|
On September 24 2013 04:32 freetgy wrote:
funny how ever protoss change has a thumb down, while everything else gets an up despite the other changes beeing way more critical...
The protoss buffs are pretty odd as it won't really change the playstyle of protoss. They really need to get down to it and fix the core issues with protoss. They need to dare to make bold moves, especially if they plan an off-season where they could potentially release several patches very quickly.
Every protoss should allready be getting DT's every game that goes to the late game and I doubt you'd get a stargate just to get out those mid-late-game oracles as harass when you could use warp prisms as you will always have a robo.
|
On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:25 shid0x wrote:
Heya little man you like macro ?
well we don't.
-Blizzard 2013. We got that macro thing down. We need to get back to harassing and earning those expansions. Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ? No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities. At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit.
Yaeah, i think that these changes provoke to cheese more than ever. DTs moving as fast as warp prisms? NO thanks.
Dunno if the tank change is gonna do anything. Siege deployment time will still be the same so it wont change the fact that its really hard to attack/proceed safely far out of the map. Mech will def be stronger whit combined upgrades though but it doesnt change the fact, that you wont see it in any othe matches than tvt.
|
I think they read Flash's interview about Mech being terrible, and thought "If we lose Flash, we lose SC. Quick buff the tank before he retires!"
|
"We’re seeing Oracles only being used in the early game, and not much during any other stage of the game."
this line of reasoning is the furthest thing from the truth. in pvz u can follow up an oracle with a void and control zergs creep. in pvt u can keep tabs on terrans army with revelation which makes it much easier to deal with drops because your robo tech is obviously going to be delayed. in pvp u can scout ur oppos tech path by constantly revealing their base, also oracles are extremely helpful in the lategame when you have tempests out in all 3 mus (especially in pvz)
pvp is already extremely coinflipy in the early game and this is only going to make it worse, they need to be thinking about nerfing the oracle not buffing it. dt buff is very random, i really dont understand it
and oracles are extremely common in the current meta in all 3 mus..
|
I don't understand why they would think changing the dt is neceassary the lack of options in TvP for an example doesn't lie on the protoss side so why even consider changing a unit for protoss and for what I've heard there isn't big concerns for PvZ either atleast for now.
If you nerf terran midgame you would need to give terran some way of dealing with late game zerg. I don't know how big of an impact the nerf to the radius is but I don't think the siege tank buff will help any considering the heavy mutalisk styles and the problems that comes when zerg gets hive-tech if you go for tanks. With mech getting killed by swarm hosts I really don't see that changing anything regarding mech either. Maybe boost ghost snipe to make it viable against high tech or make it so that transitioning into air gets more comfortable? I honestly don't know but I feel like that's a concern. I do feel like a big part of terran success against zerg comes from greedy play (like being able to 3cc and upgrades at once) I don't know what play will come as an result of these changes but if all these go through maybe more timing based attacks (allins) from terran? I don't know how terran will contest zerg late game if the mines were nerfed to the ground.
|
On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:25 shid0x wrote:
Heya little man you like macro ?
well we don't.
-Blizzard 2013. We got that macro thing down. We need to get back to harassing and earning those expansions. Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ? No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities. At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit.
Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins.
|
I almost gave up on them ever buffing the siege tank. This is sooooo needed. This is going into exactly the right direction, I love it.
|
Finally bold moves this game has needed so badly for so long now. The Protoss changes are a little...odd, but hey, nothing is final and its exploratory. Lovin' the boldness Blizz. Now push the limits of it. Let's get crazy!
|
On September 24 2013 04:31 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:13 Bagi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:09 SupLilSon wrote:On September 24 2013 04:05 TurboMaN wrote:
Didn't Blizzard say that they talk regularly with Progamers?
Why don't they ever show an interview saying like we discussed patch change xy with those players and they think its good to do it. The explanation comes always from David Kim and it sounds like he is the one balancing everything alone. Progamers like Morrow and I think Nerchio have vouched that Blizzard has not contacted any pros in the past. It was either a white lie or just a complete BS statement from Blizz. Its pretty obvious they dont engage the pros or else SC2 wouldnt be where it is LOL They probably haven't talked to those 2 because one of them is notoriously BM and the other hasn't been relevant in years. Its possible that Blizzard has NDAs in place with these players they choose to have balance discussions with. It's also possible that Blizzard doesn't talk to progamers at all, which is much more likely considering the shot-in-the-dark nature of their changes. If Blizzard actually talked to any pros the WoL Infestor Era would have been over in no time, even Zergs were saying it was ridiculous. And Morrow didn't just imply he hadn;t been contacted, I'm pretty sure he said he hadnt heard of any top EU pro being talked to. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I definitely remember him posting on TL about the subject.
