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On September 02 2013 14:44 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:38 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:33 Pandain wrote:On September 02 2013 14:26 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:15 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works  I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design. At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game. The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free. If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS. And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website. On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport".... It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing. The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP. Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities. Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing. SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant. So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg.
Well once again your going off of random bullshit that is not really what happens in the MU, this happened the second you said "Mech attempts" as one of you reasons. Nice try, just because theres some half assed random opening doesnt change that the MU has been about "Oh I killed him in 15 min I win" or I didnt and I die, and the fact that you still go MMM every damn game.
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On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea.
Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_Games
Adn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
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On September 02 2013 14:50 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:44 Pandain wrote:On September 02 2013 14:38 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:33 Pandain wrote:On September 02 2013 14:26 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:15 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design. At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game. The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free. If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS. And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website. On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:
[quote]
So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released?
People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses.
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport".... It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing. The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP. Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities. Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing. SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant. So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg. Well once again your going off of random bullshit that is not really what happens in the MU, this happened the second you said "Mech attempts" as one of you reasons. Nice try, just because theres some half assed random opening doesnt change that the MU has been about "Oh I killed him in 15 min I win" or I didnt and I die, and the fact that you still go MMM every damn game.
Alright I don't think I actually need to adress this any further, I'll be going to sleep.
Meanwhile I encourage everyone to tune into Taejas stream who has been playing some awesome and also just now a hilarious game.
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On September 02 2013 15:03 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:50 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:44 Pandain wrote:On September 02 2013 14:38 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:33 Pandain wrote:On September 02 2013 14:26 XXXSmOke wrote:On September 02 2013 14:15 saddaromma wrote:On September 02 2013 13:54 XXXSmOke wrote:
What this all comes down to is the casual player. I don't think we can stress this enough and why Sc2 is in the position it is in.
fuck the pro scene, what this game really comes down to is do you enjoy it or not?
This is the first RTS where ive truly seen an overwhelming amount of people from day 1 just bitch and bitch(and for good reason) about how horribly boring the game is.
The casual players are the true cataclysm of sc2.
Millions and Millions of people are viewing the fuck out of pro scene moba??
Why you ask?
Because they actually enjoy the game they play, the pro league is a nice plus to playing the game.
I wish I could say this about Sc2 but we obviously cant, theres hundreds of people here who cant even pull up the urge to play 1 game of sc2.
And then you get all these people that go "Oh Jeez why is everyone so negative! I dont get it" Its not to hard to figure out.
I would trade every moment of watching sc2 for an actual game that I enjoyed in a heartbeat.
After all in anything competitive it always starts with a fun casual game that attracts many people to the sport THEN it becomes competitive.... Not "We design this game to be a sport"
How do you guys think basketball got to a professional level? Do you think some random guy said "hmmm let me make a sport that will have professional athletes that get paid to play? No the guy fucking thought it would be cool to put a ball through a hoop.
Another example would be crossfit. What started out as a popular workout method for casual people to get slightly competitive with.. is now becoming a a major force all around the world with a competitive scene that is growing massively.
TL:DR Let the sport create itself like BW did in the early days, worry about the casuals and that people ENJOY it. dont make a game that is a sport or you will fail miserably like blizz. SC2 mechanics are too unforgiving and the fact that its not f2p doesn't help casuals either. Blizzard needs to do something or starcraft franchise will die, which I think they don't care about. They'll just buy LoL/Minecraft or whatever is popular and kill it too. Thats how evil money works I dont mind unforgiving mechanics as much as I hate things like one-dimensional MU's for 3 years straight, terrible custom game creation, and broken game design. At the same time F2P is all the shits right now, but that will die off soon enough once it becomes oversaturated and the competition shifts back to the quality of a pay to play game. The key thing here still is ENJOYING the game, I would of gladly paid $20-$60 for LoL/Minecraft, it just happened that they were free. These games arent fun to play because they are free.. They are fun to play and happen to fall in to a business model that is free. If you think Starcraft is stagnant in strategy, especially right now and even more so over the course of three years, than you have made one of the most incorrect statements possible. Go watch WoL beta games, than MC hey day games, than Stephano days, than BL investor days, than early HotS and current HotS. And most people here enjoy the game, your an anomaly if you don't. Especially on this website. On September 02 2013 14:32 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination.
