On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
Yea I agree they are figuring them out.... there is so many ways to micro around it and mitigate the damage done by widow mines but what bothers me about it is that when terran had trouble with Baneling / Winfestor terran was told to just deal with it and learn how to play..... If thats the case can we say that about widow mine vs zerg? Or are they trying to be proactive because of what happened with the winfestor era.... Which in all honesty was ZvZ finals every tournament for liek 2 straight months .... now though we are having a mix of finals so where are we seeing widow mines being a true balance problem?
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.
Everyone cant use WM propery at all. Why do you think so? You can see big difference even among pros regarding WM usage and how good they are at it. It was much easier to play a good positional game with siege tanks in WoL because you can actually find individual tanks among your marines ^^
Seriously though, your arguement can be said about banelings aswell. Anyone can a-move banelings but how many can split like innovation? Banelings are extremely cost efficient a lot of the times at lower levels.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.
Everyone cant use WM propery at all. Why do you think so? You can see big difference even among pros regarding WM usage and how good they are at it. It was much easier to play a good positional game with siege tanks in WoL because you can actually find individual tanks among your marines ^^
Seriously though, your arguement can be said about banelings aswell. Anyone can a-move banelings but how many can split like innovation? Banelings are extremely cost efficient a lot of the times at lower levels.
I agree, but without em we cant deal with marines, it was the main reason they were created for. What was the reason behind WM creation? As for friendly fire... I had no games, where it made a difference.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
On October 16 2013 21:47 Pirfiktshon wrote: Yea I agree they are figuring them out.... there is so many ways to micro around it and mitigate the damage done by widow mines but what bothers me about it is that when terran had trouble with Baneling / Winfestor terran was told to just deal with it and learn how to play..... If thats the case can we say that about widow mine vs zerg? Or are they trying to be proactive because of what happened with the winfestor era.... Which in all honesty was ZvZ finals every tournament for liek 2 straight months .... now though we are having a mix of finals so where are we seeing widow mines being a true balance problem?
Lolwut? Did blizzard not nerf the infestor hard in hots? They were just unwilling to change anything in wol as hots already addressed the issue. Why the fuck does every terran feel like they are the victim race here? Did your race not win the most tournaments? Just because you fucking suck at this game doesn't mean it's blizzards fault.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
Not Terrans' fault if all their options have been either nuked or simply lose to 90 drones + creep galore + Hive rush.
On October 16 2013 22:02 wishr wrote: I agree, but without em we cant deal with marines, it was the main reason they were created for. What was the reason behind WM creation?
To help mech deal with mutas and allow for safer openings.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
I don't think todays games between Sleep and Fantasy were boring at all despite seeing each player do the same builds + Show Spoiler +
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
I don't think todays games between Sleep and Fantasy were boring at all despite seeing each player do the same builds + Show Spoiler +
3 games in a row
Well I'm starting to notice I'm enjoying the games much more if something different happens. I really enjoyed the battlecruiser game of dream vs keen for example. I'd just love to see mech, bio tank mine, bio tank and bio mine all be possible in the match up, with more lategame transitions involving ghosts and ravens aswell. That'd be awesome, and I guess a widow mine nerf is required before this can happen.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.
You just described terran having to split marines against zerg a-move and fungals in WoL.
It wasn't a problem then so it shouldn't be a problem now.
Please for the love of god let's establish one thing: Nobody ever can just a move and win unless they are really fucking far ahead. A moving does not happen all that much on pro level if at all. Just because you can offrace on a shitty foreign server and get diamond a moving around with a race you dislike doesn't mean it's actually viable, it wasn't even at the end of wol (and i didn't even play zerg in wol).
I do agree however that how "easy" or "hard' it feels for anyone to do x compared to what the other race has to do is complete and utter bs. This is a game with 3 different races and in almost every situation both sides have to do completely different things, so unless you talk about something like mech vs bio in tvt you really should never take into account how "easy" it seems for the other guy. On top of that I can guarantee you that microing against anti-mine micro is, just like microing against mines in the first place, not an easy task to accomplish. TBH I think, despite a mine that doesn't die after shooting being a major design flaw that mines actually add a lot to the game and we definitely need more units that allow both sides to micro.
