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Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 16 2013 19:12 klup wrote:Show nested quote +They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. this is true in theory but if your marines and your widow mines are in defensive position to stop a flock of 25-30 mutas where are your offensive units? at home ! Zerg free expo and win because you are stuck in your 3 bases to defend endless muta harass that can't be caught.
At that state of a match T must already have strong production, 2-3 turrets at each base, 3wms defending mineral lines and a bunch of marines with 3-3 as support defense. Also a marine-wm-medievak parade (+1-2 thors) must be heading Z bases.
Also, Z cant defend without mutas, because they will die without em.
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On October 16 2013 19:01 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 17:50 Everlong wrote:On October 16 2013 17:44 Zarahtra wrote:On October 16 2013 17:35 Everlong wrote:On October 16 2013 17:23 Zarahtra wrote:On October 16 2013 17:10 Everlong wrote:
I myself build somewhere between 20-30 Turrets every game if it goes past 3 bases.. Doesn't seem strange to me. But I play mech, so I have some floating minerals. You have to build those Turrets. You only really have to play solid opponents who abuses your lack of defense so many times before you start spamming them as a mad man. Well that's not really comparable though. I'd argue as mech it's pretty much auto win if a zerg goes mutas since he can't actually tech switch in time for your push. Also if he does go mutas he's not constantly making them, as soon as he sees you're meching he is tech switching out of them, leaving you with like 10-14 mutas to deal with. Turret spam is more often than not against drops. Mutas vs Mech is not aut win for Terran player if properly controlled by decent Zerg player. We can elaborate on this if you want. Strong Turret rings works as key protection for mech whole game. It starts with basic mineral line defense, then protects your production and edges to deny Mutas sniping anything. Then it of course works as anti-drop defense, though it is not enough, you actually need Sensor Tower and split your army. Going on, it works as nydus spotter and overseer denial (often Zerg player wants to know when and if you are going for Ravens). As games goes on, it is good idea to further strenghten your Turret rings, because any form of what I mentioned already can be done with more units, or faster. Next thing is, you want strong Turret ring in case of heavy Muta switch (1 Thor popping around 5-6 Turrets is enough most of the time, 3-4 Thors popping around no Turret is not enough often). Also, good Zerg players will often bring Vipers to blind your Turrets and doom drop you, or fly Mutas in and kill everything. So you not only need good amount of Turrets, but also good spread of them and Sensor Tower to scan immediately what is going on there.. There are probably some situations I forgot to mention, but I think that is pretty much it. Well I can only say a 3 base muta hits at like 10-11min, I push out at like 14-15 if I see mutas. I've yet to meet anyone that can stop ~3 tanks, ~5 thors and a shitton of hellbats. 2 base mutas are a bit more frustrating to deal with admittedly since they hit earlier when your infrastructure isn't really done. So yeah, I really don't see how a player can hurt you with mutas unless he catches you completely with your pants down(or you have your hellbats clumped against blings into lings massacring your tanks/thors). This is at mid-high master. Oh you are talking specifically about some kind of 2 base mech push? I've been stopped doing this many times. Do you build 3rd CC or not? Because if you don't, it is really easy for Zerg to say what you are doing. In such case, he only needs to slow your push a little bit and then overrun you with superior unit production. The best way to do this is counterattack as soon as you leave your base and snipe reinforcements with Mutas. At this point, you are pretty much allin. He could either go for your Thors, then win with Mutas, or just overpower you with Roaches, which he should have by the time he realises you are going mech. I build a 3rd, it's not an allin but a response to seeing muta tech. The point I'm making is that roaches in enough numbers won't be out in time and without any upgrades. By the time he has the numbers to actually fight you, you are on his side of the map, usually sieged up at his 3rd killing it. If he tries to snipe your reinforcement that's fine, you just kill his 3rd and nat easier, heck when the next set of thors pops out you just pull workers and repair them and kill the mutas. Like I've said I've _never_(Edit: Nvm I remember now 2 losses when all my hellbats were clumped up and got massacred by blings) lost to someone that has opened up 3 base mutas against me going mech, thors in numbers just stomp them so hard that a wasted 1k+/1k+(along with all that time you aren't going roaches yet) you can't come back from. Ofcourse going blind mutas is moronic and doesn't happen that frequently. The main part of my first statement does however stand on it's own, mech and bio/bio mech is so different that you can't really say "I can build shittons of turrets and be fine" since that simply doesn't work for bio/bio mech.
