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On October 17 2013 01:33 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:
[quote]
Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play.
I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play.
I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state.
Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself.
Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger. And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game. I would agree that mines are not overpowered. I think the proposed nerf is reasonable, though. It's a closet buff to other T units, especially medivacs, in regards to friendly fire splash. I think the tank does need some further sort of buff to make up for the widowmine nerf to make it worth mixing in (I like the idea of transformation servos speeding up tank/thor/viking transformation time in addition to its current effect), but I have no issues with the widow mine nerf, even if they're not currently overpowered from a balance standpoint.
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On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:On October 15 2013 03:46 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Flash didn't win IEM New York. Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play. I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play. I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state. Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself. Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane
Muta/Ling/bling vs Marine/Mine/Medivac is just as interesting. What is upsetting is that there are no alternatives. There are no infestors or mech. There are no transitions. The optimal way to play is not to use your unit reportaire strategically. Even Ultras and Infestors are hardly ever seen, since zergs are just getting comfortable going 2-2 muta/ling/bling without any other investments. Not to talk about Broodlords, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, Hydras... If you are lucky you see the occasional roach allin. (don't get me started about useless Terran units...)
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On October 17 2013 01:38 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:36 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won.
MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane Honestly, a lot of the Marine/Tank vs. Mutalingbane being entertaining came from players just being bad at the time. Zerg staying on Tier 2 for 30 minutes, not upgrading their ground units or barely upgrading them, not using infestors at all, etc. Terran was absolutely ahead of Zerg in terms of development at the time, and even without a queen buff, Marine/Tank vs. Mutalingbane would have died as Zerg development caught up with Terran development. It's not like in modern TvZs Zerg does get T3, especially if it is DRG lol. Modern TvZ isn't Marine/Tank, though :p
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On October 17 2013 01:40 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:33 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won.
MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger. And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game. I would agree that mines are not overpowered. I think the proposed nerf is reasonable, though. It's a closet buff to other T units, especially medivacs, in regards to friendly fire splash. I think the tank does need some further sort of buff to make up for the widowmine nerf to make it worth mixing in (I like the idea of transformation servos speeding up tank/thor/viking transformation time in addition to its current effect), but I have no issues with the widow mine nerf, even if they're not currently overpowered from a balance standpoint.
So mine is not OP, but it is nerfed. Tank gets buff but is not enough to offset the nerf. But overall the mine nerf is ok? Not sure how that is logical at all.
So storm is not OP but it can be nerfed. Then carrier gets buffed but not enough to offset the storm nerf. But overall the storm nerf is ok?
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David KIm is doing a great job.
As usual.
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I see zergs falling back more and more to the heavy queen openings with huge economy and massive creep spread. If terran fails to do dmg with the first stim/medivac timing its pretty much over all ready. Its a very small window were damage needs to be done and I dont see a tiny attack speed increase for the tank helping out here if mine gets nerfed.
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On October 17 2013 01:46 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:40 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:33 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:
[quote]
one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D
For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening.
Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger. And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game. I would agree that mines are not overpowered. I think the proposed nerf is reasonable, though. It's a closet buff to other T units, especially medivacs, in regards to friendly fire splash. I think the tank does need some further sort of buff to make up for the widowmine nerf to make it worth mixing in (I like the idea of transformation servos speeding up tank/thor/viking transformation time in addition to its current effect), but I have no issues with the widow mine nerf, even if they're not currently overpowered from a balance standpoint. So mine is not OP, but it is nerfed. Tank gets buff but is not enough to offset the nerf. But overall the mine nerf is ok? Not sure how that is logical at all. So storm is not OP but it can be nerfed. Then carrier gets buffed but not enough to offset the storm nerf. But overall the storm nerf is ok? The widow mine is not currently OP because it's counterable and isn't breaking the matchup (good winrate balance). The nerf will lessen FF damage and still leave a decent-sized kill-zone for the detonations, and a slight mobility buff to the siege tank would probably allow them to be mixed in. So the nerf is okay because it will hopefully allow a quality-of-life improvement to the game (by way of increased player options on both sides), and the tank is being looked at for buffs, and thus will likely be buffed further in some way if the refire rate buff isn't enough.
