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Encouraging Terran to build Turrets is just a ridiculous thing.. Can't believe that people are having discussions upon it.. 
First of all - say that Terran starts it's push.. There's a good chance that a group of Lings will see the "pushout" on time, ..
Then you start making a few Spines at the nat/3rd area, or at least at the 3rd.. (making sure you inject larvae is the hard part though ), then AGAIN - you send in few more lings - or maybe an overlord/overseer - to confirm that the push is comming.. Then you start making some Banelings..
And when the push finally arrives - you'll probably have like at least 70% done defences and have to buy just a little more time (usually done with the Queens), or if the map is big enough or it's a cross-spawn - then they're probably done already..
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With Terran - that's just impossible - if Zerg pushes out - it will arrive in your base in like 10-15 seconds.. That's hardly any time to make your defences work properly.. Maybe you'd have time to raise some depots, start building some wall-off extra buildings and start rallying some of your army back home.. And even if you see it on time - Zerg might just Baneling-bust the whole thing and supply-block you nasty..
So there's a CORE difference.. Turrets just can't be built.. You have to pre-plan them.. And when we see some extra Terran player have the Thors and/or Turrets right on time - then that's because of "zillion games played experiences", and not because of a simple scouting-info within the game..
You can't build the Turrets on time REACTIVELY, which is the core difference of "smart investing" in static defense vs playing a tower-defense game..
And even in those you have to "see" the wave..
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On October 16 2013 07:19 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 06:42 sitromit wrote:
Half of top 16 WCS is Terran. Top 3 TLPD Elo is Terran. 6 out of top 10 in Aligulac is Terran. 4 out of 5 most recent Premiere event winners are Terran. As usual people can't see the forest for the trees. Half of Blizzcon will be Terran, yes, but how is that relevant to what happens now when some of the points were scored long ago, either before the Hellbat nerf or simply before Protoss and Zerg developed their play against Terran? Quoting TLPD/Aligulac is hilarious considering such ratings regularly deliver aberrations such as HeroMarine being above Flash or LucifroN rated higher than Soulkey. Tournament winners say nothing; Terran was under-represented in WCS Europe in the RO8, and still the only Terran who made it there won. There were more top level Terrans in Dreamhack Bucharest, just like the Zerg line-up was stronger recently at IEM, etc. Now, since you seem to like this subject of Terran representation, how about the following questions? How many Terrans reached RO8 in Premier League this season? How many Terrans qualified in Challenger League this season? How many GM Terrans worldwide? How many Terrans in Master? Upon answering such things, you may discover that as usual, it's a small group of elite players still doing well (but for how long?) rather than the Terran race being successful as a whole. Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 07:09 havok55 wrote:
Its a change on a test map. If the nerf is not needed then it wont go live like all the other stuff that didnt go live. Do people not understand what test means? If the nerf is not needed, then why are they even testing it? And what makes you think that they will take the right decision anyway? Do people need to remind you how WoL ended?
Terran didn't dominate 1 season? Oh my god, sound the alarm bells!!!!!! I propose buffs across the board!
Meanwhile in the real world, Bio Mine is more than fine, as Gumiho quite aptly demonstrated yesterday, against a Zerg who managed to reach Hive and Ultralisks, with a large flock of Mutalisks.
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On October 16 2013 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:Encouraging Terran to build Turrets is just a ridiculous thing.. Can't believe that people are having discussions upon it.. First of all - say that Terran starts it's push.. There's a good chance that a group of Lings will see the "pushout" on time, .. Then you start making a few Spines at the nat/3rd area, or at least at the 3rd.. (making sure you inject larvae is the hard part though ), then AGAIN - you send in few more lings - or maybe an overlord/overseer - to confirm that the push is comming.. Then you start making some Banelings.. And when the push finally arrives - you'll probably have like at least 70% done defences and have to buy just a little more time (usually done with the Queens), or if the map is big enough or it's a cross-spawn - then they're probably done already.. ========================================================================== With Terran - that's just impossible - if Zerg pushes out - it will arrive in your base in like 10-15 seconds.. That's hardly any time to make your defences work properly.. Maybe you'd have time to raise some depots, start building some wall-off extra buildings and start rallying some of your army back home.. And even if you see it on time - Zerg might just Baneling-bust the whole thing and supply-block you nasty.. So there's a CORE difference.. Turrets just can't be built.. You have to pre-plan them.. And when we see some extra Terran player have the Thors and/or Turrets right on time - then that's because of "zillion games played experiences", and not because of a simple scouting-info within the game.. You can't build the Turrets on time REACTIVELY, which is the core difference of "smart investing" in static defense vs playing a tower-defense game.. And even in those you have to "see" the wave..