Ok, I got it. This makes sense. In my experience though, Zerg usually somehow holds his natural and counterattacks and slowly wears down my Tank or Thor numbers and swarm me with either Roaches or Mutas (+ling counterattack), depending on what he is able to kill. I might do something wrong, I will try next time, I haven't been using this build for a long time now..
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On October 16 2013 17:57 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 17:52 Psychobabas wrote:
Honestly, I think the biggest problem at the moment is PvZ and how Protoss is pretty much forced to do some 2 base allin or just die to mass mutalisks or swarm hosts. Thats plain wrong. Watch JD stream : when he goes mass mutalisks techswitch, it's almost always a closed game. Because of his amazing muta micro, he often wins, thought. Watch Naniwa vs Life : Naniwa just destroyed Life Swarmhosts. And the mass BL/SH/Corruptor that some EU zergs have been using are not really efficient. They are destroyed a lot of times. ZvP is balanced.
To be honest, it is map dependent, I do think Swarm Host play on Akilon is way too strong for example. But it is important to note that the threat of SwarmHost play is the only thing that prevent protoss to go mass turtle mode, hide behind canons all game long and going mass Voidray/tempest/HT.
However, to be honest I'd be glad if SH was more a mid game option to be agressive with it rather than a late game turtle unit, maybe like spawning more locust and nerf their HP and SwarmHost HP too.
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Have you seen Fantasy vs Sleep game?
Once Zerg has > 20 mutas flying around with Overseer, game is basically over, no matter what terran does.
This is ridiculous.
Nerf WM, brilliant idea.
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On October 16 2013 20:14 TW wrote:
Have you seen Fantasy vs Sleep game?
Once Zerg has > 20 mutas flying around with Overseer, game is basically over, no matter what terran does.
This is ridiculous.
Nerf WM, brilliant idea.
Haven't you seen game 2? 
I can understand that zerg winning macro games seems kinda odd after what we saw the last 9 month.
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Instead of building 578 ccs and sacking scvs build turrets fuckers
User was warned for this post
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Haven't you seen game 2?
I can understand that zerg winning macro games seems kinda odd after what we saw the last 9 month.
No, I don't mind Zerg winning macro games, but seeing a clump o 30 mutas flying between terran bases is odd.
There is no real solution to this.
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United Kingdom12067 Posts
On October 16 2013 20:43 TW wrote:Show nested quote +Haven't you seen game 2?
I can understand that zerg winning macro games seems kinda odd after what we saw the last 9 month. No, I don't mind Zerg winning macro games, but seeing a clump o 30 mutas flying between terran bases is odd. There is no real solution to this.
There is a solution, limit the amount of unit selection. I honestly believe it would improve the game considerably. It'd no longer be possible to make all these tight ball armies since it'd be hard to select them all.
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I don't know what games you guys play but Muta Flock isn't OP and it takes forethought positioning and good micro to be able to even make mutas truly effective..... If you are having a hard time agianst mutas running around in your base and you have an army chasing it all over the place take the fight to the zerg.... he HAS to defend or takea base trade which if you are building turrets at home and use your marine mine rally into your base to defend he will most likely lose.....
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 16 2013 20:43 TW wrote:Show nested quote +Haven't you seen game 2?
I can understand that zerg winning macro games seems kinda odd after what we saw the last 9 month. No, I don't mind Zerg winning macro games, but seeing a clump o 30 mutas flying between terran bases is odd. There is no real solution to this.
I wrote a solution, just scroll up ^^
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On October 16 2013 20:43 TW wrote:Show nested quote +Haven't you seen game 2?