Storms and Carriers don't have a similar role. Tanks and mines do. They're not even down the same tech path.
A similar comparison would be nerfing Storm but giving Dark Templar or Archons some sort of ranged splash ability. In which case a nerfed (but still usable) Storm and enhanced Dark Templar functionality might be a net-positive for the game.
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On October 17 2013 01:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 23:36 TheDwf wrote:
The match-up is stale because Zerg's development (creep/production/tech) is out of control since the Queen patch and Zerg received much stronger mutas and ultras, not to mention the Viper nonsense, further killing off Tank-based play. Even 4M is struggling to bring Zerg's play under control. The core of the problem lies there; Zerg's macro is so powerful that only constant pressure from the Terran side (= 4M) can vaguely tame it. As long as Zerg can safely cover half of the map in creep + get 90 drones + rush Hive against any down-time in midgame, you will not see Tank-based play coming back unless the Tank's strength is dramatically increased (≠ a measly -0.3 attack speed to pretend there is a compensation). Fix this, and then you can tone down the Mine as a support tool for Tank-based play.
I have absolutely no problem with Tanks becoming the norm again in TvZ, but you're simply deluded if you think it all adds up with the proposed changes. Nope. It's stale since Banelings are the only way to go in the midgame vs mass marines and since Mech is worse than before, mostly because of the Viper. The core of the problem lies there: Terran has to go marine/medivac based because nothing else works. Zergs has to go banelings/mutalisk based because nothing else works. Then you add a few sidekick units to those core compositions and that's the whole transitionpath you get. Edit: The queen patch did nothing but eliminate a fuckton of coinflips from the 2011/12 metagame and thereby revealing the balance problems of the matchup. (Terran having trouble in the lategame of WoL, after a balanced early/midgame)
As usual your analysis of the consequences of the Queen patch is off; how can you even fail to recognize the gigantic difference in creep surface by midgame (something which have major consequences for Tank-based play as Zerg ground units on creep can overwhelm Tanks so easily) when you can start your spread 4 minuts earlier, or simply the difference between having a free 6' third and having to fight for it by making either speedlings or a few Roaches? Not to mention virtually eliminating timings (HotS gave back one strong timing to Terran with Hellbats, but of course it was promptly relegated to oblivion with a quick stroke of the nerf hammer; how convenient) because they cannot reliably equalize anymore.
All of the attacks you refer to, Hellions/Marauders, 2 fact Hellions, etc., could have been easily shut down by the Overlord part of the patch alone (or even the HotS solution of overspeed at tier1), better maps (at the time there were still maps such as Metalopolis or XNC with wide open naturals), or even the natural development of Zerg's play with the systematisation of evos/spine/queens walls, etc. Yet strangely enough, all the easy Roaches coinflips Zerg still enjoys by now weren't patched; double standards as usual.
Banelings are not even the main actor in the Zerg side of the 4M scenario as lings/mutas do well against low Marines numbers below a huge Medivac count; Banelings are there to make sure Terran cannot simply keep 50+ Marines in a ball and massacre everything, but Zerg doesn't have to get tons of them. Roaches/Hydras has also no troubles handling mass Marines so I have absolutely no idea why you bring back up your eternal rant about the Marine being too strong.
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I honestly think Terran should get something done with the Bunker upgrade, since the upgrade is on engineering bay where there are already some of the most important upgrades in the game.
Are we really supposed to upgrade bunker to 6 slots @ 25 min when we have 3-3 done? I think Neosteel upgrade (for 6 slots) should be an orbital drop that uses energy just like mules and scan. To balance the bunker rush with neosteel drop you would, for example, need to build engineering bay first to unluck the neosteel drop.
What do terrans and non-terrans think about this? Should this upgrade increase bunker HP aswell maybe?
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On October 17 2013 01:22 Big J wrote:Edit: The queen patch did nothing but eliminate a fuckton of coinflips from the 2011/12 metagame and thereby revealing the balance problems of the matchup. (Terran having trouble in the lategame of WoL, after a balanced early/midgame) Part of the problem is that the threat of those coinflips needed to exist to keep the Zerg economy in check. After those were removed by the queen/overlord patch became significantly harder to play against Zerg as the other races. Now there is little Terran can do in the early/mid game against a good Zerg to threaten them, and for Protoss it is even worse with the current 3 hatch before pool way Zergs are playing since there are so few pressures Protoss can do that actually work to punish that super fast third outside of all-ins yet if Protoss tries to take a fast third themselves to keep up it is trivial for Zerg to force a cancel and delay it significantly (as we saw repeatedly at IEM last weekend).
