EPTBalance Test map Changes - Page 17
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Sc2Corpse
United States210 Posts
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:23 FuKcYeAh wrote: Well im not a pro player but i think that a Tank Buff would not help Terrans much. Ling/Baneling Muta is like maximum mobility and harass. Nonstop Marine/Widowmine pressure seems like the only way to prevent at least some Muta harass keeping the Zerg busy. Somehow got the feeling that ppl tend to forget that Widowmines are a two-edged-sword, a slight mistake in positioning and they blow up parts of the Terran army aswell. If Mines need to get nerfed , Terrans need something very mobile that can put up a fight against Ling/Baneling Muta ... Tanks just wont work i guess. Stationary def. isnt a very good option to prevent Muta harass after they reached a critical mass. But as i said ... preventing that harass and pressure/critical mass today is archived by using a very mobile Marine/Widowmine army. Nerfing that composition will leave a gap that Mechplay or additional Tanks can not fill. My idea would be --> to give Hellions (after Blue Flame research wich should be more expensive then) the splash-flame-style of Hellbats. So you could get a very mobile but fragile splashdamage addition to your army that requires good positioning and being vurnerable to Mutas , so you still should have Marines and nerfed Windowmines in your Army. WMs would be extremely useful against muta, even with this nerf. Because u need stack muta to kill WMs. Also, many of my opponents found a good way to add thors to help with stacked mutas - this composition did pretty well vs me. | ||
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FuKcYeAh
Germany7 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:26 wishr wrote: WMs would be extremely useful against muta, even with this nerf. Because u need stack muta to kill WMs. Also, many of my opponents found a good way to add thors to help with stacked mutas - this composition did pretty well vs me. But Thors are not very mobile and i really think mobility is the critical point in the TvZ matchup. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:04 wishr wrote: I feel like balance is P>T>Z>P in current meta. And it is pretty ok. And the actual balance is currently P=T=Z. | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:28 FuKcYeAh wrote: But Thors are not very mobile and i really think mobility is the critical point in the TvZ matchup. This. Its also part of the reason why tanks suck (even if they get +10% attack speed) in this matchup. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:23 Zarahtra wrote: Well that's not really comparable though. I'd argue as mech it's pretty much auto win if a zerg goes mutas since he can't actually tech switch in time for your push. Also if he does go mutas he's not constantly making them, as soon as he sees you're meching he is tech switching out of them, leaving you with like 10-14 mutas to deal with. Turret spam is more often than not against drops. Mutas vs Mech is not aut win for Terran player if properly controlled by decent Zerg player. We can elaborate on this if you want. Strong Turret rings works as key protection for mech whole game. It starts with basic mineral line defense, then protects your production and edges to deny Mutas sniping anything. Then it of course works as anti-drop defense, though it is not enough, you actually need Sensor Tower and split your army. Going on, it works as nydus spotter and overseer denial (often Zerg player wants to know when and if you are going for Ravens). As games goes on, it is good idea to further strenghten your Turret rings, because any form of what I mentioned already can be done with more units, or faster. Next thing is, you want strong Turret ring in case of heavy Muta switch (1 Thor popping around 5-6 Turrets is enough most of the time, 3-4 Thors popping around no Turret is not enough often). Also, good Zerg players will often bring Vipers to blind your Turrets and doom drop you, or fly Mutas in and kill everything. So you not only need good amount of Turrets, but also good spread of them and Sensor Tower to scan immediately what is going on there.. There are probably some situations I forgot to mention, but I think that is pretty much it. | ||
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:28 FuKcYeAh wrote: But Thors are not very mobile and i really think mobility is the critical point in the TvZ matchup. They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. | ||
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FuKcYeAh
Germany7 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:40 wishr wrote: They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. But will nerfed Widowmines still do the job properly ? | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:35 Everlong wrote: Mutas vs Mech is not aut win for Terran player if properly controlled by decent Zerg player. We can elaborate on this if you want. Strong Turret rings works as key protection for mech whole game. It starts with basic mineral line defense, then protects your production and edges to deny Mutas sniping anything. Then it of course works as anti-drop defense, though it is not enough, you actually need Sensor Tower and split your army. Going on, it works as nydus spotter and overseer denial (often Zerg player wants to know when and if you are going for Ravens). As games goes on, it is good idea to further strenghten your Turret rings, because any form of what I mentioned already can be done with more units, or faster. Next thing is, you want strong Turret ring in case of heavy Muta switch (1 Thor popping around 5-6 Turrets is enough most of the time, 3-4 Thors popping around no Turret is not enough often). Also, good Zerg players will often bring Vipers to blind your Turrets and doom drop you, or fly Mutas in and kill everything. So you not only need good amount of Turrets, but also good spread of them and Sensor Tower to scan immediately what is going on there.. There are probably some situations I forgot to mention, but I think that is pretty much it. Well I can only say a 3 base muta hits at like 10-11min, I push out at like 14-15 if I see mutas. I've yet to meet anyone that can stop ~3 tanks, ~5 thors and a shitton of hellbats. 2 base mutas are a bit more frustrating to deal with admittedly since they hit earlier when your infrastructure isn't really done. So yeah, I really don't see how a player can hurt you with mutas unless he catches you completely with your pants down(or you have your hellbats clumped against blings into lings massacring your tanks/thors). This is at mid-high master. