• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:14
CEST 23:14
KST 06:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202545RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 622 users

Balance Test map Changes - Page 19

Forum Index > SC2 General
674 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 34 Next All
ReachTheSky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3294 Posts
October 16 2013 12:38 GMT
#361
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly
TL+ Member
Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
October 16 2013 12:47 GMT
#362
Yea I agree they are figuring them out.... there is so many ways to micro around it and mitigate the damage done by widow mines but what bothers me about it is that when terran had trouble with Baneling / Winfestor terran was told to just deal with it and learn how to play..... If thats the case can we say that about widow mine vs zerg? Or are they trying to be proactive because of what happened with the winfestor era.... Which in all honesty was ZvZ finals every tournament for liek 2 straight months .... now though we are having a mix of finals so where are we seeing widow mines being a true balance problem?
wishr
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-16 12:49:08
October 16 2013 12:47 GMT
#363
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?

Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.
* Only girls complain about balance! *
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
October 16 2013 12:58 GMT
#364
On October 16 2013 21:47 wishr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?

Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.


Everyone cant use WM propery at all. Why do you think so? You can see big difference even among pros regarding WM usage and how good they are at it. It was much easier to play a good positional game with siege tanks in WoL because you can actually find individual tanks among your marines ^^

Seriously though, your arguement can be said about banelings aswell. Anyone can a-move banelings but how many can split like innovation? Banelings are extremely cost efficient a lot of the times at lower levels.
DusTerr
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
2520 Posts
October 16 2013 13:00 GMT
#365
On October 16 2013 21:47 wishr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?

Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.

Not everyone...
wishr
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation262 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-16 13:03:03
October 16 2013 13:02 GMT
#366
On October 16 2013 21:58 Fjodorov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:47 wishr wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?

Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.


Everyone cant use WM propery at all. Why do you think so? You can see big difference even among pros regarding WM usage and how good they are at it. It was much easier to play a good positional game with siege tanks in WoL because you can actually find individual tanks among your marines ^^

Seriously though, your arguement can be said about banelings aswell. Anyone can a-move banelings but how many can split like innovation? Banelings are extremely cost efficient a lot of the times at lower levels.

I agree, but without em we cant deal with marines, it was the main reason they were created for. What was the reason behind WM creation?
As for friendly fire... I had no games, where it made a difference.
* Only girls complain about balance! *
Jerom
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands588 Posts
October 16 2013 13:02 GMT
#367
On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly

not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3682 Posts
October 16 2013 13:04 GMT
#368
On October 16 2013 21:47 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Yea I agree they are figuring them out.... there is so many ways to micro around it and mitigate the damage done by widow mines but what bothers me about it is that when terran had trouble with Baneling / Winfestor terran was told to just deal with it and learn how to play..... If thats the case can we say that about widow mine vs zerg? Or are they trying to be proactive because of what happened with the winfestor era.... Which in all honesty was ZvZ finals every tournament for liek 2 straight months .... now though we are having a mix of finals so where are we seeing widow mines being a true balance problem?


Lolwut? Did blizzard not nerf the infestor hard in hots? They were just unwilling to change anything in wol as hots already addressed the issue. Why the fuck does every terran feel like they are the victim race here? Did your race not win the most tournaments? Just because you fucking suck at this game doesn't mean it's blizzards fault.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
October 16 2013 13:06 GMT
#369
On October 16 2013 22:02 Jerom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly

not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.

Not Terrans' fault if all their options have been either nuked or simply lose to 90 drones + creep galore + Hive rush.
pmp10
Profile Joined April 2012
3318 Posts
October 16 2013 13:06 GMT
#370
On October 16 2013 22:02 wishr wrote:
I agree, but without em we cant deal with marines, it was the main reason they were created for. What was the reason behind WM creation?
To help mech deal with mutas and allow for safer openings.
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
October 16 2013 13:06 GMT
#371
On October 16 2013 22:02 Jerom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly

not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.

