Lets see how much of this is true. STX Soul disbanding turned into stx dropping the sponsorship and a new team for gstl afterall. I just really hope the downsizing sc2 teams part isn't true, I mean what do you want with 5-6 players if kespa strength has always been having a lot of practice partners/b teamers.
Let me know if I missed anything, or if you want it formatted differently. I figured I'd save everyone time by summarizing instead of posting the actual tweets.
This looks like KeSPA chairman cleaning e-sports house in Korea. However, it's pretty obvious we will never get a SC2 proleague as similar as before, maybe not even compared the season just finished. It's all about LoL now.
On September 01 2013 02:01 Musicus wrote: Guess winning ATC didn't really help MVP. This means one more spot in the qualifiers for season 2, even if there are more important things now.
I don't know if the rumors are true yet but I don't think they would've played anyway
It seems very ironic that the day before all this is set to possibly occur, Nestea got married. Just seems like a dramatic cliche of events. Like the calm before the storm, or like the celebration before all the shit goes down, like in all those movies.
Well, this was to be expected. In SC2 it's not really benefical to have 10+ players in a team, with KeSPA now being run by the government it should be better for korean to join them (not having to pay 100k helps) and to the disbelieve of many ,SC2 is not the same game as BW ,so most of the really big names will NEVER be as good in SC2 as they were in BW.
ofc sad for MVP but i cant even remember last time they had a sponsor aside of razer.
On September 01 2013 02:01 Musicus wrote: Guess winning ATC didn't really help MVP. This means one more spot in the qualifiers for season 2, even if there are more important things now.
I don't know if the rumors are true yet but I don't think they would've played anyway
Hm they are listed on the site http://acer.taketv.net/ and since the travel costs are lower next season ($3,500 travel bonus from TakeTV) and the prize money is at least the same, I don't see why not. Who knows maybe the rumors aren't all true and they'll play.
So sad. This cataclysm reminds me of the old Korean WC3 stories(situations were different though). Even half of these rumors are true, the end of SC2 in Korea would be worse than WC3.
On September 01 2013 02:01 Musicus wrote: Guess winning ATC didn't really help MVP. This means one more spot in the qualifiers for season 2, even if there are more important things now.
I don't know if the rumors are true yet but I don't think they would've played anyway
Hm they are listed on the site http://acer.taketv.net/ and since the travel costs are lower next season ($3,500 travel bonus from TakeTV) and the prize money is at least the same, I don't see why not. Who knows maybe the rumors aren't all true and they'll play.
On September 01 2013 02:05 masterbreti wrote: It seems very ironic that the day before all this is set to possibly occur, Nestea got married. Just seems like a dramatic cliche of events. Like the calm before the storm, or like the celebration before all the shit goes down, like in all those movies.
It's like in Harry Potter & the Deathly Hallows Part 1! :O
On September 01 2013 02:01 Musicus wrote: Guess winning ATC didn't really help MVP. This means one more spot in the qualifiers for season 2, even if there are more important things now.
I don't know if the rumors are true yet but I don't think they would've played anyway
Hm they are listed on the site http://acer.taketv.net/ and since the travel costs are lower next season ($3,500 travel bonus from TakeTV) and the prize money is at least the same, I don't see why not. Who knows maybe the rumors aren't all true and they'll play.
Pretty much this:
윤영서 @LiquidTaeJa 3m
oh? mvp not finish? or finish? I'm confused
I know but I just heard they probably weren't going to play
Meanwhile SNM wonder why we take it as if it is fact. Well, i think everyone has learned that if anything rumors in eSports always end up being truth :D
MVP will prob not disband. Their LoL team has been getting more and more sponsors, even if they shut down sc2 div., im really doubtful that the organization will go down.
On September 01 2013 02:24 glzElectromaster wrote: MVP will prob not disband. Their LoL team has been getting more and more sponsors, even if they shut down sc2 div., im really doubtful that the organization will go down.
Well, it is RUMORED that their LoL squad will go to KHAN. But yeah, i guess they will give away their 2nd squad, while keeping MVP Ozone.
While people are saying, "there is peace and secruity," destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant women, and they will not escape. The end is nigh! Run for the hill lest you be swallowed by the Shadow.
But lo, though all may falter and fall, still I hear a voice in the dark saying, "day will come again."
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
Pretty sure this is just mock pessimism. That or the exuberant moment of ecastacy in the final moments of despair. Anyone seen the full Der Untergang/ Downfall? That final dance scene.
Shit is about to go down! The korean starcraft 2 scene really looks terrible right now. I don't understand why Koreans play so much League of Casuals. They are probably the best gaming-race in the world and so many young gamers waste their time in this terrible casualgame. :o
SC2 will not die since blizz is still supporting SC2 + 1 addon is still coming , when blizz drops sc2 support then its rip SC2, but right now everything still alright, but i guess its RIP SC2 in korea
If BBK is leaving Navi, maybe he could join Liquid. There seems to be a lot of friendly interaction between him and TLO and Liqquid clearly needs a non Zerg for all the team leagues.
On September 01 2013 02:33 Irrational_Animal wrote: If BBK is leaving Navi, maybe he could join Liquid. There seems to be a lot of friendly interaction between him and TLO and Liqquid clearly needs a non Zerg for all the team leagues.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
On September 01 2013 02:33 Irrational_Animal wrote: If BBK is leaving Navi, maybe he could join Liquid. There seems to be a lot of friendly interaction between him and TLO and Liqquid clearly needs a non Zerg for all the team leagues.
On September 01 2013 02:37 sevia wrote: Twist: These rumors are just SNM's way of getting revenge on all the people who bashed his casting for so long.
Not enough of twist. Actual twist: SNM stole NesTea's powers and will make those rumors happen should we bash him or joke about him.
I don't think I've ever seen another fandom that seems to get off so much on bad news. Anyway, keep in mind the words of Samuel Clemens "The rumors of my death were greatly exaggerated."
On September 01 2013 02:33 Irrational_Animal wrote: If BBK is leaving Navi, maybe he could join Liquid. There seems to be a lot of friendly interaction between him and TLO and Liqquid clearly needs a non Zerg for all the team leagues.
He is joigning Millenium tomorrow !
Will he be living in the team house as well?
Most likely, as any new recruit of M before. Apparently, if their new player is him (which has not been confirmed now, but we know that they are recruiting someone), he would be on contract for 3 months that would be extended after if he goes well along with the team.
On September 01 2013 02:18 insanet wrote: shouldnt this be called "SC2 Korean Cataclysm"? is not worlwide.
SC2 is nothing without Korea though.
WC3 was fine when Korea dropped it after the map scandal.
Anyways all of those are just rumors, let's see how it turns out in the end. Korean SC2 will be just fine as long as GomTV and Blizzard are still here.
If Korean pros stop playing sc2, I'm suddenly like... a LOT better at SC2 in the grand scheme... like 75% closer to being the best player in the world.
well the pros cene of this game will be in agony state within next 3-6months, thanks to idiot wcs arranges which killed even pro major and premier leagues (ipl, mlg, nasl), brought gsl mark downstate and now kills proleague. also thanks to blizzard for poor game design, no listening to REAL fans criticism and proposals (we all wanted this game to be better) and no supporting this game in times of LOL and Dota being rivals.
The end of the first step. After 7 hours the next step. - Ethan Ahn 31:8
Did you mean to type 3:18? The way it's written looks like a scripture reference. The coming of the apocalypse in chapter 31 verse 8 of the book of Ahn.
Really none of this surprises me... hots did not deliver in saving SC2, all it did was move the shitty around. Instead of BL/infestor, we now have parade pushes, void rays, and swarm hosts. Had the expansion units broadened options like the BW units did, we might see SC2 growing, but we didn't get that, we got useless units like the viper and hellbat, direct replacements like the widow mine and the swarm host, and random shit like all the protoss units.
SC2 designers really have a problem listening to their community and delivering on fun and interesting options. Instead,we get shit like 4M forever.
Blizzard will need to make LotV cheap as fuck to play if they want it to stand any chance as a sport, long-term. I just hope it's not in the LoL F2P model.
On September 01 2013 03:22 Marjosz wrote: well the pros cene of this game will be in agony state within next 3-6months, thanks to idiot wcs arranges which killed even pro major and premier leagues (ipl, mlg, nasl), brought gsl mark downstate and now kills proleague. also thanks to blizzard for poor game design, no listening to REAL fans criticism and proposals (we all wanted this game to be better) and no supporting this game in times of LOL and Dota being rivals.
Gosh , some comments are so depressing, i could violently ramm a saw up a cute kittens ass. Seriously ,this game's far from dieing and may very well serve as a wake up cccall to blizz to step up everything (imho they've done a ok job so far ,nothing amazing ,but atleast they see something's needs to be done and they're trying)
On September 01 2013 03:22 Marjosz wrote: well the pros cene of this game will be in agony state within next 3-6months, thanks to idiot wcs arranges which killed even pro major and premier leagues (ipl, mlg, nasl), brought gsl mark downstate and now kills proleague. also thanks to blizzard for poor game design, no listening to REAL fans criticism and proposals (we all wanted this game to be better) and no supporting this game in times of LOL and Dota being rivals.
On September 01 2013 03:33 Humbalumba wrote: Gosh , some comments are so depressing, i could violently ramm a saw up a cute kittens ass. Seriously ,this game's far from dieing and may very well serve as a wake up cccall to blizz to step up everything (imho they've done a ok job so far ,nothing amazing ,but atleast they see something's needs to be done and they're trying)
The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
Most of these rumors aren't bad at all, haha. Some are rumors that literally are about good things such as people not retiring, and teams working towards a sponsorship. The bad ones, most of those aren't even that bad, individual players retiring is hardly the end of the world. MVP disbanding would be a huge tragedy of course, as would be the loss of proleague, but again those are just rumors, both unsubstantiated and the person who started some of them is already backtracking:
Alex Kim @supernovamaniac 13m
Like I said, rumors are rumors, and people take it too seriously. MVP SC2 team is not disbanding.
Some, most, or even all, might come true in the end, but come on. Let's not go crazy.
The end of the first step. After 7 hours the next step. - Ethan Ahn 31:8
Did you mean to type 3:18? The way it's written looks like a scripture reference. The coming of the apocalypse in chapter 31 verse 8 of the book of Ahn.
"And just whenst it seemeth that the devil in disguise, the one who shall not be named and who was just known as the one who Laughs out Loud to the merry people of the lands of eSports, would triumph, heaven had mercy and struck the devil asunder, so the SC2 could rise again and rule the lands of Korea happily."
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
On September 01 2013 03:40 Psychobabas wrote: Not surprised.
No tours, no money, no new talent (thanks to WCS killing off any new tours).
What do you mean? IPL disbandment had nothing to do with WCS. IPL's parent company IGN was bought by a new owner. And what do you mean no new tours? Red Bull, Fragbite, Starswars, just to name a few are all getting involved.
RUMOR: Bisu to retire, Hydra to (possibly) retire RUMOR: KeSPA downsizing SC2 teams to 5-6 people / Reporter: Organizations will focus on LoL teams RUMOR: Next SC2 Proleague may be its last RUMOR: IM leaves eSF, KeSPA trying to get LG to sponsor IM RUMOR: Prime leaves eSF, hopes KeSPA can help find a sponsor
Not surprising.
RUMOR: EffOrt, RorO, and Stork not going to retire
Kind of surprising (Stork not retiring).
RUMOR: MVP dead, SC2 team disbanded, LoL squad to Samsung KHAN / NEW RUMOR: MVP SC2 NOT Disbanding
Would've been surprising if true.
RUMOR: Hyvaa not retired, just "jobless"?
Well, no reaction from me.
I know a lot of this looks really alarming at first glance, but when you break it down, it's not all that bad. Excited for Step 2 though! Let's get this Cataclysm on the road.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Losts of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
BW survived because so many people were playing it, and you could pick up the game for free, or very cheap. And you didn't need good internet to play.
IM has so many sponsors nowadays, even without LG there's some big names like Coca-Cola, Nvidia, Asrock. How come they are so dependant on getting LG as a sponsor?
On September 01 2013 03:44 pigmanbear wrote: BW survived because so many people were playing it, and you could pick up the game for free, or very cheap. And you didn't need good internet to play.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Losts of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
BW survived because so many people were playing it, and you could pick up the game for free, or very cheap. And you didn't need good internet to play.
Yeah, but then BW didn't have much of a foreign scene (WCG once a year, and TSL). This is an important detail. Sc2 does have a vibrant foreign scene, which is a huge difference to BW.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
I am so confused why people think this is the "end", i mean, say kespa drops all sc2 and all the players on that list do retire.....
So what? Sc2 started without kespa and i am sure it will do fine if they dont have it? I dunno, i still watched it before kespa came in, probably still will. The players that are retiring on that list really is not that big of a deal imo, hopefully they go play some broodwar again ^_^
the only weird thing is people leaving esf, the IM one could be the easiest rumor ever made by saying kespa can get back LG.
On September 01 2013 03:44 SgtCoDFish wrote: I swear people are actually going out of their way to look for reasons to say SC2 is dying.
It's shrinking (a bit), not dying.
People seem to have forgotten what the scene was like before KeSPA switched.
It's just going back to around that size.
Yup. If KeSPA switch over earlier, we wouldn't have teams like MVP, IM, Startale, etc. Most of these esf players came from the b-team/practice partners of KeSPA's A-team.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Are you joking me? It'll decline, because that's what all games do over time, but the foreign scene is not dependent on the Korean scene. If anything, the foreign scene is propping up the Korean scene atm.
The worst case scenario seems to me to be a War3 post-map scandal scenario in Korea, where there is pretty much no more Korean scene (i.e. very few big tournaments in Korea) but still a lot of good players in Korea. The best and most marketable Koreans are then picked up by foreign teams and flown out to compete in foreign tournaments, where they make lots of money and fly back home. Rinse and repeat for years. Story of Korean War3 players' lives, and it's already happening anyways.
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Exactly, people seem to forget that when KeSPA switched over it doubled the sc2 player base in Korea. They don't seem to remember the days when it was just the GSL folks. People weren't complaining the scene was dying when it was just the ESF teams. We are just going back to an equilibrium.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
Let me put it this way: Two Bo7s are about to start. You can watch MarineKing vs. Taeja, or Scarlett vs. Naniwa. Which do you watch? Or how about choosing Kas vs. Nerchio, or Life vs. Maru?
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
That's because region locking would still permit high-level play of a few Koreans who actually would (or already have) move to different countries to play in WCS. If there isn't any Korean scene, foreigners become less marketable, because the relevance of foreign players has always been directly proportional to their tendency to measure up against Koreans.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
That's because region locking would still permit high-level play of a few Koreans who actually would (or already have) move to different countries to play in WCS. If there isn't any Korean scene, foreigners become less marketable, because the relevance of foreign players has always been directly proportional to their tendency to measure up against Koreans.
So, now you are ignoring all the Koreans on foreign team. We have Taeja, Hero, Alive, Jaedong, Oz, Innovation, MMA, Forgg, etc. You are basically saying these Koreans aren't good as the koreans on korean teams. The Koreans on foreign teams bring a high level of play to foreign tournaments. So, I don't understand when you say we wouldn't be able to measure the foreign players to korean players.
People seem to think that the Korean scene dissolving = no more Korean players. What?
I would like to remind people that even if GSL disappeared overnight, we would be able to see players such as Polt, HerO, Mvp, Innovation (now that he is sponsored by a foreign team), JD, MC, and more compete. I am not even including the players who are technically on Korean teams but are sponsored by foreign organizations who are willing to send them overseas (such as FXO, ST, and Axiom).
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
Let me put it this way: Two Bo7s are about to start. You can watch MarineKing vs. Taeja, or Scarlett vs. Naniwa. Which do you watch? Or how about choosing Kas vs. Nerchio, or Life vs. Maru?
I personally would watch Scarlett vs. Naniwa. As to the second pick, I'd play LoL/watch LoL as opposed to watching either of those series.
Thank god for a sense of humor from the OP and the community replies with the dramatic soundtrack (and 2 hours of my life re-dedicated to my mortal combat VHS tape). You guys just made at least one day.
On September 01 2013 04:08 babylon wrote: People seem to think that the Korean scene dissolving = no more Korean players. What?
I would like to remind people that even if GSL disappeared overnight, we would be able to see players such as Polt, HerO, Mvp, Innovation (now that he is sponsored by a foreign team), JD, MC, and more compete. I am not even including the players who are technically on Korean teams but are sponsored by foreign organizations who are willing to send them overseas (such as FXO, ST, and Axiom).
Korean scene folds -> a bunch of the best talent does stop playing the game -> less tournament money -> the best players (including the best Koreans) move on to other games because they're damned good at computer games. Incredible players like HerO and ForGG aren't going to do what they do for $5k purses.
On September 01 2013 04:08 babylon wrote: People seem to think that the Korean scene dissolving = no more Korean players. What?
I would like to remind people that even if GSL disappeared overnight, we would be able to see players such as Polt, HerO, Mvp, Innovation (now that he is sponsored by a foreign team), JD, MC, and more compete. I am not even including the players who are technically on Korean teams but are sponsored by foreign organizations who are willing to send them overseas (such as FXO, ST, and Axiom).
And you can argue that result and skill level wise Koreans on foreign teams>ESF>KeSPA at the WCS season 2 finals
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
Let me put it this way: Two Bo7s are about to start. You can watch MarineKing vs. Taeja, or Scarlett vs. Naniwa. Which do you watch? Or how about choosing Kas vs. Nerchio, or Life vs. Maru?
I'm pretty sure most people would choose Scarlett vs. Naniwa because they are both doing really well lately whereas MarineKing has been doing bad and his TvT is terrible. Bad examples, but I get your point.
Honestly, I would not mind if sc2 was heading in the direction of having a smaller scene, with WCS as the focus for half a dozen team per region at max, each having 5 to 6 players.
That leaves a lot of players behind from what we currently have, but we need to start organizing the scene in a realistic manner.
These are korean rumors SNM translated for fun. They are not facts, they are not back up by anything, they are just rumors. He wanted to point out that koreans have as much drama and rumors as we do.
On September 01 2013 04:08 babylon wrote: People seem to think that the Korean scene dissolving = no more Korean players. What?
I would like to remind people that even if GSL disappeared overnight, we would be able to see players such as Polt, HerO, Mvp, Innovation (now that he is sponsored by a foreign team), JD, MC, and more compete. I am not even including the players who are technically on Korean teams but are sponsored by foreign organizations who are willing to send them overseas (such as FXO, ST, and Axiom).
And you can argue that result and skill level wise Koreans on foreign teams>ESF>KeSPA at the WCS season 2 finals
Eh. I would hesitate to draw many conclusions from just one finals. A lot of players played awful given their usual standard, while others stepped up their game drastically. But it's about consistency, not just results.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
Let me put it this way: Two Bo7s are about to start. You can watch MarineKing vs. Taeja, or Scarlett vs. Naniwa. Which do you watch? Or how about choosing Kas vs. Nerchio, or Life vs. Maru?
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
You are overestimating the importance of the foreign scene, especially at this time. Foreign scene merely provides an outlet for Korean Starcraft to the western audience.
Foreign teams sponsor Korean players, foreign tournaments feature Koreans, the (very) few relevant foreign players train/ed in Korea and are measured by Korean standards, and the far and away most prestigious tournaments and leagues are actually based in Korea.
It isn't all that different from Brood War when you think about it. The main differences being that the game is not popular in Korea to begin with, and western organizations + Blizzard spending money to bring Korean Starcraft overseas.
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Are you joking me? It'll decline, because that's what all games do over time, but the foreign scene is not dependent on the Korean scene. If anything, the foreign scene is propping up the Korean scene atm.
The worst case scenario seems to me to be a War3 post-map scandal scenario in Korea, where there is pretty much no more Korean scene (i.e. very few big tournaments in Korea) but still a lot of good players in Korea. The best and most marketable Koreans are then picked up by foreign teams and flown out to compete in foreign tournaments, where they make lots of money and fly back home. Rinse and repeat for years. Story of Korean War3 players' lives, and it's already happening anyways.
Well, don't you aggree it's would be a horrible development for the Korean scene, considering how big BW was and LoL is? Teams shrinking to a size of 5-6 players without any B-teamers would already be bad enough imo. 5-6 Players is not exactly what I would call a deep line-up for a team-league.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
Let me put it this way: Two Bo7s are about to start. You can watch MarineKing vs. Taeja, or Scarlett vs. Naniwa. Which do you watch? Or how about choosing Kas vs. Nerchio, or Life vs. Maru?
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
Let me put it this way: Two Bo7s are about to start. You can watch MarineKing vs. Taeja, or Scarlett vs. Naniwa. Which do you watch? Or how about choosing Kas vs. Nerchio, or Life vs. Maru?
Nerchio vs Kas
i suppose it would be better to stream cheat than get distracted by another game
I really like how they are setting it up. The shit might have already hit the fan, but even before that's confirmed they're gonna let us know in 7 hours how the shit might hit the fan EVEN HARDER
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
Half the reason the foreign scene is so big is that you get the best Koreans attending major events, maintaining the highest level of play, along with a few choice foreigners. Nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play. If the Korean scene collapses, these guys stop showing up at major foreign events, ergo the foreign scene becomes dull and dries up as well.
Look at the LA scene if you want to see what a foreign scene with no KR influence looks like. It ain't pretty.
What do you mean "nobody wants to watch consistently so-so play?" There's a large segment of the sc2 scene that is clamoring for region locking. Don't you see all the TL, twitter, and reddit post about people saying that WCS should be region locked, etc.
Let me put it this way: Two Bo7s are about to start. You can watch MarineKing vs. Taeja, or Scarlett vs. Naniwa. Which do you watch? Or how about choosing Kas vs. Nerchio, or Life vs. Maru?
On September 01 2013 04:08 babylon wrote: People seem to think that the Korean scene dissolving = no more Korean players. What?
I would like to remind people that even if GSL disappeared overnight, we would be able to see players such as Polt, HerO, Mvp, Innovation (now that he is sponsored by a foreign team), JD, MC, and more compete. I am not even including the players who are technically on Korean teams but are sponsored by foreign organizations who are willing to send them overseas (such as FXO, ST, and Axiom).
And you can argue that result and skill level wise Koreans on foreign teams>ESF>KeSPA at the WCS season 2 finals
You'd have to be pretty silly to think that one tournament, at which a lot of people played pretty poorly compared to their usual standard, establishes that foreigner-team Koreans are Code S level in any great number or consistent sense.
On September 01 2013 03:38 pigmanbear wrote: The writing is definitely on the wall for SC2, though I think there will be decent purses for the next 12-18 months (optimistically). The real question is, when do we see a modern competitor? I know I'm not the only one who is only interested in competitive RTS where managing economies and armies are important, and not pure micro, single-player on team games like DOTA and LOL.
I don't fear for the fall of SC2, Blizzard brought that on itself by forcing the game through Blizzard servers. If they distributed SC2 like they did SC1/BW, obviously people would copy it for free and it could rival BW as the ubiquitous RTS over time.
What I find worrying is the prospect that SC2 is the last even semi-popular RTS, and that people who enjoy these games are dinosaurs, like playing text adventures.