I can understand that zerg winning macro games seems kinda odd after what we saw the last 9 month. No, I don't mind Zerg winning macro games, but seeing a clump o 30 mutas flying between terran bases is odd. There is no real solution to this.
Well that's the point if you failed your aggression you lose momentum and mutalisk can freely walk around the map, but if you don't mutalisk are forced to be used to defend.
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On October 16 2013 19:24 wishr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 19:12 klup wrote:They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. this is true in theory but if your marines and your widow mines are in defensive position to stop a flock of 25-30 mutas where are your offensive units? at home ! Zerg free expo and win because you are stuck in your 3 bases to defend endless muta harass that can't be caught. At that state of a match T must already have strong production, 2-3 turrets at each base, 3wms defending mineral lines and a bunch of marines with 3-3 as support defense. Also a marine-wm-medievak parade (+1-2 thors) must be heading Z bases. Also, Z cant defend without mutas, because they will die without em.
So :
Terran on 4 bases.
- 4x3 turrets = 1200 minerals
- 4x3 WM = 900minerals, 300 gas, 24 pop
- 4 x (8marines + 1 medivac) = 2000 minerals / 400 gas, 40 pop
Total : 4100 minerals, 700 gas, 64 pop.
Can i say your solution is bad ?
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 16 2013 21:01 yolteotl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 19:24 wishr wrote:On October 16 2013 19:12 klup wrote:They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. this is true in theory but if your marines and your widow mines are in defensive position to stop a flock of 25-30 mutas where are your offensive units? at home ! Zerg free expo and win because you are stuck in your 3 bases to defend endless muta harass that can't be caught. At that state of a match T must already have strong production, 2-3 turrets at each base, 3wms defending mineral lines and a bunch of marines with 3-3 as support defense. Also a marine-wm-medievak parade (+1-2 thors) must be heading Z bases. Also, Z cant defend without mutas, because they will die without em. So : Terran on 4 bases. - 4x3 turrets = 1200 minerals - 4x3 WM = 900minerals, 300 gas, 24 pop - 4 x (8marines + 1 medivac) = 2000 minerals / 400 gas, 40 pop Total : 4100 minerals, 700 gas, 64 pop. Can i say your solution is bad ?
Its pretty cheap, because u build it not in 1 second. And it solves so much problems. Try it, u just wrote those numbers, because they would save you from ANY muta agression. In most cases 1wm+1turret would make you safe.
Same for zerg: to defend drops we build 2-3spines, 1-2 spores, some zerglings and banes and keep em in mineral location, but in most cases it cant stop 3-3 marines without additional support.
Protoss build up cannons + stalkers to defend.
Also, why Terran might have a chance to survive without static defense? You already have mulls, so dont cry about cost.
If u think we must deal with 4boosted medievaks with free marines and die to it, but T must survive to mass muta without defense.. well, thats just stupid.
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On October 16 2013 20:50 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I don't know what games you guys play but Muta Flock isn't OP and it takes forethought positioning and good micro to be able to even make mutas truly effective..... If you are having a hard time agianst mutas running around in your base and you have an army chasing it all over the place take the fight to the zerg.... he HAS to defend or takea base trade which if you are building turrets at home and use your marine mine rally into your base to defend he will most likely lose.....
i dont know if i am alone in saying base trades are really awful to watch
i dont mind counterattacks but full on trades are just anticlimatic
based on the recent trends i think the balance right now is in fact GOOD, and blizzard should allow at least 3 months more before making new considerations
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Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On October 16 2013 21:01 yolteotl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 19:24 wishr wrote:On October 16 2013 19:12 klup wrote:They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. this is true in theory but if your marines and your widow mines are in defensive position to stop a flock of 25-30 mutas where are your offensive units? at home ! Zerg free expo and win because you are stuck in your 3 bases to defend endless muta harass that can't be caught. At that state of a match T must already have strong production, 2-3 turrets at each base, 3wms defending mineral lines and a bunch of marines with 3-3 as support defense. Also a marine-wm-medievak parade (+1-2 thors) must be heading Z bases. Also, Z cant defend without mutas, because they will die without em. So : Terran on 4 bases. - 4x3 turrets = 1200 minerals - 4x3 WM = 900minerals, 300 gas, 24 pop - 4 x (8marines + 1 medivac) = 2000 minerals / 400 gas, 40 pop Total : 4100 minerals, 700 gas, 64 pop. Can i say your solution is bad ?
