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On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote:
So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league.
And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise.
It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW.
i guess we are 
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On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
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On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread.
I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
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On September 02 2013 09:55 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote:
So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league.
And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise.
It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW. Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore. Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2.
Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke.
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On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW.
The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
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Well if this is all about cataclysm so far then it's not that as bad as it sounds lke in the first place.
Also cut those bw vs sc2 crap please. Sc as a whole is on the decline since before Kespa switch. They have to swallow their pride and switch because be was failing at that time too. Now it just that the Moab genre attracts more gamers, particularly casual gamer so rts as a whole is on the decline. Western scene still has a good number too so not all is dOom and gloom.
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On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea? Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh.
3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW.
Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?
Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation.
On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk. Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW. The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain.
Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all.
The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
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On September 02 2013 12:21 Veldril wrote:
Well if this is all about cataclysm so far then it's not that as bad as it sounds lke in the first place.
Also cut those bw vs sc2 crap please. Sc as a whole is on the decline since before Kespa switch. They have to swallow their pride and switch because be was failing at that time too. Now it just that the Moab genre attracts more gamers, particularly casual gamer so rts as a whole is on the decline. Western scene still has a good number too so not all is dOom and gloom.
there is no sc as a whole.
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On September 02 2013 12:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea? Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh. 3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW. Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation. Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk. Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW. The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain. Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all. The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
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United States23455 Posts
To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened.
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On September 02 2013 12:33 Fionn wrote:
To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened.
At least there wouldn't have been something stupid like a hybrid proleague (though the image of BW + LoL is hilarious) and BW might have been sent off better.
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On September 02 2013 12:49 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 12:33 Fionn wrote:
To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened. At least there wouldn't have been something stupid like a hybrid proleague (though the image of BW + LoL is hilarious) and BW might have been sent off better.
I kinda doubt that. I get the feeling they would have rode it for as long as they could and then taken BW out back, like a loyal draft horse and put it down. They might have said something nice on the way back.
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On September 02 2013 08:44 felisconcolori wrote:
TL; dr - People are leaving because the game's hard, the scene's hard, and life is hard. Wear a helmet.
Doubt it.
Broodwar was harder, and those same people played that. The difference is they grew up wanting to play BW, loving BW, and being pro was a logical progression from it. Meanwhile, most pro korean SC2 players arrived from BW because there was no other option for their career - in it for the money, not because of the game itself.
Seeing a lot of people retire when they stop caring is to be expected.
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On September 02 2013 11:28 Charlie.Sheen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 09:55 Fionn wrote:On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote:
So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league.
And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise.
It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW. Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore. Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2. Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke.
Why would you think at all the Korean sc2 scene is even close to dying? All players going to switch to LoL, retire?
The scene isn't even really in trouble, we have at least two more years from Korean tv and in my eyes the next 20.
On September 02 2013 12:54 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 08:44 felisconcolori wrote:
TL; dr - People are leaving because the game's hard, the scene's hard, and life is hard. Wear a helmet. Doubt it. Broodwar was harder, and those same people played that. The difference is they grew up wanting to play BW, loving BW, and being pro was a logical progression from it. Meanwhile, most pro korean SC2 players arrived from BW because there was no other option for their career - in it for the money, not because of the game itself. Seeing a lot of people retire when they stop caring is to be expected.
Not even many are retiring because they don't like it. One is, okay not everyone will like Starcraft II.
Some retire because they can't make the cut.
Your over exaggerating BW, remember most are B-teamers, they're still young and can go to military service. Maybe they're staying because they like the game?
No, that's crazy!
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On September 02 2013 12:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 12:49 Antisocialmunky wrote:On September 02 2013 12:33 Fionn wrote:
To be fair, it didn't matter if SC2 happened or if the KeSPA teams switched. League was still going to take over Korea, Brood War or no Brood War.
Times change. Even if there was never a Starcraft 2 and Brood War had just been left alone, League of Legends would have still taken over the same way. It might have not been so fast, seeing as it really had no competition in terms of fan base when Brood War died off and SC2 was struggling, but it would have still happened. At least there wouldn't have been something stupid like a hybrid proleague (though the image of BW + LoL is hilarious) and BW might have been sent off better. I kinda doubt that. I get the feeling they would have rode it for as long as they could and then taken BW out back, like a loyal draft horse and put it down. They might have said something nice on the way back.
That's almost better, there would have been finality. Instead SCII has basically erased a lot of BW's legacy because KESPA treated it like a continuation and all the players switched. This phenomenon is pretty evident by the fact that many of the people who switched from BW don't feel its right for them to play with their best race so they stick with their BW race and show substandard games (as in, they could play another race more comfortably and show better results). :\
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk.
Blizzard's old patching method consisted of releasing several patches, last one looking like a laundry list. They pretty much changed every unit in one patch then afterwards, they left the game be. As mentioned, the players and the organizers balanced the game around maps etc... Also, honestly, even though the SCII AI makes the game easier(smart cast, MBS etc...) and that can be a welcome addition, I find the BW AI superior in some ways and quite bad in others lol. It's true that units won't push others apart if they want to move somewhere but the AI makes it possible to do things like muta stacking, stop lurkers, moving shot, etc... it's those kind of tricks that give the game even more dimensions. I have no doubt that there aren't many new holes since 1) everytime something was found, Blizzard patched it right away 2) the game has been played a lot by pros and such. Someone would've found something by now. The ability to micro each unit for each race to get better usage and being a mechanically stronger player than your opponent are what makes BW a unique and fun game. Will leave the BW vs SCII discussion to another thread 
On September 02 2013 11:28 Charlie.Sheen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 09:55 Fionn wrote:On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote:
So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league.
