pretty boring units in SC2 micro wise, but people are far from perfect with them, (technically stutter stepping marines and marauders separately with control groups would give the most damage output rather than doing it at the same time.) Its too late to change SC2 imo its fine the way it is, but yeah make a ProMod and technically it will take more skill, but at what cost, and would it really be better?
Soccer is a fight against the ball.
Why is this impossible? Stop! And this is relevant how? Besides soccer is literally one of the most boring sports to watch if you are not invested in a team. Great sport for every kid to play for sure, but jesus this has no relevance, I mean at least tell me something.
The definition of 'micro' is doing something that isn't automatically done by the AI. Do you realize that it is very possible to program perfect actions into the AI? Have no micromanagement tasks left at all? This sort of programming is used in all kinds of applications, from airplane flying to factory automation tasks to whatever.
Not in gaming. Games are created by introducing constraints to what can be done by the AI so there is something left for the player to do, for the express purpose of 'fun'. Taking away micro opportunities takes away from the 'fun'.
Why is this impossible?
not to mention this gem of a sentence:
'with no limit on the control groups these micro changes would be pretty pointless and lower the skill ceiling, since everyone would have to relearn everything'
introducing more micro opportunities will lower the skill ceiling of the game, heard it here first
On November 02 2013 07:03 Velouria wrote: The majority of microing in brood war was literally fighting against the A.I. trying to get in the proper position, working with multiple control groups to best engage the enemy or set up a defense. These example that are brought were barely used in BW. The only real examples are vultures, mutalisk stacking and reavers. Don't get me wrong BW is the better game and especially during battles, but with no limit on the control groups these micro changes would be pretty pointless and lower the skill ceiling, since everyone would have to relearn everything.
Obviously there are some pretty boring units in SC2 micro wise, but people are far from perfect with them, (technically stutter stepping marines and marauders separately with control groups would give the most damage output rather than doing it at the same time.) Its too late to change SC2 imo its fine the way it is, but yeah make a ProMod and technically it will take more skill, but at what cost, and would it really be better?
Soccer is a fight against the ball.
Why is this impossible? Stop! And this is relevant how? Besides soccer is literally one of the most boring sports to watch if you are not invested in a team. Great sport for every kid to play for sure, but jesus this has no relevance, I mean at least tell me something.
Basketball and hockey are similar in fashion if soccer isn't to your liking. Don't miss the point and try to nitpick.
On November 02 2013 07:03 Velouria wrote: The majority of microing in brood war was literally fighting against the A.I. trying to get in the proper position, working with multiple control groups to best engage the enemy or set up a defense. These example that are brought were barely used in BW. The only real examples are vultures, mutalisk stacking and reavers. Don't get me wrong BW is the better game and especially during battles, but with no limit on the control groups these micro changes would be pretty pointless and lower the skill ceiling, since everyone would have to relearn everything.
Obviously there are some pretty boring units in SC2 micro wise, but people are far from perfect with them, (technically stutter stepping marines and marauders separately with control groups would give the most damage output rather than doing it at the same time.) Its too late to change SC2 imo its fine the way it is, but yeah make a ProMod and technically it will take more skill, but at what cost, and would it really be better?
Soccer is a fight against the ball.
Why is this impossible? Stop! And this is relevant how? Besides soccer is literally one of the most boring sports to watch if you are not invested in a team. Great sport for every kid to play for sure, but jesus this has no relevance, I mean at least tell me something.
Basketball and hockey are similar in fashion if soccer isn't to your liking. Don't miss the point and try to nitpick.
Not trying to be a jerk, but there was no "point" to begin with. A one sentence post making a false equivalency comparison with a popular sport without explaining why it was relevant doesn't make much of a point. :|
On November 02 2013 02:48 phodacbiet wrote: Hopefully blizzard change something though. These changes, even if just a few, would be great for the game because it would increase the skill cap. At the highest level we need to know/see the pros do some super crazy human micro. While the godly decision level making of the pros is cool too, it gets boring after awhile because people want to see action, not "oh his ball moved up, oh now its down, oh its up again! Wow! Concave! Wow! Lazer!" Sc2 right now focuses way too much on the pre fight and once the fight start there is not much you can do to win if youre behind (unless you aren't too far behind). But let's be real here, blizzard will probably say something like "we won't do any of these changes because itll change too much of the game and its too late. Sorry please buy LoTV!"
A good example of this is how popular Dota 2 is right now. Dota is to a large extent about high-skill plays and teamfights, although hero positioning and out of fight decision-making is also very important. If Starcraft 2 had higher skillcaps on units, it would have a spectator appeal approaching Dota's in engagements while retaining the characteristics people like in rts games.