This happened in brood war many times. Lots of players retired, teams died out, teams gained new sponsors, etc. This isn't something new. And Brood war survived for 10+ years.
This is nothing like BW. Rumors are just rumors but if something this cataclysmic were to occur in SC2, the scene is nowhere near as well-funded, well-liked or deeply rooted as the BW scene. You cannot make a well-founded argument for the SC2 surviving using the BW scene as a basis for your theory.
Yes, I can. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene. You are ignoring this fact. The SC2 scene has a vibrant foreign community. Dunno why you are neglecting this fact.
No you can't. You just gave me more fodder for proving that point. BW didn't have much of a foreign scene and therefore held onto its core in Korea. In fact, there's still a decent Korean core keeping it alive in terms of competition. SC2's scene is not based in Korea but moreso in foreign areas which have historically changed with the winds rather than staying stubborn with a single idea. You are ignoring these facts which fly directly in the face of your own statement while its clear I was already well aware of them and minded them when making my statement. You cannot make a well-founded argument based on two scenes you just stated yourself are completely different in nature. If anything, I'm taking all facts into consideration while you're picking and choosing ones (very poorly at that) that you think support your own bias.
On September 01 2013 04:23 Erik.TheRed wrote: Where's R.E.M. on the song list?
I really like how they are setting it up. The shit might have already hit the fan, but even before that's confirmed they're gonna let us know in 7 hours how the shit might hit the fan EVEN HARDER
So KESPA is cutting on SC2 staff and goes full LoL. I can't blame them, as they first priority is to cater to Korean audience and SC2 isnt that popular there. Catering to foreign audience by setting up English broadcast for PL didn't work for them too, as the average numbers weren't that high. Can't blame them for that, it is the only logical move.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
The KESPA that we know before is dead. KESPA is MINISTRY OF CULTURE now. (Relabled) Before 2015 KESPA will cease to operate SC2 therefore GOM will be the ONE. KESPA SC2 players will either retire, transfernnovation or LOLed. Sad but I honestly dont see SC2 to last 6 years from now. More likely, we are at peak in SC2 era... (2013-2014)
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
On September 01 2013 04:51 riyanme wrote: The KESPA that we know before is dead. KESPA is MINISTRY OF CULTURE now. (Relabled) Before 2015 KESPA will cease to operate SC2 therefore GOM will be the ONE. KESPA SC2 players will either retire, transfernnovation or LOLed. Sad but I honestly dont see SC2 to last 6 years from now. More likely, we are at peak in SC2 era... (2013-2014)
At first I read "Kespa is Ministry of Win now" and I was like "Oh fuck me..." :D
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
hmm, imo it would be better if they (out of desperation, in a year or so) tried to create their own arcade game based on SC2BW. Or just create an arcade game with changed design choices (reworked economy etc), it's own balance but same (or similar) units and everything. Maybe that could catch interest of Korean scene...
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
Honestly, I feel like the worst news is the 'teams focus on LoL' + 'SC2 teams cut to 5-6 players' + the fact that Prime, IM then joined (all together), implying they will very soon do the same (is IM really going to dump half of their team? =/).
On September 01 2013 05:26 Aeceus wrote: This is worse than reading football rumours on twitter, you guys just pull shit out of your asses, especially SNM
The Chinese translator wooyeon, who has a great amount of connections in the Korean scene, shared her opinion on the rumors of Bisu retiring: "Personally I think any of TBLS retiring would be a devastating blow to KeSPA, I don't think KeSPA would let them go that easily. Stork, who is in a way worse shape than Bisu, isn't retiring, that could mean something, if not a big thing."
All this really means is that the Korean public isn't interested in games that have 15 minutes of inactivity leading up to 5-10 second deathball confrontations with squishy units and coinflip AOE. I'm sure Blizzard will put the right team together to produce SC3, and in 2019 we'll have our game.
On September 01 2013 05:32 digmouse wrote: The Chinese translator wooyeon, who has a great amount of connections in the Korean scene, shared her opinion on the rumors of Bisu retiring: "Personally I think any of TBLS retiring would be a devastating blow to KeSPA, I don't think KeSPA would let them go that easily. Stork, who is in a way worse shape than Bisu, isn't retiring, that could mean something, if not a big thing."
Wish this would be true. Bisu has potential to be at least as good as Jaedong in SC2.
REMEMBER THESE ARE RUMORS. i don't feel all to good on the inside right now as well, with the fear of sc2 becoming a dying game. but these are all rumors. everything that has been posted here are rumors. rumors like this are the same as with irak. when some people thought they had nukes there. lets just all keep patient and not spread the word of death before anything has been confirmed. i hope its all fake though.
On September 01 2013 05:32 digmouse wrote: The Chinese translator wooyeon, who has a great amount of connections in the Korean scene, shared her opinion on the rumors of Bisu retiring: "Personally I think any of TBLS retiring would be a devastating blow to KeSPA, I don't think KeSPA would let them go that easily. Stork, who is in a way worse shape than Bisu, isn't retiring, that could mean something, if not a big thing."
Wish this would be true. Bisu has potential to be at least as good as Jaedong in SC2.
He has definitely been getting better. I'd like to see him stick with it and see if he can break into the individual leagues
On September 01 2013 05:37 jdsowa wrote: All this really means is that the Korean public isn't interested in games that have 15 minutes of inactivity leading up to 5-10 second deathball confrontations with squishy units and coinflip AOE. I'm sure Blizzard will put the right team together to produce SC3, and in 2019 we'll have our game.
On September 01 2013 05:37 jdsowa wrote: All this really means is that the Korean public isn't interested in games that have 15 minutes of inactivity leading up to 5-10 second deathball confrontations with squishy units and coinflip AOE. I'm sure Blizzard will put the right team together to produce SC3, and in 2019 we'll have our game.
You don't watch sc2 apparently.
He exaggerates, but pretty much has the gist of the game.
On September 01 2013 05:52 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 05:37 jdsowa wrote: All this really means is that the Korean public isn't interested in games that have 15 minutes of inactivity leading up to 5-10 second deathball confrontations with squishy units and coinflip AOE. I'm sure Blizzard will put the right team together to produce SC3, and in 2019 we'll have our game.
You don't watch sc2 apparently.
He exaggerates, but pretty much has the gist of the game.
Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing?
How pity.
No thanks im allergic to casuals, I'd hang around till the end of days.
On September 01 2013 05:52 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 05:37 jdsowa wrote: All this really means is that the Korean public isn't interested in games that have 15 minutes of inactivity leading up to 5-10 second deathball confrontations with squishy units and coinflip AOE. I'm sure Blizzard will put the right team together to produce SC3, and in 2019 we'll have our game.
You don't watch sc2 apparently.
He exaggerates, but pretty much has the gist of the game.
not in: ZvT, TvT, ZvZ
So basically, remove protoss from the game.
That's being generous tbh.
TvT is watchable, remove other races from the game. Plus makes it perfectly balanced.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
On September 01 2013 05:52 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 05:37 jdsowa wrote: All this really means is that the Korean public isn't interested in games that have 15 minutes of inactivity leading up to 5-10 second deathball confrontations with squishy units and coinflip AOE. I'm sure Blizzard will put the right team together to produce SC3, and in 2019 we'll have our game.
You don't watch sc2 apparently.
He exaggerates, but pretty much has the gist of the game.
I can agree that his exaggeration is a major problem with the game. I just don't understand how people can say this while massive crowds enjoy watching people farm NPCs for 40 minutes with ~5 minutes of actual player vs player combat sprinkled in during that farming phase. Especially when you add that the game snowballs horribly and the team that is winning at the 12 minute mark has close to an 80% winrate.
Games like dota/lol are fun to play but are not really fun to watch.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
So it's a reorganization of the Kespa teams, pretty much. With the news of the changes in that entire organization (mostly due to the changing nature of the eSports scenes), that's really not a surprise.
The loss of a few teams isn't too surprising. Title sponsors actually come and go pretty quickly, if you look back through Kespa's history.
GOM will still be going, while doing their other bits, most of the GSTL teams are still around. The foreign scene is going pretty strong and the big events are doing well. There's a very active European scene and there is still plenty of money left in the Korean scene.
We should probably be more concerned about the lack of top-tier Americans and tournaments Stateside. Apparently we need to grow more Plott Brothers.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
You both need to get over yourselves. There is no point in quibbling over opinions disguised as facts.
On September 01 2013 05:52 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 05:37 jdsowa wrote: All this really means is that the Korean public isn't interested in games that have 15 minutes of inactivity leading up to 5-10 second deathball confrontations with squishy units and coinflip AOE. I'm sure Blizzard will put the right team together to produce SC3, and in 2019 we'll have our game.
You don't watch sc2 apparently.
He exaggerates, but pretty much has the gist of the game.
I can agree that his exaggeration is a major problem with the game. I just don't understand how people can say this while massive crowds enjoy watching people farm NPCs for 40 minutes with ~5 minutes of actual player vs player combat sprinkled in during that farming phase. Especially when you add that the game snowballs horribly and the team that is winning at the 12 minute mark has close to an 80% winrate.
Games like dota/lol are fun to play but are not really fun to watch.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
You both need to get over yourselves. There is no point in quibbling over opinions disguised as facts.
You can't tell them their opinion isn't fact! This is the Internet!!!!!!!!!!'
On September 01 2013 06:26 Taf the Ghost wrote: So it's a reorganization of the Kespa teams, pretty much. With the news of the changes in that entire organization (mostly due to the changing nature of the eSports scenes), that's really not a surprise.
The loss of a few teams isn't too surprising. Title sponsors actually come and go pretty quickly, if you look back through Kespa's history.
GOM will still be going, while doing their other bits, most of the GSTL teams are still around. The foreign scene is going pretty strong and the big events are doing well. There's a very active European scene and there is still plenty of money left in the Korean scene.
We should probably be more concerned about the lack of top-tier Americans and tournaments Stateside. Apparently we need to grow more Plott Brothers.
We could solve all the world's problems if we could grow more Plott brothers
Anyone who has interacted with SNM for any length of time knows that he loves to doomsay SC2. Now don't get me wrong, some of what he's reporting is definitely going to end up true, but don't underestimate him painting things a little darker than they may actually be.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
no, no I'm pretty sure It's an opinion.
Greatest e-sport game which isn't fully released yet? I bet this title is for Valve to grab.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
You both need to get over yourselves. There is no point in quibbling over opinions disguised as facts.
You can't tell them their opinion isn't fact! This is the Internet!!!!!!!!!!'
How about providing some arguments first and jokes later?
On September 01 2013 06:24 Iodem wrote: [ I can agree that his exaggeration is a major problem with the game. I just don't understand how people can say this while massive crowds enjoy watching people farm NPCs for 40 minutes with ~5 minutes of actual player vs player combat sprinkled in during that farming phase. Especially when you add that the game snowballs horribly and the team that is winning at the 12 minute mark has close to an 80% winrate.
Games like dota/lol are fun to play but are not really fun to watch.
Replace NPC's with minerals and PvP with deathballing, and you pretty much got stacraft, I find RTS more appealing though.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
no, no I'm pretty sure It's an opinion.
Greatest e-sport game which isn't fully released yet? I bet this title is for Valve to grab.
Glad you let us know what your opinion is on the subject. It's nice you keep us informed.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
You both need to get over yourselves. There is no point in quibbling over opinions disguised as facts.
You can't tell them their opinion isn't fact! This is the Internet!!!!!!!!!!'
How about providing some arguments first and jokes later?
I don't argue against opinions. Jokes are easier and more fun.
Do you happen to have his new ID btw if he's still posting? I knew his old one, but he deleted that account after people caught wind of him spilling news.
Do you happen to have his new ID btw if he's still posting? I knew his old one, but he deleted that account after people caught wind of him spilling news.
I was hoping he was still around. His updates on Prime were kind of funny/sad
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
You both need to get over yourselves. There is no point in quibbling over opinions disguised as facts.
You can't tell them their opinion isn't fact! This is the Internet!!!!!!!!!!'
How about providing some arguments first and jokes later?
I don't argue against opinions. Jokes are easier and more fun.
Do you happen to have his new ID btw if he's still posting? I knew his old one, but he deleted that account after people caught wind of him spilling news.
No I have no idea, I never read /vg/ except when someone links me a leak post from there. Half the time what that guy said ended up not coming true so he's probably not anyone important, just getting second or third hand information.
On September 01 2013 02:36 Lonyo wrote: [quote] You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
You both need to get over yourselves. There is no point in quibbling over opinions disguised as facts.
You can't tell them their opinion isn't fact! This is the Internet!!!!!!!!!!'
How about providing some arguments first and jokes later?
I don't argue against opinions. Jokes are easier and more fun.
Suits you well.
I am very efficient. I avoid wasting my time. And jokes are fun.
Do you happen to have his new ID btw if he's still posting? I knew his old one, but he deleted that account after people caught wind of him spilling news.
No I have no idea, I never read /vg/ except when someone links me a leak post from there. Half the time what that guy said ended up not coming true so he's probably not anyone important, just getting second or third hand information.
Yeah, I heard he was just a random guy translating Korean netizen speculations, but he was pretty entertaining all the same. Also, I occasionally enjoyed the TMZ-like gossip.
On September 01 2013 04:48 TomoeMami wrote: [quote]
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
No, it's not. And it's not opinion, but a fact.
You both need to get over yourselves. There is no point in quibbling over opinions disguised as facts.
You can't tell them their opinion isn't fact! This is the Internet!!!!!!!!!!'
How about providing some arguments first and jokes later?
I don't argue against opinions. Jokes are easier and more fun.
Suits you well.
I am very efficient. I avoid wasting my time.
Not when you respond to anonymous user on the internet pertaining to boring subject, you are not.
Something I just thought of, how are the Kespa vs eSF fan wars going to work if IM and Prime join Kespa and former STX players join eSF? Identity crisis!
On September 01 2013 06:54 Dodgin wrote: Something I just thought of, how are the Kespa vs eSF fan wars going to work if IM and Prime join Kespa and former STX players join eSF? Identity crisis!
On September 01 2013 06:54 Dodgin wrote: Something I just thought of, how are the Kespa vs eSF fan wars going to work if IM and Prime join Kespa and former STX players join eSF? Identity crisis!
I've been practicing my KESPA screams in my spare time hoping this day would come
On September 01 2013 06:54 Dodgin wrote: Something I just thought of, how are the Kespa vs eSF fan wars going to work if IM and Prime join Kespa and former STX players join eSF? Identity crisis!
Been playing SC since the day SC1 was released. You know what? Before any of this e-sports/pro stuff, the game was still fun. Maybe more so.
I was a quakeworld player when e-sports was invented by quakeworld people. I used to duel Reload daily before he want to Europe to take on Lakerman and Kane and Sectopod and Timber. Then CS came, Quakeworld died, it was sad, but it happens. People still play it to this day. If the game is fun and you love it, play it. In the end who gives a shit about a pro scene. It's fun to follow, it probably helps improve the standard overall, but really, if it all disappears i'll still be playing.
On September 01 2013 06:54 Dodgin wrote: Something I just thought of, how are the Kespa vs eSF fan wars going to work if IM and Prime join Kespa and former STX players join eSF? Identity crisis!
Everyone suddenly becomes a master philosopher.
Armchair GM and Philosophy Ph.D. Dr. Shellshock Rank 1 GM
On September 01 2013 06:58 Schism wrote: Been playing SC since the day SC1 was released. You know what? Before any of this e-sports/pro stuff, the game was still fun. Maybe more so.
I was a quakeworld player when e-sports was invented by quakeworld people. I used to duel Reload daily before he want to Europe to take on Lakerman and Kane and Sectopod and Timber. Then CS came, Quakeworld died, it was sad, but it happens. People still play it to this day. If the game is fun and you love it, play it. In the end who gives a shit about a pro scene. It's fun to follow, it probably helps improve the standard overall, but really, if it all disappears i'll still be playing.
Rationality in a rumor cataclysm thread is coming from someone named "Schism". That is hilarious. SC2 fans have officially won the world's biggest doomsday crier championships. Congratulations. I might have to literally make some popcorn if I stay in this thread, partly for the lulz and partly for the awesome music.
On September 01 2013 06:58 Schism wrote: Been playing SC since the day SC1 was released. You know what? Before any of this e-sports/pro stuff, the game was still fun. Maybe more so.
I was a quakeworld player when e-sports was invented by quakeworld people. I used to duel Reload daily before he want to Europe to take on Lakerman and Kane and Sectopod and Timber. Then CS came, Quakeworld died, it was sad, but it happens. People still play it to this day. If the game is fun and you love it, play it. In the end who gives a shit about a pro scene. It's fun to follow, it probably helps improve the standard overall, but really, if it all disappears i'll still be playing.
I totally agree with you, if the sc2 pro scene declines a bit yes it will be a bit sad but I still like to play the game and there are also hundred of great vod's to watch.
On September 01 2013 06:54 Dodgin wrote: Something I just thought of, how are the Kespa vs eSF fan wars going to work if IM and Prime join Kespa and former STX players join eSF? Identity crisis!
Everyone suddenly becomes a master philosopher.
Seeing as how everyone is already an amateur philosopher on TL, I do not see it being all that much of a stretch!
I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
In 2009 I used to follow WC3 and I would be content watching the top rated replays. I didn't have commentary, ultra high level matches, there was no large community that I could be a part of, but it was still enjoyable for me. So that's why before the release of the beta I felt that I didn't care about e-sports and it didn't matter to me. I don't feel that way anymore, since there are some perks to the idea of it being an e-sports, but I think that if I truly loved SC2 the way I did WC3 I wouldn't be phased by these recent developments. The community could decline, maybe the tournament scene would die out, but there would always be some competition as long as there were people that loved the game.
I think one of the reasons that SC2 caught on so much in 2010 is that many people were new to the idea of e-sports and they were primarily excited to be following the process of a developing scene. (and the promise of the game/Starcraft's iconic status and the belief in its limitless potential, which fueled this) One of the reasons there is so much gloom nowadays is because I think a lot of people aren't part of the community out of love for the game anymore (even if they did start out this way), but out of enjoyment of the e-sports scene.
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
The Korean scene does seem to be a bit over-saturated (especially with LoL being so popular), but still. Hopefully most of these rumors wont end up being true, or at least not the bad ones. A few of those actually seem like they could end up being good.
On September 01 2013 07:28 Grumbels wrote: In 2009 I used to follow WC3 and I would be content watching the top rated replays. I didn't have commentary, ultra high level matches, there was no large community that I could be a part of, but it was still enjoyable for me. So that's why before the release of the beta I felt that I didn't care about e-sports and it didn't matter to me. I don't feel that way anymore, since there are some perks to the idea of it being an e-sports, but I think that if I truly loved SC2 the way I did WC3 I wouldn't be phased by these recent developments. The community could decline, maybe the tournament scene would die out, but there would always be some competition as long as there were people that loved the game.
I think one of the reasons that SC2 caught on so much in 2010 is that many people were new to the idea of e-sports and they were primarily excited to be following the process of a developing scene. (and the promise of the game/Starcraft's iconic status and the belief in its limitless potential, which fueled this) One of the reasons there is so much gloom nowadays is because I think a lot of people aren't part of the community out of love for the game anymore (even if they did start out this way), but out of enjoyment of the e-sports scene.
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
On September 01 2013 07:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
Wow... It's funny how everyone is so pessimistic after hearing some rumors. Even when I write this I'm loling hard. The freaking rumors man . When there is no tournaments people have to do something, right ?
On September 01 2013 07:28 Grumbels wrote: In 2009 I used to follow WC3 and I would be content watching the top rated replays. I didn't have commentary, ultra high level matches, there was no large community that I could be a part of, but it was still enjoyable for me. So that's why before the release of the beta I felt that I didn't care about e-sports and it didn't matter to me. I don't feel that way anymore, since there are some perks to the idea of it being an e-sports, but I think that if I truly loved SC2 the way I did WC3 I wouldn't be phased by these recent developments. The community could decline, maybe the tournament scene would die out, but there would always be some competition as long as there were people that loved the game.
I think one of the reasons that SC2 caught on so much in 2010 is that many people were new to the idea of e-sports and they were primarily excited to be following the process of a developing scene. (and the promise of the game/Starcraft's iconic status and the belief in its limitless potential, which fueled this) One of the reasons there is so much gloom nowadays is because I think a lot of people aren't part of the community out of love for the game anymore (even if they did start out this way), but out of enjoyment of the e-sports scene.
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
On September 01 2013 07:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
On September 01 2013 07:28 Grumbels wrote: In 2009 I used to follow WC3 and I would be content watching the top rated replays. I didn't have commentary, ultra high level matches, there was no large community that I could be a part of, but it was still enjoyable for me. So that's why before the release of the beta I felt that I didn't care about e-sports and it didn't matter to me. I don't feel that way anymore, since there are some perks to the idea of it being an e-sports, but I think that if I truly loved SC2 the way I did WC3 I wouldn't be phased by these recent developments. The community could decline, maybe the tournament scene would die out, but there would always be some competition as long as there were people that loved the game.
I think one of the reasons that SC2 caught on so much in 2010 is that many people were new to the idea of e-sports and they were primarily excited to be following the process of a developing scene. (and the promise of the game/Starcraft's iconic status and the belief in its limitless potential, which fueled this) One of the reasons there is so much gloom nowadays is because I think a lot of people aren't part of the community out of love for the game anymore (even if they did start out this way), but out of enjoyment of the e-sports scene.
On September 01 2013 07:23 Acertos wrote:
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
edit : actually this song really brings back the sad memories
On September 01 2013 07:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
Theme of Shingeki No Kyojin, but it has the message of breaking away from the chains of oppression and overcoming obstacles, similar to what the community has to do here. Plus this song is epic.
Lets hope the scene doesn't dig itself into its own ditch with this news. It's sad to see all of this go on in such a manner with such a lack of information. (again similar to SNK where they have no info on the Titans, which are destroying the civilization).
On September 01 2013 07:28 ZAiNs wrote: If the next proleague is actually the last I will be so upset... League of Legends killing eSports...
More like taking it for themselves. ;p
They came.....they came from a land. A land that was parallel to our own, almost as if from the same creator you could say. When they left nobody thought much. They had the knowledge of the towns and cities they had come from and they exclaimed: "We shall build a land to call our own!"...and nobody batted an eye.
The days passed. Their small town had grown. It was now a flourishing city, and others had followed in their footsteps establishing towns in new areas. Their growth had been unprecedented...how foolish we were then. As we gazed out across the land, taking everything in sight, we were the power. We were the Kingdom that would rule! And the future was nothing but bright and full of stars! We had but merely to walk the path. How foolish we were....
Suddenly the city was more than just a city. It had become big. Large. Powerful. We could no longer ignore them as rivals. Yet we were still big. Strong. Powerful. But fading. Yet we carried on, having faith in our strength. It wouldn't be long before the Heart of our City was given new life, and it would Swarm again with people...if only we had known by this time it was too late.