The thing is that with the infestor in WoL and fungal in particular it took a long time for everyone to pretty much agree that it was OP at in the end nobody could deny it. WM started off being considered OP but this has changed as time as gone by the notion the OP WM has slowly diminished among players and fans. The discussion about is quite small if it was considered to strong so imo we should wait.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
TvZ can still be very entertaining but I agree that it has become to predictable with terran having one way of playing TvP and one way of playing TvZ. But if you want to change this by nerfing the WM then you will need to do more than increase the siege tanks attack speed by a tiny bit.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
TvZ can still be very entertaining but I agree that it has become to predictable with terran having one way of playing TvP and one way of playing TvZ. But if you want to change this by nerfing the WM then you will need to do more than increase the siege tanks attack speed by a tiny bit.
yes agreed. or maybe reconsider the muta buffs that were reactionary to the strength of the widow mines. Or a combination of both. I don't really like the kind of muta plays in PvZ anyways, so I'd be all for nerfing the mutas along with the widow mines.
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.
You just described terran having to split marines against zerg a-move and fungals in WoL.
It wasn't a problem then so it shouldn't be a problem now.
Please for the love of god let's establish one thing: Nobody ever can just a move and win unless they are really fucking far ahead. A moving does not happen all that much on pro level if at all. Just because you can offrace on a shitty foreign server and get diamond a moving around with a race you dislike doesn't mean it's actually viable, it wasn't even at the end of wol (and i didn't even play zerg in wol).
On October 16 2013 21:47 Pirfiktshon wrote: Yea I agree they are figuring them out.... there is so many ways to micro around it and mitigate the damage done by widow mines but what bothers me about it is that when terran had trouble with Baneling / Winfestor terran was told to just deal with it and learn how to play..... If thats the case can we say that about widow mine vs zerg? Or are they trying to be proactive because of what happened with the winfestor era.... Which in all honesty was ZvZ finals every tournament for liek 2 straight months .... now though we are having a mix of finals so where are we seeing widow mines being a true balance problem?
Lolwut? Did blizzard not nerf the infestor hard in hots? They were just unwilling to change anything in wol as hots already addressed the issue. Why the fuck does every terran feel like they are the victim race here? Did your race not win the most tournaments? Just because you fucking suck at this game doesn't mean it's blizzards fault.
First off remove the Pole you sit on that makes you so unbelievably hostile toward everyone.... I do not feel like a victim race Everytime they Nerf/buff something in TvZ it seems to have an EXTREME effect on the match up whether the buff to infestor or the losefestor they made now though they are trying to balance it I don't believe this action is actually merited do you? ( Try not to answer by insulting anyone and everyone and have a discussion instead mmmk?)
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote: I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?
Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
TvZ can still be very entertaining but I agree that it has become to predictable with terran having one way of playing TvP and one way of playing TvZ. But if you want to change this by nerfing the WM then you will need to do more than increase the siege tanks attack speed by a tiny bit.
yes agreed. or maybe reconsider the muta buffs that were reactionary to the strength of the widow mines. Or a combination of both. I don't really like the kind of muta plays in PvZ anyways, so I'd be all for nerfing the mutas along with the widow mines.
Mutalisk buff were mostly a reaction to the medivacs boost I believe . To be honest I believe that protoss player have way more right complain about mutalisk than terran.
Anyway, I'm just throwing this but I would like to see a test with a buff of late game unit like thor or BC for terran, in exchange for a slightly higher gas cost. That way, with the buff you would see more transition from bio mines to late game units since in these situation terran usually build up a gas bank, while a higher gas cost would prevent turtle/passive play behind Planetary/turrets to occures. thoughts?
EPT