Dammit, misusage of word skill cap starts to annoy me. If there is a skillcap on a single unit, make 3 and attack in 3 different places. Bang, you suddenly increased skill cap. Not to mention, that Dota's engagements most of time are just either fakes either bunch of explosions with something dying.
The problem with that logic is attacking in different locations often isn't a good idea, because units are typically stronger in clumps than alone. I don't know what you mean about Dota engagements...
1. 3 pronged banshee harass by Maru does not agree. And yes, small groups work too, as long as you do it as calculated risk and not go full base race with no army. 2. Nvm.
Yes, of course there are games where a player micros attacking units in 3 different places at once. I think if you look at the data though, it's pretty uncommon. Note I said "often isn't," not "never is." Pointing out that it happens sometimes and with some players doesn't really do anything to disprove what I'm saying...
Great video on micro. I personally really like this idea mainly because of how annoying starcraft 2 currently rewards players with very little micro. I think if the game gets incorporates more micro-able units, it will not only filter out true talented players, but also a better viewing experience for the audience.
On November 02 2013 07:45 Taguchi wrote: The definition of 'micro' is doing something that isn't automatically done by the AI. Do you realize that it is very possible to program perfect actions into the AI? Have no micromanagement tasks left at all? This sort of programming is used in all kinds of applications, from airplane flying to factory automation tasks to whatever.
Not in gaming. Games are created by introducing constraints to what can be done by the AI so there is something left for the player to do, for the express purpose of 'fun'. Taking away micro opportunities takes away from the 'fun'.
'with no limit on the control groups these micro changes would be pretty pointless and lower the skill ceiling, since everyone would have to relearn everything'
introducing more micro opportunities will lower the skill ceiling of the game, heard it here first
Really. No really? Yes it would lower the skill ceiling AT FIRST. Duh. Everyone would be on a level playing field trying to RE micro everything. Why dont you just go and elevate IdrA to messiah status since he has since the beginning prophesied "This game sucks and takes no skill."
If you haven't noticed there are lots of people in this thread who like playing SC2 the way it is. These passive aggressive threads should really stop beating around the bush and go spend that time and effort making SC2ProMod where everyone can be happy on both sides. And the rest of us "casual" players god forbid can play SC2 the way it was meant be played. Fast and Furious.
Or you know go play BW and see who can click the fastest. + Show Spoiler +
This was a joke pointing to the fact that it wasnt a fact just like 90% of the bullshit thrown at SC2.
Ok, I'll clear that up for you since apparently we're talking about different things.
Skill ceiling refers to the game's potential and does not change whether the game is being played by toddlers or progamers. It's an inherent part of the game. The community can only discover it, not change it.
Skill level, which is what you've been talking about (hopefully) is the actual level the game is played at, and would naturally suffer from drastic changes to the game's environment, the player pool size from which superior talents are drawn from etc.
It make me really sad to see the amont of works you did and what others tried too whilst Blizzard just don't care... Community is just repeating the same things better and better over years but never you will see Blizzard making some big changes like these. It's just a no end conversation in the waiting of a better day that will never append.
The only chance you have to see Blizzard making a big move like this one is by pressuring them. The progamer community , with the approbation of us, have to work together with a huge amont of constant publicity and if it don't produce some thing concret, just do an ultimatum ! There are so many ideas to pressure them : TL posts, Bnet posts, youtube, in programers interviews and especialy in big events, serious talk show with many known players promoted by the community (TL,bnet?), a big petition broadcasted where we can see a massive amont of programers signing it, a big meeting of many noticiable community members at the enter of the Blizzard HeadQuarter with big banners and customs' t-shirt, streamers making publicity by speaking about it and adding a banner in it to support this initiative, a massive promoted letter with many progamer signature to blizzard, a special tag and a groupe in game to spread the word, a special event where progamers promote a mod using very good idea... Well, i think that's i'm doing the same things than all of you... it will never append.
On November 02 2013 08:33 Taguchi wrote: Ok, I'll clear that up for you since apparently we're talking about different things.
Skill ceiling refers to the game's potential and does not change whether the game is being played by toddlers or progamers. It's an inherent part of the game. The community can only discover it, not change it.
Skill level, which is what you've been talking about (hopefully) is the actual level the game is played at, and would naturally suffer from drastic changes to the game's environment, the player pool size from which superior talents are drawn from etc.
Did that clear things up a bit?
Point taken I'll never bother you again or anyone bye. Someone ban me.
EPT