That's not really something Blizzard is going to lie about and the more likely solution is that the progamers they talk to just don't talk about it. There is no reason to lie about it and there are tons of reasons not to.
|
On September 24 2013 04:32 freetgy wrote:
funny how ever protoss change has a thumb down, while everything else gets an up despite the other changes beeing way more critical...
Probably because they make coinflippy options even more viable. Do we want every toss to open proxy stargate in PvT because there's no risk involved or every PvP to revolve around DTs ? Build order wins aren't interesting, is it fun to watch someone die to DTs because he opened blink or to watch a proxy oracle wipe an scv line ?
|
On September 24 2013 04:36 ACrow wrote:
I almost gave up on them ever buffing the siege tank. This is sooooo needed. This is going into exactly the right direction, I love it.
Yea the terran changes seems great.I'd just like different protoss changes as these changes won't change anything really.
|
On September 24 2013 04:35 RaZorwire wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable to nerf the widow mine splash radius, but the proposed change seems WAY too harsh.
Lowering the splash radius from 1.75 to 1.1 would result in the splash area decresing from ~9.62 to ~3.80, meaning the area would only be less than 40% of what it was before the nerf.
I think a TL moderator should put it as a note above the thread, since otherwise everyone that passed sixth grade mathematics will feel the need to mention this. 
|
These changes are at least cool. Hopefully burrow movement will be useful and we can see more tanks. Idk how effective the toss changes will be though.
|
On September 24 2013 04:35 TT1 wrote:
"We’re seeing Oracles only being used in the early game, and not much during any other stage of the game."
this line of reasoning is the furthest thing from the truth. in pvz u can follow up an oracle with a void and control zergs creep. in pvt u can keep tabs of terrans army with revelation which makes it much easier to deal with drops because your robo tech is obviously going to be delayed. in pvp u can scout ur oppos tech path by constantly revealing their base, also oracles are extremely helpful in the lategame when you have tempests out in all 3 mus (especially in pvz)
pvp is already extremely coinflipy in the early game and this is only going to make it worse, they need to be thinking about nerfing the oracle not buffing it. dt buff is very random, i really dont understand it
Well yea, the Oracle is a useful unit in the mid and late game, but you only ever see it being used if an Oracle is 'leftover' from the early game. People very rarely make Oracles in mid-game onwards except for Tempests. I think the change is pretty silly but I can see the reasoning, if the Oracle is cheaper then people might be more inclined to make them for scouting/revelation.
|
On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:On September 24 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:25 shid0x wrote:
Heya little man you like macro ?
well we don't.
-Blizzard 2013. We got that macro thing down. We need to get back to harassing and earning those expansions. Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ? No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities. At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit. Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins.
Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going.
|
On September 24 2013 04:06 clitvin wrote:
I think people are not realizing the extent of the mine nerf.
Basic math for area of a circle of 1.1 radius vs 1.75
New area: 3.8
Old Area: 9.6
That's almost 3 times smaller.
wow. I definitely think that's an overnerf. The area being 1.5 times smaller would be much better imo. Something like 7.0, just to test it first.
Like the tank nerf, and the roach tunneling claws buff.
Don't like the protoss nerfs. I get the point of wanting to buff their ability to do stuff else than deathball, but these things just promote the cheesy part of DT's and oracles. Give them an upgrade at the dark shrine and fleet beacon, that makes them worth building in lategame, rather than this.
|
On September 24 2013 04:05 TT1 wrote:
theyre thinking about buffing the only coinflippy elements of pvp...............
/facepalm
The changes could mess up PvP, but it's at the expense of trying to diversify other matches. They are willing to take that risk just like they did with the Muta speed upgrade semi-breaking ZvZ. Later they patched to correct.
|
Those new Tanks and DT's seem way too strong. Tank buff OR upgrade buff make sense. Tank buff only sounds better due the decisions behind upgrades.
|
- Combining mech upgrades : No
- Widow mine nerf : Yes
- Tank buff : Yes
- Oracle buff : No
- DT buff : No
- Roach buff : Yes
So, why is that? Having a strategy that dominates completely another one for a race is a bad idea (tank, mines) but it should be a tradeoff between the strategies, not just a straight buff (mech upgrades).
Buffs should be very careful about not making allins much stronger (oracle), if you want a late game usage of a unit, do a late game upgrade (oracle, reaper).
Don't do random upgrades do an otherwise perfectly fine unit (DT), but fix unit skills that are underused (roach)
Edit : About the mine nerf, what should be important is that for "large" units such as roaches, stalkers, etc... the large unit and all the immediately adjacent units are still hit with a radius of 1.1. But for "small" units such as zerglings and banelings, widow mines should be less stupidly cost effective
|
They are buffing Protoss Gimmicks and not giving any solid unit upgrades.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