Or you make 1-2 every two minutes or so and have 5-10 by the 15 minute mark and your opponent doesn't even go Muta because wtf there's turrets...
You don't have to make turrets 10 at a time. 1 building a turret every other depot or so does it as well.
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On October 16 2013 07:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:Encouraging Terran to build Turrets is just a ridiculous thing.. Can't believe that people are having discussions upon it.. First of all - say that Terran starts it's push.. There's a good chance that a group of Lings will see the "pushout" on time, .. Then you start making a few Spines at the nat/3rd area, or at least at the 3rd.. (making sure you inject larvae is the hard part though ), then AGAIN - you send in few more lings - or maybe an overlord/overseer - to confirm that the push is comming.. Then you start making some Banelings.. And when the push finally arrives - you'll probably have like at least 70% done defences and have to buy just a little more time (usually done with the Queens), or if the map is big enough or it's a cross-spawn - then they're probably done already.. ========================================================================== With Terran - that's just impossible - if Zerg pushes out - it will arrive in your base in like 10-15 seconds.. That's hardly any time to make your defences work properly.. Maybe you'd have time to raise some depots, start building some wall-off extra buildings and start rallying some of your army back home.. And even if you see it on time - Zerg might just Baneling-bust the whole thing and supply-block you nasty.. So there's a CORE difference.. Turrets just can't be built.. You have to pre-plan them.. And when we see some extra Terran player have the Thors and/or Turrets right on time - then that's because of "zillion games played experiences", and not because of a simple scouting-info within the game.. You can't build the Turrets on time REACTIVELY, which is the core difference of "smart investing" in static defense vs playing a tower-defense game.. And even in those you have to "see" the wave.. Or you make 1-2 every two minutes or so and have 5-10 by the 15 minute mark and your opponent doesn't even go Muta because wtf there's turrets... You don't have to make turrets 10 at a time. 1 building a turret every other depot or so does it as well.
And if the Zerg never makes Mutalisks ?
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On October 16 2013 07:56 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 07:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 16 2013 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:Encouraging Terran to build Turrets is just a ridiculous thing.. Can't believe that people are having discussions upon it.. First of all - say that Terran starts it's push.. There's a good chance that a group of Lings will see the "pushout" on time, .. Then you start making a few Spines at the nat/3rd area, or at least at the 3rd.. (making sure you inject larvae is the hard part though ), then AGAIN - you send in few more lings - or maybe an overlord/overseer - to confirm that the push is comming.. Then you start making some Banelings.. And when the push finally arrives - you'll probably have like at least 70% done defences and have to buy just a little more time (usually done with the Queens), or if the map is big enough or it's a cross-spawn - then they're probably done already.. ========================================================================== With Terran - that's just impossible - if Zerg pushes out - it will arrive in your base in like 10-15 seconds.. That's hardly any time to make your defences work properly.. Maybe you'd have time to raise some depots, start building some wall-off extra buildings and start rallying some of your army back home.. And even if you see it on time - Zerg might just Baneling-bust the whole thing and supply-block you nasty.. So there's a CORE difference.. Turrets just can't be built.. You have to pre-plan them.. And when we see some extra Terran player have the Thors and/or Turrets right on time - then that's because of "zillion games played experiences", and not because of a simple scouting-info within the game.. You can't build the Turrets on time REACTIVELY, which is the core difference of "smart investing" in static defense vs playing a tower-defense game.. And even in those you have to "see" the wave.. Or you make 1-2 every two minutes or so and have 5-10 by the 15 minute mark and your opponent doesn't even go Muta because wtf there's turrets... You don't have to make turrets 10 at a time. 1 building a turret every other depot or so does it as well. And if the Zerg never makes Mutalisks ?
It's simple. No muta? He dies to drop play. He has muta? They run into turrets. He decideds to turtle and you see him make a tonne of non-muta gas units? Get expansions as he has no map control.
