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On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL  . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it
And hope the terran doesn't make ghosts
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Not a dramatic buff but I'll go with it...
Vipers really need this because I paid for this 10000000 minerals and gas (exaggerated [a bit]), so either they get full NRG (energy) from the start or they get reduced building time... eZ Pz
As for the Overseer movement, yah, it was easy to miscontrol when they are on the opposite side of the definition of "mobile", you can so easily run into mines, thinking you have detection when actually it is half of the map behind...
Maybe a bit imbalanced for Zerg scouting early/mid game, since they are so fast, you maybe won't necessarily have to sac them to scout, basically a free scout...
As for the feedback on the vipers go, I herd someone say that zergs should stack vipers and overseers together (like mutas) so it's harder for protoss to feedback
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On August 14 2013 03:47 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 01:41 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 01:26 andrewlt wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 00:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 00:02 MasterDrone wrote:On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote:
Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled. I'll second this. One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army. Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines. Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ. It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game. I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved... That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options. Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back. But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles). I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio. Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching. What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup. Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were. Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ. Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really. Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push. The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map. While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time. God, BW was so awesome to watch... That does sound beautiful actually. q_q So if Zerg could hold off that one late game doom push the game he had an advantage as very late game zerg is better than very late game terran in BW?
No. The terran could switch to mech. Dark swarm, the BW equivalent to blinding cloud, disables missile units from hitting its area of effect. However, it doesn't prevent the splash damage of siege tanks from wrecking zerglings. Spider mines and siege tanks were pretty good against zerglings/ultralisks. It's a bit map dependent but during the BW metagame in the end, mech usually had the advantage versus that late game zerg army. Eventually, Soulkey and Zero popularized using mass queens to counter mech. However, if the zerg builds too many queens, the terran can switch back to bio.
Anyway, the point of that tangent we had was that zerg had options in BW to force the terran to either add siege tanks to his army or tech up to science vessels (BW raven equivalent). Bio is just way too effective in SC2 currently against almost all compositions.
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On August 14 2013 04:20 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it And hope the terran doesn't make ghosts
You mean for nukes right? I don't see Ghosts doing anything else useful in that situation...and even then, can't you just abduct them?
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On August 14 2013 04:28 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 04:20 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it And hope the terran doesn't make ghosts You mean for nukes right? I don't see Ghosts doing anything else useful in that situation...and even then, can't you just abduct them?
Snipe.
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On August 14 2013 04:08 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 03:47 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 01:41 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 01:26 andrewlt wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Big J wrote:On August 14 2013 00:24 Jermstuddog wrote:On August 14 2013 00:02 MasterDrone wrote:On August 13 2013 20:45 PopoChampion wrote:
Coming from a high masters player on KR, I feel like the overseer change is good but the main problems of ZvT are not the detection of the widow mines but rather how strong they are in the late game when the bio is strong enough to kill all the lings you send in as bait to set off the mines before the mines are set off. Due to this, the mines are always in the fight and with how many you can make off 4 base, they will do huge damage to your army. Splitting is helpful but the terran should win the fight if they're not in a terrible position against ling bane muta. If they're going ultras the widow mines do so much damage to them, making them easy targets for the bio. The only time you have a decent chance is when you have infestor ultra, which is where it comes down to control, but I truly feel like it's up to the terran to screw up and get a huge chunk of his army fungalled. I'll second this. One thing to add is: MMMM have range attack. That's why Terran splitting works. In contrast, lings & bane needs to stay together so they can reach enemy units to cause damage. Splitting them as a bait will get killed & failed immediately when Terran has 2-2 and a decent amount of army. Both of you are completely ignoring the fact that 4 base T is not the issue, it's 3 base T. I don't really know why Blizzard is going with viper and overseer buffs, I don't see how it really helps, but the problem is that 3 base T can just rally endless MMMM to the most convenient Zerg base WHILE TAKING THEIR 4th, and Zerg can't do anything about it. Attacking into mines is guaranteed to cost you pretty much all your ground army, and while you're trying to rebuild your lings and blings, Terran ALREADY has 20+ marines walking toward the same base with 14+ spawning every 30 seconds, and that's not even counting mines. Zerg has lacked a meaningful, cost-effective counter to the marine since the release of the game, and with the new cheap and effective mine, it makes the marine problem even worse.That's the current problem I see in top-level TvZ. It seems like they're trying to force Zerg into using Vipers to bridge the gap, but I don't see how. Considering that nothing in that whole army is worth abducting, how fast Marines move (out of blinding cloud), the fact that blinding cloud doesn't even affect mines, I don't know how that's supposed to help. Not to mention the huge gas cost, the resource that Zerg is constantly lacking at that point in the game. I don't know WTF they're thinking. All I can say is I hope DK knows something we don't about the unit interactions involved... That's not true. If you count WoL beta, Zerg had roaches which were designed to counter marines and force marauders/tanks/air units instead. But they got nerfed because Protoss couldn't deal with them. (I wish they had stuck with 2armor roaches and had nerfed their HP instead, so that they would still be useful against marines) And then in early 2011, Fungal got changed a few times, and suddenly you could shut down pure marine play in the midgame without going melee upgrades+banelings everygame. And ultras have always been quite good against marines. So Zerg had options. Now in HotS, fungal got nerfed and the ultralisk buffed instead... which now means that zerg has one (really powerful: ultralisk) and a half (banelings; because they are a very wacky way to trade with marines) counters to marines - both on the melee upgrade path. Which has extinct all the midgame strategies (ling/infestor, roach into infestor, roach/hydra into infestors) that were blooming in WoL and that weren't ling/bling. It's sad because there was a good dynamic in TvZ: Terrans going marine/tank, or bio or mech in the midgame, zerg having a lot of styles against it. And when the marine numbers got high, Zerg could transition into infestors and Terrans into more tanks (2-3factory transitions) against them. It's just that then the game flipped, because Infestor/Broodlord was too good against tank/viking and any form of Terran airtransition basically unreachable (unless it was a shit map or Terran had a big advantage). Which meant Zergs had a 5min window to win or cripple a Terran that had to rely on tanks to keep infestors back. But from their comments, I'd say that blizzard has realized this "problem" (it's not a balance problem, but it means that zergs can only tech in one way if they want to play a macrogame). That's why they try to push the viper, as the viper is a unit that you can transition into from any composition as zerg. And a useful Viper against bioterran would give roach and roach/hydra based play a way to transition into a useful lategame, without falling behind because of transitioning into unupgraded units like Ultralisks or Broodlords. The question is, how to change the viper so that it works against bioterran (and isn't broken against other races/playstyles). I'm not sure how these would help. The problem is, your supposed counters to bio counter siege tanks and mech harder than they counter bio. Ultralisks counter marines but marauders do a good job against them. Blinding cloud and abduct are more powerful against siege tanks than they are against bio. Let's go back to BW TvZ. The lurker is able to counter marines but is vulnerable to spider mines. It is outranged by siege tanks, even in tank mode. The defiler's dark swarm punishes ranged units but the siege tank's splash damage still works against units under the cloud. In order for a terran to counter lurkers and defilers, they have to wait until science vessels come out and irradiate to finish researching. What is missing in the zerg arsenal in SC2 is a counter to bio that forces the terran to tech up to counter it. By tech up, I don't mean switching some marines to marauders or going 3/3. Ravens come out earlier than science vessels but don't have anything as powerful as irradiate