Now our dominance is but a lost dream. We carry on...but more uncertain than ever. And as I walk the path of Esportia all I can see is the towering giant Looming overhead Like the powerhouse they are. Their Kingdom has surpassed, no, encompassed most of the land of Esportia now. They lead the way. They control the masses. And the worst part? I find that I too have strayed from my homeland. Not to the towering giant....but I no longer am home.
Perhaps one day I, and all of us can find our place...
On September 01 2013 07:28 ZAiNs wrote: If the next proleague is actually the last I will be so upset... League of Legends killing eSports...
I think you mean growing esports back into the greatness it once was at its height in Korea, and perhaps even more than that. Last night's OGN finals was one of the best things I've watched in a long time.
On September 01 2013 07:28 ZAiNs wrote: If the next proleague is actually the last I will be so upset... League of Legends killing eSports...
I think you mean growing esports back into the greatness it once was at its height in Korea, and perhaps even more than that. Last night's OGN finals was one of the best things I've watched in a long time.
I'm not so sure why everyone is doomsaying sc2 in general because of the possibility of kespa falling out. We always knew it was a possibility. SC2 was fine before Kespa. Everybody said they were going to dominate at sc2 because there structure and skill was so much higher, but they failed. Now they look to LoL for eSports. If they transitioned to SC2 and did bad what would you expect them to do? It will live on now because we have a huge foriegn scene that BW never really had. BW lasted 10 years and sc2 has been around only for 3 years.
On September 01 2013 08:52 FoxShine wrote: I'm not so sure why everyone is doomsaying sc2 in general because of the possibility of kespa falling out. We always knew it was a possibility. SC2 was fine before Kespa. Everybody said they were going to dominate at sc2 because there structure and skill was so much higher, but they failed. Now they look to LoL for eSports. If they transitioned to SC2 and did bad what would you expect them to do? It will live on now because we have a huge foriegn scene that BW never really had. BW lasted 10 years and sc2 has been around only for 3 years.
Yes.
Finally someone who uses some fucking logic and comes to the inevitable conclusion that I did.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
Surprisingly smart post for a post count of 40.
I am no expert but I think this is quite reasonable. After the age of 3D graphics 2D is just too painful for 99% of the people.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
You can be a fan and understand the way the world is.
There's a difference between being a fan, and being a blind fanboy, maybe people can just accept the reality of the situation. Or maybe they are OK with SC2, but prefer BW, and bad things for SC2 have the potential to benefit BW.
No, the only one can get benefit from this is LOL
Admit it, Kespa will never go back to BW, if they can have the profit from BW, they would never join SC2
And now they have LOL.
I still have some hope for the BW revival after/if the majority of top players switches back. If someone like Bisu was to go back and a couple more players, I think it would be a pretty big deal.
The game is still quite popular and SSL is growing in popularity as well.
Yes, it's popular, but Age of Empires is also popular in Russia ladders and that game is still not alive. E-sports need profits, need new bloods,the Kespa got a great deal of trouble before they switched to SC2. And SC2 simply did not save them, but LOL did. So the BW will never be like before, perhaps Bisu or someone else might go back and play SSL But is that really a "benefit"? Just not totally dead. Just it. Imagine If you give these two games (BW, LOL) to one hundred teenage boys wo used to love SC2. Are you expecting them to choose BW if Bisu go back and playing? No, that's least likely to happen. Most of them will choose LOL for sure. The death( I don't think SC2 is dead, but I will use this word here) of SC2 can do nothing beneficial to BW, Perhaps one or two boy used to choose SC2 may turn back to BW( The other 99 go to LOL for sure) The so called "increasing popularity"compares nothing to the great loss of Starcraft series.you are killing one game alive by a dead game, that is all. Young men will not go to see BW if SC2 dies. Sponsors will not support BW if SC2 dies. They will are turn to LOL, or dota2( But I don't think dota2 has enough market in Korea)
No matter now bad the SC2 is ,it is still the greatest e-sport game after BW And now u guys trying to kill it, and believe BW will resurrect by the death of its inheritor. While in fact the only one can be benefited is MOBA game. (I'm not saying they are bad, but definitely they are more like pure game not e-sports) How pity.
Surprisingly smart post for a post count of 40.
I am no expert but I think this is quite reasonable. After the age of 3D graphics 2D is just too painful for 99% of the people.
lols he did make a great point but what does post count have to do with anything lol you can be smart if you have 1 or 234345 just an odd thing to point out
As IncontroL calls these 'sky is falling' threads, I forgot to unsubscribe from the thread after I dropped a reply making fun of the thread for the beautifully crafted and humorously dramatic introductory post.
I remember not too long ago hearing a group of four knowledgeable, professional gentlemen discussing the fate of a community filled with negativity - let's instead enjoy some good products that were placed out there and let the scene develop as it will. Regardless of what opinions exist in this forum today, LotV is going to come out, balance changes will happen for years, and then things will stabilize - let's talk about the future of eSports and SC2 in relation when we get to that point.
Same reason why my doc wouldn't recommend laser eye surgery for me when I was 19, but I can now - they were still changing, no point in surgically correcting something that was just gonna change after anyway (because I can afford it with all of the money in winnings I got from IPL5. SHIT I LET A CAT OUT OF THE SUITCASE!)
Let's think positively and contribute ideas and talk about great stuff - the balance of positive/negative posts on reddit/TL is getting so far over to the Dark Side that + Show Spoiler +
eSports Dooms Doomsday Prophets are the actual antagonist in Star Wars 7.
On September 01 2013 07:28 ZAiNs wrote: If the next proleague is actually the last I will be so upset... League of Legends killing eSports...
I think you mean growing esports back into the greatness it once was at its height in Korea, and perhaps even more than that. Last night's OGN finals was one of the best things I've watched in a long time.
Honestly the only salvation I see for Starcraft 2 at this point is Blizzards incompetence working in our favor, all we can hope for now is that Valve and Riot both battle each other and throw so much money into it that they end up destroying each other resulting in a huge decline in this MOBA fad, from there maybe Blizzard can just win by default. (When I say Blizzards incompetent i'm not pointing fingers at David, Browder, etc, I'm looking at the higher ups that refuse to give proper support to give the passionate devs what they need to make SC2 succeed.)
Jokes aside it really is depressing to see competitive gaming as a whole taking a turn into easier and more casual games (This can even be argued for SC2 vs BW), however elitist my stance may be there really is no denying that Starcraft 2 is the hardest competitive game being played right now on a main stage while shifting to being the least popular. I really wish people could see Starcraft 2 the way I do and see all the intricacies that make this game so amazing but with what competitive gaming is devolving into I feel pretty cynical about our games future.
At the very least hopefully with the games decline we can get rid of all the fake personalities just in it for money at this point, seeing Idra get his welfare money from Starcaft 2 predominantly and than talking about how bad the game is on stream, stream chats, twitter, and etc makes me disgusted that we as a community put up with someone like that while witch hunting personalities like Naniwa who actually care about the game and devote their life to it.
The only good news I can think of at this point is that Red Bull is interested in Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 exclusively which is pretty huge considering an actual sponsor is producing the content as opposed to an organization.
On September 01 2013 07:28 ZAiNs wrote: If the next proleague is actually the last I will be so upset... League of Legends killing eSports...
I think you mean growing esports back into the greatness it once was at its height in Korea, and perhaps even more than that. Last night's OGN finals was one of the best things I've watched in a long time.
Yes we know you are a LoL fan. But not everyone is a LoL fan. You know what he ment with eSports: Starcraft.
On September 01 2013 09:24 AstroPegnuin wrote: Honestly the only salvation I see for Starcraft 2 at this point is Blizzards incompetence working in our favor, all we can hope for now is that Valve and Riot both battle each other and throw so much money into it that they end up destroying each other resulting in a huge decline in this MOBA fad, from there maybe Blizzard can just win by default. (When I say Blizzards incompetent i'm not pointing fingers at David, Browder, etc, I'm looking at the higher ups that refuse to give proper support to give the passionate devs what they need to make SC2 succeed.)
Jokes aside it really is depressing to see competitive gaming as a whole taking a turn into easier and more casual games (This can even be argued for SC2 vs BW), however elitist my stance may be there really is no denying that Starcraft 2 is the hardest competitive game being played right now on a main stage while shifting to being the least popular. I really wish people could see Starcraft 2 the way I do and see all the intricacies that make this game so amazing but with what competitive gaming is devolving into I feel pretty cynical about our games future.
At the very least hopefully with the games decline we can get rid of all the fake personalities just in it for money at this point, seeing Idra get his welfare money from Starcaft 2 predominantly and than talking about how bad the game is on stream, stream chats, twitter, and etc makes me disgusted that we as a community put up with someone like that while witch hunting personalities like Naniwa who actually care about the game and devote their life to it.
The only good news I can think of at this point is that Red Bull is interested in Starcraft 2 and Starcraft 2 exclusively which is pretty huge considering an actual sponsor is producing the content as opposed to an organization.
Ladies and gentlemen This is something they call A ground-breaker, breaker... So let me first apologize To the shirts and the ties For your makeup
Cause I'll make you ugly As soon as it drops We're on a rampage Bottles poppin' off Before you know it There's rubble and dust Cause we be crashing it up Somebody say, "You better run"
Yeah! I predict an earthquake up in here Say yeah! I predict an earthquake up in here Cause we throw bombs on it, throw bombs on it Just smash something, yeah mosh for me Hey yeah! We can make an earthquake up in here So here we go, we go
Ladies and gentlemen What you're about to witness Is no illusion... And now, we got the bass banging from here to Buckingham Palace They're all moving Hey Simon, we're fucking them up Turning them Syco [a record label owned by Simon Cowell] Everybody rock Let's bring the house down to rubble and dust Cause we be crashing it up Somebody say, "You better run"
Yeah! I predict an earthquake up in here Say yeah! I predict an earthquake up in here Cause we throw bombs on it, throw bombs on it Just smash something, yeah mosh for me Hey yeah! We can make an earthquake up in here So here we go, we go
I predict an earthquake up in here... [2x] Cause we throw bombs on it, throw bombs on it Just smash something, yes mosh for me, hey yes We can make an earthquake up in here So here we go, we go
[Tinie Tempah] Hey, yo Labrinth, this one's feeling like a straight 10 on the Richter scale, you know Yeah, fire, fire We about to set this place on fire Without a match or lighter Don't do girlfriends One nighters make them, ah C-minor, if I want Christian or Kurt Geiger I just phone up the designer Doing all-nighters No days off, grey hairs and a little bit of weight loss I predict riots, I predict chaos I predict evil, I predict aaahh! Disturbing London, got the whole city panicking I'll be Nostradamus, this my nig-nig-nig-nig Labrinth
Yeah! I predict an earthquake up in here Say yeah! I predict an earthquake up in here Cause we throw bombs on it, throw bombs on it Just smash something, yeah mosh for me Hey yeah! We can make an earthquake up in here So here we go, we go
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
Someone really is seeing what they want so see.
nah it's just I've seen a lot of Korean pros and coaches express their disinterest in SC2 and I'd like some clarification as to if we are only hearing the negative
It'll all be fine in the long run I think. This negativity is worse than anything else. So what if teams get a bit smaller reality is sc2 isn't as big as LoL so why should sc2 teams have more players than some LoL teams when league is a 5 person game ...
Also i honestly don't think that any of those rumors are bad. Personally i'd prefer fewer teams with deeper rosters, and maybe jjust a single team league that would be more important than the current. I don't really know about SPL, but GSTL has always paled in comparison to GSL. At least in my opinion.
While we have always had a "more is better" mantra in the SC2 scene, i for one would like a more structured scene. And that is something that is hard to obtain when Kespa and eSF are both running their own shit.
On September 01 2013 09:43 ZeromuS wrote: It'll all be fine in the long run I think. This negativity is worse than anything else. So what if teams get a bit smaller reality is sc2 isn't as big as LoL so why should sc2 teams have more players than some LoL teams when league is a 5 person game ...
the problem lies in that if SC2 keeps downsizing like it is eventually we won't be able to sustain the players salaries, justify team houses, tournament costs, and etc.
as it is right now the only people who can make a good living off of it are the personalities and the top end performers (the latter having rightfully earned it), but there can come a point where training 7-10 hours a day to have a chance to make a slightly above minimum wage salary won't be worth it anymore
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
On September 01 2013 02:51 Zeo wrote: Thanks for the news BigFan. I see all this as good news for BW, I hope we can rebuild what Blizzard destroyed
If you take just the STX announcement and ignore the rumours (which I have no idea how legit they are- is SNM the new Milkis?) Then it seems we have a successful team that was backed by a company that after many years is going over so now it is pulling out. That is bad for SC2, but I don't really see how it is good for BW in that we have a company that has a history of backing videogames that will be pulling out (probably permanently) of any sort of investment in competitive gaming. Is it true they have also stopped supporting a soccer team?
The only good is in the periphery that we might get a couple players play in SSL before they go to the military. But the level of corporate dollars seems unique to Korea and gave stability for years and years. Even though the corporations abandoned BW, I don't think it is good that Korea loses a corporation that had a history of supporting Starcraft.
When I translated I was pretty picky about what rumors I posted >
I think though, twitter is a bad medium to post rumors in cause you can't put in a proper disclaimer on the sources and misinformation spreads fast. Also I think there's a lot more rumors this time around since apparently it's apocalypse or something. (I don't actually know anything since I don't keep up, so please don't try to read into that last sentence xD)
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010 (for the game itself).
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Not by this community. If anything our criticisms show how passionate we are about this game, and the core of this community did not come from Broodwar
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Oh for fucks sakes, get over yourself. The whole BW hipster bullshit gets old.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
You posted that cataclysm stuff in the first place though hahaha
I feel that when he used 'cataclysm' he might have meant something that brought a lot of change, good and bad, rather than just straight-up EVERYTHING BAD EVER.
I mean English isn't his first language, yes?
Also, I would expect if everything was as bad as doomsayers make it out to be (no proleague, kespa giving up on SC2 entirely, etc) Blizzard would get involved. Esports might not be their 100% worry, but when big shit goes down they usually do something.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Not by this community. If anything our criticisms show how passionate we are about this game, and the core of this community did not come from Broodwar
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Oh for fucks sakes, get over yourself. The whole BW hipster bullshit gets old.
For me, there are many fundamental things that SC2 does better than BW. And I like the game a lot. But some of the things can be improved.
I was saying the Korean's opinion on the game. Many of them are very critical about it.
For example, CJ's former coach just tweets a few days ago that SC2 is a disappointed game. I mean, he works for the game, not to matter the other angry fans. You know Korean fans can be very angry.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Oh for fucks sakes, get over yourself. The whole BW hipster bullshit gets old.
You fanboys can't face reality gets old pretty quick, SC2 is always semi dead in Korea, its sole reason of survival is the so called passion came from less-informed foreigners.
On September 01 2013 02:27 paradoxOO9 wrote: I'm confused, how are "fans" of this game so damn pessimistic?
Pretty sure this is just mock pessimism. That or the exuberant moment of ecastacy in the final moments of despair. Anyone seen the full Der Untergang/ Downfall? That final dance scene.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Not by this community. If anything our criticisms show how passionate we are about this game, and the core of this community did not come from Broodwar
WTF did I just read?
It's completely true, the core of the foreign community did not come from BW. Why do you think BW didn't have tens of thousands of foreign viewers but sc2 suddenly did?
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Not by this community. If anything our criticisms show how passionate we are about this game, and the core of this community did not come from Broodwar
WTF did I just read?
It's completely true, the core of the foreign community did not come from BW. Why do you think BW didn't have tens of thousands of foreign viewers but sc2 suddenly did?
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Not by this community. If anything our criticisms show how passionate we are about this game, and the core of this community did not come from Broodwar
WTF did I just read?
It's completely true, the core of the foreign community did not come from BW. Why do you think BW didn't have tens of thousands of foreign viewers but sc2 suddenly did?
I got into Broodwar after I started Sc2 lol
Yeah, first time I watched BW match was after jangBi retired. So I can learn stuff about the game and follow him there ^^ The by.hero - By.Movie match was funny, although I had no idea wtf is going on mostly :D
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Not by this community. If anything our criticisms show how passionate we are about this game, and the core of this community did not come from Broodwar
WTF did I just read?
It's completely true, the core of the foreign community did not come from BW. Why do you think BW didn't have tens of thousands of foreign viewers but sc2 suddenly did?
BW in China was pretty big. They had full time casters and lots of viewers. SPL in China almost happened! Until a hurricane came.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Oh for fucks sakes, get over yourself. The whole BW hipster bullshit gets old.
You fanboys can't face reality gets old pretty quick, SC2 is always semi dead in Korea, its sole reason of survival is the so called passion came from less-informed foreigners.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is on life support from foreigner interest. So? :O
Maybe I'm just jaded having seen this happen once already, but it's not really all that doom and gloom.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Oh for fucks sakes, get over yourself. The whole BW hipster bullshit gets old.
For me, there are many fundamental things that SC2 does better than BW. And I like the game a lot. But some of the things can be improved.
I was saying the Korean's opinion on the game. Many of them are very critical about it.
All I hear is the same crap that has been repeated over and over on theses theads. You BW hipsters have a shared google.doc to make sure you are on message.
And now I'll stay in the Worldstone Chamber on top of Mount Arreat and pray that my lord and master Baal will protect me from the cataclysmic end of the world.
In all seriousness, I hate rumors and the fact that I don't know as much as the people behind the scenes. I anxiously await the moment when we finally reached a state of Tabula Rasa on all these rumors.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Oh for fucks sakes, get over yourself. The whole BW hipster bullshit gets old.
You fanboys can't face reality gets old pretty quick, SC2 is always semi dead in Korea, its sole reason of survival is the so called passion came from less-informed foreigners.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is on life support from foreigner interest. So? :O
Maybe I'm just jaded having seen this happen once already, but it's not really all that doom and gloom.
This has all happened before and it will all happen again.
On September 01 2013 09:31 EthanAhn wrote: Unfounded rumors. It is hurting them. This is not fun game.
1st - STX Disbanding & INnoVation joins Team Acer 2nd - GSTL Season2 Plan 3th - Announcement of eSF
Soon.
is that the general consensus amongst Koreans that the game is boring?
If the NA/EU SC2 people have watched highest quality of BW for about a decade, then it will be a consensus in NA/EU too.
We get it, you think BW is way better than SC2. No need to repeat yourself a gazillion times. And cut the patronizing tone please, it gets annoying incredibly fast. Also, I believe EthanAnn meant that the rumor game is not fun, but read into it whatever you want, I suppose.
(I don't mean to pick on you specifically, there is just way too much needless gloating/hating SC2 going on here that doesn't accomplish anything).
Well, if you really know what the Korean's opinion on SC2, you know that I am critical of SC2 for a reason. The game has been very badly received since 2010.
Oh for fucks sakes, get over yourself. The whole BW hipster bullshit gets old.
You fanboys can't face reality gets old pretty quick, SC2 is always semi dead in Korea, its sole reason of survival is the so called passion came from less-informed foreigners.
Yes, SC2 in Korea is on life support from foreigner interest. So? :O
Maybe I'm just jaded having seen this happen once already, but it's not really all that doom and gloom.
This has all happened before and it will all happen again.
You will lead us to salvation and destruction, Kara. O:
Also, wow 5 team GSTL. They're gonna get chummy with each other's styles...
Oh and pay-out for all five teams! That's actually kind of nice.
On September 01 2013 10:08 Dodgin wrote: I like how they put all star matches in AFTER everyone leaves...
Yeah it seems sort of silly. I mean, when they had 8 teams, they could have done the MVP from each team and put them in a 8-man bracket for the All-star champ, or true mvp, but this just seems like a bandaid much too small.
Although the lineup may be shortened, the level of skill has not decreased as some of the strongest team as well as a new challenger are entering the ring. This final season of the GSTL this year will let us know which team can truly call themselves the champions in 2013. Free up your schedule and prepare your team banners because it all starts on September 3rd, 2013 (KST).
It's not so bad guys! The previous season's champions and runner up are gone but It's not so bad!
That's actually a pretty significant chunk of money for the winner. A bit less than 45k USD, and the last place team is guaranteed 3k USD, which is, sure, basically small change, but nice that it's there.
... er. So who does AZUBU have left on its roster anyways?
On September 01 2013 10:12 babylon wrote: That's actually a pretty significant chunk of money for the winner. A bit less than 45k USD, and the last place team is guaranteed 3k USD, which is, sure, basically small change, but nice that it's there.
... er. So who does AZUBU have left on its roster anyways?
On September 01 2013 10:12 babylon wrote: That's actually a pretty significant chunk of money for the winner. A bit less than 45k USD, and the last place team is guaranteed 3k USD, which is, sure, basically small change, but nice that it's there.
... er. So who does AZUBU have left on its roster anyways?
IM, MVP and Prime are obviously leaving eSF to join Kespa. That's what the " eSF announcement " will be for the third thing.
I'm just wondering why they didn't delay joining Kespa until 2014, It's not like Proleague is starting up again any time soon. Maybe they didn't have a choice?
On September 01 2013 10:17 Dodgin wrote: IM, MVP and Prime are obviously leaving eSF to join Kespa. That's what the " eSF announcement " will be for the third thing.
I'm just wondering why they didn't delay joining Kespa until 2014, It's not like Proleague is starting up again any time soon. Maybe they didn't have a choice?
On September 01 2013 07:28 Grumbels wrote: In 2009 I used to follow WC3 and I would be content watching the top rated replays. I didn't have commentary, ultra high level matches, there was no large community that I could be a part of, but it was still enjoyable for me. So that's why before the release of the beta I felt that I didn't care about e-sports and it didn't matter to me. I don't feel that way anymore, since there are some perks to the idea of it being an e-sports, but I think that if I truly loved SC2 the way I did WC3 I wouldn't be phased by these recent developments. The community could decline, maybe the tournament scene would die out, but there would always be some competition as long as there were people that loved the game.
I think one of the reasons that SC2 caught on so much in 2010 is that many people were new to the idea of e-sports and they were primarily excited to be following the process of a developing scene. (and the promise of the game/Starcraft's iconic status and the belief in its limitless potential, which fueled this) One of the reasons there is so much gloom nowadays is because I think a lot of people aren't part of the community out of love for the game anymore (even if they did start out this way), but out of enjoyment of the e-sports scene.
On September 01 2013 07:23 Acertos wrote:
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
edit : actually this song really brings back the sad memories
On September 01 2013 07:17 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
On September 01 2013 07:13 Grumbels wrote: I'm really disappointed in the choice of soundtracks though. For such an occasion you need melancholic musical numbers from classic hollywood movies. Not generic game sound tracks.
On September 01 2013 10:17 Dodgin wrote: IM, MVP and Prime are obviously leaving eSF to join Kespa. That's what the " eSF announcement " will be for the third thing.
I'm just wondering why they didn't delay joining Kespa until 2014, It's not like Proleague is starting up again any time soon. Maybe they didn't have a choice?
Probably the MVP disbandment wasn't a rumour and KHAN is indeed pouching MVP's LoL squad and possibly some MVP players to their rooster because of their abysmal performance in PL.
On September 01 2013 10:17 Dodgin wrote: IM, MVP and Prime are obviously leaving eSF to join Kespa. That's what the " eSF announcement " will be for the third thing.