I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. I also enjoyed WarCraft (all of them), vanilla SC, SW:Galactic Battlegrounds, Age of Empires (I & II, III was kindof meh), Command & Conquer, Real War, etc. The reason I talk about rose tinted glasses is that people compare apples to oranges with the notion that oranges just suck, period. They're expecting SC2 to be someplace in 3 years that BW didn't reach for 5 - with the possible exception of the Professional Gamers League, that ran very early StarCraft competitions. The two games are different in execution and technology - and SC2 isn't finished evolving. BW wasn't created to be an eSport - that came later. SC2 had eSports in mind, but I think that still needs time to evolve. A random thought that occurred to me is also that there's no mystery in SC2, because of the more open pro community. When it becomes a quest to find a rare FPVOD of a pro player so you can find out what they're doing, it is a lot easier to be surprised and awed by sudden changes and revolutions of strategy when there is absolutely no warning. In SC2, odds are you may have seen it in a stream or heard it discussed by Day9, on Meta, or even State of the Game. There's a lack of sudden impact when suddenly something just works because it's been honed in secret, tested without any hint, and then blossoms on an unsuspecting victim in a match. The two games are different. I'm just advocating that people not declare the game dead and destined to fail without giving it time to evolve. So a game is designed with "esport" in mind.... needs time to evolve to "esport".... It doesn't need time to become an e-sport, it's already growing and developing. The 3 year one dimensional MU's was targeted towards TvP. Go find me a TvP from 2011 and one from 2013, youll see MAJOR similarities. Also, You cant Say "Look at Beta games" ofc there was diff strategy, nobody knew what the fuck they were doing. SC2 is very stagnant compared to the other RTS's we have had. Very stagnant. So again your limiting all your strategy statements to TvP, but than what about mech attempts in HoTs, adding hellbats, widow mine drops and reaper scouts, normalization of ghost Viking as a late game option and adding tempests as Protoss in the late game, ravens to soak up those shots and mothership core shenanigans; 1-1-1s and fake collusus, warp prism drops and all of that jazz? And I don't even know everything because I main Zerg. Well once again your going off of random bullshit that is not really what happens in the MU, this happened the second you said "Mech attempts" as one of you reasons. Nice try, just because theres some half assed random opening doesnt change that the MU has been about "Oh I killed him in 15 min I win" or I didnt and I die, and the fact that you still go MMM every damn game. Alright I don't think I actually need to adress this any further, I'll be going to sleep. Meanwhile I encourage everyone to tune into Taejas stream who has been playing some awesome and also just now a hilarious game.
Good night.
I see this a lot on the forums now and its pretty lame............
Oh going to sleep aka doding it.
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Not all that surprising to be honest. It was very interesting in the beginning but the metagame has been very stagnant. Every time I watch the game I feel like I know what's going to happen and nothing surprising happens. It's been rather dull. Most of my friends who used to enjoy watching the game have also stopped watching it. I think it really is a shame but I don't think that Blizzard has had the right direction with the game right from the getgo so this was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the increasing viewer numbers are a bit misleading, I just believe that eSports in general are becoming more popular. For instance, the growth of viewer amounts for something like EVO is significantly higher than that of SC2 tournaments. I wonder if they regret not just re-skinning SCBW. Legacy of the Void might hold some hope but HotS was a gigantic disappointment and I don't expect anything different from Void.
Team-based eSports seem to be the name of the game these days so it's abit surprising how SC2 has not taken the team formats 2v2 - 4v4 seriously at all. I believe that at a highly refined level those formats could prove to be much more entertaining as long as one balances the game for them.
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On September 02 2013 15:18 Shikyo wrote:
Not all that surprising to be honest. It was very interesting in the beginning but the metagame has been very stagnant. Every time I watch the game I feel like I know what's going to happen and nothing surprising happens. It's been rather dull. Most of my friends who used to enjoy watching the game have also stopped watching it. I think it really is a shame but I don't think that Blizzard has had the right direction with the game right from the getgo so this was pretty much inevitable. I also believe that the increasing viewer numbers are a bit misleading, I just believe that eSports in general are becoming more popular. For instance, the growth of viewer amounts for something like EVO is significantly higher than that of SC2 tournaments. I wonder if they regret not just re-skinning SCBW. Legacy of the Void might hold some hope but HotS was a gigantic disappointment and I don't expect anything different from Void.
Team-based eSports seem to be the name of the game these days so it's abit surprising how SC2 has not taken the team formats 2v2 - 4v4 seriously at all. I believe that at a highly refined level those formats could prove to be much more entertaining as long as one balances the game for them.
How would the observer be able to keep up with all the action when they sometimes can barely keep up with 1v1s?
Also, theres no way they can balance 1s and team games at an optimal level simultaneously.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for watching competitive 2s, but its just too much effort to make something like that feasible.
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Finally, SC2's poor design is starting to have some serious impact on the scene.
It's a pain to play, unforgiving, volatile and frustrating.
It's also boring to watch because you can tell who is going to win 10 minutes (or more...) before "gg" is typed, this after watching the same builds for the millionth time. And these are just pointers for the dozens of problems that plague the entire game.
Blizzard really needs to step up their staff choice, DB and DK had do idea that they were burdened with: creating the successor of the game that gave birth to e-sports. That's is why they delivered a badly designed game for competitive multi-player.