And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise.
It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
---
As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW. Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore. Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2. Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke.
I wouldn't say it's a joke but without Korean SCII pro-scene, the level of the game is for lack of another word, quite bad at times lol.
On September 02 2013 12:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea? Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh. 3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW. Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation. Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk. Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW. The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain. Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all. The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did.
good point. I don't think we'll be seeing any big companies sponsoring teams and such like we saw for BW. Korea seems to be the exception and they keep passing laws for the benefit of esports in the country. It's the reason that there is no doubt that Korea is the mecca of esports.
On September 02 2013 12:54 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 08:44 felisconcolori wrote:
TL; dr - People are leaving because the game's hard, the scene's hard, and life is hard. Wear a helmet. Doubt it. Broodwar was harder, and those same people played that. The difference is they grew up wanting to play BW, loving BW, and being pro was a logical progression from it. Meanwhile, most pro korean SC2 players arrived from BW because there was no other option for their career - in it for the money, not because of the game itself. Seeing a lot of people retire when they stop caring is to be expected.
this. My concern with the switch is for the players that entered the esports scene with a passion for BW then they felt forced to switch to SCII or end their career. Can't do much about it unfortunately. Maybe the SOSPA scene will become big enough to allow these players to be able to play BW like in the past.
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Uh hopefully this isn't infringement.
This is what the journalist is thinking/said NOT ME
Proleague is now more geared towards LoL than SC2, thus, less money for SC2 progamers and they'll reconsider a career in SC2.
Thus, it's natural to think that there may be more retirements this month.
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On September 02 2013 12:54 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 11:28 Charlie.Sheen wrote:On September 02 2013 09:55 Fionn wrote:On September 02 2013 09:11 Caladan wrote:
So these news are all but surprising.
Why?
Well, SCBW proteams with big roosters, A and b teams, multiple coaches etc. left Broodwar, not quite as big as it used to be, but still with a pretty big fanbase, and then came to SC2. But what did they find in SC2? Empty audiences, almost zero korean interest. SC2 was too expensive (and maybe too one sided gameplay-wise) and did never become popular in Korea.
So you have huge Kespa teams - but almost none interest in Korea, audience would consist of like 15 people, where it was 100s in Broodwar + television.
It's no surprise this could not continue.
Kespa and esF teams will either merge or one of the organizations will die. There will only be one team league.
And old BW pros, which were paid large sums in SCBW, but now have low income but an even higher comptetion will retire.
But really, it's no surprise.
It's not too bad though. We still have a pretty good European/international scene.
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As a result I want to point out that MANY had seen this come, even in BETA, that SC2 will be dead in 2-3 years, even before all expansions are out, just because of stupid game design flaws. You called us BW nostalgics. But eventually we were right. It's a shame for the successor of such a long living game like BW. Even if all the Korean teams disband and there is no more Proleague, SC2 won't die. SC2 is insanely more popular in Europe/North America than Brood War ever was. All this means is that Korea won't be the mecca for Starcraft e-sports anymore. Korea does not equal the life or death of SC2. Without Koreans, SC2 pro-scene will be a joke. Why would you think at all the Korean sc2 scene is even close to dying? All players going to switch to LoL, retire?
Old players go to army, new players go to LoL. No reinforcements for sc2. As simple as that.
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On September 02 2013 12:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 12:22 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throughout the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. On September 02 2013 10:58 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Games are being showed on television. Players are being treated like celebrities. Big, Major, Non-Gaming Corporations sponsor leagues and players. Where the fuck are you going to find these outside Korea? Sweden? Possibly other parts of Europe? It's only been 3 years. There's still another expansion. The BroodWar majesty wasn't built in a day. Or even a year. Or even 5 years. The entire concept of eSports is still growing in the world, as more and more people that grew up with games get older. The end is not nigh. 3 years?? Gaming has been going on since the increased use of Internet Service Worldwide. From CS to Dota 1 to WoW. Also, I am not only talking about Starcraft. I am talking about Gaming in General. Korea has sponsored Racing Games, FPS Games and Fighting Games too .. Again .. WHERE THE FUCK are you going to see this happening in another country?Show me a regularly televised Esport from Sweden that is sponosred by a Major, Non-Gaming Corporation. On September 02 2013 11:30 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. The Core concepts of Brood War were similarly designed, planned, and implemented in their entirety at launch, with only a few patches. I don't see the differences you're talking about, unless you expected SC2 to be implemented using the same bugged, hacked engine that StarCraft was built on. Is it different? Yes. Does that mean you can't utilize the same programming holes and bugged interactions? Yep. Are there new ones? We'll find out. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. I will note that there is not another RTS currently released that is anywhere near SC2. The entire genre has shrunk. Yeah those were not the core concepts. SC2 haven't introduced any new concepts beside the ones discovered in BW. The shrinking of the genre part is completely extraneous to the subject we are trying to pertain. Clearly this guy didn't play BW enough .. or Didn't even play BW at all. The developers didn't Balance BW, the gamers and the organizers did. So what you are saying is Esports begins and ends I Korea?
They started it. No doubt about it.
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EPT
