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They came out with that idea right after bomber used it against Scarlett..... He opened up with 3 siege tanks then switched to bio mine... Which was more of a reaction to her very VERY good 2-2 timings and lair timings.... I guess they really wanted to see that played more but honestly if you think about it if zergs started playing more like scarlett terran would almost be forced into tthat type of opener but late game I can't see Siege tank + WM even being effective enough against the now meta of Ling bling muta into ultra+infestor just because of the cost of investment of Factories and build time ..... Push speed would be GREATLY slowed down.........
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On October 16 2013 23:36 TheDwf wrote:
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
Pretty much what I was trying to say with my statement just 10x better hahahaha
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On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable.
Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol.
Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves.
To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general.
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LSN is just beyond dumb. He even fails to realize that 'design' and 'balance' are different topics. If you want to talk about design LSN, go talk about design in a blog. Lots of people (me including) think Starcraft 2 has flaws in its design, but a match up being 'stale' or 'showing the same strategies' doesn't mean it needs to be changed when its in fact - not imbalanced.
Please understand it. Anyways, I'm outta here, stupidity is too high.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 16 2013 23:36 TheDwf wrote:
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
And what makes you think that blizzard wont change any op zerg mechanics and insufficient t capabilities if the mine nerf hits the matchup hard and makes it onesided while not offering good alternatives at the same time?
Rather start changes or keep anything as it is and have a stale matchup until the release for the next add-on, lose playerbase, lose spectators?
I'd say go for it blizzard. Nerf mines and then nerf anything else that is needed and finally we might get a matchup/game where it is worth to use ones brain and where you can see upsets and intelligent moves in addition to the pure test of mechanics.
On October 16 2013 23:57 NarutO wrote:
LSN is just beyond dumb. He even fails to realize that 'design' and 'balance' are different topics. If you want to talk about design LSN, go talk about design in a blog. Lots of people (me including) think Starcraft 2 has flaws in its design, but a match up being 'stale' or 'showing the same strategies' doesn't mean it needs to be changed when its in fact - not imbalanced.
Please understand it. Anyways, I'm outta here, stupidity is too high.
@Naruto: If mods were not biased, you had actually been perma banned long time ago out of this forum.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Pretty much they are both saying that you heard it here first that it WILL make some zerg mechanics OP and if they are nerfing WM they have to do the same to zerg at the same time or give Terran stronger buff than 10% ROF otherwise you'll start seeing the scales tip hard and fast......
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On October 17 2013 00:13 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Pretty much they are both saying that you heard it here first that it WILL make some zerg mechanics OP and if they are nerfing WM they have to do the same to zerg at the same time or give Terran stronger buff than 10% ROF otherwise you'll start seeing the scales tip hard and fast......
Well I know this myself but I can't help it if blizzard needs to do things step by step and see actual results first and stuff. Tankbuff + combined upgrades isn't at all a bad thing to start off with I'd answer.
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On October 17 2013 00:05 LSN wrote:
And what makes you think that blizzard wont change any op zerg mechanics and insufficient t capabilities if the mine nerf hits the matchup hard and makes it onesided while not offering good alternatives at the same time?
I don't know, perhaps the fact they didn't touch core macro mechanics since beta? Purposefully pushing one match-up towards one side's favor in hope people in charge of the game suddenly become aware of the glaring flaws left unchecked for 3 years is just so far-fetched I can't believe you write this seriously.
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Blizzard will take care of it for their own sake. They can't afford to mess up more than they already did with things in the recent past.
Although I'd say core race mechanics don't necessarily need to be changed at all (inject/creep). A simple nerf of some units muta/ultralisk/viper would probably be enaugh to get things right and a buff of some terran mech/air-units. The macro abilities of P/T aren't bad at all too. Terran lategame army just does need an improvement. The matchup should eventually be like this:
Z throws stuff against terran so it doesnt get too strong and kills the zerg in the end on 4-5 base so Z can use its production mechanics and terran its countless defensive mechanics. Right now it is just the wrong way round and this is why it is not working out well. T has the race mechanics for what is needed when playing Z and Z has the mechanic for what is needed when playing T in current metagame. This can be changed for sure without touching the race core mechanics but changing some lategame units.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
All i think about those changes is that nerf to muta regen is needed now. Like to 0.75 or even 0.5 i think is fine. Seriously, some tosses already just quit the game the second they see mutas in their base (okay, i add insult to injury by going double spire, but who cares).
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Without even speaking of muta play, I'd like to see advancements of other playstyles, whether they be mass ling aggression, infestor plays, etc! ZvT is so gas based, I'd like to see some mineral based focus.
I do hope we see the tank come back, but not as a part of mech.
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On October 16 2013 23:36 TheDwf wrote:
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes.
Nope. It's stale since Banelings are the only way to go in the midgame vs mass marines and since Mech is worse than before, mostly because of the Viper.
The core of the problem lies there:
Terran has to go marine/medivac based because nothing else works. Zergs has to go banelings/mutalisk based because nothing else works. Then you add a few sidekick units to those core compositions and that's the whole transitionpath you get.
Edit: The queen patch did nothing but eliminate a fuckton of coinflips from the 2011/12 metagame and thereby revealing the balance problems of the matchup. (Terran having trouble in the lategame of WoL, after a balanced early/midgame)
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On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general.
I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale.
But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ?
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On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen.
Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger.
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On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:On October 15 2013 03:44 sibs wrote:
They should probably hold off on nerfs for another 2 months, Zerg hasn't done very well lately, but it seems to be getting better without patches. But then again if we actually had top terrans on this IEM NY they'd probably have won it... Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ?
People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas.
People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane
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On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger.
And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane
Hey, as someone who missed all the fun with marine tank vs MLB, can someone give me a VOD of it on a non-retarded map :D? Last time i have seen a really fun Marine Tank v MLB game it ended with ghost sniping all the stuff.
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On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane
And terrans were still losing with a 2 supply siege tank that cost 100 less gas... So why do they think terrans would go back to marine tank when tank now shoot 10% faster. One of the core reasons Terran play with mines vs MLB is because they are good vs mutas. Not sure how you can buff the siege tank to be good vs mutas.
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On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane Honestly, a lot of the Marine/Tank vs. Mutalingbane being entertaining came from players just being bad at the time. Zerg staying on Tier 2 for 30 minutes, not upgrading their ground units or barely upgrading them, not using infestors at all, etc. Terran was absolutely ahead of Zerg in terms of development at the time, and even without a queen buff, Marine/Tank vs. Mutalingbane would have died as Zerg development caught up with Terran development.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 17 2013 01:36 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:
[quote]
Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play.
I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play.
I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state.
Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself.
Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane Honestly, a lot of the Marine/Tank vs. Mutalingbane being entertaining came from players just being bad at the time. Zerg staying on Tier 2 for 30 minutes, not upgrading their ground units or barely upgrading them, not using infestors at all, etc. Terran was absolutely ahead of Zerg in terms of development at the time, and even without a queen buff, Marine/Tank vs. Mutalingbane would have died as Zerg development caught up with Terran development.
It's not like in modern TvZs Zerg does get T3, especially if it is DRG lol.
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