Colossus, roaches, healer-dropships, forcefields, marauders, infestors, warpgates, death-blobs and all the other stuff they added are fun to play through the campaign for sure. But giving overpowered units like it's candy will create an OP vs OP environment, the exact opposite of what a competitive game needs.
This problematic situation has been masked by the growing scene and by the very supportive community that is behind Starcraft. When those essential things are not enough to make a game into and solid esport one must be in denial to believe that SC2 is a beautiful and great game.
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On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing.
So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity?
The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.)
I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
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Actually I think proof that this is being overblown is that this actually wasn't anything big, and everyone now saying that the game sucks( would we really play or have this whole website for three years or have sick games that continually get better even than 2011 if it did?), is how none of it relates to this thread.
This wasn't a cataclysm rather than a sign that STX couldn't keep up with already existing financial troubles. It's not like they were dropped to make room for LoL. I also notice a lot of people posting to have been posting this shit for years.
If anything if its just quality of games Starcraft II will grow in the next three months.
All these rumors were busted, except KeSPa is bigger and Soul is in ESF now. W/e GSTL will still be sick and fruit land.
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On September 02 2013 16:40 Pandain wrote:
Actually I think proof that this is being overblown is that this actually wasn't anything big, and everyone now saying that the game sucks( would we really play or have this whole website for three years or have sick games that continually get better even than 2011 if it did?), is how none of it relates to this thread.
This wasn't a cataclysm rather than a sign that STX couldn't keep up with already existing financial troubles. It's not like they were dropped to make room for LoL. I also notice a lot of people posting to have been posting this shit for years.
If anything if its just quality of games Starcraft II will grow in the next three months.
All these rumors were busted, except KeSPa is bigger and Soul is in ESF now. W/e GSTL will still be sick and fruit land.
It's all about the lemon slices.
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China6325 Posts
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Well, a lot of people seem to have good ideas about where he MIGHT be going...
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On September 02 2013 16:13 kasumimi wrote:
Finally, SC2's poor design is starting to have some serious impact on the scene.
It's a pain to play, unforgiving, volatile and frustrating.
It's also boring to watch because you can tell who is going to win 10 minutes (or more...) before "gg" is typed, this after watching the same builds for the millionth time. And these are just pointers for the dozens of problems that plague the entire game.
Blizzard really needs to step up their staff choice, DB and DK had do idea that they were burdened with: creating the successor of the game that gave birth to e-sports. That's is why they delivered a badly designed game for competitive multi-player.
Colossus, roaches, healer-dropships, forcefields, marauders, infestors, warpgates, death-blobs and all the other stuff they added are fun to play through the campaign for sure. But giving overpowered units like it's candy will create an OP vs OP environment, the exact opposite of what a competitive game needs.
This problematic situation has been masked by the growing scene and by the very supportive community that is behind Starcraft. When those essential things are not enough to make a game into and solid esport one must be in denial to believe that SC2 is a beautiful and great game.
This reflects 100% my very same feelings with Sc2.
Fun at first, frustrating and repetitive in the long run. Same for playing or watching.
Full of stupidly op and badly designed units, stupidly high dps since beta.
It annoys me so much because SC is such an amazing universe and a very solid base for a good competitive game, but Blizz team fucked it up badly.
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On September 02 2013 16:40 Pandain wrote:
Actually I think proof that this is being overblown is that this actually wasn't anything big, and everyone now saying that the game sucks( would we really play or have this whole website for three years or have sick games that continually get better even than 2011 if it did?), is how none of it relates to this thread.
This wasn't a cataclysm rather than a sign that STX couldn't keep up with already existing financial troubles. It's not like they were dropped to make room for LoL. I also notice a lot of people posting to have been posting this shit for years.
If anything if its just quality of games Starcraft II will grow in the next three months.
All these rumors were busted, except KeSPa is bigger and Soul is in ESF now. W/e GSTL will still be sick and fruit land.
Well a few things are still going to happen, we aren't done yet, there should be a few more retirements for sure, and some teams are still in a bad state, but this is still not bad since the Korean playerbase is just inflated to an extreme degree. I mean seriously, go look at team rosters and consider exactly how many there are! And think about how many will never make an impact, and a lot of them know or suspect so as well, that's why they retire (amongst other things).
Anyway, these threads are strange in a way, since it really is mainly a small loud minority of people who whine about the game, and claim to have stopped watching, and that the game is dying. The 100k people watching WCS finals aren't posting here.
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I'm goona play in utter darkness with this playlist now! Should be fun!