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On October 16 2013 07:56 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 07:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 16 2013 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:Encouraging Terran to build Turrets is just a ridiculous thing.. Can't believe that people are having discussions upon it.. First of all - say that Terran starts it's push.. There's a good chance that a group of Lings will see the "pushout" on time, .. Then you start making a few Spines at the nat/3rd area, or at least at the 3rd.. (making sure you inject larvae is the hard part though ), then AGAIN - you send in few more lings - or maybe an overlord/overseer - to confirm that the push is comming.. Then you start making some Banelings.. And when the push finally arrives - you'll probably have like at least 70% done defences and have to buy just a little more time (usually done with the Queens), or if the map is big enough or it's a cross-spawn - then they're probably done already.. ========================================================================== With Terran - that's just impossible - if Zerg pushes out - it will arrive in your base in like 10-15 seconds.. That's hardly any time to make your defences work properly.. Maybe you'd have time to raise some depots, start building some wall-off extra buildings and start rallying some of your army back home.. And even if you see it on time - Zerg might just Baneling-bust the whole thing and supply-block you nasty.. So there's a CORE difference.. Turrets just can't be built.. You have to pre-plan them.. And when we see some extra Terran player have the Thors and/or Turrets right on time - then that's because of "zillion games played experiences", and not because of a simple scouting-info within the game.. You can't build the Turrets on time REACTIVELY, which is the core difference of "smart investing" in static defense vs playing a tower-defense game.. And even in those you have to "see" the wave.. Or you make 1-2 every two minutes or so and have 5-10 by the 15 minute mark and your opponent doesn't even go Muta because wtf there's turrets... You don't have to make turrets 10 at a time. 1 building a turret every other depot or so does it as well. And if the Zerg never makes Mutalisks ?
That's an auto win for T with decent number of medivac preserved.
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On October 16 2013 07:56 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 07:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 16 2013 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:Encouraging Terran to build Turrets is just a ridiculous thing.. Can't believe that people are having discussions upon it.. First of all - say that Terran starts it's push.. There's a good chance that a group of Lings will see the "pushout" on time, .. Then you start making a few Spines at the nat/3rd area, or at least at the 3rd.. (making sure you inject larvae is the hard part though ), then AGAIN - you send in few more lings - or maybe an overlord/overseer - to confirm that the push is comming.. Then you start making some Banelings.. And when the push finally arrives - you'll probably have like at least 70% done defences and have to buy just a little more time (usually done with the Queens), or if the map is big enough or it's a cross-spawn - then they're probably done already.. ========================================================================== With Terran - that's just impossible - if Zerg pushes out - it will arrive in your base in like 10-15 seconds.. That's hardly any time to make your defences work properly.. Maybe you'd have time to raise some depots, start building some wall-off extra buildings and start rallying some of your army back home.. And even if you see it on time - Zerg might just Baneling-bust the whole thing and supply-block you nasty.. So there's a CORE difference.. Turrets just can't be built.. You have to pre-plan them.. And when we see some extra Terran player have the Thors and/or Turrets right on time - then that's because of "zillion games played experiences", and not because of a simple scouting-info within the game.. You can't build the Turrets on time REACTIVELY, which is the core difference of "smart investing" in static defense vs playing a tower-defense game.. And even in those you have to "see" the wave.. Or you make 1-2 every two minutes or so and have 5-10 by the 15 minute mark and your opponent doesn't even go Muta because wtf there's turrets... You don't have to make turrets 10 at a time. 1 building a turret every other depot or so does it as well. And if the Zerg never makes Mutalisks ?
In what league do Zerg's not make Mutas vs Bio/Mine?