I don't think todays games between Sleep and Fantasy were boring at all despite seeing each player do the same builds + Show Spoiler +
3 games in a row
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
October 16 2013 13:22 GMT
#372
On October 16 2013 21:47 wishr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?

Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.

You just described terran having to split marines against zerg a-move and fungals in WoL.

It wasn't a problem then so it shouldn't be a problem now.
Jerom
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands588 Posts
October 16 2013 13:30 GMT
#373
On October 16 2013 22:06 y0su wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 22:02 Jerom wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly

not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.

I don't think todays games between Sleep and Fantasy were boring at all despite seeing each player do the same builds + Show Spoiler +
3 games in a row

Well I'm starting to notice I'm enjoying the games much more if something different happens. I really enjoyed the battlecruiser game of dream vs keen for example. I'd just love to see mech, bio tank mine, bio tank and bio mine all be possible in the match up, with more lategame transitions involving ghosts and ravens aswell. That'd be awesome, and I guess a widow mine nerf is required before this can happen.
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3682 Posts
October 16 2013 13:30 GMT
#374
On October 16 2013 22:22 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:47 wishr wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?

Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.

You just described terran having to split marines against zerg a-move and fungals in WoL.

It wasn't a problem then so it shouldn't be a problem now.


Please for the love of god let's establish one thing: Nobody ever can just a move and win unless they are really fucking far ahead. A moving does not happen all that much on pro level if at all. Just because you can offrace on a shitty foreign server and get diamond a moving around with a race you dislike doesn't mean it's actually viable, it wasn't even at the end of wol (and i didn't even play zerg in wol).

I do agree however that how "easy" or "hard' it feels for anyone to do x compared to what the other race has to do is complete and utter bs. This is a game with 3 different races and in almost every situation both sides have to do completely different things, so unless you talk about something like mech vs bio in tvt you really should never take into account how "easy" it seems for the other guy. On top of that I can guarantee you that microing against anti-mine micro is, just like microing against mines in the first place, not an easy task to accomplish. TBH I think, despite a mine that doesn't die after shooting being a major design flaw that mines actually add a lot to the game and we definitely need more units that allow both sides to micro.
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
October 16 2013 13:30 GMT
#375
The thing is that with the infestor in WoL and fungal in particular it took a long time for everyone to pretty much agree that it was OP at in the end nobody could deny it. WM started off being considered OP but this has changed as time as gone by the notion the OP WM has slowly diminished among players and fans. The discussion about is quite small if it was considered to strong so imo we should wait.
Fjodorov
Profile Joined December 2011
5007 Posts
October 16 2013 13:37 GMT
#376
On October 16 2013 22:02 Jerom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly

not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.


TvZ can still be very entertaining but I agree that it has become to predictable with terran having one way of playing TvP and one way of playing TvZ. But if you want to change this by nerfing the WM then you will need to do more than increase the siege tanks attack speed by a tiny bit.
Jerom
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands588 Posts
October 16 2013 13:40 GMT
#377
On October 16 2013 22:37 Fjodorov wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 22:02 Jerom wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly

not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.


TvZ can still be very entertaining but I agree that it has become to predictable with terran having one way of playing TvP and one way of playing TvZ. But if you want to change this by nerfing the WM then you will need to do more than increase the siege tanks attack speed by a tiny bit.

yes agreed. or maybe reconsider the muta buffs that were reactionary to the strength of the widow mines. Or a combination of both. I don't really like the kind of muta plays in PvZ anyways, so I'd be all for nerfing the mutas along with the widow mines.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
October 16 2013 13:45 GMT
#378
On October 16 2013 22:30 Lorch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 22:22 Bagi wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:47 wishr wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?

Too cost-efficient. The problem is: everyone can use WMs properly, but not everyone can hold this.

You just described terran having to split marines against zerg a-move and fungals in WoL.

It wasn't a problem then so it shouldn't be a problem now.