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:44 Zarahtra wrote: Well I can only say a 3 base muta hits at like 10-11min, I push out at like 14-15 if I see mutas. I've yet to meet anyone that can stop ~3 tanks, ~5 thors and a shitton of hellbats. 2 base mutas are a bit more frustrating to deal with admittedly since they hit earlier when your infrastructure isn't really done. So yeah, I really don't see how a player can hurt you with mutas unless he catches you completely with your pants down(or you have your hellbats clumped against blings into lings massacring your tanks/thors). This is at mid-high master. Oh you are talking specifically about some kind of 2 base mech push? I've been stopped doing this many times. Do you build 3rd CC or not? Because if you don't, it is really easy for Zerg to say what you are doing. In such case, he only needs to slow your push a little bit and then overrun you with superior unit production. The best way to do this is counterattack as soon as you leave your base and snipe reinforcements with Mutas. At this point, you are pretty much allin. He could either go for your Thors, then win with Mutas, or just overpower you with Roaches, which he should have by the time he realises you are going mech. | ||
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Swift[SG]
Singapore7 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:43 FuKcYeAh wrote: But will nerfed Widowmines still do the job properly ? Ye, because we stack mutas. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:52 Psychobabas wrote: Honestly, I think the biggest problem at the moment is PvZ and how Protoss is pretty much forced to do some 2 base allin or just die to mass mutalisks or swarm hosts. Thats plain wrong. Watch JD stream : when he goes mass mutalisks techswitch, it's almost always a closed game. Because of his amazing muta micro, he often wins, thought. Watch Naniwa vs Life : Naniwa just destroyed Life Swarmhosts. And the mass BL/SH/Corruptor that some EU zergs have been using are not really efficient. They are destroyed a lot of times. ZvP is balanced. | ||
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FuKcYeAh
Germany7 Posts
Well , maybe it works for pure muta harass but on the open field with tons of lings banelings inbetween ? Leftover Mines or open field Mines are useless without a bunch of Marines protecting em against Muta but this is where the whole discussion about Terran mobility comes back in. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:52 Psychobabas wrote: Honestly, I think the biggest problem at the moment is PvZ and how Protoss is pretty much forced to do some 2 base allin or just die to mass mutalisks or swarm hosts. Am I the only one that sees 3base Protoss in most pro-PvZs? 3base air play, 3base colossus play, 3base timing attack... Not to mention that I don't see any working swarm host play apart from Turtilon Wastes. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12589 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:52 Psychobabas wrote: Honestly, I think the biggest problem at the moment is PvZ and how Protoss is pretty much forced to do some 2 base allin or just die to mass mutalisks or swarm hosts. You need to look up Sora's build. A (seemingly) safe quick third, good scouting for constant search of transitions, and very very solid results vs zerg in macro games, even the strongest zergs. I'm not saying you're going to get the same results, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. I've seen Artosis try it on stream (not that Artosis is bad or anything but I just mean he's not top world) and he was having success with it as well. | ||
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cenk_unger
49 Posts
On October 16 2013 18:37 Nebuchad wrote: You need to look up Sora's build. A (seemingly) safe quick third, good scouting for constant search of transitions, and very very solid results vs zerg in macro games, even the strongest zergs. I'm not saying you're going to get the same results, but it's certainly a step in the right direction. I've seen Artosis try it on stream (not that Artosis is bad or anything but I just mean he's not top world) and he was having success with it as well. I second that. Not saying it's impossible to get a 3rd in PvZ but it's certainly not uncommon. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On October 16 2013 17:50 Everlong wrote: Oh you are talking specifically about some kind of 2 base mech push? I've been stopped doing this many times. Do you build 3rd CC or not? Because if you don't, it is really easy for Zerg to say what you are doing. In such case, he only needs to slow your push a little bit and then overrun you with superior unit production. The best way to do this is counterattack as soon as you leave your base and snipe reinforcements with Mutas. At this point, you are pretty much allin. He could either go for your Thors, then win with Mutas, or just overpower you with Roaches, which he should have by the time he realises you are going mech. I build a 3rd, it's not an allin but a response to seeing muta tech. The point I'm making is that roaches in enough numbers won't be out in time and without any upgrades. By the time he has the numbers to actually fight you, you are on his side of the map, usually sieged up at his 3rd killing it. If he tries to snipe your reinforcement that's fine, you just kill his 3rd and nat easier, heck when the next set of thors pops out you just pull workers and repair them and kill the mutas. Like I've said I've _never_(Edit: Nvm I remember now 2 losses when all my hellbats were clumped up and got massacred by blings) lost to someone that has opened up 3 base mutas against me going mech, thors in numbers just stomp them so hard that a wasted 1k+/1k+(along with all that time you aren't going roaches yet) you can't come back from. Ofcourse going blind mutas is moronic and doesn't happen that frequently. The main part of my first statement does however stand on it's own, mech and bio/bio mech is so different that you can't really say "I can build shittons of turrets and be fine" since that simply doesn't work for bio/bio mech. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
They dont need to be, marines+wms+turrets already provide a good static defense. this is true in theory but if your marines and your widow mines are in defensive position to stop a flock of 25-30 mutas where are your offensive units? at home ! Zerg free expo and win because you are stuck in your 3 bases to defend endless muta harass that can't be caught. | ||
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