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On October 16 2013 08:17 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 07:56 VArsovskiSC wrote:On October 16 2013 07:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 16 2013 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:Encouraging Terran to build Turrets is just a ridiculous thing.. Can't believe that people are having discussions upon it.. First of all - say that Terran starts it's push.. There's a good chance that a group of Lings will see the "pushout" on time, .. Then you start making a few Spines at the nat/3rd area, or at least at the 3rd.. (making sure you inject larvae is the hard part though ), then AGAIN - you send in few more lings - or maybe an overlord/overseer - to confirm that the push is comming.. Then you start making some Banelings.. And when the push finally arrives - you'll probably have like at least 70% done defences and have to buy just a little more time (usually done with the Queens), or if the map is big enough or it's a cross-spawn - then they're probably done already.. ========================================================================== With Terran - that's just impossible - if Zerg pushes out - it will arrive in your base in like 10-15 seconds.. That's hardly any time to make your defences work properly.. Maybe you'd have time to raise some depots, start building some wall-off extra buildings and start rallying some of your army back home.. And even if you see it on time - Zerg might just Baneling-bust the whole thing and supply-block you nasty.. So there's a CORE difference.. Turrets just can't be built.. You have to pre-plan them.. And when we see some extra Terran player have the Thors and/or Turrets right on time - then that's because of "zillion games played experiences", and not because of a simple scouting-info within the game.. You can't build the Turrets on time REACTIVELY, which is the core difference of "smart investing" in static defense vs playing a tower-defense game.. And even in those you have to "see" the wave.. Or you make 1-2 every two minutes or so and have 5-10 by the 15 minute mark and your opponent doesn't even go Muta because wtf there's turrets... You don't have to make turrets 10 at a time. 1 building a turret every other depot or so does it as well. And if the Zerg never makes Mutalisks ? In what league do Zerg's not make Mutas vs Bio/Mine?
Probably the "wood" league.. Oh - forgot - Curious and Dimaga are in it..
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Some people misunderstand, i dont mind making turrets, and at around 1030 i sprinkle a few to deny the initial muta flock. But beyond that, as his flock grows you MUST build marines and get out on the map, because if you plunk down the mins to get enough turrets to hold you wreck your army so hard z can just bust you down with lings.
Since we are discussing what it costs to defend a base vs mobile harass in tvz, consider:
Z can seriously cripple drops of less than 3 medis with 3 spores per base for 375 mins and the near instant response of zerglings. Add a single spine to bring the cost of static d to 575 per base. Drops of more than 3 medis are dicey with mutas out, you can only do it if the mutas are in your base, because you cant be out on the map vs a flock with that much army in medivacs. Plus, that overlord spread, or burrowed ling, or creep. Even if i do damage, those spores mean Im not likely to preserve many units.
T needs so many more turrets and static d because the units cant respond as fast, and the fast response involves my units damaging themselves, and the mutas are faster than my whole army so they just run away, and they regen so fast that that your units will wear down long before his does.
The only two options are to A) Go mech, turtle for your big pushout, and hope the other guy hasnt heard of blinding cloud or B) nonstop marine mine rally across the map to keep his flock low and keep them out of your base. Option B is very demanding.
If you had turrets that could scale in quality instead of quantity to deal with mutas it might open the matchup more, because you could provide a more robust defense without blowing all your cash on static d, and get out on the map more with slower compositions. Imagine it: the slow bio pushout, supported by mines and turrets... We might actually see broodlords come back as a response.
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I really hope they buff the tank more...I really liked doing bio mech vs zerg, but tanks are still just too expensive and mines do so much better =/...Blinding cloud is still gonna be amazing vs mech.
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Tank range upgrade on the fusion core ! Opponents siege weapons can fly, give us atleast the range advantage. Hope the combined upgrades go through, will allow easy access to BCs if you Mech.
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Make it where a ghost's emp can reset the widow mine.
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On October 16 2013 05:18 Sissors wrote:
@Till, regardless if you are in favour or against it, calling making the damage profile of a WM brilliant is kinda stretching it, considering how often it already was proposed.
A million things have been proposed. This is an interesting, and relatively unique solution, allowing WM to not be so insanely efficient or do almost nothing based on a few milliseconds of reaction time.
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On October 15 2013 02:41 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. Indeed. The tank"buff" does absolutely shit. Please buff the tanks properly...
Weird negativity in here, but it is the Starcraft 2 community so what else can be expected? Making things stronger or weaker without changing the overall feel of the game much is a good approach to improving balance for a highly competitive esport. Would it be better for Blizzard to turn the matchup on its head?
Also you'd better have been playing the test map to make a statement like the one you did.
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Terrans is all about their mechanical technologies! their robots! drones! nuclears! explosions! So now make mech can be used toe to toe vs the aliens!
Can't imagine terrans is still use mainly infantries and drugs to fight with those biologically stronger and bigger aliens. zzzzz
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Why Blizzard refuses to look at PvZ matchup?