Please for the love of god let's establish one thing: Nobody ever can just a move and win unless they are really fucking far ahead. A moving does not happen all that much on pro level if at all. Just because you can offrace on a shitty foreign server and get diamond a moving around with a race you dislike doesn't mean it's actually viable, it wasn't even at the end of wol (and i didn't even play zerg in wol).

You might be interesting in reading this.
Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
October 16 2013 13:50 GMT
#379
On October 16 2013 22:04 Lorch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 21:47 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Yea I agree they are figuring them out.... there is so many ways to micro around it and mitigate the damage done by widow mines but what bothers me about it is that when terran had trouble with Baneling / Winfestor terran was told to just deal with it and learn how to play..... If thats the case can we say that about widow mine vs zerg? Or are they trying to be proactive because of what happened with the winfestor era.... Which in all honesty was ZvZ finals every tournament for liek 2 straight months .... now though we are having a mix of finals so where are we seeing widow mines being a true balance problem?


Lolwut? Did blizzard not nerf the infestor hard in hots? They were just unwilling to change anything in wol as hots already addressed the issue. Why the fuck does every terran feel like they are the victim race here? Did your race not win the most tournaments? Just because you fucking suck at this game doesn't mean it's blizzards fault.


First off remove the Pole you sit on that makes you so unbelievably hostile toward everyone.... I do not feel like a victim race Everytime they Nerf/buff something in TvZ it seems to have an EXTREME effect on the match up whether the buff to infestor or the losefestor they made now though they are trying to balance it I don't believe this action is actually merited do you? ( Try not to answer by insulting anyone and everyone and have a discussion instead mmmk?)
Vanadiel
Profile Joined April 2012
France961 Posts
October 16 2013 13:50 GMT
#380
On October 16 2013 22:40 Jerom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 22:37 Fjodorov wrote:
On October 16 2013 22:02 Jerom wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:38 ReachTheSky wrote:
On October 16 2013 21:36 Fjodorov wrote:
I wish they would hold off on the WM nerf. I just dont see how its justified. Does anyone see how?


Its not justified. Good players know how to handle widow mines, its just the noobs who whine when faced with an issue rather than trying to figure out a way is the real issue at hand. I've watched so many streams lately of top level terrans. All i see is good zergs smashing it ez. Widow mines aren't an issue if you handle them properly

not in terms of balance. But TvZ has boiled down to one build, one style of playing. Its getting boring.


TvZ can still be very entertaining but I agree that it has become to predictable with terran having one way of playing TvP and one way of playing TvZ. But if you want to change this by nerfing the WM then you will need to do more than increase the siege tanks attack speed by a tiny bit.

yes agreed. or maybe reconsider the muta buffs that were reactionary to the strength of the widow mines. Or a combination of both. I don't really like the kind of muta plays in PvZ anyways, so I'd be all for nerfing the mutas along with the widow mines.



Mutalisk buff were mostly a reaction to the medivacs boost I believe . To be honest I believe that protoss player have way more right complain about mutalisk than terran.

Anyway, I'm just throwing this but I would like to see a test with a buff of late game unit like thor or BC for terran, in exchange for a slightly higher gas cost. That way, with the buff you would see more transition from bio mines to late game units since in these situation terran usually build up a gas bank, while a higher gas cost would prevent turtle/passive play behind Planetary/turrets to occures. thoughts?
Prev 1 17 18 19 20 21 34 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 12h 46m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .280
Nathanias 219
BRAT_OK 48
ForJumy 31
MindelVK 0
StarCraft: Brood War
Sexy 26
Bale 7
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1131
Foxcn315
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe81
Liquid`Ken10
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu489
Other Games
tarik_tv7131
summit1g4062
Grubby3592
FrodaN1518
C9.Mang0180
Sick41
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV16
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta74
• StrangeGG 64
• HeavenSC 41
• poizon28 39
• musti20045 37
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 43
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22653
League of Legends
• Doublelift2157
• TFBlade832
Other Games
• imaqtpie1275
• Shiphtur408
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
12h 46m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 13h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.