I still think they should have removed the queen buff when they released HOTS. It would have fixed a lot of issues. The overlord buff made sense. The queen buff seemed completely arbitrary and ruined any semblance of balance the game had.
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Note that I'm non-HotS player but from what I've watched, one of the main problems of TvZ is that Terran wants to deny creep as early as possible but zergs overrun their army. Example: Flash vs DRG
So, why doesn't creep tumor get nerfed by: 50 energy requirement/Lair/make it research. I'm not a game balance guy but I'm sure David Kim can come up with some kind of creep solution if he tries.
Reasoning behind nerf: it's currently a no-brain activity to do while it gives major advantage. At least make it harder to do. Another thing may be to reduce gained creep from a creep tumor. In other words, radius.
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On October 17 2013 01:34 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:On October 16 2013 23:00 LSN wrote:
[quote]
Honestly flash's performance was at best average at IEMNY and the use of mines was quite poor. He always burrowed too late and never had enaugh mines. His timings in general seemed odd when he moved out just always with a bit too few units. Even commentators acknowledged that flash better should play mech due to the poor state of his bio play and this tells alot due to the fact that bio/mine is obviously way superior to mech play.
I would not consider him a top korean terran right now. He seems bored of the game and when you ask for the reasons then he has given the answers himself: he wants more variety and mech being viable. This is what you can see when you watch him play.
I wonder why you try to take this as a measure for balance at all and on the other hand I wonder why you'd like to see the matchup keep being stale. The first reason for it being stale is the mine so it must be changed. Alot more must be changed as well. In fact alot of zerg mechanics must be reworked too to give the matchup a few different play styles on each side not just bling/muta vs bio/mine but for now lets start with the mine. I guess terrans like you rather see the game dieing instead of accepting some changes which require more changes etc. If you dont change the mine there will never be any reason for terrans not to play bio/mine in its current state.
Alot of top tier players have already mentioned that they dislike the randomness of games in many situations. This is what I said about lucky win mechanics as well since the beginning of the discussion. The mine is such a mechanic amongst others as it either hits 12 banelings or not and this decides games. Noone wants to see this. TvZ is btw only interesting to watch if zergs win (as you watch them how they manage to overcome the terran). If terran wins its always boring to watch lol. So blizzard in general needs to reduce these lucky win mechanics. It kills the fun and is not connected to superior play but just a lucky move or not. Noone wants to play this even if it might balance out in one or the other way and even if it might be exciting to watch. E.g. demuslim has talked about this as well and given the mine as an example as well being a terran himself.
Conclusingly: In general alot of things need to be changed to make SC2 a more fun game to play and to give it its strategical variance that it deserves. The mine is one part of it and therefore everybody should encourage blizzard to change the mine and then follow up with more changes in the right direction instead of supporting blizzard to keep a stale boring metagame just for the temporal sake of ones own race in this very moment which is what you do over and over again when I read your comments in this thread. Very true that good players (what you might be) usually have not a bit of a clue about good game design ;-) Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won. MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane Hey, as someone who missed all the fun with marine tank vs MLB, can someone give me a VOD of it on a non-retarded map :D? Last time i have seen a really fun Marine Tank v MLB game it ended with ghost sniping all the stuff.
asusrog finals polt vs stephano is a good example.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 17 2013 02:37 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:34 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 17 2013 01:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:08 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
Fantasy vs Sleep Game 3 from GSL Code A was amazing to watch and rated one of the best games. Most if not all people enjoyed it. Terran won.
MAN BORING SHIT BRO. You are full of shit and always will be. one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening. Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? People are upset because Marine/Tank vs MutaLingBane was the BEST matchup, the most fun to watch, and one of the most exciting. And then terran was given a 2 supply siege tank that costs 100 less gas. People are upset because they miss the days when it was Marine/Tank vs Mutalingbane Hey, as someone who missed all the fun with marine tank vs MLB, can someone give me a VOD of it on a non-retarded map :D? Last time i have seen a really fun Marine Tank v MLB game it ended with ghost sniping all the stuff. asusrog finals polt vs stephano is a good example.