Have a look at championship brackets at different tournaments:
GSL:
Soulkey vs Rain: 3:0
soO vs Parting: 3:1
IEM:
HerO vs Life: 0:3
sOs vs Curious: 2:3
Life vs NaNiwa: 4:2
WCS Season 2:
Jaedong vs NaNiwa: 3:1
First vs Jaedong: 0:3
Sorry, but as you can see Protos players can win a tournament, only if they somehow avoid playing Zergs.
And I will repeat my question, why Blizzard is not going to improve this matchup?
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Russian Federation262 Posts
I feel like balance is P>T>Z>P in current meta. And it is pretty ok.
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I myself build somewhere between 20-30 Turrets every game if it goes past 3 bases.. Doesn't seem strange to me. But I play mech, so I have some floating minerals. You have to build those Turrets. You only really have to play solid opponents who abuses your lack of defense so many times before you start spamming them as a mad man.
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Well im not a pro player but i think that a Tank Buff would not help Terrans much. Ling/Baneling Muta is like maximum mobility and harass. Nonstop Marine/Widowmine pressure seems like the only way to prevent at least some Muta harass keeping the Zerg busy. Somehow got the feeling that ppl tend to forget that Widowmines are a two-edged-sword, a slight mistake in positioning and they blow up parts of the Terran army aswell. If Mines need to get nerfed , Terrans need something very mobile that can put up a fight against Ling/Baneling Muta ... Tanks just wont work i guess.
Stationary def. isnt a very good option to prevent Muta harass after they reached a critical mass. But as i said ... preventing that harass and pressure/critical mass today is archived by using a very mobile Marine/Widowmine army. Nerfing that composition will leave a gap that Mechplay or additional Tanks can not fill.
My idea would be --> to give Hellions (after Blue Flame research wich should be more expensive then) the splash-flame-style of Hellbats. So you could get a very mobile but fragile splashdamage addition to your army that requires good positioning and being vurnerable to Mutas , so you still should have Marines and nerfed Windowmines in your Army.
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On October 16 2013 17:10 Everlong wrote:
I myself build somewhere between 20-30 Turrets every game if it goes past 3 bases.. Doesn't seem strange to me. But I play mech, so I have some floating minerals. You have to build those Turrets. You only really have to play solid opponents who abuses your lack of defense so many times before you start spamming them as a mad man.
Well that's not really comparable though. I'd argue as mech it's pretty much auto win if a zerg goes mutas since he can't actually tech switch in time for your push. Also if he does go mutas he's not constantly making them, as soon as he sees you're meching he is tech switching out of them, leaving you with like 10-14 mutas to deal with. Turret spam is more often than not against drops.
On October 16 2013 17:23 FuKcYeAh wrote:
Well im not a pro player but i think that a Tank Buff would not help Terrans much. Ling/Baneling Muta is like maximum mobility and harass. Nonstop Marine/Widowmine pressure seems like the only way to prevent at least some Muta harass keeping the Zerg busy. Somehow got the feeling that ppl tend to forget that Widowmines are a two-edged-sword, a slight mistake in positioning and they blow up parts of the Terran army aswell. If Mines need to get nerfed , Terrans need something very mobile that can put up a fight against Ling/Baneling Muta ... Tanks just wont work i guess.
Stationary def. isnt a very good option to prevent Muta harass after they reached a critical mass. But as i said ... preventing that harass and pressure/critical mass today is archived by using a very mobile Marine/Widowmine army. Nerfing that composition will leave a gap that Mechplay or additional Tanks can not fill.
My idea would be --> to give Hellions (after Blue Flame research wich should be more expensive then) the splash-flame-style of Hellbats. So you could get a very mobile but fragile splashdamage addition to your army that requires good positioning and being vurnerable to Mutas , so you still should have Marines and nerfed Windowmines in your Army.
I honestly have no idea how they can buff bio mech in TvZ, but I'd argue hellions don't really need any kind of buff. If they change blinding cloud in the way numerous people have suggested, I think mech will be fine in TvZ. I think buffing thors AA(so you can include 1-2 in bio mech combo) vs mutas is pretty hard to do since they scale pretty well against mutas(so basically they'd likelt be way to strong in mech vs mutas). I don't really think there's any way to actually buff tanks vs hots mutas in bio mech, so yeah... I think it needs to be either 4M or mech and stop dreaming of bio mech TvZ(which I'd so love to see again, by far most interesting playstyle imo).
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EPT