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On September 02 2013 16:36 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:55 shaftofpleasure wrote:On September 02 2013 14:29 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 13:49 Arco wrote:On September 02 2013 11:26 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 11:11 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 11:05 felisconcolori wrote:On September 02 2013 09:24 Xiphos wrote:On September 02 2013 09:15 felisconcolori wrote:
Hold on there, Caladan. Let's give SC2 at least 10 years, like we did BroodWar, before drawing any conclusions that "we were right" about anything. The problem (or should I say, a blessing) with BW was that in term of gameplay, everything remained much mystery until 2007, 2007. The micro potential, unit interaction, management skills, macro, multitask abilities were slowly shuffled out. And that's many of the mystique from fan's standpoint that make people think "Wow, I wonder what new tactical platform will arise next?" In SC2, since all of those concepts were developed pre-emptively, well, the game have already reached its maturation stage. So, what you're saying is... Broodlord/Infestor at the end of WoL was something Blizzard knew, and had designed, and was fully realized throught the community before the game was released? People are still discovering new ways to use units, and Blizzard is still patching those units - BroodWar was done and finished before it ever took off in popularity. SC2 as a game is still evolving and growing, and has another expansion to come. I think really that's it's premature to judge the game a failure, and you're really rocking those rose tinted glasses. Those are not the CORE concept of an RTS but Micro, Unit interaction, managing economy, macro, multitasking are the the VITUAL crucial aspects of the genre. Broolord/Infestor is simply a unit combination. I'm not seeing the massive difference that makes BW an immediately superior and clearly better game. But that is a discussion outside the scope of the thread. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY Here is one big reason why BW is an immediately superior game. Most people who spew off things about the "rose tinted glasses" and try to claim that SC:BW is an old bad game must have no real understanding of SC:BW and how watered down StarCraft RTS gameplay is in SC2 compared to SC1. A typical game of SC2 is acquiring three bases and maxing a 200/200 army with one big battle to decide the game -- which isn't a very appealing eSport. The back and forth action with huge awesome fights (that don't immediately end the game, which allows for comebacks) and excitement all around the map in addition to the strategy is what made SC:BW a truly epic eSport. I'm not claiming that BW is a bad old game. I rather enjoyed playing it for several years, although I stopped before it became the national sport of South Korea. Dude, just stop talking about BW .. Like seriously. Learn to count and Learn when BW was released and learn how WCG/Korean E-Sport Scene began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft:_Brood_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starleague_(Ongamenet)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cyber_GamesAdn even back then .. the exposure was horrendous compared to what SC2 have in terms of advertisements and force-fed playing. So your argument is that these first leagues sprang forth and there was the sun, the glory of Brood War? There was zero ramp up, zero changes over those years until things settled in? No stagnation in the beginning? No small crowds? No downswings in popularity? The exposure inside of Korea was immense - it was put on TV because it had a lot of support from the general population. The game was ubiquitous in PC bangs. As for force-fed playing - I don't know of anyone that is putting guns to people's head to make them play SC2. Sospa is there, TLS is there - the tournaments are there. (The money is less, but then that was happening even when BW was the only game.) I'm not attempting to tell you BW sucked. I'm not attempting to tell you that BW was great. I'm trying to say you're premature in declaring SC2 is dead, it will never work out, etc. There's enough wringing of hands and proclamations that eSports doom is upon us, we don't need smug people congratulating themselves on how they saw it all coming because SC2 was a pale, horrible abomination that defiled the legacy of BW. (I'm sure arguments could be made, but I'm not interested.)
We do. We need them. It will show how fucked up Blizzard made this game for people who have been anticipating for a good game. Who, every early morning way before the sun is going to rise, stay up just so they can watch their games live. You claim you've played BW "several years" when in truth, is just bull but that doesn't matter.
Your argument was that SC2 only had 3 years on it's belt and that's where you are fucking wrong. SC2 was trampled on the ruin that was BW so it can achieve something yet failed in doing so because it was developed too fucking poor.
Even Blizzard admitted that they aren't patching the game for the pros. They are patching for Gold Scrubs. They also tore down the very foundation of the beginning of E-sport.
It's fucking clear how SC2 is going nowhere in Korea. And you think a couple of tournaments outside will make this game into mainstream? You need Media, Big Corporations for sponsors, and dedicated players willing to sacrifice their future and education for the chance to play on Live, Nationwide TV. And if it doesn't carry on in Korea, and let me ask again: Where the fuck do you think SC2 is going to have a shot at becoming truly mainstream??
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You just do not profane the sacred shrine of the rts by hiring the lead designer of c&c to make the sequel.
Bw gods have no mercy for such arrogance. And rightfully so in this case.
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in other news, EffOrt, sKyHigh, Shine, Fantasy, BaBy enter free-agent, negotiation starts Sept 3
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On September 02 2013 21:14 Arceus wrote:
in other news, EffOrt, sKyHigh, Shine, Fantasy, BaBy enter free-agent, negotiation starts Sept 3
what?
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EPT
