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On September 02 2013 20:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:36 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing. So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity? The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.) I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.) We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. fur Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor. Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
Let's address all the things wrong with this post!
This might be a shocker - but sc2 has had only three years 'on it's belt'. You can cry about it being built on the ruin of broodwar because aldskfjksldjfklsfjkkkkk bw semen, but the interactions between units and the tricks of the trade developed over the course of many years of games being played for hours a day between professional players that do nothing but play this exact game.
Then: "they are patching for gold scrubs". 1) Source pls. 2) Apparently patching for gold scrubs still leads to a less than 60% winrate in any matchup, which is awful(?)
Sure sc2 might not be growing any further. BW is coming back slightly because of the forced shrink. Even if BW hadn't been forcibly retired, it's my guess that LoL (or HoN, or Dota2, or something) would have replaced BW eventually. At some point, people who were 8 when bw came out, 15 when it was in it's prime, become 25-30 year olds with jobs and things to do and stop being fans. And then the next generation fills the space-and with the advent of the Moba market, going to pc bangs after school becomes a much more teamwork with friends rather than 1v1 experience. If you had friends in gold while you were in masters, would they want to 1v1 you? Wouldn't you rather play a new, cool, 5 man team game with better graphics and an easier time to learn the basics?
Blizzard's BW crush was a good thing. How much more painful would it have been for you BW purists to watch the game die slowly over a year, or two, or three, as LoL grows in popularity? One year MBC/Oz/FOX are gone... STX the next... Stars the year after that.... TBLS retires and you get players like Rain, Soulkey, and Bogus to take the elite throne... Then one day Samsung disbands.... after that 8th/Green Wings...
At least, with Blizzard Crush, you get to see the BW scene revive itself and grow into a stable but small section of esports. At some point the same thing will happen with sc2, and LoL, and so on-they join shooters and fighters and games like wc3 with pocket scenes instead of full outfits. The only difference is BW is growing into its pocket right now instead of shrinking steadily.
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On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically. Cheap? You mean, probably the most pirated game in history?
Blizzard needs to make money somehow... has anyone looked at the credits of HoTS lately? They go on forever...
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On September 03 2013 14:32 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 16:36 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing. So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity? The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.) I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.) We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. fur Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor. Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream?? Let's address all the things wrong with this post! This might be a shocker - but sc2 has had only three years 'on it's belt'. You can cry about it being built on the ruin of broodwar because aldskfjksldjfklsfjkkkkk bw semen, but the interactions between units and the tricks of the trade developed over the course of many years of games being played for hours a day between professional players that do nothing but play this exact game. Then: "they are patching for gold scrubs". 1) Source pls. 2) Apparently patching for gold scrubs still leads to a less than 60% winrate in any matchup, which is awful(?) Sure sc2 might not be growing any further. BW is coming back slightly because of the forced shrink. Even if BW hadn't been forcibly retired, it's my guess that LoL (or HoN, or Dota2, or something) would have replaced BW eventually. At some point, people who were 8 when bw came out, 15 when it was in it's prime, become 25-30 year olds with jobs and things to do and stop being fans. And then the next generation fills the space-and with the advent of the Moba market, going to pc bangs after school becomes a much more teamwork with friends rather than 1v1 experience. If you had friends in gold while you were in masters, would they want to 1v1 you? Wouldn't you rather play a new, cool, 5 man team game with better graphics and an easier time to learn the basics? Blizzard's BW crush was a good thing. How much more painful would it have been for you BW purists to watch the game die slowly over a year, or two, or three, as LoL grows in popularity? One year MBC/Oz/FOX are gone... STX the next... Stars the year after that.... TBLS retires and you get players like Rain, Soulkey, and Bogus to take the elite throne... Then one day Samsung disbands.... after that 8th/Green Wings... At least, with Blizzard Crush, you get to see the BW scene revive itself and grow into a stable but small section of esports. At some point the same thing will happen with sc2, and LoL, and so on-they join shooters and fighters and games like wc3 with pocket scenes instead of full outfits. The only difference is BW is growing into its pocket right now instead of shrinking steadily.
Asking me for source about Blizz patching SC2 for scrubs clearly means you haven't been following your own patching/scene ..
People need to learn about their game's history but anyways, you schmucks won't be having your precious SC2 scene after 2 years or maybe less with the way things are going for you. You didn't even need a fucking scandal for Corporations to back out from your game and the way Blizz is heading, you'll become one of those CoD fanboys who retaliate upon a simple attack on your game. Enjoy your 'have been scene while it lasts'.
Fanboys can't even handle off-season pressure.