against zerg. Roaches and ultralisks can be countered just by switching some marines to marauders. Brood lords in sufficient quantities force the terran to supplement their bio force with vikings but ultimately does little to change the dynamic of the matchup. Ahh, the BW comparison. I love the BW comparison because 90% of the people here have no idea how awesome BW matches were. Let's give a little example of oldskool TvZ. Terran would defensively take his natural while Zerg went up to 3 base, there may or may not be a bunker rush involved, but these were easily held off with 1-3 sunken colonies (spine crawlers) so no biggie, just keeping Zerg honest really. Once Terran has 3 barracks, he begins pumping out marines and medics while Zerg has rushed for his spire. Turrets were very cheap, but not incredibly effective, this means that 2-3 SCVs were running all over the Terran base building a ring of turrets while the M&Ms pushed out on the map. With no banelings, Zerglings died instantly, but Mutas could abuse their range and speed much better in BW, so marines were constantly getting picked off while they moved across the map. If things work well for the Zerg, he pops out 2 Lurkers RIGHT as the Terran is approaching his 3rd, this holds off the push. The Terran would usually back up, make a few dropships, and go into 7marine, 1medic or just 8 marine drops around the map, dodging the muta swarm, and adding tanks and Science Vessels to his army. Meanwhile, Zerg put scourge in strategic locations to catch the drops, moves his lurkers around so Terran doesn't know where they're at, and tries to poke in to the Terrans base with his muta swarm. Irradiate (a science vessel ability) was a 1-shot kill to Lurkers, while 2 scourge would kill a science vessel, of course, marines can kill the scourge, and the lurkers kill marines, so you have these constant micro wars across the middle of the map while drop ships and mutas are flying all around the edges. This is about the time Zerg would hit hive. Meanwhile, the Terran is finishing up 3/3 and his marine/medic/tank/sci vessel army is hitting critical mass. Terran has 1 last major push to go before defilerss and ultralisks hit the field. This is where the majority of pro games would end, otherwise, Zerg gets their major T3 units and rampages across the map. While this may sound somewhat similar to SC2, it was completely different in the sense that the fight didn't start at the edge of Zergs base, it started as soon as Terrans marines left HIS base, micro wars were constant and both sides had tricks to decimate the other side, if terrans army ever got wiped out, the game was basically over, while Zerg couldn't really wipe the army out, but it was REALLY hard for terran to push forward. Even the OP defiler/ultra/ling combo was awesome to watch. Dark Swarms would puff up everywhere and ultras, lings, and whatever lurkers Z had left over would rush forward. Terran would usually start including Firebats at this point to try to hold off the ultras, and they were decent, but it was a losing fight over time. God, BW was so awesome to watch... That does sound beautiful actually. q_q So if Zerg could hold off that one late game doom push the game he had an advantage as very late game zerg is better than very late game terran in BW? It wasn't as simple as holding off one push.
It wasn't even as he described. Zerg rarely went up to three base quick, this was only vs Protoss. Typical vs Terran was either 2 hatch muta or 3 hatch muta, with the 3rd hatch if the Zerg chose to go so being in the main. Zerg would have exactly 8 lings with speed and two sunken colonies when the Terran pushed out if it was going standard. Terran would push out with exactly two medics. Terran pushed out for the sole purpose of establishing a small amount of map presence and forcing the Zerg to build two sunken colonies, spending extra minerals. Zerg would sometimes build extra speedlings and try to flank from both sides the Marine/Medic squad that came out. However, some Terrans would build firebats instead of only marines, which would make this speedling play incredibly risky and result in having to build sunkens regardless, meaning less drones. Assuming things went standard, Zerg would have exactly 35 supply in a 3hatch scenario when the spire popped, in which Zerg would also have just had the third larvae pop from all 3 hatches, allowing exactly 9 mutas to be built. They'd eventually go up to 11 and force the Terran back into his base.
Drops were not a constant threat like you mentioned at this point in the game. Terran would then build up a MM force and defend with turrets while Zerg was taking the third. Two hydras would be put on the ramp, morphed into lurkers of the third, with the eggs preventing the terran from moving up the ramp and bum rushing it. Then, the lurkers would finish and burrow at the top of the ramp, making it nigh impossible for Terran to push up. What made Flash so distinguished from other Terran players was that his control was impeccable, he would move out with only 2/3 of 3/4 of the standard bio force at the time, and rely purely on control/micro to not get picked off by the mutas. This allowed him to pressure the third sooner, making Zergs drone up less in response and have a worse off economy.
