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muta regen needs to be nerfed if WM nerf gets throu, im okay with their speed since they need it to snipe speedyvacs
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On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York.
Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play.
I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play.
I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. The TvZ is too mine focused which is ridiculous. I dare to say that it is not working as intended. The mine should not be the backbone of the terran army in TvZ but a gimmicky addition. Let blizzard go for it. If balance isnt well enaugh after a change blizzard will continue to buff other terran mechanics.
Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself.
Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-)
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Muta's speed was for medivac, but muta's regen was for WM's AoE.
If WM's AoE is nerfed there is no reason on earth to keep muta's insane regen.
This will only lead to big balls of muta flying uncontested qround the map in every ZvT
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It has been said before but buffing were the units are already good at instead of buffing were they lack strengh starts to get boring
If WM's AoE is nerfed there is no reason on earth to keep muta's insane regen.
This will only lead to big balls of muta flying uncontested qround the map in every ZvT
M-muh sick muta control !! ;_;
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On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-)
Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won.
MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be.
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On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be.
That was an excellent series of games and well worth watching.
As to Flash at IEM NY i am almost certain he didn't get drilling claws for his WM ( might be wrong on this)
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On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be.
one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D
For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course there are some exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. People more and more leave the game due to this. This is a major SC2 issue that is being discussed everywhere. But your lack of common sense doesn't let you put things together. Hf being stuck on your narrow sight on things.
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On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York.
Flash is 42nd in WCS Standings, not too far behind Welmu and Dimaga. Flash playing SC2 is Michael Jordan playing Baseball.
On October 16 2013 22:06 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 22:02 Jerom wrote:On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how? Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring. Not Terrans' fault if all their options have been either nuked or simply lose to 90 drones + creep galore + Hive rush.
Cry me an effing river. When other races lose, their players 'choke', but when Terrans lose, their 'options have been nuked'. You are such a joke.
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On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening.
Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf?
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As I see it, I can get behind changing things up so 4M isn't so dominant strategy in TvZ. I don't think nerfing VM is needed to do that, they should rather focus on fixing the issues the rest of unit combos have. So to add diversity to TvZ isn't an argument for nerfing VMs.
Nerfing VMs is only a good choice if you think they are to strong, which I'd atleast disagree with, though I do think they are terrible to watch(as in the micro of VMs goes mostly unnoticed fx. Hack's drop at Snutes main, was he microing those 2x VMs to not fire or did he get lucky?). in comparison to most notably the tank.
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On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf?
Did you?
Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads?
Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy?
What does this imply?
Alot of questions to be answered.
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On October 16 2013 22:50 Vanadiel wrote:
[...]
Anyway, I'm just throwing this but I would like to see a test with a buff of late game unit like thor or BC for terran, in exchange for a slightly higher gas cost. That way, with the buff you would see more transition from bio mines to late game units since in these situation terran usually build up a gas bank, while a higher gas cost would prevent turtle/passive play behind Planetary/turrets to occures. thoughts?
I would also love to see a buff to the terran units that are rarely used (for all races). :D
These are:
- Thor
- Battlecruiser
Also I would like to see a buff to the banshee that makes it a little bit more viable in the lategame. As of now, if the game advances far enough into the lategame, it becomes useless if the opponent has some sort of static defense. It should probably be in form of an upgrade on the fusion core, so it won't have an effect on early and midgame.
Things from other races that are rarely used: carriers and nydus. Players of the other races will probably be able to name more units. 
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On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be.
Some people have an irrational dislike of the swarm host purely based on the fact that it spawns free units, based on traumatic memories of brood lord infestor. Blizzard nerfed the infestor significantly in the HotS beta, but when they realized they had gone too far and they gave a small counter buff, there was again outcry from people that could not live in a world where the infestor was a viable unit. You'll see the same thing for the widow mine: despite its actual strength or place in the game, some people just dislike the unit and will grab at everything to justify nerfing it. So Fantasy vs Sleep becomes "Fantasy lucked out due to randomness of the mine" even though that's a mischaracterization. On the other hand there are some units that the community favors, such as siege tanks, in which case no buff would be enough and nobody cares about the actual balance of the game. I think Blizzard would do well to not take the community's emotions into consideration when balancing.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 16 2013 23:25 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. Some people have an irrational dislike of the swarm host purely based on the fact that it spawns free units, based on traumatic memories of brood lord infestor. Blizzard nerfed the infestor significantly in the HotS beta, but when they realized they had gone too far and they gave a small counter buff, there was again outcry from people that could not live in a world where the infestor was a viable unit. You'll see the same thing for the widow mine: despite its actual strength or place in the game, some people just dislike the unit and will grab at everything to justify nerfing it. So Fantasy vs Sleep becomes "Fantasy lucked out due to randomness of the mine" even though that's a mischaracterization. On the other hand there are some units that the community favors, such as siege tanks, in which case no buff would be enough and nobody cares about the actual balance of the game. I think Blizzard would do well to not take the community's emotions into consideration when balancing.
They already do not take the community's emotions into consideration when balancing. DT buff removal was related to rational reasons most likely.
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My question with this map what are the winrates as of now? Or is anyone playing this map at all? lol
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Has anyone in this thread actually played on the map?
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On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered.
Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1
We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone.
With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable.
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On October 16 2013 23:25 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 22:50 Vanadiel wrote:
[...]
Anyway, I'm just throwing this but I would like to see a test with a buff of late game unit like thor or BC for terran, in exchange for a slightly higher gas cost. That way, with the buff you would see more transition from bio mines to late game units since in these situation terran usually build up a gas bank, while a higher gas cost would prevent turtle/passive play behind Planetary/turrets to occures. thoughts? I would also love to see a buff to the terran units that are rarely used (for all races). :D These are: - Thor - Battlecruiser Also I would like to see a buff to the banshee that makes it a little bit more viable in the lategame. As of now, if the game advances far enough into the lategame, it becomes useless if the opponent has some sort of static defense. It should probably be in form of an upgrade on the fusion core, so it won't have an effect on early and midgame. Things from other races that are rarely used: carriers and nydus. Players of the other races will probably be able to name more units.
coming in LotV m8
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On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:
I would not consider him a top korean terran right now.
Twice one map away from Code S RO8, best or second best Terran macro in the world: "not a top Korean Terran." I guess Bogus also became an anonymous mid-tier Terran in your eyes since he's in Code A right now?
I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all
I did not take this as a measure for balance. Learn to read without constantly distorting what people write and you might understand what I meant.
and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed.
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On October 15 2013 02:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:45 Everlong wrote:On October 15 2013 02:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 15 2013 02:41 Snusmumriken wrote:On October 15 2013 02:38 a176 wrote:
All these random balance changes, most of them he doesn't even go through with, it seems like David Kim doesn't have a fucking clue what to do with this game anymore. Indeed. The tank"buff" does absolutely shit. Please buff the tanks properly... Suggest one without screwing up the game completely. Also, i still liek the direction they are going. + 10 dmg to shields. Good thing against immortals, yeah :3? Still keeps them useless against zerg anyways.
remove smart fire for the tanks and allow overkill
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EPT