I'm just wondering why they didn't delay joining Kespa until 2014, It's not like Proleague is starting up again any time soon. Maybe they didn't have a choice?
Probably the MVP disbandment wasn't a rumour and KHAN is indeed pouching MVP's LoL squad and possibly some MVP players to their rooster because of their abysmal performance in PL.
On September 01 2013 10:17 Dodgin wrote: IM, MVP and Prime are obviously leaving eSF to join Kespa. That's what the " eSF announcement " will be for the third thing.
I'm just wondering why they didn't delay joining Kespa until 2014, It's not like Proleague is starting up again any time soon. Maybe they didn't have a choice?
Probably the MVP disbandment wasn't a rumour and KHAN is indeed pouching MVP's LoL squad and possibly some MVP players to their rooster because of their abysmal performance in PL.
Sad news but it seems like a lot of this has been coming for a while, sc2 could never support the massive in flux of kespa teams/players so the best survive and the rest die like any business.
On September 01 2013 10:12 babylon wrote: That's actually a pretty significant chunk of money for the winner. A bit less than 45k USD, and the last place team is guaranteed 3k USD, which is, sure, basically small change, but nice that it's there.
... er. So who does AZUBU have left on its roster anyways?
o.O that amount is small change and very depressing.
Jangbi just tried to make some joke that hyvaa will fight against Flash so he would be "jobless" because Flash is super strong.
However, the timing was definitely bad. People are confused by the news of the dissponsership of soul and they received that implying hyvaa's reitrment
Well some consolidation definitely needed to happen in Korea, there were just too many SC2 teams to support there. I'm hoping this will all sort itself out and settle by the end of the year.
Can i just say that i think we have reached a cataclysmic level. I went to dinner and came back to the world being turned on its head. At least the EU scene has stayed strong (so far)
Pocari Sweat will swoop in and take it much to the surprise of no one.
Pocari Sweat best esport drink. It's like Gatorade but 1000000x better. Always drink it when watching Sc2 and LoL.
I would, but it's remarkably tough to find where I am. Also, I find it hilarious that it contains MSG. Taste is pretty good.
That's kind of the point of msg, to make things taste good/better(it triggers the tastebuds for one of the five basic flavors and can enhance the other tastes too). It's really not that weird to add a flavor enhancer to something for taste.
On September 01 2013 11:41 DBS wrote: Can i just say that i think we have reached a cataclysmic level. I went to dinner and came back to the world being turned on its head. At least the EU scene has stayed strong (so far)
SC2 can live off the european scene only if it needs. Things are looking grim in other regions, but even if everything fall down, we can go back to a warcraft 3 level and have europe + some asians players and be just fine.
On September 01 2013 11:41 DBS wrote: Can i just say that i think we have reached a cataclysmic level. I went to dinner and came back to the world being turned on its head. At least the EU scene has stayed strong (so far)
Lots of hype over nothing. I don't understand why korean teams were so large anyway.. It's not like every friggin' player was playing matches for Pro League.. That's like paying people to warm benches at football/hockey games.
I'm not the slightest bit worried, despite all the people here who are trying to hype up the "SC2 is DYING" bs.
On September 01 2013 11:50 FetusThrower wrote: Lots of hype over nothing. I don't understand why korean teams were so large anyway.. It's not like every friggin' player was playing matches for Pro League.. That's like paying people to warm benches at football/hockey games.
I'm not the slightest bit worried, despite all the people here who are trying to hype up the "SC2 is DYING" bs.
It was mainly for BW.
BW players NEEDED a lot of practice partners to perfect builds and such. I'm guessing that is not needed in SC2 at all.
Pocari Sweat will swoop in and take it much to the surprise of no one.
Pocari Sweat best esport drink. It's like Gatorade but 1000000x better. Always drink it when watching Sc2 and LoL.
I would, but it's remarkably tough to find where I am. Also, I find it hilarious that it contains MSG. Taste is pretty good.
Asian supermarkets and other asian stores. Also, Chinatown. If you can find it Calgary, I'm sure it can be found in any other city.
The key word here being "city". I'm in a minor metropolitan area that is remarkably devoid of Asian supermarkets and stores. The most diverse store I've found in the immediate area doesn't carry it. I did find some while I was visiting Chicago.
On September 01 2013 11:50 FetusThrower wrote: Lots of hype over nothing. I don't understand why korean teams were so large anyway.. It's not like every friggin' player was playing matches for Pro League.. That's like paying people to warm benches at football/hockey games.
I'm not the slightest bit worried, despite all the people here who are trying to hype up the "SC2 is DYING" bs.
Depends on what people mean on dying. Failing to meet it's expectations and stagnating in KR? Yeah probably.
On September 01 2013 11:50 FetusThrower wrote: Lots of hype over nothing. I don't understand why korean teams were so large anyway.. It's not like every friggin' player was playing matches for Pro League.. That's like paying people to warm benches at football/hockey games.
I'm not the slightest bit worried, despite all the people here who are trying to hype up the "SC2 is DYING" bs.
It was mainly for BW.
BW players NEEDED a lot of practice partners to perfect builds and such. I'm guessing that is not needed in SC2 at all.
It is also about keeping your opponent guessing who will be sent out next.
said this several times before, poor management and lack of sponsors is driving these teams to the ground. big investors are moving away from single player games into team oriented ones (Dota 2, WoT etc).
Guess I was wrong, I never believed in the sky is falling back when Destiny went on his rant and IPL tanked. But in light of everything that has happened since WCS started I guess sc2 really won't be a long term cutting edge e-sport. It will definitely go on but with tournament support and team support failing it will just run on steam. The old korean pro-gamers who now play sc2 will play and we will have good tournaments, but there won't be any surges of new talent, because all new players will make the sensible choice and focus on moba's instead.
Per my shitty attempt to use Google Translate, MVP SC2 is not dead. Prime is looking for LoL, they can't comment on MVP LoL. KeSPA looking to help with LG.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game got stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs. But the metagame is stale, and so every game plays out similar, while most LOL games look radically different, and thus it is interesting to watch. Just imagine if every football game all anyone did was run the ball up the middle, it'd get boring pretty fast... SC2 needs to diversify.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
I don't get it, what other reason could they possibly have for leaving eSF and GSTL? They just won 50 million won from GSTL and could have repeated. It's not like their SC2 teams schedule is too full, right?
We have been saying for months(almost a year at this point) that there were way to many Korean teams and players compared to the size of the scene and it seems like it has finally come to fruition. When the KeSPA players came into the scene they added about 100 pro players to a scene that already had a fairly large pool of Korean pros. It will probably settle down for awhile after this and then we will get final stability around this time next year.
I am sad that we are losing all these players but this turnover was inevitable from the moment the sc2 player pool doubled in size.
None of this has anything to do with the excitement of the game. I mean obviously it is about the game, but not in any way that Blizzard can ever do anything about in terms of changing game play mechanics.
It can't be because the matchups are too stale or not exciting enough, and to answer why that is you just have to watch a moba. I am not saying this as some uneducated rts fanboy, I play League and I watch it too just as I watch sc2. But let's be honest. Moba's are just as stale if not more than sc2 is. The games are just as if not more predictable and will always follow the same pattern.
Want to save Starcraft 2, Remove all the enhanced Macro mechanics (Chrono boost, Mules, Injects, Warp Gates) If not the game won't be as interesting as competing Esport games.
On September 01 2013 13:27 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Want to save Starcraft 2, Remove all the enhanced Macro mechanics (Chrono boost, Mules, Injects, Warp Gates) If not the game won't be as interesting as competing Esport games.
No it most certainly won't. In fact it will be the exact opposite. Starcraft 2 is losing its marketshare to moba games. The problem is NOT that the game is to simple, too easy, or not mechanically demanding enough. Brood war was not the juggernaut in Korea that it was because it was difficult, as much as people want to romanticize it to be about Koreans only wanting to play the most demanding games. It was big because it had a huge install base, was played everywhere and was really accessible. It is and will always be about the bling bling. When League of Legends regularly has 4-5 times the viewership that sc2 has. The only thing you can be 100% sure about is that the issue is not about how mechanically demanding the games are.
if the kepsa teams were smart, they'd cut sc2 rosters down to 5-7 players, pool resources, and buy a collective team house in the US and/or EU and send players there. SC2 is doing fine in the west so it makes sense to consolidate geographically.
On September 01 2013 13:40 trifecta wrote: if the kepsa teams were smart, they'd cut sc2 rosters down to 5-7 players, pool resources, and buy a collective team house in the US and/or EU and send players there. SC2 is doing fine in the west so it makes sense to consolidate geographically.
I would assume that SC2 is technically bigger in Korea then it is in the rest of the world its just not as big as the other e-sports are.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
TvZ is amazing compared to infestor broodlord time I guess. Pretty awful in comparison to 2011 tvz.
On September 01 2013 13:40 trifecta wrote: if the kepsa teams were smart, they'd cut sc2 rosters down to 5-7 players, pool resources, and buy a collective team house in the US and/or EU and send players there. SC2 is doing fine in the west so it makes sense to consolidate geographically.
But why would teams like SKT and KT want to sponsor a team in a different region?
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game got stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs. But the metagame is stale, and so every game plays out similar, while most LOL games look radically different, and thus it is interesting to watch. Just imagine if every football game all anyone did was run the ball up the middle, it'd get boring pretty fast... SC2 needs to diversify.
nah, you are right, so many people are complaining about TvZ and stale metagame as well, just less so on TL all comes down to: lack of diversity in all TvX matchup bio mines means action everywhere but way too violate. One nice lucky mine hit can change the game and one bad one can kinda end the game as well. (mine hit the clumped banelings or lings is sometimes really luck based) not to mention the marine split micro from bio tank was way more spectator friendly to watch compared to the pre spread, poke until zerg engages style we have in bio mine. the new zerg micro such as sniping mines with muta and baiting mine hits aren't so amazing to watch in comparison to tank focus fire onto banelings and marine split. they just don't have the same WOW factor
On September 01 2013 13:27 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Want to save Starcraft 2, Remove all the enhanced Macro mechanics (Chrono boost, Mules, Injects, Warp Gates) If not the game won't be as interesting as competing Esport games.
No it most certainly won't. In fact it will be the exact opposite. Starcraft 2 is losing its marketshare to moba games. The problem is NOT that the game is to simple, too easy, or not mechanically demanding enough. Brood war was not the juggernaut in Korea that it was because it was difficult, as much as people want to romanticize it to be about Koreans only wanting to play the most demanding games. It was big because it had a huge install base, was played everywhere and was really accessible. It is and will always be about the bling bling. When League of Legends regularly has 4-5 times the viewership that sc2 has. The only thing you can be 100% sure about is that the issue is not about how mechanically demanding the games are.
The reason I posted that is not to do with difficulty at all... in Starcarft 2 everything is done so fast. Just slowing things down a bit would make the game more interesting and with some help from LotV we might be able to sustain more viewers with a game that isn't just max at 12 and attack each other than end the game.
On September 01 2013 13:53 Everlong wrote: Can someone explain to me what happened lol? :D
Supernovamaniac(the guy who was not well liked as a caster), apparently translated a bunch of rumors about stuff that MIGHT happen because Ethan_ahn wrote that a cataclysm or something was happening in SC2. Everyone freaked out for like the 30th time in the last 3 or 4 months about how SC2 was going to die at least in Korea. Then, half of the original rumors have been debunked or turned out to be basically non-issues.
So just another normal day here in the SC2 community.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
TvZ is amazing compared to infestor broodlord time I guess. Pretty awful in comparison to 2011 tvz.
I wouldn't say awful, but definitely not as good now that things have settled. The real issue with that matchup now is just like with TvP. It almost always plays out the same, there's no diversity anymore and mech is even more of a rarity. With some real effort on Blizzard's part it could be even better imo. At the dawn of HotS things looked amazing, but now it's just too hard to get to the lategame in that matchup. Also, there's a loss of identity, as now the terran really feels more Zerg-like than the fucking Zerg :/
On September 01 2013 07:28 ZAiNs wrote: If the next proleague is actually the last I will be so upset... League of Legends killing eSports...
I think you mean growing esports back into the greatness it once was at its height in Korea, and perhaps even more than that. Last night's OGN finals was one of the best things I've watched in a long time.
Yes we know you are a LoL fan. But not everyone is a LoL fan. You know what he ment with eSports: Starcraft.
No, I didn't know what he meant. If he meant Starcraft, then he should have said Starcraft. Not esports. That's like if he said "Soccer/Football is killing sports," then you bitch at me that I should know that "sports" means basketball (or other specific sport). No. Sports means sports. LoL may definitely be killing Starcraft, but it is not killing esports.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
TvZ is amazing compared to infestor broodlord time I guess. Pretty awful in comparison to 2011 tvz.
I wouldn't say awful, but definitely not as good now that things have settled. The real issue with that matchup now is just like with TvP. It almost always plays out the same, there's no diversity anymore and mech is even more of a rarity. With some real effort on Blizzard's part it could be even better imo. At the dawn of HotS things looked amazing, but now it's just too hard to get to the lategame in that matchup. Also, there's a loss of identity, as now the terran really feels more Zerg-like than the fucking Zerg :/
sounds like identity crisis to me lol but ya, I agree. Protoss playing like BW terran and Terran playing like BW Zerg lol
On September 01 2013 13:40 trifecta wrote: if the kepsa teams were smart, they'd cut sc2 rosters down to 5-7 players, pool resources, and buy a collective team house in the US and/or EU and send players there. SC2 is doing fine in the west so it makes sense to consolidate geographically.
But why would teams like SKT and KT want to sponsor a team in a different region?
heh yeah that's a problem. they could attract more sponsors though and advertise their LoL teams.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
lol. While you make a valid although sarcastic point, I have to say that I have to agree with Bronzeknee. I enjoyed the HoTS TvZ with biomine because it was new, unique, exciting etc... but seeing Polt 4-0 Jaedong, Innovation wiping the floor with majority of zerg using the same strat led me to start hating it. It feels really abusive. At least in the old days of MMT, it was more about skill but now you are banking on luck as well and if you keep pushing a Zerg using biomine, they are bound to slip up eventually and give in. It just doesn't feel right and isn't as exciting to watch anymore.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
lol. While you make a valid although sarcastic point, I have to say that I have to agree with Bronzeknee. I enjoyed the HoTS TvZ with biomine because it was new, unique, exciting etc... but seeing Polt 4-0 Jaedong, Innovation wiping the floor with majority of zerg using the same strat led me to start hating it. It feels really abusive. At least in the old days of MMT, it was more about skill but now you are banking on luck as well and if you keep pushing a Zerg using biomine, they are bound to slip up eventually and give in. It just doesn't feel right and isn't as exciting to watch anymore.
While I can agree with how abusive everything is, and looks and realistically there's probably some imbalance in it. TvZ with tanks was just painful. You lose a group of tanks on creep? That sucks for you, you've basically just lost the game right there. There was no good way to reproduce it and while Broodlord/Infestor was the ultimate problem at the end of WoL, a huge problem was the fact with the 6 queen opening, Zergs were able to get creep out super far, basically delaying any sort of push from the Terran that didn't want to gamble.
On September 01 2013 12:50 Shellshock1122 wrote: [quote] I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
lol. While you make a valid although sarcastic point, I have to say that I have to agree with Bronzeknee. I enjoyed the HoTS TvZ with biomine because it was new, unique, exciting etc... but seeing Polt 4-0 Jaedong, Innovation wiping the floor with majority of zerg using the same strat led me to start hating it. It feels really abusive. At least in the old days of MMT, it was more about skill but now you are banking on luck as well and if you keep pushing a Zerg using biomine, they are bound to slip up eventually and give in. It just doesn't feel right and isn't as exciting to watch anymore.
While I can agree with how abusive everything is, and looks and realistically there's probably some imbalance in it. TvZ with tanks was just painful. You lose a group of tanks on creep? That sucks for you, you've basically just lost the game right there. There was no good way to reproduce it and while Broodlord/Infestor was the ultimate problem at the end of WoL, a huge problem was the fact with the 6 queen opening, Zergs were able to get creep out super far, basically delaying any sort of push from the Terran that didn't want to gamble.
thing is, you can always get two factories, double tank production or even tank+mine production with MM as support. The mines can protect the tanks from surrounds as long as the marines prevent zerglings from setting them off etc... It's doesn't have to be only biomine TvZ like we're seeing for most TvZs. It just gets old really fast
Hopefully sc2bw will swoop in and save the scene. Watched a match recently and it was 100x more entertaiming than any sc2 game ive seen lately. Im high.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
On September 01 2013 13:53 Everlong wrote: Can someone explain to me what happened lol? :D
Supernovamaniac(the guy who was not well liked as a caster), apparently translated a bunch of rumors about stuff that MIGHT happen because Ethan_ahn wrote that a cataclysm or something was happening in SC2. Everyone freaked out for like the 30th time in the last 3 or 4 months about how SC2 was going to die at least in Korea. Then, half of the original rumors have been debunked or turned out to be basically non-issues.
So just another normal day here in the SC2 community.
That seems like a good summation to me. So a whole bunch of new players came into the SC2 scene. Some adapted, some have not, some look like they are not inclined to even really try (either because the game is not for them or they don't have the willingness to learn). Meanwhile some sponsors pull sticks because they have financial trouble, and because LOL is more attractive to many Koreans at the moment. While old BW fans indulge in fantasies that old players will return to BW and that BW will (somehow) return to its former glory because SC2 is apparently a shit game that is fundamentally flawed in design.
So, yeah, another normal day (more or less) in the SC2 community.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
Yeah, you clearly haven't watched the game in a long time. And even then you apparently weren't watching much. -_-
I still maintain that it was the best series TvZ I've watched. I just re-watched it, and the game was so dynamic back then. So interesting.
I should probably note that they are two of my favorite players too... so I'm a bit biased. But the games were still awesome, so much more exciting than the TvZ games of today.
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
Yeah, you clearly haven't watched the game in a long time. And even then you apparently weren't watching much. -_-
I still maintain that it was the best series TvZ I've watched. I just re-watched it, and the game was so dynamic back then. So interesting.
I should probably note that they are two of my favorite players too... so I'm a bit biased. But the games were still awesome, so much more exciting than the TvZ games of today.
I don't get how you can find that more exciting then today's TvZ's o.O
I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
Yeah, you clearly haven't watched the game in a long time. And even then you apparently weren't watching much. -_-
I still maintain that it was the best series TvZ I've watched. I just re-watched it, and the game was so dynamic back then. So interesting.
I should probably note that they are two of my favorite players too... so I'm a bit biased. But the games were still awesome, so much more exciting than the TvZ games of today.
Fair enough. It was a good series. But, for me, I don't see it as more exciting than comparable TvZ games of today. I just re-watched g1. It was good to see Bomber's monster macro and mass Marines until Idra's Infestors and insta-fungal. I think some of the excitement might be from the fact that it was 2011 and there was a lot of E-Sports/SC2 hype at that time.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
Its quite boring to play this game alone, my country has only few players playing, none of my friends even KNOW sc2. It would be way more exciting if i could compete with my friends in 1v1, but now i'm just playing this game alone and my friends play lol/dota 2 couse it's free... Thats why i started to play dota 2 more and more
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
I wonder if there have been any studies looking at the popularity of spectator sports and whether or not the sport is a team game or an individual game. At least in America I feel like the most popular sports (based on viewership numbers, availability on television and stuff) also tend to be team-based sports; basketball, football (American) etc. While solo sports such as golf and tennis put up respectable numbers I don't think they come quite as close as the numbers team sports pull in.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
It's not boring to watch, and the skill ceiling is not low at all don't talk like what you say is a fact when it's not, many people enjoy watching SC2. Your first criticism is valid some-what.
It's not like pro players have a lot of options. If you are not a top tier SC2 player (maybe 20 players) then you can't switch to LoL, you have to either get better or retire. There will come a point where there will be a huge lack of talent coming into the game (it's probably already happening now) and at the same time the top players will have had so much practice and time invested in the game that nobody is going to be able to catch up. Because there is a gloomy feeling for SC2 where people don't want to bet on the scene thriving in three years or so, there is no point in starting from scratch right now, you're better off with moba games. Every year more and more players will get the message that they won't be able to catch up, that they have ever fewer chances for an ever smaller prize pool and as such the pro scene will become increasingly small, similar to the situation in WC3 where in the end you just had 10 relevant players that were leagues beyond the rest.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
I don't understand this criticism. I don't even watch SC2 anymore, but saying it has a low skill ceiling is ridiculous. No one has reached the ceiling. No it's not Brood War, but it's still one of the hardest games to have come out recently, and is quite impressive to play well.
The problems of Starcraft 2 are many, but skill ceiling is definitely not one.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
I keep hearing this and I think it's just as stupid every time. What skill ceiling? No human being can reasonably reach a hypothetical skill ceiling because it would require you to do everything perfectly, and there's just no way. "Very boring" is also very subjective - I think the game is very entertaining and judging by viewer counts, so do tens of thousands of others. There are design issues, yes, but please don't try to make your own opinion a fact.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
Right, that's why LoL is struggling.
LoL happens to be really enjoyable to play for a lot of people because there's an active casual scene as a result of it being a team-based game with obvious progression and opportunities to game with friends.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
Right, that's why LoL is struggling.
LoL happens to be really enjoyable to play for a lot of people because there's an active casual scene as a result of it being a team-based game with obvious progression and opportunities to game with friends.
Not to mention you never have to take responsibility for your bad play. You have teammates to blame when you go 0-12 that they weren't around to help you. People don't like taking responsibilities for their mistakes.
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
Right, that's why LoL is struggling.
LoL happens to be really enjoyable to play for a lot of people because there's an active casual scene as a result of it being a team-based game with obvious progression and opportunities to game with friends.
Not to mention you never have to take responsibility for your bad play. You have teammates to blame when you go 0-12 that they weren't around to help you. People don't like taking responsibilities for their mistakes.
That's not a problem for SC2, we have balance for that.
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
Good or bad, it does change things. Almost all the (big)changes we've seen in SC2 started as a 'complain' or 'suggestion' depending on your angle.
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
Yeah contribute to SC2 by writing essays on how to ameliorate the gameplay and design for spectators to enjoy more and for players to have more fun!
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
Yeah contribute to SC2 by writing essays on how to ameliorate the gameplay and design for spectators to enjoy more and for players to have more fun!
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
Yeah contribute to SC2 by writing essays on how to ameliorate the gameplay and design for spectators to enjoy more and for players to have more fun!
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
Yeah contribute to SC2 by writing essays on how to ameliorate the gameplay and design for spectators to enjoy more and for players to have more fun!
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
I don't know about you, but I find LR for games boring. Only thing I check is OP and latest post for the discussion and lulz. To me, live reports don't contribute to the game and its amusement whatsoever. Plus if I was to write a LR, that means I'm not enjoying the game as much as I could be because I have to divert my attention from watching the cast to doing something else. Granted, I'm usually doing something else anyways when games are streaming.