Zerg would then attempt to contain Terran with lurkers. Terran could not push Zerg without a science vessel, and there was micro engagements (term used was leapfrogging) of tanks pushing forward to shoot lurkers, with the lurkers unburrowing and reburrowing just out of range. Constant micro engagements. Zerg could either stay on lurker/ling for a long time and try to go for a flank if Terran moved out too soon, Terran needed to actively scout the hive timing. Typically if Zerg did not go excessive lurker/ling, Terran would move out wiht 3 tanks 1 science vessel and a ton of MM. Sniping the vessel was a huge deal if Zerg could pull it off. If Terran could move across the map directly to Zerg, he would get stomped, so Zerg simply leapfrogged lurkers delaying as long as possible. Then, as he retreated to his base, Zerg would typically have 5+ sunken colonies which Terran sieged up as Zerg bought time.
The timings were on such an insanely thin wire. Savior rose to prominence for being known at holding at THE LAST SECOND. As in, the approaching Terran army would kill all the sunkens, kill like 60% of the lurkers, and AS the Terran was stimming in for a killing blow, the defilers would pop with consume ready and get a Dark Swarm off. 10 seconds later and each time he would have been killed.
At this point, Terran is taking a third and Zerg a fourth, Terran is retreating vs Zerg Dark swarms and building up a double starport fleet of mass vessels. Terran's priority is to irridiate all defilers that are available and take the Zerg on in a headon engagement. Zerg's priority is to consistently delay pushes, counter attack, etc. Zerg would have to clone scourge to kill vessels, try to get plagues off on the vessels, and now start drop play as Mutas were no longer a threat (usually dead by now). Micro engagements go on all across the map, with vessels wandering out in dangerous territory (remember there's plague, no fungal) to irridiate defilers/ultras/lurkers, while scourge try to pick off said vessels, with marines protecting the vessels. It was insane to watch the control on both sides, there's nothing comparable in SC2. Zerg would often build 1-2 mutas when a Sci Vessel cloud got plagued and use the bounce to three shot science vessels with a single attack. Terran would try to tech to mass amounts of tanks, as the splash still dealt damage, and shoot for a split map scenario which Terran would win almost every single time (Flash became also notorious for doing this ridiculously well, creating unbreakable situations). Zerg would attempt to mass expand and mine out the map and simply deny terran expansions. Cracklings vs supply depots were INSANE at how fast they took down buildings. In fact, if you haven't seen the insane damage output Zerglings wtih Adrenal had in BW, it was RIDICULOUS.
There were so many other scenarios that could play out, but the thing was, each scenario was so perfected, so exact. SC2 is just so volatile and due to the macro mechanics will never be able to achieve the exactly level of precision BW had.
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On August 14 2013 04:02 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 04:01 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:19 mothergoose729 wrote:
Just a thought about vipers vs mech upgrades in tvz....
Maybe terran can afford to go defensive mech into sky terran instead of maxing out on tanks? Abduct is ok against BCs and ravens, but its not awesome sauce. Blinding cloud is about 1000% more effective against mech on the offense. if you have spread tanks on high ground behind a planetary than blinding cloud just doesn't work very well, unless you are going to abudct and blind every single seige tank individually.
Also, sky terran has no hard counter for zerg. The hardest part of going sky terran was getting the bases and the upgrades. Upgrade problem solved now, sounds not that bad to me. It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it Ah I see, I should have known when the guy said "it's unbelievably boring" ^^ It was fun to watch for a moment because everything explosed everywhere, tons of tanks crushing tons of locusts, PF firing Yamato etc. It was really noisy but after 50min it became boring as hell yeah.
I think that game turned out more boring than it could have been because Lucifron never attempted to break the contain until he no longer could. Initially, he had the unit composition to do so (tanks with viking and mass raven support and a huge bank), but he never moved his tanks to siege the static d. The casters were practically begging him to do it but he just sat there making BCs one by one instead. But to be fair, Lucifron (and most Terrans) probably never have to play against that composition, so he was probably trying to figure it out on the fly under pressure. I'd love to see someone take-control-from-replay of that game and execute the push as Terran.
