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United Kingdom12021 Posts
On September 02 2013 21:14 Arceus wrote:
in other news, EffOrt, sKyHigh, Shine, Fantasy, BaBy enter free-agent, negotiation starts Sept 3
No way, Fantasy can't leave SKT. No way. No way. T_T_T_T_T_T
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On September 02 2013 21:14 Arceus wrote:
in other news, EffOrt, sKyHigh, Shine, Fantasy, BaBy enter free-agent, negotiation starts Sept 3
Come on...?! WTF??
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Not TY/baby too 
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On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote:
You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel.
Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
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On September 02 2013 22:24 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote:
You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel.
Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case. This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made.
oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
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On September 02 2013 22:26 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 22:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote:
You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel.
Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case. This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made. oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty
Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level.
Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
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On September 02 2013 15:18 Shikyo wrote:
Not all that surprising to be honest. It was very interesting in the beginning but the metagame has been very stagnant. Every time I watch the game I feel like I know what's going to happen and nothing surprising happens. It's been rather dull. Most of my friends who used to enjoy watching the game have also stopped watching it. I think it really is a shame but I don't think that Blizzard has had the right direction with the game right from the getgo so this was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the increasing viewer numbers are a bit misleading, I just believe that eSports in general are becoming more popular. For instance, the growth of viewer amounts for something like EVO is significantly higher than that of SC2 tournaments. I wonder if they regret not just re-skinning SCBW. Legacy of the Void might hold some hope but HotS was a gigantic disappointment and I don't expect anything different from Void.
Team-based eSports seem to be the name of the game these days so it's abit surprising how SC2 has not taken the team formats 2v2 - 4v4 seriously at all. I believe that at a highly refined level those formats could prove to be much more entertaining as long as one balances the game for them.
and that void represents all the drama of sc2...
sc2 drama is more fun than watching the game...
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On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
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On September 02 2013 22:39 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 22:26 Boonbag wrote:On September 02 2013 22:24 Shikyo wrote:On September 02 2013 21:07 Boonbag wrote:
You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel.
Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case. This is slightly inaccurate. It's just the newer C&Cs that are awful. Some of the older ones were incredible, some of the best RTS's ever made. oh well i always thought they were kinda shitty Really? I loved C&C, Red Alert and Red Alert 2 :/ I guess people do have different tastes but I find it difficult to objectively say those games are bad even though they aren't SCBW level. Though well, their design direction still might not have been the best for competitive gaming
those games weren't made for e-sports .. it's like Skyrim, or Civ or Sims or Surgeon Simulator or Total War .. fun games for the sake of having fun. SC2 was made solely for a competitive scene. Most SC2 fans tends to forget that Blizzard is poor in balancing games without removing the fun in them. Maps were the ones that truly innovated the BW scene. If People kept on playing LT Vanilla, Terran would've roflstomp the competition like it did back then. Warcraft III was so balanced that it became a rock-paper-scissor game with Heroes becoming the wildcard of every matchup.
On September 02 2013 22:40 Gravesong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. Wow. This is really well put, and I haven't really thought of it from this perspective. BW became popular because it was a cheap game and cheap entertainment in PC bangs, which led to a lot of people playing and the scene growing organically.
With a single copy of BW, 4 players can play on b.net with them playing in different servers and if talking about LAN, it non-unique serial numbers won't hinder you from playing multiplayer with 7 friends.
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On September 02 2013 22:14 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 21:14 Arceus wrote:
in other news, EffOrt, sKyHigh, Shine, Fantasy, BaBy enter free-agent, negotiation starts Sept 3 No way, Fantasy can't leave SKT. No way. No way. T_T_T_T_T_T
Dont worry dudes. They will get to re-negotiate with their respective original team first (which usually ends in re-signing)
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Nice with the whole move to the "superior" SC2.
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Also S2 and Brown are missing....
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I think you folks need to understand that a scene doesn't survive on teams and sponsors, they survive on viewers, and while big events still bring a decent number, SC2 streams are not watched anymore. The interest for the game is amazingly low. Blizzard had 3 years to come up with a more dynamic and interesting game than that "maxed armies in 12 blizzard minutes, and deathball push", and partially helped by the Blizzdrones, they did not do anything. After HoTS, I only wish for Starcraft 2 to die, which is what's happening anyway. They had the best opportunity to kept me and others going in the long term, but they lost it.
Sad though, because the SC2 community is way better than the LoL community which is autism and down syndrome at its best. Thing is, I'm enjoying LoL more than I've ever enjoyed SC2, and bear in mind that I'm a huge RTS fan and i love hard games.
Here's to hoping BW come back after the dust settles. This game still has true passion going for it, even if the whole big forces of E-sports (Kespa and Blizzard, at the time) abandonned it (although Kespa got pretty much paid to leave it).
User was temp banned for this post.
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in sc2 you can have similar games but in aoe2 you can't have :D
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On September 02 2013 20:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 16:36 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing. So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity? The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.) I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.) We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor. Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport. It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
So, your argument boils down to that. If it doesn't work in Korea, it can never ever work anywhere else ever. BW became huge in Korea, but was never mainstream anywhere else. Or even well known anywhere else. I'm guessing eSports didn't exist anywhere until BW came out swinging in Korea either?
Okay then. That's an argument that I'm not going to get involved in, because I just don't see either of us coming to anything remotely like a middle ground, nor do I think you're looking for one. In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to learn to love MOBAs.
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On September 03 2013 11:13 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 20:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 16:36 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing. So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity? The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.) I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.) We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor. Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport. It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream?? So, your argument boils down to that. If it doesn't work in Korea, it can never ever work anywhere else ever. BW became huge in Korea, but was never mainstream anywhere else. Or even well known anywhere else. I'm guessing eSports didn't exist anywhere until BW came out swinging in Korea either? Okay then. That's an argument that I'm not going to get involved in, because I just don't see either of us coming to anything remotely like a middle ground, nor do I think you're looking for one. In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to learn to love MOBAs.
You are the entire point.
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On September 02 2013 21:14 Arceus wrote:
in other news, EffOrt, sKyHigh, Shine, Fantasy, BaBy enter free-agent, negotiation starts Sept 3
They better resign fantasy!!!
look like bisu retiring =(
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I'm afraid of even trying LoL becsuse I might end up liking it more than sc2 which just can't happen
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On September 03 2013 12:26 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 11:13 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 20:53 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 16:36 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
[quote]
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing. So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity? The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.) I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.) We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter. Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor. Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport. It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream?? So, your argument boils down to that. If it doesn't work in Korea, it can never ever work anywhere else ever. BW became huge in Korea, but was never mainstream anywhere else. Or even well known anywhere else. I'm guessing eSports didn't exist anywhere until BW came out swinging in Korea either? Okay then. That's an argument that I'm not going to get involved in, because I just don't see either of us coming to anything remotely like a middle ground, nor do I think you're looking for one. In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to learn to love MOBAs. You are the entire point.
And you, apparently, need to change your country to Romania.
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Does this mean that Stork NOT retiring is confirmed as correct?
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