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WC3 didn't have the large number of players, tournaments, and prize pools that SC2 will continue to have, and yet WC3 was great to follow for almost a decade. If you like following SC2, you have nothing to be worried about.
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On September 02 2013 13:28 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 12:54 Pandain wrote:On September 02 2013 11:28 Charlie.Sheen wrote:On September 02 2013 09:55 Fionn wrote:On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote:
So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league.
And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise.
It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW. Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore. Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2. Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke. Why would you think at all the Korean sc2 scene is even close to dying? All players going to switch to LoL, retire? Old players go to army, new players go to LoL. No reinforcements for sc2. As simple as that.
Is it happening?
Why don't we see b teamers saying "LoL time lets go!" Maybe they want to be good at this game.
So many BW complaints have been killed and are evaporating. There is no reachable skill ceiling, no KesPa domination, no real imbalances and fuck it man I love watching Starcraft so it being inherently flawed is wrong too.
Games like LoL can come and go but a game like Starcraft 1 or 2 never dies.
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On September 02 2013 13:41 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 12:31 Plansix wrote:On September 02 2013 12:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea? Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh. 3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW. Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation. On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk. Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW. The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain. Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all. The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did. So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea? They started it. No doubt about it.
Whoa! How the hell can you post when you are from North Korea???
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On September 02 2013 13:47 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:41 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 12:31 Plansix wrote:On September 02 2013 12:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea? Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh. 3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW. Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation. On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk. Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW. The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain. Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all. The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did. So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea? They started it. No doubt about it. Whoa! How the hell can you post when you are from North Korea???
I'm in a bunker of sorts near DMZ .. Really good wifi Connection :D
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On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
+ Show Spoiler +
Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game.
Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1.
A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
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What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
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On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz.
SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works 
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I hope SC2 can continue to thrive in the non-Korean scene. I think people were just too obsessed about Starcraft = Korea that they forgot just how BW became so big in Korea - because people loved playing it! Somehow, SC2 was forced into the Korean e-sports scene so much so that I feel people (and the progamers) didn't have enough time to assess whether they actually loved the game or not. It was just a continuation (or a "restart" button) for the BW scene.
I think LoL or some other similar game would have ultimately replaced BW as the most-watched game, true enough, but BW would always have a large, but niche following, like a more popular Sudden Attack.
Anyway as to SC2, it's a well-made game but it was made too much as an e-sports and not enough as a fun game. Strangely enough, I think it's fun enough to play but not nearly as fun to watch.
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On September 02 2013 12:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 12:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea? Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh. 3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW. Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation. On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk. Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW. The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain. Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all. The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did. So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
Korea is to Esports as NYC is to Banking
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On September 02 2013 14:15 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works
I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design.
At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game.
The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
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On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport.
I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve.
A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match.
The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
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On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve.
So a game is designed with "esport" in mind....
needs time to evolve to "esport"....
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On September 02 2013 14:26 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:15 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design. At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game. The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free.
If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS.
And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website.
On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
On September 02 2013 14:33 Qwyn wrote:
Call me selfish, but I actually do sort of hope that the game collapses in on and itself and begins to fail. Perhaps then Blizzard really will consider drastic, overarching changes for LOTV.
Ofc the big drawback to this is a smack in the face to players, but if we get an amazing overhaul then I would say it is all worth it.
This game is already so good and as fun to watch as BW to me at the moment, it doesn't need a huge overhaul instead some small changes.
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Call me selfish, but I actually do sort of hope that the game collapses in on and itself and begins to fail. Perhaps then Blizzard really will consider drastic, overarching changes for LOTV.
Ofc the big drawback to this is a smack in the face to players, but if we get an amazing overhaul then I would say it is all worth it.
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On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
Yes. Because, you know, adding features on in the process because you know it will be used that way regardless of what you do should dictate how it will be forever and ever. Wait, are you my ex-wife?
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On September 02 2013 14:33 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:26 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:15 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design. At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game. The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free. If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS. And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website. Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport".... It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing.
The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP.
Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities.
Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing.
SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant.
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On September 02 2013 14:35 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport".... Yes. Because, you know, adding features on in the process because you know it will be used that way regardless of what you do should dictate how it will be forever and ever. Wait, are you my ex-wife?
Well, apparently the Pandain guy doesn't think so.
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On September 02 2013 14:38 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:33 Pandain wrote:On September 02 2013 14:26 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:15 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design. At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game. The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free. If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS. And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website. On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport".... It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing. The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP. Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities. Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing. SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant.
So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg.
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On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport"....
He is saying what I was saying but he worded it bad.
Think about Basketball, do you think that guy made the sport thinking "Oh let me make this pro sport about putting a ball in a hoop?
No the guy made a game he thought would be fun, then it exploded everywhere, then it became a Sport.
Just like in Korea with BW, everyone and there fucking mother had BW installed everyone played it so naturally people started saying.... Well... Whos the best BW player? Bam.. Esports.
Point is. You need people to actually play the game and key word Enjoy the game to have a pro-scene.
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On September 02 2013 14:44 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport".... He is saying what I was saying but he worded it bad. Think about Basketball, do you think that guy made the sport thinking "Oh let me make this pro sport about putting a ball in a hoop? No the guy made a game he thought would be fun, then it exploded everywhere, then it became a Sport. Just like in Korea with BW, everyone and there fucking mother had BW installed everyone played it so naturally people started saying.... Well... Whos the best BW player? Bam.. Esports.
No I somewhat disagree with you. I think right now it's already at a really good place and I agree with you in that with time it can only get better.
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EPT