I hear that in BW, when they wanted to curb mass static defense play (think tank+missile turret+bunkers), map makers just put some non-buildable terrain down along attack paths. No nerfs needed!
Getting closer to the original topic (bio mine vs zerg), I'd love to see Day[9] or someone compare and contrast the Polt vs Jaedong series with the Scarlett vs Alive series (Scarlett won vs a similar biomine style) game by game. In particular, I'd like to know how Scarlett spent her gas all game long vs how Jaedong did. I suspect JD overmade mutas and banelings in some of the games and that slowed down his infestor/hive transition. His many baneling runbys on the scvs were probably less cost effective than the same attacks with zerglings (or a zergling/baneling mixture). I think the baneling mines were worth it though; the fewer free mules you give Terran, the better. In the neo planet S games, maybe using the banelings on the reinforcements to open up some breathing room to tech to hive would have been more worth it too.
I doubt the viper buff will make it in. Blinding cloud vs bio seems very map dependent, because Terran's tactic is to retreat over mines, which means they are running backwards out of blinding cloud all the time anyway. Therefore the best time zerg can use it is when Terran wants to attack into a base. Then put the clouds in an arc in front of the hatch 5-6 hexes away so marine/marauder has to basically move into melee range of the hatch itself if they want to fire. On maps where it only takes a few clouds to cover that attack arc, Zergs could start throwing down spores or evo chambers and a couple vipers at each base to fend off the terran, defiler style.
A stronger buff vs bio mine would be to make blinding cloud actually reduced the range on mine shots. Then ling/bane/muta would be able kill mines before they got a shot off.
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My Opinion - I do not care.
After playing SC a few years I come to comnclusion I wasted my time On game I will never have real fun with.
Why? Because as a terrran my s and A finger hurts. Because mechanic take soo mach time in that game I never come to interesting part. Strategy? what strategy? execise your S and A finger with some other addded some times and 1 2 3 4 5 fingers and you are good.
What I really want to seee from paches and expancions is a easy way to reduce mechanical part of SC.
Examples: for terran - make quied units used no resources untill they actually in production. Add options to fast priority of use of resources, like prioritice more ot less expencive. prioritice gas units first ..et. Same apply to protos.
Make building units have option to autocast - so I can say this barack produce marines as long as there resources avalible. Make me instantly possible to se how many scv's I have so I did not over/under produse them.
That apply to protos too.
For zers, make injects autocats. Make creep autocast. change creep to not have infinite range ( Quinn allways have to walk to point where creep have to be.) Make production on hatcheries have the same options to autocats/prioritise.
In short add tools for non pros to reduce time they spend on mechanics and give them more time to do fun stuff, like micro, positioning, etc.
Pros can stil use there a and s fingers.
Make scv production autocast.
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On August 14 2013 04:49 Mutineer wrote:
My Opinion - I do not care.
After playing SC a few years I come to comnclusion I wasted my time On game I will never have real fun with.
Why? Because as a terrran my s and A finger hurts. Because mechanic take soo mach time in that game I never come to interesting part. Strategy? what strategy? execise your S and A finger with some other addded some times and 1 2 3 4 5 fingers and you are good.
What I really want to seee from paches and expancions is a easy way to reduce mechanical part of SC.
Examples: for terran - make quied units used no resources untill they actually in production. Add options to fast priority of use of resources, like prioritice more ot less expencive. prioritice gas units first ..et. Same apply to protos.
Make building units have option to autocast - so I can say this barack produce marines as long as there resources avalible. Make me instantly possible to se how many scv's I have so I did not over/under produse them.
That apply to protos too.
For zers, make injects autocats. Make creep autocast. change creep to not have infinite range ( Quinn allways have to walk to point where creep have to be.) Make production on hatcheries have the same options to autocats/prioritise.
In short add tools for non pros to reduce time they spend on mechanics and give them more time to do fun stuff, like micro, positioning, etc.