User was warned for this post
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On September 03 2013 14:59 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 14:32 GTPGlitch wrote:On September 02 2013 20:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 16:36 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
[quote]
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing. So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity? The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.) I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.) We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. fur Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor. Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream?? Let's address all the things wrong with this post! This might be a shocker - but sc2 has had only three years 'on it's belt'. You can cry about it being built on the ruin of broodwar because aldskfjksldjfklsfjkkkkk bw semen, but the interactions between units and the tricks of the trade developed over the course of many years of games being played for hours a day between professional players that do nothing but play this exact game. Then: "they are patching for gold scrubs". 1) Source pls. 2) Apparently patching for gold scrubs still leads to a less than 60% winrate in any matchup, which is awful(?) Sure sc2 might not be growing any further. BW is coming back slightly because of the forced shrink. Even if BW hadn't been forcibly retired, it's my guess that LoL (or HoN, or Dota2, or something) would have replaced BW eventually. At some point, people who were 8 when bw came out, 15 when it was in it's prime, become 25-30 year olds with jobs and things to do and stop being fans. And then the next generation fills the space-and with the advent of the Moba market, going to pc bangs after school becomes a much more teamwork with friends rather than 1v1 experience. If you had friends in gold while you were in masters, would they want to 1v1 you? Wouldn't you rather play a new, cool, 5 man team game with better graphics and an easier time to learn the basics? Blizzard's BW crush was a good thing. How much more painful would it have been for you BW purists to watch the game die slowly over a year, or two, or three, as LoL grows in popularity? One year MBC/Oz/FOX are gone... STX the next... Stars the year after that.... TBLS retires and you get players like Rain, Soulkey, and Bogus to take the elite throne... Then one day Samsung disbands.... after that 8th/Green Wings... At least, with Blizzard Crush, you get to see the BW scene revive itself and grow into a stable but small section of esports. At some point the same thing will happen with sc2, and LoL, and so on-they join shooters and fighters and games like wc3 with pocket scenes instead of full outfits. The only difference is BW is growing into its pocket right now instead of shrinking steadily. Asking me for source about Blizz patching SC2 for scrubs clearly means you haven't been following your own patching/scene .. People need to learn about their game's history but anyways, you schmucks won't be having your precious SC2 scene after 2 years or maybe less with the way things are going for you. You didn't even need a fucking scandal for Corporations to back out from your game and the way Blizz is heading, you'll become one of those CoD fanboys who retaliate upon a simple attack on your game. Enjoy your 'have been scene while it lasts'. Fanboys can't even handle off-season pressure.
I may actually agree with you, but the way you're arguing is incredibly fucking frustrating. I can't even read your entire post without feeling shitty my self, thats how much your attitude leaks on to others when you're like that.
Too much doom saying in SC2 scene, needs more people actually doing things.
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China6325 Posts
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
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On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring.
Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
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On September 03 2013 12:34 Ureth_RA wrote:I'm afraid of even trying LoL becsuse I might end up liking it more than sc2 which just can't happen 
I've tried LoL. It's a good game but I keep coming back for sc2 and I don't know why.
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On September 03 2013 15:46 SamirDuran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 12:34 Ureth_RA wrote:I'm afraid of even trying LoL becsuse I might end up liking it more than sc2 which just can't happen I've tried LoL. It's a good game but I keep coming back for sc2 and I don't know why.
Same here. Tried lol dots dota2, but casual game after all, scii is the only love.
Go try it man, if you really like it, you should play it.
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United States33014 Posts
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On September 03 2013 15:44 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring. Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.)
Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team...
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On September 02 2013 23:01 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 22:39 Shikyo wrote:On September 02 2013 22:26 Boonbag wrote:On September 02 2013 22:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote:
You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel.
Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case. This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made. oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level. Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup. Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically. With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends.
very true indeed...
to be fare, i think blizz is doing their best... its just it isn't enough or simply incompentent (haha!).
when can we see a 2v2 SC2 just like in BW Proleague before?
so we can see TEAM plays....
@WAXANGEL
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 03 2013 21:36 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 23:01 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 22:39 Shikyo wrote:On September 02 2013 22:26 Boonbag wrote:On September 02 2013 22:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote:
You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel.
Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case. This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made. oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level. Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup. On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically. With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends. very true indeed... to be fare, i think blizz is doing their best... its just it isn't enough or simply incompentent (haha!). when can we see a 2v2 SC2 just like in BW Proleague before? so we can see TEAM plays.... @WAXANGEL WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can someone remind me the reason Proleague dropped 2v2 anyone? As for 2v2 SC2.... it would be worse than worst MOBA ever made.
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On September 03 2013 16:50 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 15:44 Thrillz wrote:On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring. Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away... Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.) Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team...
Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market.
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On September 03 2013 21:45 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 16:50 felisconcolori wrote:On September 03 2013 15:44 Thrillz wrote:On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring. Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away... Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.) Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team... Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market.
Exactly, which LoL being so popular in Korea it only makes sense for SKT and KT to focus on LoL. But that doesn't mean there isn't value in the SC2 scene for Korean companies with a larger international market. Companies like Acer(who is not Korean, but still invests in the scene) and Samsung are willing to put money out there. Its just a question of which teams can find these sponsorships and where the sponsors want the viewers. If there are more foreign viewers for GSTL, then they will focus there. If their sponsor is mostly based in Korea, then Proleague is likely the place.