Stephano making mutas? WHAT!?
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On October 17 2013 01:46 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:40 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:33 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:16 LSN wrote:
[quote]
one more of these guys I mentioned ... :D
For you again: TvZ is stale. Let blizzard to its job and change things step by step so more tactics get viable. They cant obviously do it all at once. The matchup needs to get some creative options for the players that enforce switches on the metagame. Your raging wont change anything about this. Btw most TvZ where terrans win are boring. Of course their are exceptions. In general ZvT is exciting to watch but still it is stale and always the exact same that is happening.
Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf? Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger. And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game. I would agree that mines are not overpowered. I think the proposed nerf is reasonable, though. It's a closet buff to other T units, especially medivacs, in regards to friendly fire splash. I think the tank does need some further sort of buff to make up for the widowmine nerf to make it worth mixing in (I like the idea of transformation servos speeding up tank/thor/viking transformation time in addition to its current effect), but I have no issues with the widow mine nerf, even if they're not currently overpowered from a balance standpoint. So mine is not OP, but it is nerfed. Tank gets buff but is not enough to offset the nerf. But overall the mine nerf is ok? Not sure how that is logical at all.
I don't think looking at a single unit is a good aproach. Mines don't exist in a vacuum. Looking at top level TvZ from the last few months, it looks as if MMMM might - yes might - be OP, but it is certainly too much of a Swiss army knife without a clearly defined counter.
I've seen people switch to Ultras and being killed during the transition before thre Ultras spawn, I've seen people being killed after Ultras spawn as there was no support left, I've seen the Combo take out broodlords and infestors. I've seen RorO play masterfully - hitting with fungals, hitting with banes, creating surrounds - but die miserably to drops as he had no static defense.
Something has to be done, Blizzard obviously doesn't even consider to touch the holy Marine, doesn't want to touch the Medivac, both better choices imho, so the mine it is. If this mini-nerf goes thru along with the proposed armory upgrade mergers and the tank buff, we can in the future as well expect to see at least as many Terrans at the top of rankings as the other races combined.
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On October 17 2013 02:36 darkness wrote:
Note that I'm non-HotS player but from what I've watched, one of the main problems of TvZ is that Terran wants to deny creep as early as possible but zergs overrun their army. Example: Flash vs DRG
So, why doesn't creep tumor get nerfed by: 50 energy requirement/Lair/make it research. I'm not a game balance guy but I'm sure David Kim can come up with some kind of creep solution if he tries.
Reasoning behind nerf: it's currently a no-brain activity to do while it gives major advantage. At least make it harder to do. Another thing may be to reduce gained creep from a creep tumor. In other words, radius.
The creep nerf was proposed but then Mvp won an IEM mostly by beating foreign zergs and the change was dropped.
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On October 17 2013 02:40 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:46 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:40 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:33 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:
[quote]
Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf?
Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger. And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game. I would agree that mines are not overpowered. I think the proposed nerf is reasonable, though. It's a closet buff to other T units, especially medivacs, in regards to friendly fire splash. I think the tank does need some further sort of buff to make up for the widowmine nerf to make it worth mixing in (I like the idea of transformation servos speeding up tank/thor/viking transformation time in addition to its current effect), but I have no issues with the widow mine nerf, even if they're not currently overpowered from a balance standpoint. So mine is not OP, but it is nerfed. Tank gets buff but is not enough to offset the nerf. But overall the mine nerf is ok? Not sure how that is logical at all. I don't think looking at a single unit is a good aproach. Mines don't exist in a vacuum. Looking at top level TvZ from the last few months, it looks as if MMMM might - yes might - be OP, but it is certainly too much of a Swiss army knife without a clearly defined counter. I've seen people switch to Ultras and being killed during the transition before thre Ultras spawn, I've seen people being killed after Ultras spawn as there was no support left, I've seen the Combo take out broodlords and infestors. I've seen RorO play masterfully - hitting with fungals, hitting with banes, creating surrounds - but die miserably to drops as he had no static defense. Something has to be done, Blizzard obviously doesn't even consider to touch the holy Marine, doesn't want to touch the Medivac, both better choices imho, so the mine it is. If this mini-nerf goes thru along with the proposed armory upgrade mergers and the tank buff, we can in the future as well expect to see at least as many Terrans at the top of rankings as the other races combined.