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
I don't know about you, but I find LR for games boring. Only thing I check is OP and latest post for the discussion and lulz. To me, live reports don't contribute to the game and its amusement whatsoever. Plus if I was to write a LR, that means I'm not enjoying the game as much as I could be because I have to divert my attention from watching the cast to doing something else. Granted, I'm usually doing something else anyways when games are streaming.
A lot of people ask for LRs because they can't watch the games and want to know what is happening. Either they are at work or they can't watch a stream at the time. Just because you find them 'boring' doesn't mean they aren't important contributions to the scene :p
And not enjoying the games while LRing just makes it even more impressive that Shellbot and The_Templar, and others, so willingly do it.
If only we all had that kind of productive dedication and love for the game.
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
I don't know about you, but I find LR for games boring. Only thing I check is OP and latest post for the discussion and lulz. To me, live reports don't contribute to the game and its amusement whatsoever. Plus if I was to write a LR, that means I'm not enjoying the game as much as I could be because I have to divert my attention from watching the cast to doing something else. Granted, I'm usually doing something else anyways when games are streaming.
A lot of people ask for LRs because they can't watch the games and want to know what is happening. Either they are at work or they can't watch a stream at the time. Just because you find them 'boring' doesn't mean they aren't important contributions to the scene :p
In other words, just because some of the 'suggestions' and 'reasoning' doesn't tick for you, it doesn't mean the poster is a "sc2dead-mongering". You seem to have no problem accepting and believing in what you do, yet you have no capacity for other's view.
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
I don't know about you, but I find LR for games boring. Only thing I check is OP and latest post for the discussion and lulz. To me, live reports don't contribute to the game and its amusement whatsoever. Plus if I was to write a LR, that means I'm not enjoying the game as much as I could be because I have to divert my attention from watching the cast to doing something else. Granted, I'm usually doing something else anyways when games are streaming.
A lot of people ask for LRs because they can't watch the games and want to know what is happening. Either they are at work or they can't watch a stream at the time. Just because you find them 'boring' doesn't mean they aren't important contributions to the scene :p
In other words, just because some of the 'suggestions' and 'reasoning' doesn't tick for you, it doesn't mean the poster is a "sc2dead-mongering". You seem to have no problem accepting and believing in what you do, yet you have no capacity for other's view.
I'm now confused. They have a successful SC2 team (7 players in premier league S3), they have a successful LoL team who won a championship and has many sponsors, but they are in the process of selling their successful LoL team and instead pick up a DOTA2 squad which may or may not do well?
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep their successful LoL team and build a DOTA2 team on the side to perhaps have three successful eSports teams? Or is this like when people do start ups and intend to sell it off for a lot of cash to build up something new?
I guess the second part, juicyjames, but doesn't it seem rather unlikely that dota will ever become as big as league in Korea since they share the same genre and League already has KeSPA support? I guess they want to sell off the LoL team while it is still at/near it's peak (don't know for sure but I remember hearing that they were winning a lot) so they could net the largest profit
I'm now confused. They have a successful SC2 team (7 players in premier league S3), they have a successful LoL team who won a championship and has many sponsors, but they are in the process of selling their successful LoL team and instead pick up a DOTA2 squad which may or may not do well?
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep their successful LoL team and build a DOTA2 team on the side to perhaps have three successful eSports teams? Or is this like when people do start ups and intend to sell it off for a lot of cash to build up something new?
One can only hope MVP has psychic powers and knows LoL will die soon.
Someone may have given them a really good offer. With present information, though, I agree that MVP selling off Ozone looks kind of weird, but if they managed to grow one top team (I'm assuming they grew it), they might think they should be able to grow another?
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
I don't understand this criticism. I don't even watch SC2 anymore, but saying it has a low skill ceiling is ridiculous. No one has reached the ceiling. No it's not Brood War, but it's still one of the hardest games to have come out recently, and is quite impressive to play well.
The problems of Starcraft 2 are many, but skill ceiling is definitely not one.
If its one of the hardest games why are pro gamers quitting left and right?
I think one of the big flaws with SC2 currently might the lack of replays.
I remember when I was getting into WC3 I used to download a TON of replays and just watch them, study them, try to do it by myself against A.I. and finally against other people on ladder. Also, it was very entertaining. Then there was this waaaghtv. Man, that was awesome.
I think lack of those things really hurt SC2 in the long run, especially since it is really hard for new people to really get into it. You can watch streams, which is great, but for some reason, watching streams doesn't make me want to play more games. It's like watching TV. It won't make you make your own movies. But analyzing replays, studying build orders, observing decision making, checking mico/macro, that is completely different story. I know there are lots of replay analyzers and stuff like that. But I just want to see it happening on my screen. I want to load up replay where my favourite player is playing perfectly, etc...
Sad for players and everyone else who makes a living from sc2, but it just feels so good to know this community might get what it deserves. All the people who said "who cares?" whenever a map maker or pro retired. Half of the LR threads. Reddit. Congratulations
On September 02 2013 02:06 Everlong wrote: I think one of the big flaws with SC2 currently might the lack of replays.
I remember when I was getting into WC3 I used to download a TON of replays and just watch them, study them, try to do it by myself against A.I. and finally against other people on ladder. Also, it was very entertaining. Then there was this waaaghtv. Man, that was awesome.
I think lack of those things really hurt SC2 in the long run, especially since it is really hard for new people to really get into it. You can watch streams, which is great, but for some reason, watching streams doesn't make me want to play more games. It's like watching TV. It won't make you make movies. But analyzing replays, studying build orders, observing decision making, checking mico/macro, that is completely different story. I know there are lots of replay analyzers and stuff like that. But I just want to see it happening on my screen. I want to load up replay where my favourite player is playing perfectly, etc...
Hopefully someone catches what I'm trying to say.
Good news! WCS Now Supports GGTracker Analytics, All WCS S1 and S2 Replays Released!
On September 02 2013 02:06 Everlong wrote: I think one of the big flaws with SC2 currently might the lack of replays.
I remember when I was getting into WC3 I used to download a TON of replays and just watch them, study them, try to do it by myself against A.I. and finally against other people on ladder. Also, it was very entertaining. Then there was this waaaghtv. Man, that was awesome.
I think lack of those things really hurt SC2 in the long run, especially since it is really hard for new people to really get into it. You can watch streams, which is great, but for some reason, watching streams doesn't make me want to play more games. It's like watching TV. It won't make you make movies. But analyzing replays, studying build orders, observing decision making, checking mico/macro, that is completely different story. I know there are lots of replay analyzers and stuff like that. But I just want to see it happening on my screen. I want to load up replay where my favourite player is playing perfectly, etc...
Hopefully someone catches what I'm trying to say.
Good news! WCS Now Supports GGTracker Analytics, All WCS S1 and S2 Replays Released!
On September 02 2013 02:06 Everlong wrote: I think one of the big flaws with SC2 currently might the lack of replays.
I remember when I was getting into WC3 I used to download a TON of replays and just watch them, study them, try to do it by myself against A.I. and finally against other people on ladder. Also, it was very entertaining. Then there was this waaaghtv. Man, that was awesome.
I think lack of those things really hurt SC2 in the long run, especially since it is really hard for new people to really get into it. You can watch streams, which is great, but for some reason, watching streams doesn't make me want to play more games. It's like watching TV. It won't make you make movies. But analyzing replays, studying build orders, observing decision making, checking mico/macro, that is completely different story. I know there are lots of replay analyzers and stuff like that. But I just want to see it happening on my screen. I want to load up replay where my favourite player is playing perfectly, etc...
Hopefully someone catches what I'm trying to say.
Good news! WCS Now Supports GGTracker Analytics, All WCS S1 and S2 Replays Released!
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
I don't know about you, but I find LR for games boring. Only thing I check is OP and latest post for the discussion and lulz. To me, live reports don't contribute to the game and its amusement whatsoever. Plus if I was to write a LR, that means I'm not enjoying the game as much as I could be because I have to divert my attention from watching the cast to doing something else. Granted, I'm usually doing something else anyways when games are streaming.
A lot of people ask for LRs because they can't watch the games and want to know what is happening. Either they are at work or they can't watch a stream at the time. Just because you find them 'boring' doesn't mean they aren't important contributions to the scene :p
In other words, just because some of the 'suggestions' and 'reasoning' doesn't tick for you, it doesn't mean the poster is a "sc2dead-mongering". You seem to have no problem accepting and believing in what you do, yet you have no capacity for other's view.
Double standard no?
That makes zero sense.
(also I'm going to bed)
live report is super important to me and to others Ignore the haters :-) Didn't someone even suggested a mobile text based live report app?
On September 02 2013 02:06 Everlong wrote: I think one of the big flaws with SC2 currently might the lack of replays.
I remember when I was getting into WC3 I used to download a TON of replays and just watch them, study them, try to do it by myself against A.I. and finally against other people on ladder. Also, it was very entertaining. Then there was this waaaghtv. Man, that was awesome.
I think lack of those things really hurt SC2 in the long run, especially since it is really hard for new people to really get into it. You can watch streams, which is great, but for some reason, watching streams doesn't make me want to play more games. It's like watching TV. It won't make you make movies. But analyzing replays, studying build orders, observing decision making, checking mico/macro, that is completely different story. I know there are lots of replay analyzers and stuff like that. But I just want to see it happening on my screen. I want to load up replay where my favourite player is playing perfectly, etc...
Hopefully someone catches what I'm trying to say.
Good news! WCS Now Supports GGTracker Analytics, All WCS S1 and S2 Replays Released!
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
I don't understand this criticism. I don't even watch SC2 anymore, but saying it has a low skill ceiling is ridiculous. No one has reached the ceiling. No it's not Brood War, but it's still one of the hardest games to have come out recently, and is quite impressive to play well.
The problems of Starcraft 2 are many, but skill ceiling is definitely not one.
If its one of the hardest games why are pro gamers quitting left and right?
What? How is that making a point? Alot of recent stuff happened because of financial issues, how can thy make thy argument of people quitting because it is easy???
I'm now confused. They have a successful SC2 team (7 players in premier league S3), they have a successful LoL team who won a championship and has many sponsors, but they are in the process of selling their successful LoL team and instead pick up a DOTA2 squad which may or may not do well?
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep their successful LoL team and build a DOTA2 team on the side to perhaps have three successful eSports teams? Or is this like when people do start ups and intend to sell it off for a lot of cash to build up something new?
rumor is that Samsung KHAN is looking to buy their LoL team.
On September 02 2013 02:06 Everlong wrote: I think one of the big flaws with SC2 currently might the lack of replays.
I remember when I was getting into WC3 I used to download a TON of replays and just watch them, study them, try to do it by myself against A.I. and finally against other people on ladder. Also, it was very entertaining. Then there was this waaaghtv. Man, that was awesome.
I think lack of those things really hurt SC2 in the long run, especially since it is really hard for new people to really get into it. You can watch streams, which is great, but for some reason, watching streams doesn't make me want to play more games. It's like watching TV. It won't make you make your own movies. But analyzing replays, studying build orders, observing decision making, checking mico/macro, that is completely different story. I know there are lots of replay analyzers and stuff like that. But I just want to see it happening on my screen. I want to load up replay where my favourite player is playing perfectly, etc...
On September 02 2013 01:23 lichter wrote: Instead of sc2dead-mongering you dudes could just contribute to SC2, like maybe do an LR OP or do LRs for games or something
I don't know about you, but I find LR for games boring. Only thing I check is OP and latest post for the discussion and lulz. To me, live reports don't contribute to the game and its amusement whatsoever. Plus if I was to write a LR, that means I'm not enjoying the game as much as I could be because I have to divert my attention from watching the cast to doing something else. Granted, I'm usually doing something else anyways when games are streaming.
A lot of people ask for LRs because they can't watch the games and want to know what is happening. Either they are at work or they can't watch a stream at the time. Just because you find them 'boring' doesn't mean they aren't important contributions to the scene :p
In other words, just because some of the 'suggestions' and 'reasoning' doesn't tick for you, it doesn't mean the poster is a "sc2dead-mongering". You seem to have no problem accepting and believing in what you do, yet you have no capacity for other's view.
Double standard no?
That makes zero sense.
(also I'm going to bed)
live report is super important to me and to others Ignore the haters :-) Didn't someone even suggested a mobile text based live report app?
Yeah. If I'm at work and following a game/series, I like the LR option together with following the thread chat. Anyone who has spent some time in a LR thread knows that - and there are often people who pop in and ask for a LR or thank the LR poster for his contribution. And everyone likes a good LR OP. I think the reason Xiphis and forumtext didn't make any sense with their posts (and they were wtf are you on about posts) is because they probably didn't have any sense to make.
I'm now confused. They have a successful SC2 team (7 players in premier league S3), they have a successful LoL team who won a championship and has many sponsors, but they are in the process of selling their successful LoL team and instead pick up a DOTA2 squad which may or may not do well?
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep their successful LoL team and build a DOTA2 team on the side to perhaps have three successful eSports teams? Or is this like when people do start ups and intend to sell it off for a lot of cash to build up something new?
They're not rich enough to keep the team and fend off bigger offers, so they might as well sell the team while they still can.
On September 02 2013 04:31 xuanzue wrote: now is 2 of september in Korea, no more rumours will be confirmed then?
I think we're done getting new rumours for now. :o However, we're still awaiting the final conclusion to some rumours, will they be true or false? Only time will tell!
On September 01 2013 16:38 lannisport wrote: This is more shocking than the Red Wedding.
As shocking as this is, NOTHING beats the Red Wedding.
excuse me... but what the hell is RED WEDDING?
Something from the book series A Song of Ice and Fire and its TV series adaptation Game of Thrones. Don't look into it if you ever plan on reading or watching it.
On September 02 2013 02:06 Everlong wrote: I think one of the big flaws with SC2 currently might the lack of replays.
I remember when I was getting into WC3 I used to download a TON of replays and just watch them, study them, try to do it by myself against A.I. and finally against other people on ladder. Also, it was very entertaining. Then there was this waaaghtv. Man, that was awesome.
I think lack of those things really hurt SC2 in the long run, especially since it is really hard for new people to really get into it. You can watch streams, which is great, but for some reason, watching streams doesn't make me want to play more games. It's like watching TV. It won't make you make your own movies. But analyzing replays, studying build orders, observing decision making, checking mico/macro, that is completely different story. I know there are lots of replay analyzers and stuff like that. But I just want to see it happening on my screen. I want to load up replay where my favourite player is playing perfectly, etc...
Hopefully someone catches what I'm trying to say.
waaaaghtv was really awesome
oh god the nostalgia. waaaghtv is the fucking shit. when i started watching sc2 about a year after it came out i was really confused by the lack of replays and a waaaghtv equivalent. i thought i was too dumb to find them. turns out this shit doesn't really exist for sc2.
Guys I have info on the next esports cataclysm: Papa Johns promises never being fulfilled and SC2 documentaries never being released causing the great shitstorm of 2013.
Of course the great shitstorm of 2012 was the Destiny thing and 2011 was PPSL.
On September 02 2013 06:42 Dodgin wrote: Guys I have info on the next esports cataclysm: Papa Johns promises never being fulfilled and SC2 documentaries never being released causing the great shitstorm of 2013.
Of course the great shitstorm of 2012 was the Destiny thing and 2011 was PPSL.
While this is rather depressing, as a really devoted BW fan I have to say that this does not really surprise me much. The SC2 scene has consistently been on the downturn almost since the beginning. The only GSL that was truly exciting for me was Fruitdealer's win the first time around. Unlike with BW the novelty wore off fast. I stopped playing SC2 only about 8 months after I started. For me that's the shortest stint I've ever had with any kind of competitive (A)RTS game, from BW, AoE2, AoE3, WC3, LoL, and DotA2, and also the least enjoyable. The only things I ever found about SC2 that I liked better were in-game interface/usability updates and graphics. Gameplay wise BW has always been the most exciting.
If there is anyone to blame here I feel like it is Blizzard. SC2 just does not have the same quality as previous Blizzard games. The gameplay changes were often made in poor design taste. For example, two of the most egregrious violators are marauders and roaches, which simply do not fit the design philosophy of Terran/Zerg, respectively. They are, in my opinion, quite poorly designed and were the reason for a lot of imbalances (and perhaps still are). I think this is a property inherent to the current management and design teams at Blizzard, as both WoW and Diablo 3 have had similar problems. I don't think it's such a shocker that you see so many pros burn out on the game so quickly. Idra was always quite vocal about how much he disliked playing SC2 over BW but did it purely for the money. Numerous BW pros have recently been retiring (like Jangbi) and rumour has it that they simply do not enjoy SC2.
Hopefully the scene doesn't completely die. I'm sure it won't. But, at the same time I'd love to see Korean BW make a comeback, if that is at all possible. I'd most definitely spend some nights staying up late to relive those memories.
On September 02 2013 06:42 Dodgin wrote: Guys I have info on the next esports cataclysm: Papa Johns promises never being fulfilled and SC2 documentaries never being released causing the great shitstorm of 2013.
Of course the great shitstorm of 2012 was the Destiny thing and 2011 was PPSL.
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
well shit, why even have forums at all?
Dude.....this 'thread' has had more than 50k views in less than 12 hours...clearly ppl are more interested in the gossip... 'game is dying blah blah' than actually playing the game. That's all I'm saying. Less drama, play more, everyone relax and enjoy the games while its here...
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
well shit, why even have forums at all?
Dude.....this 'thread' has had more than 50k views in less than 12 hours...clearly ppl are more interested in the gossip... 'game is dying blah blah' than actually playing the game. That's all I'm saying. Less drama, play more, everyone relax and enjoy the games while its here...
What's funny is that I'm sure that there are plenty of people (like me) who would rather discuss this than play the game, which reflects on how much we actually enjoy playing it. Pretty sad, no?
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
well shit, why even have forums at all?
Dude.....this 'thread' has had more than 50k views in less than 12 hours...clearly ppl are more interested in the gossip... 'game is dying blah blah' than actually playing the game. That's all I'm saying. Less drama, play more, everyone relax and enjoy the games while its here...
so it is dying then...
who doesn't love dramas, gossips?
latest cataclysm rumor is GOM will announce this week the cancellation of GSTL... due to 5 team less and lastest back out...
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
well shit, why even have forums at all?
Dude.....this 'thread' has had more than 50k views in less than 12 hours...clearly ppl are more interested in the gossip... 'game is dying blah blah' than actually playing the game. That's all I'm saying. Less drama, play more, everyone relax and enjoy the games while its here...
What's funny is that I'm sure that there are plenty of people (like me) who would rather discuss this than play the game, which reflects on how much we actually enjoy playing it. Pretty sad, no?
Agree with you. Last time i formated my main pc i didn´t even reinstalled sc2. More funny is, as i know (Correct me if im wrong), the most active guys on this site known for their contributions for the "scene", barely play the game. :-P
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
Release: September 2010, now Sept. 2013. Seems like someone is unable to count up to three ^^. And do not forget about the beta times. Also you can´t compare BW to SC2, those where simply other times.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
SC2 its quite a hardcore game for people without previous knowledge in RTS.
the thing is that , even in bronze , you need to have some resemblance of mechanics and understanding of the game bc the people there cheese hard...or you can drop in a DOTA2 game and maybe get carried to victory xD
I mean , i remember training myself in broodwar to make probes pylons and dragoons in some kind of continuous matter but we should not expect everyone to go through that for a game.I for one think that SC2 will retain its place in esports and gaming granted but you cant really expect it to appeal to the casual playerbase that mobas can have.
In some weeks all will be fine in korea , give it time to unfold.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
SC2 its quite a hardcore game for people without previous knowledge in RTS.
the thing is that , even in bronze , you need to have some resemblance of mechanics and understanding of the game bc the people there cheese hard...or you can drop in a DOTA2 game and maybe get carried to victory xD
I mean , i remember training myself in broodwar to make probes pylons and dragoons in some kind of continuous matter but we should not expect everyone to go through that for a game.I for one think that SC2 will retain its place in esports and gaming granted but you cant really expect it to appeal to the casual playerbase that mobas can have.
In some weeks all will be fine in korea , give it time to unfold.
PREDICTION....
1. will be the last GSTL, to unify all teams into one proleague and will start NEXT year... one massive KESPA proleague... (both by OGN and GOM) 2. massive retiring... BWing or be LOLed... 3. LOL WILL BE the next (2014) big thing... 4. BW resurrection completed... 5. next year's WCS will only have two seasons, no season final, straight to global after the two.... prize pool dramatically increases by 50%... 6. 2014 is SC2's peak...
On September 01 2013 12:50 Shellshock1122 wrote: [quote] I voted the guy doing pushups on the bottom of the page
Looks like what was expected, IM/MVP/Prime joins Kespa and leaves eSF.
Sounds to me like MVP is totally dead?
Anyway, I haven't bought into any of this whole SC2 is in trouble hype until now. This is bad.
Blizzard needs to fix the Siege Tank, everyone loves it, and it would bring people back.
That and the Carrier.
If only it were that simple
Maybe I just live in a shell, but I stopped watching a lot of SC2 when TvZ became what it is now. A good TvZ between two great players back in WOL (before the Infestor took over) was probably the most exciting competition I've ever watched.
But I feel like the game stale. TvP has been the same for how long? TvZ isn't as good. ZvP has more and more Swarmhosts, which are the ultimate turtle and boring unit. One base timings are nearly extinct, and two base timings are going that way too. Blizzard should start people on two bases, because no one wants to watch the same build up and no action for 8+ minutes.
I feel like if Starcraft had the excitement, and was as exciting to watch as it used to be, it could compete with the MOBAs.
A lot of what you said is outdated, TvP has changed in subtle but important ways with more emphasis on ghost Viking and even the occasional hellbat transition, and really swarm hosts aren't massed anymore.
And idk about you but TvZ is fucking amazing.
I feel like subtle changes aren't enough to make TvP interesting.
And I want you to watch this. I was so excited during this game that I was banned on TL for saying stupid things in the LR thread. The only time I've been banned on TL too. Please, tell me that current TvZ comes even close to this glory:
Yeah, you clearly haven't watched the game in a long time. And even then you apparently weren't watching much. -_-
I still maintain that it was the best series TvZ I've watched. I just re-watched it, and the game was so dynamic back then. So interesting.
I should probably note that they are two of my favorite players too... so I'm a bit biased. But the games were still awesome, so much more exciting than the TvZ games of today.
I don't get how you can find that more exciting then today's TvZ's o.O
On September 01 2013 14:04 lichter wrote: Is that really it? I was really expecting hell but this is actually not bad
Haha that's just today. Who knows how much worse its going to get before the year is out. I imagine that there are going to be at least a couple more Korean SC2 teams disbanding.
This whole situation is sad as hell. The scene is being dominated by MOBAs which I find very unenjoyable to watch and play. SC2 is being incompetently managed and designed by Blizzard. Whatever resemblance of a scene that exists in Korea is being replaced by LoL and World of Tanks.
I think it'll come to a point where the Korean scene gives out completely and to the point where the skill level we currently see in SC2 will diminish. When that happens the SC2 scene will truely die (for me at least).
This is only good. I want few more team to disband and much more progamers to retire. Like I said earlier.
On September 01 2013 03:55 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:47 TwilightRain wrote:
On September 01 2013 03:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: As fan of foreign sc2 this is meanless for me...