Don't include marines + medivacs as if you're doing that strat, you're on full turtle mode.
However, if you have 1 bunch of marines at your natural (and all maps have easily defendable third), you are able to stop all muta aggression without a serious investment.
Making turrets too early will mean less Marines, making them when Muta numbers get high is correct. If you can stop a 2.5k/2.5k investment for harassment with 2k/300 - I think it is a fair deal.
And when and if you get a 4th base, you will be spread out with your initial marine squad, therefore, you're attacking with your main army, unless Zerg pulls back his Mutas to defend, he's most likely going to lose that battle. And if you're not attacking, your main army should be around your natural base and your marine squad transferred over to your 4th base.
This probably doesn't work against players like Jaedong, but I highly doubt any of us meet tier 1 players at a regular basis here.
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On October 16 2013 20:43 TW wrote:Show nested quote +Haven't you seen game 2?
I can understand that zerg winning macro games seems kinda odd after what we saw the last 9 month. No, I don't mind Zerg winning macro games, but seeing a clump o 30 mutas flying between terran bases is odd. There is no real solution to this.
Can't 5 vikings two-shot an overseer? If desperate, stim 3 marines with a marauder out front and snipe their ov
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On October 16 2013 21:01 yolteotl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 19:24 wishr wrote:On October 16 2013 19:12 klup wrote:They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. this is true in theory but if your marines and your widow mines are in defensive position to stop a flock of 25-30 mutas where are your offensive units? at home ! Zerg free expo and win because you are stuck in your 3 bases to defend endless muta harass that can't be caught. At that state of a match T must already have strong production, 2-3 turrets at each base, 3wms defending mineral lines and a bunch of marines with 3-3 as support defense. Also a marine-wm-medievak parade (+1-2 thors) must be heading Z bases. Also, Z cant defend without mutas, because they will die without em. So : Terran on 4 bases. - 4x3 turrets = 1200 minerals - 4x3 WM = 900minerals, 300 gas, 24 pop - 4 x (8marines + 1 medivac) = 2000 minerals / 400 gas, 40 pop Total : 4100 minerals, 700 gas, 64 pop. Can i say your solution is bad ?
What as a Muta deterrent - somewhat - worked for me, was 2 turrets and 3 or 4 marines per base and drop a pdd when the mutas approached. Never seen it on a high level though, so there must be something terribly wrong with it.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 16 2013 21:20 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 21:01 yolteotl wrote:On October 16 2013 19:24 wishr wrote:On October 16 2013 19:12 klup wrote:They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. this is true in theory but if your marines and your widow mines are in defensive position to stop a flock of 25-30 mutas where are your offensive units? at home ! Zerg free expo and win because you are stuck in your 3 bases to defend endless muta harass that can't be caught. At that state of a match T must already have strong production, 2-3 turrets at each base, 3wms defending mineral lines and a bunch of marines with 3-3 as support defense. Also a marine-wm-medievak parade (+1-2 thors) must be heading Z bases. Also, Z cant defend without mutas, because they will die without em. So : Terran on 4 bases. - 4x3 turrets = 1200 minerals - 4x3 WM = 900minerals, 300 gas, 24 pop - 4 x (8marines + 1 medivac) = 2000 minerals / 400 gas, 40 pop Total : 4100 minerals, 700 gas, 64 pop. Can i say your solution is bad ? What as a Muta deterrent - somewhat - worked for me, was 2 turrets and 3 or 4 marines per base and drop a pdd when the mutas approached. Never seen it on a high level though, so there must be something terribly wrong with it.
That kind of def makes me scary, always (im Z). + there always could be a WM near marines.
Marines destroy mutas insanely good.
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Hey, David Kim, Sc2 is out since 2+ years now, please close beta tests.
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I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
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EPT