Back when 1-1-1 was destroying protoss, people were asking for marine nerf. Well, Blizzard said it was too much of a core unit as far as I remember. Don't expect such move from them.
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On October 17 2013 02:40 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 01:46 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:40 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:33 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:19 Fjodorov wrote:
[quote]
Have you even read blizzards reasoning behind the widow mine nerf?
Did you? Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads? Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy? What does this imply? Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger. And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game. I would agree that mines are not overpowered. I think the proposed nerf is reasonable, though. It's a closet buff to other T units, especially medivacs, in regards to friendly fire splash. I think the tank does need some further sort of buff to make up for the widowmine nerf to make it worth mixing in (I like the idea of transformation servos speeding up tank/thor/viking transformation time in addition to its current effect), but I have no issues with the widow mine nerf, even if they're not currently overpowered from a balance standpoint. So mine is not OP, but it is nerfed. Tank gets buff but is not enough to offset the nerf. But overall the mine nerf is ok? Not sure how that is logical at all. I don't think looking at a single unit is a good aproach. Mines don't exist in a vacuum. Looking at top level TvZ from the last few months, it looks as if MMMM might - yes might - be OP, but it is certainly too much of a Swiss army knife without a clearly defined counter. I've seen people switch to Ultras and being killed during the transition before thre Ultras spawn, I've seen people being killed after Ultras spawn as there was no support left, I've seen the Combo take out broodlords and infestors. I've seen RorO play masterfully - hitting with fungals, hitting with banes, creating surrounds - but die miserably to drops as he had no static defense. Something has to be done, Blizzard obviously doesn't even consider to touch the holy Marine, doesn't want to touch the Medivac, both better choices imho, so the mine it is. If this mini-nerf goes thru along with the proposed armory upgrade mergers and the tank buff, we can in the future as well expect to see at least as many Terrans at the top of rankings as the other races combined.
So where is the clear counter for muta ling bling. People complaining against 4M needs to understand that it is the only comp mobile enough to deal with MLB that doesn't have a huge down side like mech.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 17 2013 02:42 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 02:36 darkness wrote:
Note that I'm non-HotS player but from what I've watched, one of the main problems of TvZ is that Terran wants to deny creep as early as possible but zergs overrun their army. Example: Flash vs DRG
So, why doesn't creep tumor get nerfed by: 50 energy requirement/Lair/make it research. I'm not a game balance guy but I'm sure David Kim can come up with some kind of creep solution if he tries.
Reasoning behind nerf: it's currently a no-brain activity to do while it gives major advantage. At least make it harder to do. Another thing may be to reduce gained creep from a creep tumor. In other words, radius. The creep nerf was proposed but then Mvp won an IEM mostly by beating foreign zergs and the change was dropped.
And Raven buff was cancelled because of Mvp too. Damn, man, this guy alone was a bigger nerf proposer, than David Kim.
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On October 17 2013 02:45 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2013 02:40 Aiobhill wrote:On October 17 2013 01:46 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:40 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:33 vthree wrote:On October 17 2013 01:30 RampancyTW wrote:On October 17 2013 01:26 vthree wrote:On October 16 2013 23:48 LSN wrote:On October 16 2013 23:32 Fjodorov wrote:On October 16 2013 23:24 LSN wrote:
[quote]
Did you?
Do you take into consideration that blizzard doesnt reveal everything what is going on in their heads?
Did you recognize that blizzard just put some completely unnecessary protoss buffs into the testmap just to make the users of all races happy?
What does this imply?