It will take time to short this stuff out, but its not the crazy end of the days like people say it is.
Edit: I think shaftofpleasure is playing the role of all BW elitist rolled into one, with his own super agro take on the role. He is trying for some sort of TL award.
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Russian Federation40186 Posts
On September 03 2013 22:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 21:45 vthree wrote:On September 03 2013 16:50 felisconcolori wrote:On September 03 2013 15:44 Thrillz wrote:On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring. Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away... Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.) Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team... Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market. Exactly, which LoL being so popular in Korea it only makes sense for SKT and KT to focus on LoL. But that doesn't mean there isn't value in the SC2 scene for Korean companies with a larger international market. Companies like Acer(who is not Korean, but still invests in the scene) and Samsung are willing to put money out there. Its just a question of which teams can find these sponsorships and where the sponsors want the viewers. If there are more foreign viewers for GSTL, then they will focus there. If their sponsor is mostly based in Korea, then Proleague is likely the place. It will take time to short this stuff out, but its not the crazy end of the days like people say it is. Edit: I think shaftofpleasure is playing the role of all BW elitist rolled into one, with his own super agro take on the role. He is trying for some sort of TL award.
So TL staff gives away the TL award for the most annoying naysayer?
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On September 03 2013 22:06 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 22:01 Plansix wrote:On September 03 2013 21:45 vthree wrote:On September 03 2013 16:50 felisconcolori wrote:On September 03 2013 15:44 Thrillz wrote:On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring. Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away... Dude. They're effing Samsung. If the company steps up (and that's a big if, I'll grant you) they could buy all the teams - the financials for Samsung and all the assorted companies they own is huge. (Maybe if they wind up having to pay Apple for some bogus patents they could feel a pinch.) Lemme revise the above - if Samsung decided to step up and sponsor a huge increase in Samsung Khan's operating budget. Samsung Khan probably themselves aren't super flush with cash, but if the suits in Samsung love the team... Yup, and Samsung is one company which has a big international market. Companies like SKT, KT, etc pretty much care about the domestic market. Exactly, which LoL being so popular in Korea it only makes sense for SKT and KT to focus on LoL. But that doesn't mean there isn't value in the SC2 scene for Korean companies with a larger international market. Companies like Acer(who is not Korean, but still invests in the scene) and Samsung are willing to put money out there. Its just a question of which teams can find these sponsorships and where the sponsors want the viewers. If there are more foreign viewers for GSTL, then they will focus there. If their sponsor is mostly based in Korea, then Proleague is likely the place. It will take time to short this stuff out, but its not the crazy end of the days like people say it is. Edit: I think shaftofpleasure is playing the role of all BW elitist rolled into one, with his own super agro take on the role. He is trying for some sort of TL award. So TL staff gives away the TL award for the most annoying naysayer?
TL+ has the shitpost hall of fame, but that is a community effort to preserve the finest TL has to offer. It won't take the lead, which will be held by the shit post of shit posts for some time, but it could get an honorable mention. But there should be a Most Illogical Dooms Day Prophet TL award. I feel the field would be ripe with strong contenders.
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On September 03 2013 15:44 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring. Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
$26.2 BILLION profit FY2012, $470B in assets EOY 2012. 2013 has been an amazing year for the company as well- they're poised to do literally whatever they want, as they eat more and more mobile market share and Apple becomes passe. Once they finish adding graphene into battery technology to sell to car manufacturers (which they are currently doing), the company is poised to literally throw money at whatever they want.
A gaming sponsorship program program would be less than pennies to a company both of their market capitalization and growth rate- however, generating buzz in the 18-35 year old crowd is golden. Samsung has always been one of the better companies as far as physical hardware is concerned (their TV's, monitors, and phones at least), and now all they need to do is get that Google/2002Apple image with the young crowd. The Galaxy tablets and S3/S4 phone are doing just that, and anything they can do to become the "hip tech company" they will. eSports is a very, very cheap investment for a company with $270+B in revenue annually.
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On September 03 2013 14:36 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically. Cheap? You mean, probably the most pirated game in history? Blizzard needs to make money somehow... has anyone looked at the credits of HoTS lately? They go on forever...
Yeah, because all those people who pirated BW clearly ended up purchasing HotS, right? Oh wait, nope. That's not what happened. I'm not sure how many examples it's going to take before people realize that the people who pirate games en masse are not people who would otherwise purchase the game, particularly when the piracy occurs in countries like Korea or China (Wc3/DotA) wherein purchasing expensive games + PCs is quite rare and the LAN model thrives.
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On September 03 2013 15:44 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 15:37 digmouse wrote:
Samsung might also purchase the entire MVP team including their SC2 squad. Also Stork definitely not retiring. Samsung doesn't have THAT much free money to throw away...
Samsung could literally buy the entire eSports scene for every game without feeling it. We're talking about one of the most powerful and prosperous tech companies in the world, here.
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On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Fucking spot on, people play games because they are fun. And that's the most important thing.
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