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On August 14 2013 03:31 Xorphene wrote:
There is a very very easy fix for Zerg vs Terran, give Zerg a permanent splash unit - P have Storm + Colossi, T has mines, Z has Banes which are one-charge and too easy to kill before they have an opportunity to spash anything.
Just my opinion.
You mean like infestors and ultralisks.
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On August 14 2013 03:32 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:31 Xorphene wrote:
There is a very very easy fix for Zerg vs Terran, give Zerg a permanent splash unit - P have Storm + Colossi, T has mines, Z has Banes which are one-charge and too easy to kill before they have an opportunity to spash anything.
Just my opinion. You mean like infestors and ultralisks.
i think he means something much more collosi like. Lurkers provided "guaranteed" hits over a certain area. With that kind of hard to disable splash zergs can hold areas and not get pushed into kinda dumb momentum deaths.
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If David Kim really thinks the way this game will become more interesting, both for players and spectators, is by tweaking a few balance things, he is totally disconnected of what is really going on.
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On August 14 2013 01:41 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 01:26 andrewlt wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 00:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 00:02 MasterDrone wrote:On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote:
Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled. I'll second this. One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army. Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines. Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ. It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game. I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved... That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options. Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back. But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles). I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio. Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching. What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup. Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were. Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ. Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really. Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push. The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map. While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time. God, BW was so awesome to watch...
That does sound beautiful actually. q_q
So if Zerg could hold off that one late game doom push the game he had an advantage as very late game zerg is better than very late game terran in BW?
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how about changing protoss from the ground up mister david kim
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On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count.
Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron.
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Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer.
LoL  . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this.
1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!).
2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point.
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On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron.
What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ?
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I for one can't wait to be meching and have 3/3 air units in time for the oppositions air switch... It will be glorious.
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On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote:Show nested quote + Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point.
I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say:
Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate.
On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ?
Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it
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On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ?
Split map with tons of spores. Corruptors and viper.
And a good amount of SH. Actually, it was like a ZvP split map with the protoss doing sky. Same strat.
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On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it
Ah I see, I should have known when the guy said "it's unbelievably boring" ^^
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On August 14 2013 04:01 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it Ah I see, I should have known when the guy said "it's unbelievably boring" ^^
It was fun to watch for a moment because everything explosed everywhere, tons of tanks crushing tons of locusts, PF firing Yamato etc. It was really noisy but after 50min it became boring as hell yeah.
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The question I have to making mech better is...
Why the FUCK is the tempest only 4 supply?
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On August 14 2013 04:01 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it Ah I see, I should have known when the guy said "it's unbelievably boring" ^^
It's ridiculous that that kind of shit is even in the game. deathball and this shit are what make sc2 sometimes such a frustrating game, it's a very good thing that you hardly ever see this in Korea.
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On August 14 2013 03:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 01:41 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 01:26 andrewlt wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 00:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 00:02 MasterDrone wrote:On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote:
Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled. I'll second this. One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army. Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines. Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ. It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game. I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved... That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options. Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back. But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles). I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio. Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching. What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup. Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were. Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ. Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really. Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push. The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map. While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time. God, BW was so awesome to watch... That does sound beautiful actually. q_q So if Zerg could hold off that one late game doom push the game he had an advantage as very late game zerg is better than very late game terran in BW?
It wasn't as simple as holding off one push.
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I'd rather have them increase the vision of overseers than their speed. BW had that upgrade! Not that I got it all the time...
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On August 14 2013 03:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 01:41 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 01:26 andrewlt wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 00:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 00:02 MasterDrone wrote:On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote:
Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled. I'll second this. One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army. Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines. Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ. It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game. I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved... That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options. Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back. But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles). I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio. Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching. What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup. Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were. Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ. Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really. Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push. The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map. While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time. God, BW was so awesome to watch... That does sound beautiful actually. q_q So if Zerg could hold off that one late game doom push the game he had an advantage as very late game zerg is better than very late game terran in BW?
Yes and no, it wasn't exactly one late-game doom push, it was one continuous attack from the terran all game long, but not like we're currently seeing in SC2, there were huge battles over ramps in the middle of the map because mutas could pick away at M&M balls, thinning the edges, lurkers were anywhere and everywhere, so terran had to be very mindful of when/where to chase mutas and when not to. So you would wage war across the whole map, and the battle would move back and forth as either side gained reinforcements and/or lost their army lead, just that the Terran army gets stronger and stronger while the Zerg is trying to slow down the push and buy time for T3 to come out (when he gets a huge jump in power).
In BW, Siege Tanks were the end-all-be-all for Terran, and that's really what everything involving Terran boiled down to, the more tanks Terran has on the field, the more powerful he is (kinda how marines are in SC2, only it was more strategic IMO), So endgame wasn't a gimme for Zerg, but Dark Swarm/Ultra/ling was VERY strong against the marine/medic core that Terran had been using up until that point, Terran would have to manage a full transition to mech (even more siege tanks, replace the M&Ms with goliaths, vultures, and spider mines) if they wanted to keep going well beyond that, or add firebats as a stop-gap if they were going to try to force an end to the game.
I really liked the feel of Terran in BW a lot more than Terran in SC2, Siege Tanks were OP as fuck in siege mode (and really sucked in tank mode), but they were also immobile, so the big struggle for Terran was getting sieged up in the right place, if you're sieged in the middle of the map, nobody cares. Zerg would combat the OP siege tank with Dark Swarm/Ultra/Ling, Protoss would combat it with bulldog drops (speed shuttles with speed zealots inside) and Dragoons coming in from the edges once the tanks were cross-firing on each other, and Terran would counter with Tanks of their own and dropping goliaths on top of the enemy tanks to cause cross-fire. The Siege Tank truly defined the Terran race in that game and players were made and broken simply on how effective they were at getting sieged up in a good spot.
If you want to see some good BW games, just watch the first few Day[9] episodes (he also gives you some great analysis of what's going on). You can see how different the whole game played in just a few matches.
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Meh, I wish they'd leave the game alone. The Overseer change is the only one I can perhaps agree with.
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On August 14 2013 03:42 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:32 MstrJinbo wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Xorphene wrote:
There is a very very easy fix for Zerg vs Terran, give Zerg a permanent splash unit - P have Storm + Colossi, T has mines, Z has Banes which are one-charge and too easy to kill before they have an opportunity to spash anything.
Just my opinion. You mean like infestors and ultralisks. i think he means something much more collosi like. Lurkers provided "guaranteed" hits over a certain area. With that kind of hard to disable splash zergs can hold areas and not get pushed into kinda dumb momentum deaths.
IIRC Lurker ~= Tank so well you literally had to push them back with Tanks because little else was good enough XD
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EPT