Without at least a halfway "healthy" Korean sc2 scene, there is a pretty big chance "foreign sc2" will follow suit next.
Why people don't remember that when kespa joined sc2 korean pro player pool got double. That's not good or normal for scene. Way too many players for this scene. This is just good. We all knew that someday some teams have to disband...
Slower this happen, more damage it does.
sc2 in korea is in trickly position right now. kespa is killing gom and gom is killing kespa. There isnt room for both with current situation.
The main reason why SC2 is struggling is because it is a badly designed game. Skill ceiling too low and very boring to watch.
I don't understand this criticism. I don't even watch SC2 anymore, but saying it has a low skill ceiling is ridiculous. No one has reached the ceiling. No it's not Brood War, but it's still one of the hardest games to have come out recently, and is quite impressive to play well.
The problems of Starcraft 2 are many, but skill ceiling is definitely not one.
If its one of the hardest games why are pro gamers quitting left and right?
Sorry, I tried to let this go... but I can't.
Why are pro gamers quitting left and right? BECAUSE IT'S A HARD DAMN GAME. Not only that, but only a very few people have the skills and ability to consistently do well and make a living playing the game. It becomes harder as you get older, especially if you've beaten your wrists and hands to hell trying to become good enough to make a living playing the game.
At a certain point, you have to honestly assess your situation and ask yourself "Can I make a good life playing this game? Can I support myself based on my earnings or position in a team? Will this let me have the life I want, afford me the style of living I want, and help support my family if I have one?" And for some players, the choices start to become very tough - do I spend time studying, applying myself to my schoolwork, getting a degree that means when my wrists are blown out and I'm just not as fast as a 15 year old kid I have something to do for the other 50+ years of my life? Or do I throw my school out the window, practice 12-15 hours a day, and still come up short against people who are just plain better?
Professional gaming, in any esport, is going to be like anything else - is the effort I'm putting in going to be good enough, or will I just wind up dropping out of college with huge debts and no saleable skill outside of the sport? People see how hard it is to be good, and stay good, and consistently place in tournaments, and it's really hard to argue. I'm grateful that there are people who are passionate, who are determined, and who play awesome games so far above my skill level that I am just amazed at the things they pull off, win or lose. But it's not something everyone can do, and looking at the difficulty of the game and the entire ecosystem, it may be better personally in the long term to step back and say "I've had a good run. It's time to move on."
Or do you think Stephano just woke up one day and said "Whelp, this game is too easy, time to go back to med school!" Stephano is player about whom you can have many opinions, but he played well, got to the top, made money, and then bowed out gracefully. (At least, without another mug shot.) I respect him, and I respect all the people that keep trying - each person is going to have different decisions and circumstances. New players come in, old players leave, good and bad and everything in between. How difficult it is to play the game by itself is less of a factor than how difficult it is to play the game at the top level and make your living doing so. SC2 just happens to be a hard game (not as hard as any BroodWar era RTS, from a strictly mechanical point of view) and one in which all that pressure rests on one person's shoulders.
If it was easy, no one would retire or leave. When it's hard, those decisions I mention above become very important - because if you spend 15 years beating yourself against a wall you can't climb, you've lost time you could've spent going around it to do something else.
TL; dr - People are leaving because the game's hard, the scene's hard, and life is hard. Wear a helmet.
On September 01 2013 17:37 Chinnro wrote: If everyone in this thread stopped whining, logged on and played some games, maybe the game wouldn't be 'dying'?? Seems like you guys spend more time reading the tea leaves than actually playing. Some poor, lonely and bored nerds in here...
how would a couple hundred people in this thread logging on to the game itself change anything?
Complaining about the game dying doesn't change anything either. If everyone saved their breaths we might reduce the air of negativity.
well shit, why even have forums at all?
Dude.....this 'thread' has had more than 50k views in less than 12 hours...clearly ppl are more interested in the gossip... 'game is dying blah blah' than actually playing the game. That's all I'm saying. Less drama, play more, everyone relax and enjoy the games while its here...
What's funny is that I'm sure that there are plenty of people (like me) who would rather discuss this than play the game, which reflects on how much we actually enjoy playing it. Pretty sad, no?
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
as we all know, BW was absolutely enormous 2 years after release and it never reached a higher point than that.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
as we all know, BW was absolutely enormous 2 years after release and it never reached a higher point than that.
Don't know man, the height of BW was easily in the 2005 to 2008 period (and that is when majority of computer could even handle the game properly)
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
as we all know, BW was absolutely enormous 2 years after release and it never reached a higher point than that.
The turn of the millenium tournaments really were the peak, it was all downhill from there.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
as we all know, BW was absolutely enormous 2 years after release and it never reached a higher point than that.
Don't know man, the height of BW was easily in the 2005 to 2008 period (and that is when majority of computer could even handle the game properly)
Well, BW was released in '99, a year after SC. About 3 years later, would've been 2002. It took a little bit to really hit the tempo and grow into the juggernaut that it was (in South Korea). Globally, SC2 is doing okay only a short time after its first released expansion.
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
as we all know, BW was absolutely enormous 2 years after release and it never reached a higher point than that.
Well that's not true LIKE AT ALL. It was seeing growth all up until 2009. I'm not saying that without SC2 coming out and the scandal that it would have gone on forever, but it would have probably lasted a couple more years.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
SC2 needs much more than that - a UI/AI/Gameplay overhaul.
Fomos just had an article about the upcoming KeSPA team salary negotiations, most teams and players are not looking good atm, teams and players making salary and cost cuts, they predict a huge wave of players retiring in September.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
as we all know, BW was absolutely enormous 2 years after release and it never reached a higher point than that.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
10 years??!!! Like the hell it would happend! BLIZZ never idle, not again, taking from epsort experience. SC2 life expectancy is 6-7 years.... 2011-2018. Every 1.5 to 2 years, they will have an expansion or another game as a whole....
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
BUT Korea is the SOUL of SC2. Of course SC2 will not die... will just be another soul-less game...
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
SC enjoyed it's golden age in the BW days when the game was cheap as chips. Organizations like KESPA took Blizzard's game and made millions of dollars off it, Blizz wanted to do the same with SC2....so we get a game too expensive/inaccesible to work in the PC bang.
On September 02 2013 07:30 Crying wrote: Starcraft 2 dying 100% confirmed????????????
Damn,why LoL,why not something that actually is SUPER MEGA SKILLED....... Why hardcore people like the SC community can't get something.I mean LOL is skilled to some extent,but oh hey,the drama in Starcraft 2 Games is A LOT MORE.....i mean there were games that people are literally screaming because of the situations that players created.
Sc2 going free will make it more appealing?But i guess anybody thats below the age of 15-16 will never understand the beauty of starcraft.
The Beauty of Starcraft is in BW ..
It's just only been 2 years and SC2 is already dying? lol ..
as we all know, BW was absolutely enormous 2 years after release and it never reached a higher point than that.
Learn2SCHistory.
That was pretty obvious sarcasm as remark for the whole 2year thing of the other poster.
On September 02 2013 10:07 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: People saying "SC2 is dead" are so short-sighted.
SC enjoyed it's golden age in the BW days when the game was cheap as chips. Organizations like KESPA took Blizzard's game and made millions of dollars off it, Blizz wanted to do the same with SC2....so we get a game too expensive/inaccesible to work in the PC bang.
It's was only a matter of time before destiny was brought up as the true prophet. Confirmation bias is the best evidence on the Internet.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
That's not even a fair comparison when we're comparing to how the competitive gaming scene is now to then. I always laugh to myself when someone brings that up. :V
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
I would say that the only truthful place it may still be popular is in Europe, I just see NA events dwindling completely. There is the Red Bull events to look forward too but I don't think it will last. Look at MLG it didn't take them that long comparatively to the history of esports to kinda drop SC2. But that was to be expected, look at Halo, it was the flagship for a while til the #'s dwindled. Then SC2 iirc filled the void and launched MLG to a new set of gamers who never experienced their content before.
However, SC2 just aren't bringing in the #'s for them anymore I think. I also feel that they are a bit envious of the LoL numbers and have started to completely switch to that game as their flagship content.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
That's not even a fair comparison when we're comparing to how the competitive gaming scene is now to then. I always laugh to myself when someone brings that up. :V
What people doesn't realize is the Korea is the future of esports. If a game fails in Korea, what chance does it or any other game get in other countries?
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Well if this is all about cataclysm so far then it's not that as bad as it sounds lke in the first place.
Also cut those bw vs sc2 crap please. Sc as a whole is on the decline since before Kespa switch. They have to swallow their pride and switch because be was failing at that time too. Now it just that the Moab genre attracts more gamers, particularly casual gamer so rts as a whole is on the decline. Western scene still has a good number too so not all is dOom and gloom.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
On September 02 2013 12:21 Veldril wrote: Well if this is all about cataclysm so far then it's not that as bad as it sounds lke in the first place.
Also cut those bw vs sc2 crap please. Sc as a whole is on the decline since before Kespa switch. They have to swallow their pride and switch because be was failing at that time too. Now it just that the Moab genre attracts more gamers, particularly casual gamer so rts as a whole is on the decline. Western scene still has a good number too so not all is dOom and gloom.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened.
On September 02 2013 12:33 Fionn wrote: To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened.
At least there wouldn't have been something stupid like a hybrid proleague (though the image of BW + LoL is hilarious) and BW might have been sent off better.
On September 02 2013 12:33 Fionn wrote: To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened.
At least there wouldn't have been something stupid like a hybrid proleague (though the image of BW + LoL is hilarious) and BW might have been sent off better.
I kinda doubt that. I get the feeling they would have rode it for as long as they could and then taken BW out back, like a loyal draft horse and put it down. They might have said something nice on the way back.
On September 02 2013 08:44 felisconcolori wrote: TL; dr - People are leaving because the game's hard, the scene's hard, and life is hard. Wear a helmet.
Doubt it.
Broodwar was harder, and those same people played that. The difference is they grew up wanting to play BW, loving BW, and being pro was a logical progression from it. Meanwhile, most pro korean SC2 players arrived from BW because there was no other option for their career - in it for the money, not because of the game itself.
Seeing a lot of people retire when they stop caring is to be expected.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke.
Why would you think at all the Korean sc2 scene is even close to dying? All players going to switch to LoL, retire?
The scene isn't even really in trouble, we have at least two more years from Korean tv and in my eyes the next 20.
On September 02 2013 08:44 felisconcolori wrote: TL; dr - People are leaving because the game's hard, the scene's hard, and life is hard. Wear a helmet.
Doubt it.
Broodwar was harder, and those same people played that. The difference is they grew up wanting to play BW, loving BW, and being pro was a logical progression from it. Meanwhile, most pro korean SC2 players arrived from BW because there was no other option for their career - in it for the money, not because of the game itself.
Seeing a lot of people retire when they stop caring is to be expected.
Not even many are retiring because they don't like it. One is, okay not everyone will like Starcraft II.
Some retire because they can't make the cut. Your over exaggerating BW, remember most are B-teamers, they're still young and can go to military service. Maybe they're staying because they like the game?
On September 02 2013 12:33 Fionn wrote: To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened.
At least there wouldn't have been something stupid like a hybrid proleague (though the image of BW + LoL is hilarious) and BW might have been sent off better.
I kinda doubt that. I get the feeling they would have rode it for as long as they could and then taken BW out back, like a loyal draft horse and put it down. They might have said something nice on the way back.
That's almost better, there would have been finality. Instead SCII has basically erased a lot of BW's legacy because KESPA treated it like a continuation and all the players switched. This phenomenon is pretty evident by the fact that many of the people who switched from BW don't feel its right for them to play with their best race so they stick with their BW race and show substandard games (as in, they could play another race more comfortably and show better results). :\
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Blizzard's old patching method consisted of releasing several patches, last one looking like a laundry list. They pretty much changed every unit in one patch then afterwards, they left the game be. As mentioned, the players and the organizers balanced the game around maps etc... Also, honestly, even though the SCII AI makes the game easier(smart cast, MBS etc...) and that can be a welcome addition, I find the BW AI superior in some ways and quite bad in others lol. It's true that units won't push others apart if they want to move somewhere but the AI makes it possible to do things like muta stacking, stop lurkers, moving shot, etc... it's those kind of tricks that give the game even more dimensions. I have no doubt that there aren't many new holes since 1) everytime something was found, Blizzard patched it right away 2) the game has been played a lot by pros and such. Someone would've found something by now. The ability to micro each unit for each race to get better usage and being a mechanically stronger player than your opponent are what makes BW a unique and fun game. Will leave the BW vs SCII discussion to another thread
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke.
I wouldn't say it's a joke but without Korean SCII pro-scene, the level of the game is for lack of another word, quite bad at times lol.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
good point. I don't think we'll be seeing any big companies sponsoring teams and such like we saw for BW. Korea seems to be the exception and they keep passing laws for the benefit of esports in the country. It's the reason that there is no doubt that Korea is the mecca of esports.
On September 02 2013 08:44 felisconcolori wrote: TL; dr - People are leaving because the game's hard, the scene's hard, and life is hard. Wear a helmet.
Doubt it.
Broodwar was harder, and those same people played that. The difference is they grew up wanting to play BW, loving BW, and being pro was a logical progression from it. Meanwhile, most pro korean SC2 players arrived from BW because there was no other option for their career - in it for the money, not because of the game itself.
Seeing a lot of people retire when they stop caring is to be expected.
this. My concern with the switch is for the players that entered the esports scene with a passion for BW then they felt forced to switch to SCII or end their career. Can't do much about it unfortunately. Maybe the SOSPA scene will become big enough to allow these players to be able to play BW like in the past.
Uh hopefully this isn't infringement. This is what the journalist is thinking/said NOT ME
Proleague is now more geared towards LoL than SC2, thus, less money for SC2 progamers and they'll reconsider a career in SC2. Thus, it's natural to think that there may be more retirements this month.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke.
Why would you think at all the Korean sc2 scene is even close to dying? All players going to switch to LoL, retire?
Old players go to army, new players go to LoL. No reinforcements for sc2. As simple as that.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
WC3 didn't have the large number of players, tournaments, and prize pools that SC2 will continue to have, and yet WC3 was great to follow for almost a decade. If you like following SC2, you have nothing to be worried about.
On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote: So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league. And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise. It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore.
Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke.
Why would you think at all the Korean sc2 scene is even close to dying? All players going to switch to LoL, retire?
Old players go to army, new players go to LoL. No reinforcements for sc2. As simple as that.
Is it happening? Why don't we see b teamers saying "LoL time lets go!" Maybe they want to be good at this game.
So many BW complaints have been killed and are evaporating. There is no reachable skill ceiling, no KesPa domination, no real imbalances and fuck it man I love watching Starcraft so it being inherently flawed is wrong too.
Games like LoL can come and go but a game like Starcraft 1 or 2 never dies.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
They started it. No doubt about it.
Whoa! How the hell can you post when you are from North Korea???
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
They started it. No doubt about it.
Whoa! How the hell can you post when you are from North Korea???
I'm in a bunker of sorts near DMZ .. Really good wifi Connection :D
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I hope SC2 can continue to thrive in the non-Korean scene. I think people were just too obsessed about Starcraft = Korea that they forgot just how BW became so big in Korea - because people loved playing it! Somehow, SC2 was forced into the Korean e-sports scene so much so that I feel people (and the progamers) didn't have enough time to assess whether they actually loved the game or not. It was just a continuation (or a "restart" button) for the BW scene.
I think LoL or some other similar game would have ultimately replaced BW as the most-watched game, true enough, but BW would always have a large, but niche following, like a more popular Sudden Attack.
Anyway as to SC2, it's a well-made game but it was made too much as an e-sports and not enough as a fun game. Strangely enough, I think it's fun enough to play but not nearly as fun to watch.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea?
Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS.
And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
On September 02 2013 14:33 Qwyn wrote: Call me selfish, but I actually do sort of hope that the game collapses in on and itself and begins to fail. Perhaps then Blizzard really will consider drastic, overarching changes for LOTV.
Ofc the big drawback to this is a smack in the face to players, but if we get an amazing overhaul then I would say it is all worth it.
This game is already so good and as fun to watch as BW to me at the moment, it doesn't need a huge overhaul instead some small changes.
Call me selfish, but I actually do sort of hope that the game collapses in on and itself and begins to fail. Perhaps then Blizzard really will consider drastic, overarching changes for LOTV.
Ofc the big drawback to this is a smack in the face to players, but if we get an amazing overhaul then I would say it is all worth it.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
Yes. Because, you know, adding features on in the process because you know it will be used that way regardless of what you do should dictate how it will be forever and ever. Wait, are you my ex-wife?
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS.
And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP.
Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities.
Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing.
SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
Yes. Because, you know, adding features on in the process because you know it will be used that way regardless of what you do should dictate how it will be forever and ever. Wait, are you my ex-wife?
Well, apparently the Pandain guy doesn't think so.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS.
And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website.
On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP.
Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities.
Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing.
SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant.
So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
He is saying what I was saying but he worded it bad.
Think about Basketball, do you think that guy made the sport thinking "Oh let me make this pro sport about putting a ball in a hoop?
No the guy made a game he thought would be fun, then it exploded everywhere, then it became a Sport.
Just like in Korea with BW, everyone and there fucking mother had BW installed everyone played it so naturally people started saying.... Well... Whos the best BW player? Bam.. Esports.
Point is. You need people to actually play the game and key word Enjoy the game to have a pro-scene.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
He is saying what I was saying but he worded it bad.
Think about Basketball, do you think that guy made the sport thinking "Oh let me make this pro sport about putting a ball in a hoop?
No the guy made a game he thought would be fun, then it exploded everywhere, then it became a Sport.
Just like in Korea with BW, everyone and there fucking mother had BW installed everyone played it so naturally people started saying.... Well... Whos the best BW player? Bam.. Esports.
No I somewhat disagree with you. I think right now it's already at a really good place and I agree with you in that with time it can only get better.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS.
And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website.
On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote: [quote]
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP.
Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities.
Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing.
SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant.
So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg.
Well once again your going off of random bullshit that is not really what happens in the MU, this happened the second you said "Mech attempts" as one of you reasons. Nice try, just because theres some half assed random opening doesnt change that the MU has been about "Oh I killed him in 15 min I win" or I didnt and I die, and the fact that you still go MMM every damn game.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS.
And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website.
On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote: [quote]
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP.
Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities.
Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing.
SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant.
So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg.
Well once again your going off of random bullshit that is not really what happens in the MU, this happened the second you said "Mech attempts" as one of you reasons. Nice try, just because theres some half assed random opening doesnt change that the MU has been about "Oh I killed him in 15 min I win" or I didnt and I die, and the fact that you still go MMM every damn game.
Alright I don't think I actually need to adress this any further, I'll be going to sleep.
Meanwhile I encourage everyone to tune into Taejas stream who has been playing some awesome and also just now a hilarious game.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS.
And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website.
On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:
On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:
On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote: [quote]
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP.
Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities.
Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing.
SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant.
So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg.
Well once again your going off of random bullshit that is not really what happens in the MU, this happened the second you said "Mech attempts" as one of you reasons. Nice try, just because theres some half assed random opening doesnt change that the MU has been about "Oh I killed him in 15 min I win" or I didnt and I die, and the fact that you still go MMM every damn game.
Alright I don't think I actually need to adress this any further, I'll be going to sleep.
Meanwhile I encourage everyone to tune into Taejas stream who has been playing some awesome and also just now a hilarious game.
Good night.
I see this a lot on the forums now and its pretty lame............
Not all that surprising to be honest. It was very interesting in the beginning but the metagame has been very stagnant. Every time I watch the game I feel like I know what's going to happen and nothing surprising happens. It's been rather dull. Most of my friends who used to enjoy watching the game have also stopped watching it. I think it really is a shame but I don't think that Blizzard has had the right direction with the game right from the getgo so this was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the increasing viewer numbers are a bit misleading, I just believe that eSports in general are becoming more popular. For instance, the growth of viewer amounts for something like EVO is significantly higher than that of SC2 tournaments. I wonder if they regret not just re-skinning SCBW. Legacy of the Void might hold some hope but HotS was a gigantic disappointment and I don't expect anything different from Void.
Team-based eSports seem to be the name of the game these days so it's abit surprising how SC2 has not taken the team formats 2v2 - 4v4 seriously at all. I believe that at a highly refined level those formats could prove to be much more entertaining as long as one balances the game for them.
On September 02 2013 15:18 Shikyo wrote: Not all that surprising to be honest. It was very interesting in the beginning but the metagame has been very stagnant. Every time I watch the game I feel like I know what's going to happen and nothing surprising happens. It's been rather dull. Most of my friends who used to enjoy watching the game have also stopped watching it. I think it really is a shame but I don't think that Blizzard has had the right direction with the game right from the getgo so this was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the increasing viewer numbers are a bit misleading, I just believe that eSports in general are becoming more popular. For instance, the growth of viewer amounts for something like EVO is significantly higher than that of SC2 tournaments. I wonder if they regret not just re-skinning SCBW. Legacy of the Void might hold some hope but HotS was a gigantic disappointment and I don't expect anything different from Void.
Team-based eSports seem to be the name of the game these days so it's abit surprising how SC2 has not taken the team formats 2v2 - 4v4 seriously at all. I believe that at a highly refined level those formats could prove to be much more entertaining as long as one balances the game for them.
How would the observer be able to keep up with all the action when they sometimes can barely keep up with 1v1s? Also, theres no way they can balance 1s and team games at an optimal level simultaneously. Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for watching competitive 2s, but its just too much effort to make something like that feasible.
Finally, SC2's poor design is starting to have some serious impact on the scene. It's a pain to play, unforgiving, volatile and frustrating. It's also boring to watch because you can tell who is going to win 10 minutes (or more...) before "gg" is typed, this after watching the same builds for the millionth time. And these are just pointers for the dozens of problems that plague the entire game.
Blizzard really needs to step up their staff choice, DB and DK had do idea that they were burdened with: creating the successor of the game that gave birth to e-sports. That's is why they delivered a badly designed game for competitive multi-player. Colossus, roaches, healer-dropships, forcefields, marauders, infestors, warpgates, death-blobs and all the other stuff they added are fun to play through the campaign for sure. But giving overpowered units like it's candy will create an OP vs OP environment, the exact opposite of what a competitive game needs.
This problematic situation has been masked by the growing scene and by the very supportive community that is behind Starcraft. When those essential things are not enough to make a game into and solid esport one must be in denial to believe that SC2 is a beautiful and great game.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
Actually I think proof that this is being overblown is that this actually wasn't anything big, and everyone now saying that the game sucks( would we really play or have this whole website for three years or have sick games that continually get better even than 2011 if it did?), is how none of it relates to this thread.
This wasn't a cataclysm rather than a sign that STX couldn't keep up with already existing financial troubles. It's not like they were dropped to make room for LoL. I also notice a lot of people posting to have been posting this shit for years.
If anything if its just quality of games Starcraft II will grow in the next three months.
All these rumors were busted, except KeSPa is bigger and Soul is in ESF now. W/e GSTL will still be sick and fruit land.