Pros can stil use there a and s fingers.
Make scv production autocast.
So you don't care, yet you wrote out a long rambling post...
Hmm...
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I think its wierd how daivd kim is harping on vipers all the time but swarm host....no love.
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On August 14 2013 04:29 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 04:28 fried_rice wrote:On August 14 2013 04:20 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:On August 14 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
[quote]
It would be a boring meta. And if I know my opponent is turtling with a fairly low ammount of tanks because he's planning to go mass startports, I'd just siege him with SH's. 30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it And hope the terran doesn't make ghosts You mean for nukes right? I don't see Ghosts doing anything else useful in that situation...and even then, can't you just abduct them? Snipe.
It takes 3 snipes to kill a Viper.....thats quite a chunk of mana.
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On August 14 2013 05:07 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 04:29 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 14 2013 04:28 fried_rice wrote:On August 14 2013 04:20 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:
[quote]
30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it And hope the terran doesn't make ghosts You mean for nukes right? I don't see Ghosts doing anything else useful in that situation...and even then, can't you just abduct them? Snipe. It takes 3 snipes to kill a Viper.....thats quite a chunk of mana.
It also takes at least 3 abducts to kill a BC with a lot of spores.
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On August 14 2013 05:07 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 04:29 renaissanceMAN wrote:On August 14 2013 04:28 fried_rice wrote:On August 14 2013 04:20 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On August 14 2013 03:53 Incognoto wrote:On August 14 2013 03:49 11B wrote: Plat-Zergs already know how to clear them, also Overseer has already the upgrade. So no Zerg Buff for overseer. LoL . This is crazy talk :D!! 2 things I'd like to mention to argue this. 1. About 70% of the post (including KoreanTerran High Masters) voice some kind of opinion that WM are in fact IMBA. Imo it's not even an opinion -> it's fact (my opinion!). 2. Did you happen to watch the WCS America T vs Z games? Very lopsided. Hell, take a look at the final where Polt 4-0 Jaedong. Yep, 4-0, AND Jaedong had almost a 40-70 supply lead in every single game at some point. I think if you truly want to argue that Widow Mines are imba, then you're doing it the wrong way. Instead of saying "wm imba" you should say: Look if you're going to argue that Widow Mines aren't imbalanced, tell me which tip top Zerg can play cost-efficiently against the bio/mine composition. Show VODs and write a somewhat detailed explanation of which tactics Zerg should use other than "just bait widowmines with lings lol learn to patrol micro" since that obviously doesn't cut it. If you send a few lings at a time to detonate mine the terran will simply pick them off with marines before the mines detonate. On August 14 2013 03:50 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 03:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On August 14 2013 03:31 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 14 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On August 14 2013 00:47 mothergoose729 wrote:
[quote]
30s of theory crafting on both of our parts and the meta already got more interesting. People complain to much. If blizzard wants to risk fucking up the game a little bit to make more strategies viable I think that is an appropriate risk. People complain the game doesn't have enough strategic depth but belly ache every time blizzard tries to widen the spectrum of viable possibilities. Yeah, I love how people complain about a stale metagame, yet also complain about making the game unstable. I think a more robust game requires more options and variety. People become to invested in a single build or play style and get really bent out of shape when some balance change comes along threatening to force them to change. The sc2 community is not a bunch of people having the same opinion, some want changes, some don't. And some want X to change rather than Y. Amazing, uh ? In my case, I'd love watching more mech but the idea of turtling with tanks while attempting a fairly quick skyterran transition doesn't excite me, it sounds fragile and sounds like the typical asymmetrical balance: break the terran before he gets his flying doom army. Zergs simply don't have an answer to a max'd 3/3 skyterran army with low scv's count. Well they do, but it's unbelievably boring. Goswser showed us that at ASUS ROG against Lucifron. What did he do ? I was in holydays, couldn't watch it. Chain fungal ? Split map, 60+ spores, swarm hosts, a lot of vipers and a lot of corrupters. camp your side of the map with swarm hosts, and begin pulling cattlebruisers into spores with vipers. you can use up to 3 abducts per cattlebruiser, it's worth it And hope the terran doesn't make ghosts You mean for nukes right? I don't see Ghosts doing anything else useful in that situation...and even then, can't you just abduct them? Snipe. It takes 3 snipes to kill a Viper.....thats quite a chunk of mana.