Alot of questions to be answered. Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1 We'd like to push out the Widow Mine a little bit and bump up the Siege Tank so that bio play becomes more interesting. Ultimately, we believe a mix of Widow Mines and Siege Tanks with your bio army will be a lot more fun to watch than just Widow Mines with bio alone. With these changes they expect terrans to play bio + siege tanks + widow mines.... hehe i mean you tell me if this comes across as well thougt out and reasonable. Well I tried to explain you why it is not of any matter what they write in their statements. It is just PR which tries not to hurt anyone too much and make most people happy lol. Obvious is that I and most others wont play a game in 1 year from now where every single TvZ game is stuck on bio/mine vs bling/muta that heavily relies on lucky/unlucky mine shots with no single other altenrative in the macrogame besides these easywin offrax and 2/3 base z all-ins. I doubt this exact bio/mine vs muta/bling clash will be interesting enaugh to watch it every single game. Many people start to complain already as this is just pure brain afk mechanics vs mechanics. It is like playing chess with always the same 30 initial moves. To get back to your final question (and @thedwarf): It certainly is not. I can only repeat that it is a step by step thing blizzards needs to do. This for sure wont be the ultimate patch and therefore there is no need to cry about things beforehand when they in general go into the right direction. Nerfing mines in TvZ is the right direction in general. I think what a lot of terrans are frustrated with is that TvZ got 'looked at' due to 4M being so popular and the matchup getting stale. But what about TvP, terrans have had to try to dodge 'lucky' storms since WoL. Why hasn't storm been tweaked while Protoss gateway units get buffed ? Probably because neither of these things need to happen. Storm is far from overpowered, and gateway units would absolutely be overpowered vs. T in the early game if made any stronger. And as we can see now, mines aren't overpowered if the Zerg controls right. People complain about mines ending games with a 'huge' shot. How is that different from storm? Also, improvement of gateway units can come in as height tech upgrades so it doesn't change the early game. I would agree that mines are not overpowered. I think the proposed nerf is reasonable, though. It's a closet buff to other T units, especially medivacs, in regards to friendly fire splash. I think the tank does need some further sort of buff to make up for the widowmine nerf to make it worth mixing in (I like the idea of transformation servos speeding up tank/thor/viking transformation time in addition to its current effect), but I have no issues with the widow mine nerf, even if they're not currently overpowered from a balance standpoint. So mine is not OP, but it is nerfed. Tank gets buff but is not enough to offset the nerf. But overall the mine nerf is ok? Not sure how that is logical at all. I don't think looking at a single unit is a good aproach. Mines don't exist in a vacuum. Looking at top level TvZ from the last few months, it looks as if MMMM might - yes might - be OP, but it is certainly too much of a Swiss army knife without a clearly defined counter. I've seen people switch to Ultras and being killed during the transition before thre Ultras spawn, I've seen people being killed after Ultras spawn as there was no support left, I've seen the Combo take out broodlords and infestors. I've seen RorO play masterfully - hitting with fungals, hitting with banes, creating surrounds - but die miserably to drops as he had no static defense. Something has to be done, Blizzard obviously doesn't even consider to touch the holy Marine, doesn't want to touch the Medivac, both better choices imho, so the mine it is. If this mini-nerf goes thru along with the proposed armory upgrade mergers and the tank buff, we can in the future as well expect to see at least as many Terrans at the top of rankings as the other races combined. So where is the clear counter for muta ling bling. People complaining against 4M needs to understand that it is the only comp mobile enough to deal with MLB that doesn't have a huge down side like mech.
No clear counter either, conceded. Still three points: Terran can have the same economy with fewer workers, so bigger army cap. Terran static defense is better vs Muta/ling/bling than Zerg static d vs MMMM. And MMMM tends to trade efficiently overall and will always trade gas-efficiently, as Medivacs simply get away with boost. So without clear counter on either side cost-efficiency comes into the equation and that seems to heavily favor terran.
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On October 17 2013 01:59 _indigo_ wrote:
I honestly think Terran should get something done with the Bunker upgrade, since the upgrade is on engineering bay where there are already some of the most important upgrades in the game.
Are we really supposed to upgrade bunker to 6 slots @ 25 min when we have 3-3 done? I think Neosteel upgrade (for 6 slots) should be an orbital drop that uses energy just like mules and scan. To balance the bunker rush with neosteel drop you would, for example, need to build engineering bay first to unluck the neosteel drop.
What do terrans and non-terrans think about this? Should this upgrade increase bunker HP aswell maybe?
I would've said to make engineering bays cheaper so that building a seperate bay for these upgrades do not hurt that much, but then I thought of engi bay blocks.
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EPT