On September 02 2013 16:40 Pandain wrote: Actually I think proof that this is being overblown is that this actually wasn't anything big, and everyone now saying that the game sucks( would we really play or have this whole website for three years or have sick games that continually get better even than 2011 if it did?), is how none of it relates to this thread.
This wasn't a cataclysm rather than a sign that STX couldn't keep up with already existing financial troubles. It's not like they were dropped to make room for LoL. I also notice a lot of people posting to have been posting this shit for years.
If anything if its just quality of games Starcraft II will grow in the next three months.
All these rumors were busted, except KeSPa is bigger and Soul is in ESF now. W/e GSTL will still be sick and fruit land.
On September 02 2013 16:13 kasumimi wrote: Finally, SC2's poor design is starting to have some serious impact on the scene. It's a pain to play, unforgiving, volatile and frustrating. It's also boring to watch because you can tell who is going to win 10 minutes (or more...) before "gg" is typed, this after watching the same builds for the millionth time. And these are just pointers for the dozens of problems that plague the entire game.
Blizzard really needs to step up their staff choice, DB and DK had do idea that they were burdened with: creating the successor of the game that gave birth to e-sports. That's is why they delivered a badly designed game for competitive multi-player. Colossus, roaches, healer-dropships, forcefields, marauders, infestors, warpgates, death-blobs and all the other stuff they added are fun to play through the campaign for sure. But giving overpowered units like it's candy will create an OP vs OP environment, the exact opposite of what a competitive game needs.
This problematic situation has been masked by the growing scene and by the very supportive community that is behind Starcraft. When those essential things are not enough to make a game into and solid esport one must be in denial to believe that SC2 is a beautiful and great game.
This reflects 100% my very same feelings with Sc2. Fun at first, frustrating and repetitive in the long run. Same for playing or watching. Full of stupidly op and badly designed units, stupidly high dps since beta. It annoys me so much because SC is such an amazing universe and a very solid base for a good competitive game, but Blizz team fucked it up badly.
On September 02 2013 16:40 Pandain wrote: Actually I think proof that this is being overblown is that this actually wasn't anything big, and everyone now saying that the game sucks( would we really play or have this whole website for three years or have sick games that continually get better even than 2011 if it did?), is how none of it relates to this thread.
This wasn't a cataclysm rather than a sign that STX couldn't keep up with already existing financial troubles. It's not like they were dropped to make room for LoL. I also notice a lot of people posting to have been posting this shit for years.
If anything if its just quality of games Starcraft II will grow in the next three months.
All these rumors were busted, except KeSPa is bigger and Soul is in ESF now. W/e GSTL will still be sick and fruit land.
Well a few things are still going to happen, we aren't done yet, there should be a few more retirements for sure, and some teams are still in a bad state, but this is still not bad since the Korean playerbase is just inflated to an extreme degree. I mean seriously, go look at team rosters and consider exactly how many there are! And think about how many will never make an impact, and a lot of them know or suspect so as well, that's why they retire (amongst other things).
Anyway, these threads are strange in a way, since it really is mainly a small loud minority of people who whine about the game, and claim to have stopped watching, and that the game is dying. The 100k people watching WCS finals aren't posting here.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter.
Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport.
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level.
Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
On September 02 2013 15:18 Shikyo wrote: Not all that surprising to be honest. It was very interesting in the beginning but the metagame has been very stagnant. Every time I watch the game I feel like I know what's going to happen and nothing surprising happens. It's been rather dull. Most of my friends who used to enjoy watching the game have also stopped watching it. I think it really is a shame but I don't think that Blizzard has had the right direction with the game right from the getgo so this was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the increasing viewer numbers are a bit misleading, I just believe that eSports in general are becoming more popular. For instance, the growth of viewer amounts for something like EVO is significantly higher than that of SC2 tournaments. I wonder if they regret not just re-skinning SCBW. Legacy of the Void might hold some hope but HotS was a gigantic disappointment and I don't expect anything different from Void.
Team-based eSports seem to be the name of the game these days so it's abit surprising how SC2 has not taken the team formats 2v2 - 4v4 seriously at all. I believe that at a highly refined level those formats could prove to be much more entertaining as long as one balances the game for them.
and that void represents all the drama of sc2... sc2 drama is more fun than watching the game...
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level.
Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends.
I think you folks need to understand that a scene doesn't survive on teams and sponsors, they survive on viewers, and while big events still bring a decent number, SC2 streams are not watched anymore. The interest for the game is amazingly low. Blizzard had 3 years to come up with a more dynamic and interesting game than that "maxed armies in 12 blizzard minutes, and deathball push", and partially helped by the Blizzdrones, they did not do anything. After HoTS, I only wish for Starcraft 2 to die, which is what's happening anyway. They had the best opportunity to kept me and others going in the long term, but they lost it.
Sad though, because the SC2 community is way better than the LoL community which is autism and down syndrome at its best. Thing is, I'm enjoying LoL more than I've ever enjoyed SC2, and bear in mind that I'm a huge RTS fan and i love hard games.
Here's to hoping BW come back after the dust settles. This game still has true passion going for it, even if the whole big forces of E-sports (Kespa and Blizzard, at the time) abandonned it (although Kespa got pretty much paid to leave it).
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter.
Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport.
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
So, your argument boils down to that. If it doesn't work in Korea, it can never ever work anywhere else ever. BW became huge in Korea, but was never mainstream anywhere else. Or even well known anywhere else. I'm guessing eSports didn't exist anywhere until BW came out swinging in Korea either?
Okay then. That's an argument that I'm not going to get involved in, because I just don't see either of us coming to anything remotely like a middle ground, nor do I think you're looking for one. In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to learn to love MOBAs.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter.
Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport.
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
So, your argument boils down to that. If it doesn't work in Korea, it can never ever work anywhere else ever. BW became huge in Korea, but was never mainstream anywhere else. Or even well known anywhere else. I'm guessing eSports didn't exist anywhere until BW came out swinging in Korea either?
Okay then. That's an argument that I'm not going to get involved in, because I just don't see either of us coming to anything remotely like a middle ground, nor do I think you're looking for one. In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to learn to love MOBAs.
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote: [quote]
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter.
Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport.
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
So, your argument boils down to that. If it doesn't work in Korea, it can never ever work anywhere else ever. BW became huge in Korea, but was never mainstream anywhere else. Or even well known anywhere else. I'm guessing eSports didn't exist anywhere until BW came out swinging in Korea either?
Okay then. That's an argument that I'm not going to get involved in, because I just don't see either of us coming to anything remotely like a middle ground, nor do I think you're looking for one. In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to learn to love MOBAs.
You are the entire point.
And you, apparently, need to change your country to Romania.
On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote: Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything.
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. fur Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
Let's address all the things wrong with this post!
This might be a shocker - but sc2 has had only three years 'on it's belt'. You can cry about it being built on the ruin of broodwar because aldskfjksldjfklsfjkkkkk bw semen, but the interactions between units and the tricks of the trade developed over the course of many years of games being played for hours a day between professional players that do nothing but play this exact game.
Then: "they are patching for gold scrubs". 1) Source pls. 2) Apparently patching for gold scrubs still leads to a less than 60% winrate in any matchup, which is awful(?)
Sure sc2 might not be growing any further. BW is coming back slightly because of the forced shrink. Even if BW hadn't been forcibly retired, it's my guess that LoL (or HoN, or Dota2, or something) would have replaced BW eventually. At some point, people who were 8 when bw came out, 15 when it was in it's prime, become 25-30 year olds with jobs and things to do and stop being fans. And then the next generation fills the space-and with the advent of the Moba market, going to pc bangs after school becomes a much more teamwork with friends rather than 1v1 experience. If you had friends in gold while you were in masters, would they want to 1v1 you? Wouldn't you rather play a new, cool, 5 man team game with better graphics and an easier time to learn the basics?
Blizzard's BW crush was a good thing. How much more painful would it have been for you BW purists to watch the game die slowly over a year, or two, or three, as LoL grows in popularity? One year MBC/Oz/FOX are gone... STX the next... Stars the year after that.... TBLS retires and you get players like Rain, Soulkey, and Bogus to take the elite throne... Then one day Samsung disbands.... after that 8th/Green Wings...
At least, with Blizzard Crush, you get to see the BW scene revive itself and grow into a stable but small section of esports. At some point the same thing will happen with sc2, and LoL, and so on-they join shooters and fighters and games like wc3 with pocket scenes instead of full outfits. The only difference is BW is growing into its pocket right now instead of shrinking steadily.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
Cheap? You mean, probably the most pirated game in history? Blizzard needs to make money somehow... has anyone looked at the credits of HoTS lately? They go on forever...
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage.
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. fur Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
Let's address all the things wrong with this post!
This might be a shocker - but sc2 has had only three years 'on it's belt'. You can cry about it being built on the ruin of broodwar because aldskfjksldjfklsfjkkkkk bw semen, but the interactions between units and the tricks of the trade developed over the course of many years of games being played for hours a day between professional players that do nothing but play this exact game.
Then: "they are patching for gold scrubs". 1) Source pls. 2) Apparently patching for gold scrubs still leads to a less than 60% winrate in any matchup, which is awful(?)
Sure sc2 might not be growing any further. BW is coming back slightly because of the forced shrink. Even if BW hadn't been forcibly retired, it's my guess that LoL (or HoN, or Dota2, or something) would have replaced BW eventually. At some point, people who were 8 when bw came out, 15 when it was in it's prime, become 25-30 year olds with jobs and things to do and stop being fans. And then the next generation fills the space-and with the advent of the Moba market, going to pc bangs after school becomes a much more teamwork with friends rather than 1v1 experience. If you had friends in gold while you were in masters, would they want to 1v1 you? Wouldn't you rather play a new, cool, 5 man team game with better graphics and an easier time to learn the basics?
Blizzard's BW crush was a good thing. How much more painful would it have been for you BW purists to watch the game die slowly over a year, or two, or three, as LoL grows in popularity? One year MBC/Oz/FOX are gone... STX the next... Stars the year after that.... TBLS retires and you get players like Rain, Soulkey, and Bogus to take the elite throne... Then one day Samsung disbands.... after that 8th/Green Wings...
At least, with Blizzard Crush, you get to see the BW scene revive itself and grow into a stable but small section of esports. At some point the same thing will happen with sc2, and LoL, and so on-they join shooters and fighters and games like wc3 with pocket scenes instead of full outfits. The only difference is BW is growing into its pocket right now instead of shrinking steadily.
Asking me for source about Blizz patching SC2 for scrubs clearly means you haven't been following your own patching/scene ..
People need to learn about their game's history but anyways, you schmucks won't be having your precious SC2 scene after 2 years or maybe less with the way things are going for you. You didn't even need a fucking scandal for Corporations to back out from your game and the way Blizz is heading, you'll become one of those CoD fanboys who retaliate upon a simple attack on your game. Enjoy your 'have been scene while it lasts'.
On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote: [quote]
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. fur Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
Let's address all the things wrong with this post!
This might be a shocker - but sc2 has had only three years 'on it's belt'. You can cry about it being built on the ruin of broodwar because aldskfjksldjfklsfjkkkkk bw semen, but the interactions between units and the tricks of the trade developed over the course of many years of games being played for hours a day between professional players that do nothing but play this exact game.
Then: "they are patching for gold scrubs". 1) Source pls. 2) Apparently patching for gold scrubs still leads to a less than 60% winrate in any matchup, which is awful(?)
Sure sc2 might not be growing any further. BW is coming back slightly because of the forced shrink. Even if BW hadn't been forcibly retired, it's my guess that LoL (or HoN, or Dota2, or something) would have replaced BW eventually. At some point, people who were 8 when bw came out, 15 when it was in it's prime, become 25-30 year olds with jobs and things to do and stop being fans. And then the next generation fills the space-and with the advent of the Moba market, going to pc bangs after school becomes a much more teamwork with friends rather than 1v1 experience. If you had friends in gold while you were in masters, would they want to 1v1 you? Wouldn't you rather play a new, cool, 5 man team game with better graphics and an easier time to learn the basics?
Blizzard's BW crush was a good thing. How much more painful would it have been for you BW purists to watch the game die slowly over a year, or two, or three, as LoL grows in popularity? One year MBC/Oz/FOX are gone... STX the next... Stars the year after that.... TBLS retires and you get players like Rain, Soulkey, and Bogus to take the elite throne... Then one day Samsung disbands.... after that 8th/Green Wings...
At least, with Blizzard Crush, you get to see the BW scene revive itself and grow into a stable but small section of esports. At some point the same thing will happen with sc2, and LoL, and so on-they join shooters and fighters and games like wc3 with pocket scenes instead of full outfits. The only difference is BW is growing into its pocket right now instead of shrinking steadily.
Asking me for source about Blizz patching SC2 for scrubs clearly means you haven't been following your own patching/scene ..
People need to learn about their game's history but anyways, you schmucks won't be having your precious SC2 scene after 2 years or maybe less with the way things are going for you. You didn't even need a fucking scandal for Corporations to back out from your game and the way Blizz is heading, you'll become one of those CoD fanboys who retaliate upon a simple attack on your game. Enjoy your 'have been scene while it lasts'.
Fanboys can't even handle off-season pressure.
I may actually agree with you, but the way you're arguing is incredibly fucking frustrating. I can't even read your entire post without feeling shitty my self, thats how much your attitude leaks on to others when you're like that.
Too much doom saying in SC2 scene, needs more people actually doing things.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.)
Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team...
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level.
Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends.
very true indeed... to be fare, i think blizz is doing their best... its just it isn't enough or simply incompentent (haha!).
when can we see a 2v2 SC2 just like in BW Proleague before? so we can see TEAM plays....
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level.
Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup.
On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends.
very true indeed... to be fare, i think blizz is doing their best... its just it isn't enough or simply incompentent (haha!).
when can we see a 2v2 SC2 just like in BW Proleague before? so we can see TEAM plays....
@WAXANGEL
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can someone remind me the reason Proleague dropped 2v2 anyone? As for 2v2 SC2.... it would be worse than worst MOBA ever made.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.)
Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team...
Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.)
Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team...
Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market.
Exactly, which LoL being so popular in Korea it only makes sense for SKT and KT to focus on LoL. But that doesn't mean there isn't value in the SC2 scene for Korean companies with a larger international market. Companies like Acer(who is not Korean, but still invests in the scene) and Samsung are willing to put money out there. Its just a question of which teams can find these sponsorships and where the sponsors want the viewers. If there are more foreign viewers for GSTL, then they will focus there. If their sponsor is mostly based in Korea, then Proleague is likely the place.
It will take time to short this stuff out, but its not the crazy end of the days like people say it is.
Edit: I think shaftofpleasure is playing the role of all BW elitist rolled into one, with his own super agro take on the role. He is trying for some sort of TL award.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.)
Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team...
Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market.
Exactly, which LoL being so popular in Korea it only makes sense for SKT and KT to focus on LoL. But that doesn't mean there isn't value in the SC2 scene for Korean companies with a larger international market. Companies like Acer(who is not Korean, but still invests in the scene) and Samsung are willing to put money out there. Its just a question of which teams can find these sponsorships and where the sponsors want the viewers. If there are more foreign viewers for GSTL, then they will focus there. If their sponsor is mostly based in Korea, then Proleague is likely the place.
It will take time to short this stuff out, but its not the crazy end of the days like people say it is.
Edit: I think shaftofpleasure is playing the role of all BW elitist rolled into one, with his own super agro take on the role. He is trying for some sort of TL award.
So TL staff gives away the TL award for the most annoying naysayer?
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.)
Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team...
Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market.
Exactly, which LoL being so popular in Korea it only makes sense for SKT and KT to focus on LoL. But that doesn't mean there isn't value in the SC2 scene for Korean companies with a larger international market. Companies like Acer(who is not Korean, but still invests in the scene) and Samsung are willing to put money out there. Its just a question of which teams can find these sponsorships and where the sponsors want the viewers. If there are more foreign viewers for GSTL, then they will focus there. If their sponsor is mostly based in Korea, then Proleague is likely the place.
It will take time to short this stuff out, but its not the crazy end of the days like people say it is.
Edit: I think shaftofpleasure is playing the role of all BW elitist rolled into one, with his own super agro take on the role. He is trying for some sort of TL award.
So TL staff gives away the TL award for the most annoying naysayer?
TL+ has the shitpost hall of fame, but that is a community effort to preserve the finest TL has to offer. It won't take the lead, which will be held by the shit post of shit posts for some time, but it could get an honorable mention. But there should be a Most Illogical Dooms Day Prophet TL award. I feel the field would be ripe with strong contenders.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
$26.2 BILLION profit FY2012, $470B in assets EOY 2012. 2013 has been an amazing year for the company as well- they're poised to do literally whatever they want, as they eat more and more mobile market share and Apple becomes passe. Once they finish adding graphene into battery technology to sell to car manufacturers (which they are currently doing), the company is poised to literally throw money at whatever they want.
A gaming sponsorship program program would be less than pennies to a company both of their market capitalization and growth rate- however, generating buzz in the 18-35 year old crowd is golden. Samsung has always been one of the better companies as far as physical hardware is concerned (their TV's, monitors, and phones at least), and now all they need to do is get that Google/2002Apple image with the young crowd. The Galaxy tablets and S3/S4 phone are doing just that, and anything they can do to become the "hip tech company" they will. eSports is a very, very cheap investment for a company with $270+B in revenue annually.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
Cheap? You mean, probably the most pirated game in history? Blizzard needs to make money somehow... has anyone looked at the credits of HoTS lately? They go on forever...
Yeah, because all those people who pirated BW clearly ended up purchasing HotS, right? Oh wait, nope. That's not what happened. I'm not sure how many examples it's going to take before people realize that the people who pirate games en masse are not people who would otherwise purchase the game, particularly when the piracy occurs in countries like Korea or China (Wc3/DotA) wherein purchasing expensive games + PCs is quite rare and the LAN model thrives.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Fucking spot on, people play games because they are fun. And that's the most important thing.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
$26.2 BILLION profit FY2012, $470B in assets EOY 2012. 2013 has been an amazing year for the company as well- they're poised to do literally whatever they want, as they eat more and more mobile market share and Apple becomes passe. Once they finish adding graphene into battery technology to sell to car manufacturers (which they are currently doing), the company is poised to literally throw money at whatever they want.
A gaming sponsorship program program would be less than pennies to a company both of their market capitalization and growth rate- however, generating buzz in the 18-35 year old crowd is golden. Samsung has always been one of the better companies as far as physical hardware is concerned (their TV's, monitors, and phones at least), and now all they need to do is get that Google/2002Apple image with the young crowd. The Galaxy tablets and S3/S4 phone are doing just that, and anything they can do to become the "hip tech company" they will. eSports is a very, very cheap investment for a company with $270+B in revenue annually.
Its should also be pointed out that the 18-35 year old crowd are almost impossible(from a marketing standpoint) to deliver ads to. We are very good at dodging ads. Sundance, in one of his more interesting tweets, liked to a study they did comparing Esports fans and watching ads and normal people watching youtube videos and other media. The number of ads watched and hours watched that like 3-5 times higher(or more, I can't remember, it was a year ago or more). Its super compelling for people selling ads, since it is almost impossible to get ads to us normally(because we are very good at avoiding them).
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level.
Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup.
On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends.
very true indeed... to be fare, i think blizz is doing their best... its just it isn't enough or simply incompentent (haha!).
when can we see a 2v2 SC2 just like in BW Proleague before? so we can see TEAM plays....
@WAXANGEL
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can someone remind me the reason Proleague dropped 2v2 anyone? As for 2v2 SC2.... it would be worse than worst MOBA ever made.
There was 2v2 for a while but they said that there was a drop in viewership when they aired the 2v2 matches unless they were all "star" players. So they dropped the format and went back strictly to seven 1v1 matches.
On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote: You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel. Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level.
Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup.
On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends.
very true indeed... to be fare, i think blizz is doing their best... its just it isn't enough or simply incompentent (haha!).
when can we see a 2v2 SC2 just like in BW Proleague before? so we can see TEAM plays....
@WAXANGEL
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can someone remind me the reason Proleague dropped 2v2 anyone? As for 2v2 SC2.... it would be worse than worst MOBA ever made.
There was 2v2 for a while but they said that there was a drop in viewership when they aired the 2v2 matches unless they were all "star" players. So they dropped the format and went back strictly to seven 1v1 matches.
Hah, makes sense. So essentially Koreans preferred having fun themselves and watch pros not have any of it :D
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote: What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Fucking spot on, people play games because they are fun. And that's the most important thing.
The most annoying thing to me, is seeing people talking about how game X is bad because its casual. Please read again... game - casual I will write again... game - casual In what world this people think a game (in a non pro perspective) shouldn't be casual?
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
Exactly my point. My first experience with MLG in person was "Holy crap, more than half this crowd is over 21. Why is all the advertising aimed at 15 year olds?". That first MLG (DC, 2011 I think) was a real eye-opener for me. Yes, it had cool lighting and stages. But there was no alcohol sales, no food sales, and all advertising was aimed at energy drinks and hot pockets. What marketer really believes that the gaming culture has stayed the same since 1997? Gamers as a whole have grown up- the products have only been out for 20 years anyway.
Want to cater to my lifestyle? Have a full bar with craft beers, and decent food. Make it a place I can bring my other adult friends that doesn't completely alienate non-gamers. Make watching WCS in person with friends a viable option to going to Champps to watch the NFL. Bam, there's your industry right there. Sportsbars have carried mainstream sports for years, and eSports needs that merchandising to sustain the industry.
On September 02 2013 16:13 kasumimi wrote: Finally, SC2's poor design is starting to have some serious impact on the scene. It's a pain to play, unforgiving, volatile and frustrating. It's also boring to watch because you can tell who is going to win 10 minutes (or more...) before "gg" is typed, this after watching the same builds for the millionth time. And these are just pointers for the dozens of problems that plague the entire game.
Blizzard really needs to step up their staff choice, DB and DK had do idea that they were burdened with: creating the successor of the game that gave birth to e-sports. That's is why they delivered a badly designed game for competitive multi-player. Colossus, roaches, healer-dropships, forcefields, marauders, infestors, warpgates, death-blobs and all the other stuff they added are fun to play through the campaign for sure. But giving overpowered units like it's candy will create an OP vs OP environment, the exact opposite of what a competitive game needs.
This problematic situation has been masked by the growing scene and by the very supportive community that is behind Starcraft. When those essential things are not enough to make a game into and solid esport one must be in denial to believe that SC2 is a beautiful and great game.
This post reflect my thought exactly. I hardly even watch SC2 anymore, let alone play it. And I used watch and play it daily. I think the game starting going downhill (for me at least) when they nerfed ghosts in WoL . Before that TvZ was a pleasure to watch and a battle between two highly skilled players was very impressive. After than (and the Queen range buff) things became much more predictable with BL+infestor dominating everything.