If you've got 5-6 ghosts (which isn't that many) the mineral/gas investment is no big deal.
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Canada13389 Posts
I'm just surprised they want to make mech viable while simultaneously making bio builds better and ignoring buffs on mech units like tanks.
The tanks that did too much damage in early wol did so on small maps. And tanks are rarely seen in TvZ now because mines are simply better. They tuned down the damage of tanks because they would one shot zerglings. Now mines do the same thing and are more mobile than tanks making them work great with bio.
If they really want mech to be more viable they should try to buff the tank because it won't have any impact on bio play. Though it might make bio obsolete in tvt, we don't know until we see it happen.
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On August 14 2013 05:06 Phanekim wrote:
I think its wierd how daivd kim is harping on vipers all the time but swarm host....no love.
Probably because the viper problem is much easier to solve than the SH one. Vipers are a good support unit, just need a small push to encourage people to use them more.
Outright buffing SH would create huge problems for PvZ, and redesigning them to change their current role would be a huge undertaking for a simple balance patch.
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In BW, Siege Tanks were the end-all-be-all for Terran, and that's really what everything involving Terran boiled down to, the more tanks Terran has on the field, the more powerful he is
More tanks = more Guardians. Too easy. The end-all-be-all for Terran (vs Zerg) was Science Vessels. Comes down to Defiler vs SV micro. Had to keep those damn SV numbers down or GG. But hey, one good plague and a few Muta's = GG.
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I was never a real competitive BW player, but I don't think there was an end-all-be-all in BW...
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am i the only one that thinks an easier 3-3 is needed for zerg? toss need a twilight and thats it. terran need an armory and thats it. we need lair for 2-2 (like armory and twilight allows), then infestation pit AND hive (100seconds?) for 3-3.
please make infestation pit AND SPIRE allow hive. any zerg playing bane/ling/muta will have a fighting chance of getting to 3-3 before they die
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On August 14 2013 04:48 TiberiusAk wrote:
Getting closer to the original topic (bio mine vs zerg), I'd love to see Day[9] or someone compare and contrast the Polt vs Jaedong series with the Scarlett vs Alive series (Scarlett won vs a similar biomine style) game by game. In particular, I'd like to know how Scarlett spent her gas all game long vs how Jaedong did. I suspect JD overmade mutas and banelings in some of the games and that slowed down his infestor/hive transition. His many baneling runbys on the scvs were probably less cost effective than the same attacks with zerglings (or a zergling/baneling mixture). I think the baneling mines were worth it though; the fewer free mules you give Terran, the better. In the neo planet S games, maybe using the banelings on the reinforcements to open up some breathing room to tech to hive would have been more worth it too.
I think you will be hardpressed comparing those games from the simple fact that Jaedong played 4different builds in 4games as far as I remember.
And - though I have only seen game2 of Scarlett vs aLive - aLive played completely different in that game than Polt. Polt played an aggressive paradepush style most of the games starting ~12mins, while aLive was not pushing at all until 18mins, which means that Scarlett did not have to spend gas on banelings and had 3-3 and adrenaling glands researching and an ultralisk cavern finishing by the end of that first push.
Even more, though this is faster than you will see most zergs getting this, Jaedong got his Hivetech even earlier as far as I remember in g2 on Newkirk (because he skipped mutas).
Summarizing, I believe that aLive just played differently than Polt (or what most Topterrans do: paradepush at 12' ) which allowed her to tech quite a bit faster. And Scarlett did not make the mistake to try and finish the game with ultras against an opponent in full force at home, but just transitioned into BL/Infestor when aLive was still not really trying to push in the lategame.
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EPT