I think the problem with SC2 as opposed to LoL is that in LoL introducing new champions changes the game completely and not making it stale at all. In an RTS, you can't just do that.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
Exactly my point. My first experience with MLG in person was "Holy crap, more than half this crowd is over 21. Why is all the advertising aimed at 15 year olds?". That first MLG (DC, 2011 I think) was a real eye-opener for me. Yes, it had cool lighting and stages. But there was no alcohol sales, no food sales, and all advertising was aimed at energy drinks and hot pockets. What marketer really believes that the gaming culture has stayed the same since 1997? Gamers as a whole have grown up- the products have only been out for 20 years anyway.
Want to cater to my lifestyle? Have a full bar with craft beers, and decent food. Make it a place I can bring my other adult friends that doesn't completely alienate non-gamers. Make watching WCS in person with friends a viable option to going to Champps to watch the NFL. Bam, there's your industry right there. Sportsbars have carried mainstream sports for years, and eSports needs that merchandising to sustain the industry.
It is one of the growing pains of Esports is getting people to understand that the people who love these games are not 17 year old kids who love hot pockets and NOS. I cannot eat that crap, my stomic will revolt against me and punish me for my transgression. Redbull getting into the scene is nice, but I want sponsored Barcrafts in each city. Boston’s barcraft scene sucks right now and there is nothing to watch at local bars(we have one that is run every 2 months or so for large events). SC2 should have ads aimed at me. I am their prime demographic, a professional who is over 30 with stable income. My demographic is the most desirable of all demographics. Some local beer company needs to sponsor a barcraft in my area and get me buying their beer.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
Exactly my point. My first experience with MLG in person was "Holy crap, more than half this crowd is over 21. Why is all the advertising aimed at 15 year olds?". That first MLG (DC, 2011 I think) was a real eye-opener for me. Yes, it had cool lighting and stages. But there was no alcohol sales, no food sales, and all advertising was aimed at energy drinks and hot pockets. What marketer really believes that the gaming culture has stayed the same since 1997? Gamers as a whole have grown up- the products have only been out for 20 years anyway.
Want to cater to my lifestyle? Have a full bar with craft beers, and decent food. Make it a place I can bring my other adult friends that doesn't completely alienate non-gamers. Make watching WCS in person with friends a viable option to going to Champps to watch the NFL. Bam, there's your industry right there. Sportsbars have carried mainstream sports for years, and eSports needs that merchandising to sustain the industry.
It is one of the growing pains of Esports is getting people to understand that the people who love these games are not 17 year old kids who love hot pockets and NOS. I cannot eat that crap, my stomic will revolt against me and punish me for my transgression. Redbull getting into the scene is nice, but I want sponsored Barcrafts in each city. Boston’s barcraft scene sucks right now and there is nothing to watch at local bars(we have one that is run every 2 months or so for large events). SC2 should have ads aimed at me. I am their prime demographic, a professional who is over 30 with stable income. My demographic is the most desirable of all demographics. Some local beer company needs to sponsor a barcraft in my area and get me buying their beer.
We could keep complaning, or do something to help- I smell an opportunity. My current circle of friends is 25-31 years old, 70%-30% split male to female. We have 3 PhD's, 1 MD, 2 JD's, 1 MBA, 1 PMP... and an admitted one or two brokeass nerds. We enjoy a range of traditionally "nerdy" activities, such as SC2, LoL, MTG, Settlers of Cataan, Dominion, etc. We have stable incomes, solid careers, plenty of disposable income. We do *not* want the "ultimate gaming experience" when we go out- why isn't there an adult gaming experience (as a note, Dave and Busters is still quite successful)? We need some champions among the aging community to pitch business partnerships and ventures with possible vendors and sponsors.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
Exactly my point. My first experience with MLG in person was "Holy crap, more than half this crowd is over 21. Why is all the advertising aimed at 15 year olds?". That first MLG (DC, 2011 I think) was a real eye-opener for me. Yes, it had cool lighting and stages. But there was no alcohol sales, no food sales, and all advertising was aimed at energy drinks and hot pockets. What marketer really believes that the gaming culture has stayed the same since 1997? Gamers as a whole have grown up- the products have only been out for 20 years anyway.
Want to cater to my lifestyle? Have a full bar with craft beers, and decent food. Make it a place I can bring my other adult friends that doesn't completely alienate non-gamers. Make watching WCS in person with friends a viable option to going to Champps to watch the NFL. Bam, there's your industry right there. Sportsbars have carried mainstream sports for years, and eSports needs that merchandising to sustain the industry.
It is one of the growing pains of Esports is getting people to understand that the people who love these games are not 17 year old kids who love hot pockets and NOS. I cannot eat that crap, my stomic will revolt against me and punish me for my transgression. Redbull getting into the scene is nice, but I want sponsored Barcrafts in each city. Boston’s barcraft scene sucks right now and there is nothing to watch at local bars(we have one that is run every 2 months or so for large events). SC2 should have ads aimed at me. I am their prime demographic, a professional who is over 30 with stable income. My demographic is the most desirable of all demographics. Some local beer company needs to sponsor a barcraft in my area and get me buying their beer.
We could keep complaning, or do something to help- I smell an opportunity. My current circle of friends is 25-31 years old, 70%-30% split male to female. We have 3 PhD's, 1 MD, 2 JD's, 1 MBA, 1 PMP... and an admitted one or two brokeass nerds. We enjoy a range of traditionally "nerdy" activities, such as SC2, LoL, MTG, Settlers of Cataan, Dominion, etc. We have stable incomes, solid careers, plenty of disposable income. We do *not* want the "ultimate gaming experience" when we go out- why isn't there an adult gaming experience (as a note, Dave and Busters is still quite successful)? We need some champions among the aging community to pitch business partnerships and ventures with possible vendors and sponsors.
OMG, the ultimate gaming house that is filled with bad chairs and tables bought at Target and is all primary colors. Every time one of those came on, my girlfriend and would mock them endlessly for how terrible the rooms looked afterwards. There was one where they removed the bed from a couples room. The bed! Where did they sleep afterwards?
This is the problem with the scene right now is that everyone can’t figure out how to market Esports. The Papa Johns push was good for a national chain food, but we need more. I want PBR to sponsor a team(I keep saying PBR because they are the most likely beer to do it, they market to crazy shit). I want my Esports to focus on adults, since we have way less time for internet outrage. Seriously, if supporting a team also lets me buy beer, its like win/win/win. The team gets support and I win twice because I bought beer. Also, I am sure the company making the beer is happy.
On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote: Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
Exactly my point. My first experience with MLG in person was "Holy crap, more than half this crowd is over 21. Why is all the advertising aimed at 15 year olds?". That first MLG (DC, 2011 I think) was a real eye-opener for me. Yes, it had cool lighting and stages. But there was no alcohol sales, no food sales, and all advertising was aimed at energy drinks and hot pockets. What marketer really believes that the gaming culture has stayed the same since 1997? Gamers as a whole have grown up- the products have only been out for 20 years anyway.
Want to cater to my lifestyle? Have a full bar with craft beers, and decent food. Make it a place I can bring my other adult friends that doesn't completely alienate non-gamers. Make watching WCS in person with friends a viable option to going to Champps to watch the NFL. Bam, there's your industry right there. Sportsbars have carried mainstream sports for years, and eSports needs that merchandising to sustain the industry.
It is one of the growing pains of Esports is getting people to understand that the people who love these games are not 17 year old kids who love hot pockets and NOS. I cannot eat that crap, my stomic will revolt against me and punish me for my transgression. Redbull getting into the scene is nice, but I want sponsored Barcrafts in each city. Boston’s barcraft scene sucks right now and there is nothing to watch at local bars(we have one that is run every 2 months or so for large events). SC2 should have ads aimed at me. I am their prime demographic, a professional who is over 30 with stable income. My demographic is the most desirable of all demographics. Some local beer company needs to sponsor a barcraft in my area and get me buying their beer.
We could keep complaning, or do something to help- I smell an opportunity. My current circle of friends is 25-31 years old, 70%-30% split male to female. We have 3 PhD's, 1 MD, 2 JD's, 1 MBA, 1 PMP... and an admitted one or two brokeass nerds. We enjoy a range of traditionally "nerdy" activities, such as SC2, LoL, MTG, Settlers of Cataan, Dominion, etc. We have stable incomes, solid careers, plenty of disposable income. We do *not* want the "ultimate gaming experience" when we go out- why isn't there an adult gaming experience (as a note, Dave and Busters is still quite successful)? We need some champions among the aging community to pitch business partnerships and ventures with possible vendors and sponsors.
OMG, the ultimate gaming house that is filled with bad chairs and tables bought at Target and is all primary colors. Every time one of those came on, my girlfriend and would mock them endlessly for how terrible the rooms looked afterwards. There was one where they removed the bed from a couples room. The bed! Where did they sleep afterwards?
This is the problem with the scene right now is that everyone can’t figure out how to market Esports. The Papa Johns push was good for a national chain food, but we need more. I want PBR to sponsor a team(I keep saying PBR because they are the most likely beer to do it, they market to crazy shit). I want my Esports to focus on adults, since we have way less time for internet outrage. Seriously, if supporting a team also lets me buy beer, its like win/win/win. The team gets support and I win twice because I bought beer. Also, I am sure the company making the beer is happy.
You both know that Meltdown is looking for people willing to invest time and money into franchise operations, right?
I have to admit, even in Podunkacola, Florida, has a bar called "Play". It's theoretically a game bar, but it's aimed at an even older or more casual demographic. (Sports games, air hockey tables, darts, arcade style machines.) It's a good attempt, even if it comes out somewhat off-center and not quite on target - not to mention it's pretty small, you couldn't set up a decent LAN party there without trying to work around the required bar pool table.
I don't know about PBR, though... I mean, don't get me wrong, cheap hipster beer is sometimes necessary, but I would rather swill something with a touch more quality to their product. At least Sam Adams or Yeungling.
The problem with alcoholic beverage sponsorship, though, is the same as the mythical Brazzers sponsorship. Companies firmly aiming at an adult audience behind games which are still marketed largely to a younger audience. (As a note, swing by the TL census thread - the demographic is aging but it still trends young outside of outliers like myself and big outliers like Bill Amend when compared to the general population.) I'm thinking we may be moving, in general for all eSports, towards that kind of shift, but it's still a bit off in the future.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
Exactly my point. My first experience with MLG in person was "Holy crap, more than half this crowd is over 21. Why is all the advertising aimed at 15 year olds?". That first MLG (DC, 2011 I think) was a real eye-opener for me. Yes, it had cool lighting and stages. But there was no alcohol sales, no food sales, and all advertising was aimed at energy drinks and hot pockets. What marketer really believes that the gaming culture has stayed the same since 1997? Gamers as a whole have grown up- the products have only been out for 20 years anyway.
Want to cater to my lifestyle? Have a full bar with craft beers, and decent food. Make it a place I can bring my other adult friends that doesn't completely alienate non-gamers. Make watching WCS in person with friends a viable option to going to Champps to watch the NFL. Bam, there's your industry right there. Sportsbars have carried mainstream sports for years, and eSports needs that merchandising to sustain the industry.
It is one of the growing pains of Esports is getting people to understand that the people who love these games are not 17 year old kids who love hot pockets and NOS. I cannot eat that crap, my stomic will revolt against me and punish me for my transgression. Redbull getting into the scene is nice, but I want sponsored Barcrafts in each city. Boston’s barcraft scene sucks right now and there is nothing to watch at local bars(we have one that is run every 2 months or so for large events). SC2 should have ads aimed at me. I am their prime demographic, a professional who is over 30 with stable income. My demographic is the most desirable of all demographics. Some local beer company needs to sponsor a barcraft in my area and get me buying their beer.
We could keep complaning, or do something to help- I smell an opportunity. My current circle of friends is 25-31 years old, 70%-30% split male to female. We have 3 PhD's, 1 MD, 2 JD's, 1 MBA, 1 PMP... and an admitted one or two brokeass nerds. We enjoy a range of traditionally "nerdy" activities, such as SC2, LoL, MTG, Settlers of Cataan, Dominion, etc. We have stable incomes, solid careers, plenty of disposable income. We do *not* want the "ultimate gaming experience" when we go out- why isn't there an adult gaming experience (as a note, Dave and Busters is still quite successful)? We need some champions among the aging community to pitch business partnerships and ventures with possible vendors and sponsors.
OMG, the ultimate gaming house that is filled with bad chairs and tables bought at Target and is all primary colors. Every time one of those came on, my girlfriend and would mock them endlessly for how terrible the rooms looked afterwards. There was one where they removed the bed from a couples room. The bed! Where did they sleep afterwards?
This is the problem with the scene right now is that everyone can’t figure out how to market Esports. The Papa Johns push was good for a national chain food, but we need more. I want PBR to sponsor a team(I keep saying PBR because they are the most likely beer to do it, they market to crazy shit). I want my Esports to focus on adults, since we have way less time for internet outrage. Seriously, if supporting a team also lets me buy beer, its like win/win/win. The team gets support and I win twice because I bought beer. Also, I am sure the company making the beer is happy.
You both know that Meltdown is looking for people willing to invest time and money into franchise operations, right?
I have to admit, even in Podunkacola, Florida, has a bar called "Play". It's theoretically a game bar, but it's aimed at an even older or more casual demographic. (Sports games, air hockey tables, darts, arcade style machines.) It's a good attempt, even if it comes out somewhat off-center and not quite on target - not to mention it's pretty small, you couldn't set up a decent LAN party there without trying to work around the required bar pool table.
I don't know about PBR, though... I mean, don't get me wrong, cheap hipster beer is sometimes necessary, but I would rather swill something with a touch more quality to their product. At least Sam Adams or Yeungling.
The problem with alcoholic beverage sponsorship, though, is the same as the mythical Brazzers sponsorship. Companies firmly aiming at an adult audience behind games which are still marketed largely to a younger audience. (As a note, swing by the TL census thread - the demographic is aging but it still trends young outside of outliers like myself and big outliers like Bill Amend when compared to the general population.) I'm thinking we may be moving, in general for all eSports, towards that kind of shift, but it's still a bit off in the future.
PBR was not cheap hipster beer before hipsters ruined it by all drinking it ironically. Some of us drank it before because it was good cheap beer that you could drink on a hot day. Hipsters ruin things that you enjoy by making you associated with hipsters. And they sponsor NPR, so I assume they are willing to throw money anywhere.
And the Brazzers thing was just a bad idea and no one would touch that with a 10 foot pole. When the FGC won't accept a sponsor and says its a bad idea, its a bad idea. That is a metric we should all live by. PBR could sponsor a team and it would be fine and I would say "All America" in the best way possible.
On September 03 2013 22:39 Shiori wrote: [quote] Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
Which is why we need to convince them to build the Samsung Esports studio in California. If you build it, they will come.
Samsung eSports Arena, bro. With beer and hotdogs.
Exactly. We a LAN outside where I can buy both beer and hotdogs and play with friend. Really, they just need a bunch of beer. Lets bring Esports to grown up land, where it should have started in the first place. I want PBR to sponsor a team, they are already on NPR, so they clearly like throwing money weird places.
Exactly my point. My first experience with MLG in person was "Holy crap, more than half this crowd is over 21. Why is all the advertising aimed at 15 year olds?". That first MLG (DC, 2011 I think) was a real eye-opener for me. Yes, it had cool lighting and stages. But there was no alcohol sales, no food sales, and all advertising was aimed at energy drinks and hot pockets. What marketer really believes that the gaming culture has stayed the same since 1997? Gamers as a whole have grown up- the products have only been out for 20 years anyway.
Want to cater to my lifestyle? Have a full bar with craft beers, and decent food. Make it a place I can bring my other adult friends that doesn't completely alienate non-gamers. Make watching WCS in person with friends a viable option to going to Champps to watch the NFL. Bam, there's your industry right there. Sportsbars have carried mainstream sports for years, and eSports needs that merchandising to sustain the industry.
It is one of the growing pains of Esports is getting people to understand that the people who love these games are not 17 year old kids who love hot pockets and NOS. I cannot eat that crap, my stomic will revolt against me and punish me for my transgression. Redbull getting into the scene is nice, but I want sponsored Barcrafts in each city. Boston’s barcraft scene sucks right now and there is nothing to watch at local bars(we have one that is run every 2 months or so for large events). SC2 should have ads aimed at me. I am their prime demographic, a professional who is over 30 with stable income. My demographic is the most desirable of all demographics. Some local beer company needs to sponsor a barcraft in my area and get me buying their beer.
We could keep complaning, or do something to help- I smell an opportunity. My current circle of friends is 25-31 years old, 70%-30% split male to female. We have 3 PhD's, 1 MD, 2 JD's, 1 MBA, 1 PMP... and an admitted one or two brokeass nerds. We enjoy a range of traditionally "nerdy" activities, such as SC2, LoL, MTG, Settlers of Cataan, Dominion, etc. We have stable incomes, solid careers, plenty of disposable income. We do *not* want the "ultimate gaming experience" when we go out- why isn't there an adult gaming experience (as a note, Dave and Busters is still quite successful)? We need some champions among the aging community to pitch business partnerships and ventures with possible vendors and sponsors.
OMG, the ultimate gaming house that is filled with bad chairs and tables bought at Target and is all primary colors. Every time one of those came on, my girlfriend and would mock them endlessly for how terrible the rooms looked afterwards. There was one where they removed the bed from a couples room. The bed! Where did they sleep afterwards?
This is the problem with the scene right now is that everyone can’t figure out how to market Esports. The Papa Johns push was good for a national chain food, but we need more. I want PBR to sponsor a team(I keep saying PBR because they are the most likely beer to do it, they market to crazy shit). I want my Esports to focus on adults, since we have way less time for internet outrage. Seriously, if supporting a team also lets me buy beer, its like win/win/win. The team gets support and I win twice because I bought beer. Also, I am sure the company making the beer is happy.
You both know that Meltdown is looking for people willing to invest time and money into franchise operations, right?
I have to admit, even in Podunkacola, Florida, has a bar called "Play". It's theoretically a game bar, but it's aimed at an even older or more casual demographic. (Sports games, air hockey tables, darts, arcade style machines.) It's a good attempt, even if it comes out somewhat off-center and not quite on target - not to mention it's pretty small, you couldn't set up a decent LAN party there without trying to work around the required bar pool table.
I don't know about PBR, though... I mean, don't get me wrong, cheap hipster beer is sometimes necessary, but I would rather swill something with a touch more quality to their product. At least Sam Adams or Yeungling.
The problem with alcoholic beverage sponsorship, though, is the same as the mythical Brazzers sponsorship. Companies firmly aiming at an adult audience behind games which are still marketed largely to a younger audience. (As a note, swing by the TL census thread - the demographic is aging but it still trends young outside of outliers like myself and big outliers like Bill Amend when compared to the general population.) I'm thinking we may be moving, in general for all eSports, towards that kind of shift, but it's still a bit off in the future.
PBR was not cheap hipster beer before hipsters ruined it by all drinking it ironically. Some of us drank it before because it was good cheap beer that you could drink on a hot day. Hipsters ruin things that you enjoy by making you associated with hipsters. And they sponsor NPR, so I assume they are willing to throw money anywhere.
And the Brazzers thing was just a bad idea and no one would touch that with a 10 foot pole. When the FGC won't accept a sponsor and says its a bad idea, its a bad idea. That is a metric we should all live by. PBR could sponsor a team and it would be fine and I would say "All America" in the best way possible.
I've had PBR, and I have to say that I think it's a bit overrated in general. Even before the hipster factor shows up. The issue that comes up with Brazzers is that it's extremely adult content - and you have to worry about the (generally not entirely accurate) aura around pornography winding up becoming a negative factor. With alcoholic beverages, it might be less, but you're still going to have a bunch of madd people screaming "Think of the children!" Because, as much as it's getting better, there is still a strong association in minds that games are for kids. Even when the evidence is suggesting that adults enjoy games just as much, and that the trend is increasing.
On September 04 2013 16:09 Fionn wrote: Well they hired Coach Park and seem to be the only KeSPA team who is producing strong new blood into the scene like Bunny, Shark, Sora, etc.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
It's in community news for both games anyway. Everyone who follows either game will see it, but it is more relevant for BW players than SC2 players because Bisu has done fuck all in SC2 and was a God in BW.
That's why it is in the BW forum. It has nothing to do with overreacting or anything.
The "Jangbi plays SSL" thread was in the SC2 forums for hours and had mods posting in it despite it having literally zero to do with SC2 and everything to do with BW.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
Well, it's just a speculation, since obviously the decline of SC2 also means the declines of the popularity, income, and resources to TL.net
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
It's in community news for both games anyway. Everyone who follows either game will see it, but it is more relevant for BW players than SC2 players because Bisu has done fuck all in SC2 and was a God in BW.
That's why it is in the BW forum. It has nothing to do with overreacting or anything.
It should be defined as the players' current game, otherwise it's damn arbitrary to define who is more relevant to one game not the other. To me, Bisu means so much in SC2 as well. It's arbitrary but I guess it's ok since this is a forum not a democracy.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
yes mate.... your barking at the right tree...
probably not, sorry. The idea is just so fucked up, i couldn't help it :> I mean it would be a twisted logic to dedicate yourself to the Starcraft universe and cut this peace of information out delibaretely. Perhaps it's a mistake anyway..
btw: there already was a according thread in the BW section. So it's no point arguing to what subforum this piece of news is more relevant.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
yes mate.... your barking at the right tree...
probably not, sorry. The idea is just so fucked up, i couldn't help it :> I mean it would be a twisted logic to dedicate yourself to the Starcraft universe and cut this peace of information out delibaretely. Perhaps it's a mistake anyway..
btw: there already was a according thread in the BW section. So it's no point arguing to what subforum this piece of news is more relevant.
i thought you were looking for "death of sc2" thread and not bw. no better thread than this...
got to admit, riding this bus seems enjoyable....
well, tl has some rights... we need to protect our interests though...
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
Wait, wait. You arent allowed to discuss the retiring of one of the most famous Starcraft players of all time from SC2, because people might overreact to it?
That's seriously messed up. I propose there should be thread and let the people ramble about the "death of sc2" if they need to.
yes mate.... your barking at the right tree...
probably not, sorry. The idea is just so fucked up, i couldn't help it :> I mean it would be a twisted logic to dedicate yourself to the Starcraft universe and cut this peace of information out delibaretely. Perhaps it's a mistake anyway..
btw: there already was a according thread in the BW section. So it's no point arguing to what subforum this piece of news is more relevant.
No it was in SC2, then got moved to BW. I asked why it got moved to have two in BW and then it got moved back. No idea who did the moving in either case, but it was moved twice.
On September 01 2013 01:59 algue wrote: *Banshee* : "Apocalypse... Now !" Your move Blizzard ! Edit : I'm also waiting for an other post from Incontrol saying that everything is fine
can we get an official response from incontrol in this thread please? it's lacking his presence.
On September 09 2013 13:34 Cele wrote: oh, in order to contribute: Bisu retired today, but the thread was moved to BW forums. Evil minds do know why!
Is the catastrophe upon us?
It is moved to BW forum because there are simply too many SC2 is dying threads in SC2 forum. So they decided to reduce this sentiment by dividing SC2 is dying threads to different locations when it is possible.
EPT
INnoVation vs 
Hurricane first match
![[image loading]](http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/fc3dae3c813df05c0feda1031430337f60a0ba61_m.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DsJpPIz.png)
